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On June 19 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
i laff at this cause imo desert oasis was the best map for zvt
u cant play mech turtle cause of all the open areas and huge distances to everywhere and u cant make good timing pushes cause of the long distances
i think its safe to say all the maps r insanely imbalanced, cmon here they r blizzard maps. do u really expect the first maps made to be good at all?
mech works just like mech in sc1, u kill tons of units compared to the unit cost, short distances and small areas favors mech play, destination, stepps of war
u cant play bio in tvz, so ur basically just talking about bio mech which is too little to talk about balance for imo
Artosis explains imbalance on top level play so unless your active on high pro level you wont notice theese imbalances in your games.
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Desert Oasis is actually one of my favourite maps, ESPECIALLY vs Zerg, and I am protoss player. I do think your arguments are very zerg biased and dont take everything into account. But hey what do I know - im a casual player
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On June 20 2010 03:14 LokPest wrote:
Artosis explains imbalance on top level play so unless your active on high pro level you wont notice theese imbalances in your games.
Do you know who Morrow is? He would notice these things bigtime.
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On June 20 2010 03:14 LokPest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
i laff at this cause imo desert oasis was the best map for zvt
u cant play mech turtle cause of all the open areas and huge distances to everywhere and u cant make good timing pushes cause of the long distances
i think its safe to say all the maps r insanely imbalanced, cmon here they r blizzard maps. do u really expect the first maps made to be good at all?
mech works just like mech in sc1, u kill tons of units compared to the unit cost, short distances and small areas favors mech play, destination, stepps of war
u cant play bio in tvz, so ur basically just talking about bio mech which is too little to talk about balance for imo Artosis explains imbalance on top level play so unless your active on high pro level you wont notice theese imbalances in your games.
ok lets then ignore 80-90% of oppinions....
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On June 20 2010 03:13 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +I think most of these players are not playing for the map and playing for the MU why should they bend their play to the map? you can notice from several turnaments that idra forces his strategy to work via overlord drops and flanking rather than abandone his entire gameplan, its nothing new. Show nested quote +Also with Desert Oasis, I have to disagree on the point of defending three bases. It's hard for EVERY race to defend their third base on that map. Usually I just cannon up the island and take that as my third, as going to the gold or the third regular mineral patch on the opposite side of the main usually means you're leaving one of your bases vulnerable. where is the incentive to take a third against one base / two base zerg? its not like they are going to go sens one base muta and suddenly take 2 bases.
Because their play is not working on a certain map. I'm not asking for Artosis and Idra and other Zergs to just go all in on a 6 pool on Kulas or anything. I'm asking for him to perhaps try expanding to the cliff and probably reordering the way he does something to fit that map. If the expansion on Kulas is hard to defend, why not go to the other expansion. It'll mean a later expansion, but you probably won't be as harassed. I've never done it, but it seems like a reasonable solution to look into.
What are you on about? I said it's hard for all races to defend their third on DO, because the third base is far from your second. Just as your second is far from your main. I'm not saying we should scout the Zerg's one base play and take a second and third base. I'm saying that when the game gets to a point where you need a third, it's hard to defend that third base.
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I am just a little noob but why would you disregard mech builds when that is what every one does?
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On June 20 2010 02:53 comis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 01:51 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:39 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:30 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:23 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:14 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:11 comis wrote:On June 19 2010 22:08 raph wrote:
i agree with kulas, but on DO, terran actually feels much harder if the game goes beyond 2 base.
in the 2 base game im generally able to get 2-3 tanks + 12-15 marines and push to my nat, easy as pie. you bunk up and siege behind the bunkers and then just turret your main and leave a few scattered tanks within to help defend on doom drops. i can push and contain on 2 base and fight effectively. but if the game runs long into a 3+ base game for terran, the distances even on the closest blue mineral patch for an immobile meching terran against heavy muta + drops makes it incredibly hard on me to be able to defend my main and 3rd because of the obscure layout and distance You only need 2 bases to max out a mech army. You then A-move into the Zerg base. If he tries to fight you, he loses. If he tries to base trade you, he has a chance but still most likely loses. 1st of all thats not true at all secondly this is RACE BALANCE, not MAP BALANCE. desert is the worst fucking map imaginable to sit on 2base macro and attack and finish zerg. WORST MAP ok? this is what im talking about we cant have this discussion as long as ppl confuse the meanings of this and as long as the mu is t>z on majority of the maps its just a matter of race balance to begin with Zerg has one option against a competent mech T. End the game early with a muta focused build. That's on any map, including DO. If you want to break it into multiple discussing, I don't care, but that's what mech has done to the matchup and that HAS to be considered when discussing balance on ANY map. thats like the worst way ever to play vs mech. how far did u get in ur tournaments lol, dont speak if u dont know anything ur just wasting my time reading mech is like pvt in sc1 without carriers and thats best way i can explain to u. ur goal is to break down the terran and not let him half the map while the meching player can decide to make some mech timing attack or simply turtle and slowly take half the map. thats how u win vs mech terran, not by making mutalisks rofl You're right ZvT is exactly like PvT in BW, wait except the fact that map control has absolutely no importance in a game where NOTHING a Z makes can beat a 200/200 T mech army. The only way to beat mech is to cripple/kill him early with a fast muta/ling/baneling build. Show me 1 example where this is not the case (and don't give me some stupid replay where Z when burrowed roaches into an afk T or something, that's not an actual counter, just cheese that works on bad T's). maybe u didnt play bw but 200 psi mech owned toss too lol. thats why u gotta overpower terran before he gets too strong. sc1 is basically revolved around recalls and frontal attacks while terran just has to hold on because he wins if he splits the map (talking about 2 player maps). thats where carriers come in and zerg has no carrier most common way i can think of is to take about 3-4 base as zerg get mapcontrol then make a huge fucking army and try break terran down with nyduses drops and frontal attacks. just like sc1 on destination tvz or tvp on 2 player maps without carrier. ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself Protoss could beat 200 supply T mech. It was just hard. Not next to impossible like ZvT mech. You say the way to beat T in ZvT is to "overpower terran before he gets too strong". That's exactly what I'm saying. The only way to beat T mech is to cripple/kill him early with a muta-focused build (you can try all ground if you want to lose). You can throw in cheesy nydus or whatever else you want but if you let T get to 200/200 your chances of winning drop through the floor. We're saying essentially the same thing, you're just doing it in broken english and littered with personal insults.
were not at all saying the same thing
ur saying early game cheese and im saying play strong and straight up. im not talking about 1base nydus here im just saying zerg will reach high armies earlier than a meching terran and he can use that advantage to expand more or potentially break terran down. drop on different locations or nydus was just a suggestion to go around terrans army and use his mobility to his weakness
On June 20 2010 03:14 LokPest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
i laff at this cause imo desert oasis was the best map for zvt
u cant play mech turtle cause of all the open areas and huge distances to everywhere and u cant make good timing pushes cause of the long distances
i think its safe to say all the maps r insanely imbalanced, cmon here they r blizzard maps. do u really expect the first maps made to be good at all?
mech works just like mech in sc1, u kill tons of units compared to the unit cost, short distances and small areas favors mech play, destination, stepps of war
u cant play bio in tvz, so ur basically just talking about bio mech which is too little to talk about balance for imo Artosis explains imbalance on top level play so unless your active on high pro level you wont notice theese imbalances in your games.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/rankings/7056
good enough for u? its funny how u think artosis is even higher level than me. get your head out of ur ass and think about what u say
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I've only played SC since SC2 came out, and I've been on this site for even less time.
The amount of people coming in here acting like they have any inkling of what is balanced and not in top level play is hilarious.
The amount of people skimming through posts until they find something they can take offensive to is alarming.
Fanboys coming in here telling Morrow "Yo bro, this is for the big boys. Don't worry about it"
I've been here for like 2 months, and I've seen Morrow a bunch of times between the casts/tourneys/interviews Ive watched. I know I have no clue what's balanced yet. How are you people going to act like you do with even less knowledge of high tier play than I gained in 60 days.
This site is nuts.
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I think there should be about two neutral maps in a given map pool (lets say Meta and LT are neutral, although LT is a bit T favored TvZ, but not too too bad) and then maps that fluctuate in who they favor or don't favor. A big part of clan wars (coming from a wc3 perspective) was sort of a mind game between managers.
I think the idea of having maps that *slightly* favor one race over another are perfectly acceptable. They add a lot of strategy and mind games to clan wars at the very least. Also, differently sized/shaped/structured maps often create new strategies on their own. I think Artosis is jumping the gun a bit personally, Id like to see how things shake out a bit more.
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On June 20 2010 03:28 Joseki wrote:
I think there should be about two neutral maps in a given map pool (lets say Meta and LT are neutral, although LT is a bit T favored TvZ, but not too too bad) and then maps that fluctuate in who they favor or don't favor. A big part of clan wars (coming from a wc3 perspective) was sort of a mind game between managers.
I think the idea of having maps that *slightly* favor one race over another are perfectly acceptable. They add a lot of strategy and mind games to clan wars at the very least. Also, differently sized/shaped/structured maps often create new strategies on their own. I think Artosis is jumping the gun a bit personally, Id like to see how things shake out a bit more.
This would work something like irl sports home team advantage lol. If you could win on your opponents home turf you gained a huge lead.
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Well even some of the higher level players are coming in here and disagreeing. It's obviously not as black and white as what the OP is making it out to be, at least in some cases.
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Kulas is such a fun map. It's not really well balanced for TvZ, but TvP and PvZ are pretty good on the map. I don't think it's really P-favored at all in PvZ. The map makes warp-gate all-ins more easy to pull off, and maybe two-gate pressure is better, but it's sort of hard to take a second base as Protoss. You can't really do the typical "fast expand" on the map very easily, since speedlings backstabs are so deadly.
Desert Oasis is really zerg-favored, if zerg ever gets up and running--which is hard to do with thor drops, viking harass, bunkers under your cliff, void rays, and warp gate all-ins. I know Artosis uses Nydus worms on the map, so he knows about it, but the map is the nydus worm's paradise.
Anyhow, I'm sort of puzzled why DO is on the "worst of the worst" for zerg, but Steppes is not. I guess I'll find out in part 2.
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On June 19 2010 22:58 OneFierceZealot wrote:
blizzard maps are soo much better than most of the iccup crap that gets churned out. every single iccup map is the same. each starting base has an expo or two perfectly defendable by 1 easy choke/ramp. then add a little python or decal in the middle and bingo another sick map. seriously all iccup maps are macro-fuck-orientated and end up playing the same every game.
i think early in the beta many were complaining that blizzards sc2 maps were "made too well." ......................
Is this guy serious? I know Diamond already addressed it, but Jesus thanks for the good laugh.
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts about these maps. I can't stand kulas or incineration zone. The only decent maps while playing Z seem to be blistering sands, LT, metalopolis and scrap station. I suppose steppes of war is also ok since you have an open area in the middle, but the rush distance is ridiculously short. Even scrap station can be ridiculous if you need to defend 4gate. I also really hate how spawning close on LT or metalopolis pretty much makes it impossible to FE against a good protoss.
I'm not sure I agree with desert oasis being super terran favored. The long distance between main and nat certainly doesn't help, but speedlings & infestors with NP can pretty easily shut down thor & hellion garbage as well as MM drops, and then you can just abuse nydus and keep him scrambling to get a third while you macro off 3-4 bases. Keeping an infestor or two in your main when hes threatening drops will completely shit on him. I have had numerous games where they will attempt to drop me, I fungal 3-4 dropships full of units where they can't unload, kill them, and its GG. Infestors in general seem to be the best answer to 1:1:1 harassment.
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This site is nuts probably because of sc2 beta that this site has degraded somewhat in quality posters who post at a regular pace.
I've never done it, but it seems like a reasonable solution to look into.
yea it does, i have never tried that either.
What are you on about? I said it's hard for all races to defend their third on DO, because the third base is far from your second. Just as your second is far from your main. I'm not saying we should scout the Zerg's one base play and take a second and third base. I'm saying that when the game gets to a point where you need a third, it's hard to defend that third base.
as far as i am concerned the pace of the game is usually decided before that time, i shouldnt have commented on it but zerg going for hydra roach are usually the ones trying to defend a third while terran abuses the cliffs and ledges with the countless opportunities to harass that they have to their disposal xD.
TLO style ling play looks and feels awesome on that map but to field that up as a reply to state that zerg is mobile and good when not on creep is just wrong. Outside Speedlings, infestor and mutalisk there is almost nothing mobile with Hydra / roach when they are off creep.
thats probably why Artosis and idra feel the map working against them. Not that i disagree, the map is from a balance pov bad.
minor edit: this is a great example Artosis and Idra both try to force their styles to work on all maps, while not optimal it should not be failing as badly as it currently does.
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I retract my statement... BTW Morrow isn't some newb so the guys acting as if need to check themselves. It's funny how people just started playing SC2 and never touched SC:BW and come here thinking they know anything about everything. This community is old school bro's, it wasn't created yesterday.
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I agreed with everyone pretty much except for the Dessert Oasis I just don't see your points tbh but otherwise good article 
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On June 20 2010 03:27 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 02:53 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:51 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:39 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:30 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:23 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:14 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:11 comis wrote:On June 19 2010 22:08 raph wrote:
i agree with kulas, but on DO, terran actually feels much harder if the game goes beyond 2 base.
in the 2 base game im generally able to get 2-3 tanks + 12-15 marines and push to my nat, easy as pie. you bunk up and siege behind the bunkers and then just turret your main and leave a few scattered tanks within to help defend on doom drops. i can push and contain on 2 base and fight effectively. but if the game runs long into a 3+ base game for terran, the distances even on the closest blue mineral patch for an immobile meching terran against heavy muta + drops makes it incredibly hard on me to be able to defend my main and 3rd because of the obscure layout and distance You only need 2 bases to max out a mech army. You then A-move into the Zerg base. If he tries to fight you, he loses. If he tries to base trade you, he has a chance but still most likely loses. 1st of all thats not true at all secondly this is RACE BALANCE, not MAP BALANCE. desert is the worst fucking map imaginable to sit on 2base macro and attack and finish zerg. WORST MAP ok? this is what im talking about we cant have this discussion as long as ppl confuse the meanings of this and as long as the mu is t>z on majority of the maps its just a matter of race balance to begin with Zerg has one option against a competent mech T. End the game early with a muta focused build. That's on any map, including DO. If you want to break it into multiple discussing, I don't care, but that's what mech has done to the matchup and that HAS to be considered when discussing balance on ANY map. thats like the worst way ever to play vs mech. how far did u get in ur tournaments lol, dont speak if u dont know anything ur just wasting my time reading mech is like pvt in sc1 without carriers and thats best way i can explain to u. ur goal is to break down the terran and not let him half the map while the meching player can decide to make some mech timing attack or simply turtle and slowly take half the map. thats how u win vs mech terran, not by making mutalisks rofl You're right ZvT is exactly like PvT in BW, wait except the fact that map control has absolutely no importance in a game where NOTHING a Z makes can beat a 200/200 T mech army. The only way to beat mech is to cripple/kill him early with a fast muta/ling/baneling build. Show me 1 example where this is not the case (and don't give me some stupid replay where Z when burrowed roaches into an afk T or something, that's not an actual counter, just cheese that works on bad T's). maybe u didnt play bw but 200 psi mech owned toss too lol. thats why u gotta overpower terran before he gets too strong. sc1 is basically revolved around recalls and frontal attacks while terran just has to hold on because he wins if he splits the map (talking about 2 player maps). thats where carriers come in and zerg has no carrier most common way i can think of is to take about 3-4 base as zerg get mapcontrol then make a huge fucking army and try break terran down with nyduses drops and frontal attacks. just like sc1 on destination tvz or tvp on 2 player maps without carrier. ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself Protoss could beat 200 supply T mech. It was just hard. Not next to impossible like ZvT mech. You say the way to beat T in ZvT is to "overpower terran before he gets too strong". That's exactly what I'm saying. The only way to beat T mech is to cripple/kill him early with a muta-focused build (you can try all ground if you want to lose). You can throw in cheesy nydus or whatever else you want but if you let T get to 200/200 your chances of winning drop through the floor. We're saying essentially the same thing, you're just doing it in broken english and littered with personal insults. were not at all saying the same thing ur saying early game cheese and im saying play strong and straight up. im not talking about 1base nydus here im just saying zerg will reach high armies earlier than a meching terran and he can use that advantage to expand more or potentially break terran down. drop on different locations or nydus was just a suggestion to go around terrans army and use his mobility to his weakness
Since when is a "muta-focused build" early game cheese? Muta/ling/bling is staple ZvT.
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Well, I, for one, believe that Idra should be involved in all balance decisions...
I mean, c'mon, he's not the type of player to rage and overreact if he loses to something, he's super levelheaded and able to clearly see the issues and make informed decisions.
On a more serious note, I believe the fact that we are seeing several top tier players disagree about balance issues on maps means that they are likely more balanced than we realize.
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On June 20 2010 04:04 comis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 03:27 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 02:53 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:51 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:39 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:30 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:23 comis wrote:On June 20 2010 01:14 MorroW wrote:On June 20 2010 01:11 comis wrote:On June 19 2010 22:08 raph wrote:
i agree with kulas, but on DO, terran actually feels much harder if the game goes beyond 2 base.
in the 2 base game im generally able to get 2-3 tanks + 12-15 marines and push to my nat, easy as pie. you bunk up and siege behind the bunkers and then just turret your main and leave a few scattered tanks within to help defend on doom drops. i can push and contain on 2 base and fight effectively. but if the game runs long into a 3+ base game for terran, the distances even on the closest blue mineral patch for an immobile meching terran against heavy muta + drops makes it incredibly hard on me to be able to defend my main and 3rd because of the obscure layout and distance You only need 2 bases to max out a mech army. You then A-move into the Zerg base. If he tries to fight you, he loses. If he tries to base trade you, he has a chance but still most likely loses. 1st of all thats not true at all secondly this is RACE BALANCE, not MAP BALANCE. desert is the worst fucking map imaginable to sit on 2base macro and attack and finish zerg. WORST MAP ok? this is what im talking about we cant have this discussion as long as ppl confuse the meanings of this and as long as the mu is t>z on majority of the maps its just a matter of race balance to begin with Zerg has one option against a competent mech T. End the game early with a muta focused build. That's on any map, including DO. If you want to break it into multiple discussing, I don't care, but that's what mech has done to the matchup and that HAS to be considered when discussing balance on ANY map. thats like the worst way ever to play vs mech. how far did u get in ur tournaments lol, dont speak if u dont know anything ur just wasting my time reading mech is like pvt in sc1 without carriers and thats best way i can explain to u. ur goal is to break down the terran and not let him half the map while the meching player can decide to make some mech timing attack or simply turtle and slowly take half the map. thats how u win vs mech terran, not by making mutalisks rofl You're right ZvT is exactly like PvT in BW, wait except the fact that map control has absolutely no importance in a game where NOTHING a Z makes can beat a 200/200 T mech army. The only way to beat mech is to cripple/kill him early with a fast muta/ling/baneling build. Show me 1 example where this is not the case (and don't give me some stupid replay where Z when burrowed roaches into an afk T or something, that's not an actual counter, just cheese that works on bad T's). maybe u didnt play bw but 200 psi mech owned toss too lol. thats why u gotta overpower terran before he gets too strong. sc1 is basically revolved around recalls and frontal attacks while terran just has to hold on because he wins if he splits the map (talking about 2 player maps). thats where carriers come in and zerg has no carrier most common way i can think of is to take about 3-4 base as zerg get mapcontrol then make a huge fucking army and try break terran down with nyduses drops and frontal attacks. just like sc1 on destination tvz or tvp on 2 player maps without carrier. ur a bad player and u avoid my question about ur tournament achievements or rank stats etc, just drop the discussion ur embarrassing urself Protoss could beat 200 supply T mech. It was just hard. Not next to impossible like ZvT mech. You say the way to beat T in ZvT is to "overpower terran before he gets too strong". That's exactly what I'm saying. The only way to beat T mech is to cripple/kill him early with a muta-focused build (you can try all ground if you want to lose). You can throw in cheesy nydus or whatever else you want but if you let T get to 200/200 your chances of winning drop through the floor. We're saying essentially the same thing, you're just doing it in broken english and littered with personal insults. were not at all saying the same thing ur saying early game cheese and im saying play strong and straight up. im not talking about 1base nydus here im just saying zerg will reach high armies earlier than a meching terran and he can use that advantage to expand more or potentially break terran down. drop on different locations or nydus was just a suggestion to go around terrans army and use his mobility to his weakness Since when is a "muta-focused build" early game cheese? Muta/ling/bling is staple ZvT.
you dont make banelings and zerglings against mech, only time u do that is when trying to baneling bust that fails then u go 1hatch spire into mutalisk
ur clearly just a newb who makes banelings against tanks so ill stop this right now
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EPT
