EPTGive it a time, I'm sure they are aware of it. Maybe custom maps will fix it... All BW pro maps were made by community after all.
Map Balance - The Worst of the Worst - Page 11
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
AyJay
1515 Posts
Give it a time, I'm sure they are aware of it. Maybe custom maps will fix it... All BW pro maps were made by community after all. | ||
|
stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
Artosis/Idra i think you should practice more than one build order because if you just practice one solid build over and over, although you become very good at it, it may not be the best build order to use on every map. i think the smart strategy for zerg is to use a variety of cheeses on kulos ravine, as there are so many places people have to defend on that map. | ||
|
StarMasterX
United States113 Posts
| ||
|
Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
| ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
I find it hilarious how Artosis likes to name drop "Idra" whenever he's trying to defend himself no, this article was formed drawing upon both of their vast knowledge from relentlessly playing the game. He did not make this article and end up sprinking Idras name over it while only drawing upon his own oppinions for good measure, god some people are really dense.bitching about a maps features doesn't help anything You have to realise that it is not bitching and rather than bash people it is important for those of us who actually MAKE maps, It is my hope that we will see some creative yet new standard that is not blizzard standard. However i wanted to know just how they precieve the current map pool so that i can maybe make a better map. Artosis with his article is worth its weight in gold to me and i hope it promotes more discussion at the subject of map balance and current resource standard. Maps affect play STYLE Maps can also promote certain styles but just because one is optimal does not mean you cant attempt to force your style of play upon the map and make minor adjustement to optimise it. , i think you should practice more than one build order again your not seeing the broad strokes. JUST because a map promotes certain styles of play it does not mean they should THROW months of practice into a vastly different one. | ||
|
Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 20 2010 03:06 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Alou brings up a good point. Idra and Artosis play one playstyle 100% of the time. FE into a massive macro push with mass Roach or Hydra. Whatever happened to BW where that shit would not fly? For example I was a P player and I KNEW that I could not do a macro war on Bluestorm. I also knew that Medusa and Colo it paid to be uber aggressive with 10/15 Goon Rush. I think most of these players are not playing for the map and playing for the MU That's false the 100% same playstyle part. (Based on watching his streams Artosis mixes his builds up a lot. Like a delayed expo, based on early 2 gate pressure etc... As for IdrA he's more of a 99.9% same playstyle type player when it comes to FE he's more of a mind game player imo) | ||
|
nemahsys
Canada457 Posts
On June 19 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote: i laff at this cause imo desert oasis was the best map for zvt u cant play mech turtle cause of all the open areas and huge distances to everywhere and u cant make good timing pushes cause of the long distances i think its safe to say all the maps r insanely imbalanced, cmon here they r blizzard maps. do u really expect the first maps made to be good at all? mech works just like mech in sc1, u kill tons of units compared to the unit cost, short distances and small areas favors mech play, destination, stepps of war u cant play bio in tvz, so ur basically just talking about bio mech which is too little to talk about balance for imo ^ this | ||
|
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 19 2010 23:42 OneFierceZealot wrote: Christ man you spelled something wrong... never mind and im pretty sure im not the only one who assumed that when they played on ICCup that ICCup made the maps seeing how it says ICCup Destination, ICCup Fighting Spirit. etc. Holy shit get the fuck out of here, They made the god damn maps named that because its played on the iccup server, do you see the pros bitching about it(they play there by the way incase you didnt know) "OMG ITS NOT KESPA DESTINATION HOLY FUCKING COCKS" no you dont, go troll someone else. Yeah im pretty sure you are the only one who assumed that also, unless they have never in their life watched proleague(which im assuming you havent due to your complete ignorance) then they would 100% know iccup didnt make the maps, not to mention last i checked in the map description when making alot of the older maps(not the newer ones as its not included) the map authors name is there. On topic : The op is alright, however i feel its ALOT of bitching about how you cant win with zerg, great strats havent been figured out yet because its beta..saying the maps or the game is imbalanced just because no ones discovered a ground breaking build with zerg yet is just ridiculous | ||
|
clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 20 2010 05:23 Liquid`NonY wrote: I'm not a fan of map discussions without stats. But that's just me. People should take this for what it's worth. A ton of people are undervaluing this and some are overvaluing this. Imagine chat channels existed (it's a stretch, I know) and you happened to join one with Artosis and IdrA in it. You're a Zerg player and you've been wondering how the different maps change how Zerg works. You get up the courage to ask these people for their opinions... and to your surprise, not only do they answer you, but they write 1000's of words on it. That kinda stuff is pure gold to a ton of people. It's not about proving which map is balanced one way or the other. It's just that in their thousands of games played, Artosis and IdrA have noticed that some maps are very good for them as Zerg and some are pretty bad. That's interesting. It's the first step in understanding how certain features of maps are going to favor particular races. This forum is for discussion folks, not critiquing. Evaluating and judging OP's like this is a waste. Engage in the discussion and grapple with the ideas. For me it is very interesting when such good players like Artosis and Idra show their insights about the game. Especialy when they put so much effort in it and write well a argumented article. My goal is then to find out what I can learn from it. And when there's something that I don't understand/disagree with then I'd rather formulate my concerns into questions instead of claims. | ||
|
stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On June 20 2010 05:53 Madkipz wrote: no, this article was formed drawing upon both of their vast knowledge from relentlessly playing the game. He did not make this article and end up sprinking Idras name over it while only drawing upon his own oppinions for good measure, god some people are really dense. You have to realise that it is not bitching and rather than bash people it is important for those of us who actually MAKE maps, It is my hope that we will see some creative yet new standard that is not blizzard standard. However i wanted to know just how they precieve the current map pool so that i can maybe make a better map. Artosis with his article is worth its weight in gold to me and i hope it promotes more discussion at the subject of map balance and current resource standard. Maps can also promote certain styles but just because one is optimal does not mean you cant attempt to force your style of play upon the map and make minor adjustement to optimise it. , again your not seeing the broad strokes. JUST because a map promotes certain styles of play it does not mean they should THROW months of practice into a vastly different one. lol, so it takes idra 4 days of practice to almost qualify for osl but months to learn a new build order for a ladder map | ||
|
ckw
United States1018 Posts
Let's face it, Blizzard isn't very knowledgeable when it comes to what sort of stuff makes a good map for you top guys and almost never has. Just give it time for map makers at the same par as the Brood War ones to make their mark on SC2. It is BETA after all and race specific tweaks are being worked out, not map balancing. This sort of balancing isn't a top priority. Nice write up though Artosis, it's nice that people actually put good thought in to fixing what may seem "broken". The fact is, map balancing, and even race balancing in most cases is a personal and biased opinion so everyone is going to throw in their 2 cents. Can't wait to see the maps to come... | ||
|
Merikh
United States918 Posts
How can we change Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine to feel good against all match ups? Personally an idea for Kulas Ravine is to remove the entrance rocks from the high ground expansion (from your main to the expo). (Also I think we need to fix lost temple's cliffs next to the natural expansion whereas only thor drops on the cliff can hit the gas and not the natural expansion itself.) Discuss | ||
|
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:12 Merikh wrote: To turn the tide of this thread: How can we change Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine to feel good against all match ups? Personally an idea for Kulas Ravine is to remove the entrance rocks from the high ground expansion (from your main to the expo). Get rid of them. They are both just bad maps. I sort of like Kulas (Nony-blink ftw!) but DO is just plain stupid. | ||
|
clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:12 Merikh wrote: To turn the tide of this thread: How can we change Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine to feel good against all match ups? Personally an idea for Kulas Ravine is to remove the entrance rocks from the high ground expansion (from your main to the expo). sounds quite reasonable and on top its a simple solution as well. | ||
|
Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:13 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Get rid of them. They are both just bad maps. I sort of like Kulas (Nony-blink ftw!) but DO is just plain stupid. What style of maps do you recommend for starcraft2? | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
lol, so it takes idra 4 days of practice to almost qualify for osl but months to learn a new build order for a ladder map yes, its not about build order its about style, its about how he wants the mid to late game to play out. about what units he is familliar with useing and how he incorporates them to follow with him as he transitions into higher tiers of game. THere is a GIANT unsurmountable difference between Practice, tweaking a build and changing your entire game STYLE. | ||
|
Mack
United States25 Posts
| ||
|
Alou
United States3748 Posts
On June 20 2010 05:57 Merikh wrote: That's false the 100% same playstyle part. (Based on watching his streams Artosis mixes his builds up a lot. Like a delayed expo, based on early 2 gate pressure etc... As for IdrA he's more of a 99.9% same playstyle type player when it comes to FE he's more of a mind game player imo) What you're describing is how they have to alter things to fit the current game. Not a change in their playstyle. They still have the same general ideas going in from what I've seen. Of course if a player has early zealot harass he won't feel safe to expand, but he will steal deal with the harass, expand, and go back to how he has been playing. I think my other post highlights my opinion on this. I think players who want this macro oriented almost mechanical game need to be able to take a step back and try something different if their style isn't fitting the map. | ||
|
stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:12 Merikh wrote: To turn the tide of this thread: How can we change Desert Oasis and Kulas Ravine to feel good against all match ups? Personally an idea for Kulas Ravine is to remove the entrance rocks from the high ground expansion (from your main to the expo). (Also I think we need to fix lost temple's cliffs next to the natural expansion whereas only thor drops on the cliff can hit the gas and not the natural expansion itself.) Discuss delete kulas ravine, if it was balanced it would end up looking like LT. | ||
|
Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:21 Alou wrote: What you're describing is how they have to alter things to fit the current game. Not a change in their playstyle. They still have the same general ideas going in from what I've seen. Of course if a player has early zealot harass he won't feel safe to expand, but he will steal deal with the harass, expand, and go back to how he has been playing. I think my other post highlights my opinion on this. I think players who want this macro oriented almost mechanical game need to be able to take a step back and try something different if their style isn't fitting the map. Truth, I see what you're saying (staying on 1 base too long isn't how zerg works though imo). Personally on a map like Kulas my main focus is "how do I secure my expo without wasting 300 minerals and dying". | ||
| ||
