EPTNot saying that its an imbalanced matchup, but seriously, you can't call a map bad just because the other races can put pressure early on a fast expansion. If you want an expansion, you should have to defend it. Its not fuckin free.
Map Balance - The Worst of the Worst - Page 12
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
Not saying that its an imbalanced matchup, but seriously, you can't call a map bad just because the other races can put pressure early on a fast expansion. If you want an expansion, you should have to defend it. Its not fuckin free. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Taking away the destructible rocks is not a good idea in my opinion. They are there to get in the way. If someone wants to break into your base that way, they'd then only have to go through 1 rock. there would also be little incentive to actually take your natural rather than your high ground. Kulas Ravine is meant to be a tricky map, and I think it's already perfectly balanced if you actually plan your positioning, realize how the terrain can be taken advantage of, and defend against that or use it against your opponent. Desert Oasis is just.............. strange. But it shouldn't be deleted. I think it would be more interesting if there was a Xel-Naga tower closer to each natural though. It might make it a more dynamic matchup, but make it a little easier for both players to maintain some map control and your 2nd expansion. Edit: Props to the poster above me. Expansions aren't free. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:31 Paramore wrote: I like how zerg players feel that they should automatically have a free expansion. They have no clue that they could easily play one-base and expand later, like every other race. Its like if they can't have 2-base they think its imbalanced. Too bad protoss production buildlings can't act as an extra nexus that we can put at our natural and just saturate with probes while building an army. Not saying that its an imbalanced matchup, but seriously, you can't call a map bad just because the other races can put pressure early on a fast expansion. If you want an expansion, you should have to defend it. Its not fuckin free. This is also something I thought about. Why does Zerg have to be allowed a free expansion? Early int he beta most Zerg were happy playing off 1 base. It's like HuK. Most Protoss now choose to fast expand. But yet HuK flourishes off one base play. CatZ is the type of player that might be able to lay the way for one base Zerg play. He is creative and focused enough. | ||
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:34 Fyrewolf wrote: Kulas Ravine is one of my favorite maps. The questions is about how can we change them, not how can we delete them. Taking away the destructible rocks is not a good idea in my opinion. They are there to get in the way. If someone wants to break into your base that way, they'd then only have to go through 1 rock. there would also be little incentive to actually take your natural rather than your high ground. Kulas Ravine is meant to be a tricky map, and I think it's already perfectly balanced if you actually plan your positioning, realize how the terrain can be taken advantage of, and defend against that or use it against your opponent. Desert Oasis is just.............. strange. But it shouldn't be deleted. I think it would be more interesting if there was a Xel-Naga tower closer to each natural though. It might make it a more dynamic matchup, but make it a little easier for both players to maintain some map control and your 2nd expansion. The thing about Kulas is Terran can be ahead 1 base in both matchups TvP and TvZ. My idea of removing the front rocks just gives all matchups the possibility to have an safer early expo instead of just terran. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:16 Madkipz wrote: yes, its not about build order its about style, its about how he wants the mid to late game to play out. about what units he is familliar with useing and how he incorporates them to follow with him as he transitions into higher tiers of game. THere is a GIANT unsurmountable difference between Practice and changing your entire game STYLE. Na its really easy actually, for example after roach nerf idra instantly started using a hydra/ling orientated game and raped just as hard. If you already have the skill inherent then it's pretty easy to switch up, that's why all the Good BW players are good at SC2 and the switch was instant | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:35 iCCup.Diamond wrote: This is also something I thought about. Why does Zerg have to be allowed a free expansion? Early int he beta most Zerg were happy playing off 1 base. Yeah, and then they nerfed all of the units that made 1base play somewhat viable. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:38 stroggos wrote: Na its really easy actually, for example after roach nerf idra instantly started using a hydra/ling orientated game and raped just as hard. If you already have the skill inherent then it's pretty easy to switch up, that's why all the Good BW players are good at SC2 and the switch was instant thats not a game style switch, he is still using the same broad strokes as before in that he will get an expansion, start saturating while defending with as few units as possible, barely suriving and suddenly sprinting upwards of 150 / 200 while he takes his third and possibly fourth. Now if he had suddenly started useing spire units for his mid game i could admit that ok i am wrong but i dont think that in the instant that roaches got nerfed he switched his entire style. He just switched the focus towards a more Hydralisk sentric army earlier on. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:51 Madkipz wrote: thats not a game style switch, he is still using the same broad strokes as before in that he will get an expansion, start saturating while defending with as few units as possible, barely suriving and suddenly sprinting upwards of 150 / 200 while he takes his third and possibly fourth. Now if he had suddenly started useing spire units for his mid game i could admit that ok i am wrong but i dont think that in the instant that roaches got nerfed he switched his entire style. He just switched the focus towards a more Hydralisk sentric army earlier on. This is exactly what makes him such an interesting and smart player. He makes well calculated adjustments during his games. This is the type of player that is detail focussed. and thats why I respect his opinion and insight about map favoritism ...same goes for artosis. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
I think the problem are the players and not the map, Artosis and Idra are training based players and huge practise monsters with great mechanics and determination but lack in the strategy and insight department imo. Their decision making is mostly terrible (for top level) and they use the same playstyle on all maps. They balance their playstyle on standard macro maps but different maps require a different playstyle. Especialy on kulvas zerg should use the backdoors for full potential to use their speed and in wich you will see that terran cannot take 3 base save cause there are 2 destructible rocks and 2 entrances to the nat zerg can exploit. Close spawn with the nats being close to each other however is totaly terran favoured but imo cross spawn and far spawn defenatly aint. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:38 Merikh wrote: The thing about Kulas is Terran can be ahead 1 base in both matchups TvP and TvZ. My idea of removing the front rocks just gives all matchups the possibility to have an safer early expo instead of just terran. Terran doesn't necessarily have a safe expo either, there are multiple entrances to the expansions. If a zerg or protoss player wants a safe expansion too, he can knock down the rocks early. Siege Tanks are good at holding down Kulas pretty well, maybe better than other races, but there are still 2 regular entrances to the expo, and 2 different destructable rocks that could provide entrance to their base. Non- terrans should actually like this map, because of the many assault paths, whereas terran often has to buckle down and turtle, an inherent strength of theirs. So yes terran has a slightly easier expo, because terran holds territory well. It's also slightly easier to attack, than a normal terran expo. And every race can take a safer expo if they knock down rocks, and if you take that one first, then it's easy to defend the 3rd at your natural with a 2 base econ already in place. Since there is more than one option for a 2nd base, I don't see it that terran automatically can get 1 base up against someone on this map for very long, unless he double expands, which is kind of vulnerable. Edit: Damn 4Servy beat me to it. Nice post. Thanks for noting that spawn positions drastically change map too. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:56 Stratos_speAr wrote: (when the objective as Zerg is to be on the offensive as much as possible) That's only true if your name is kwanro. | ||
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Alou
United States3748 Posts
On June 20 2010 06:29 Merikh wrote: Truth, I see what you're saying (staying on 1 base too long isn't how zerg works though imo). Personally on a map like Kulas my main focus is "how do I secure my expo without wasting 300 minerals and dying". Expand later when you can defend the risky expo on Kulas or break the rocks and expand on top of the cliff. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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koppik
United States676 Posts
Getting two top zergs to discuss maps they feel weak on is still pretty interesting nevertheless. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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Luvz
Norway356 Posts
Start useing other builds then FE Macropush and ul see a big diffrence in your gameplay. its a OK read if your into constant crying. but what do i know im just @ C + im sorry if my english grammer is bad. im EU and i want to be like Whit-ra.. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On June 20 2010 07:25 Morgynia wrote: You seriously whine way to much for your own good Artosis. its a beta phase and u start whineing on maps, of all things... theres so much other stuff you could do for the community that they will actully appriciate. u just killed a part of me from the inside for writeing back to some of the posters with a attitude like that. Been playing RTSes all my life and you can see a clear divide between the types of players who adapt and innovate and the types of players who seek to achieve parity by claiming imbalance. Unfortunately even good players can be childish, as this thread demonstrates. The problem is that SC2 isn't even out yet. There's tons of great players that are going to emerge without a SC1 background, whereas now all the players are currently riding their SC1/WC3 experience, which ultimately won't last forever as more creative and mature players close the mechanics gap. As a result we have a lot of players who aren't really creative thinkers claiming that their superior skill makes their opinion more valid, when in reality the only advantage they have is that they have sharp mechanics from SC1. Good times will ensue once the mechanics curve begins to be narrowed. | ||
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AeonStrife
United States918 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On June 20 2010 01:00 FrozenArbiter wrote: What? Fine, that's great, but Desert Oasis is not bad for zerg. If you wanna call Steppes, LT, Incineration Zone, Kulas bad for zerg - be my guest. Desert? That's like the best zerg map in the pool as long as the game goes past early :[ 1) you are the one who brought up mech, and then thought i did, because i mentioned units which weren't made out of flesh. 2) you are actually saying to me over and over that mech isn't that good on Desert, and thus its a zerg map. IdrA and I directly disagree with Desert being a Zerg map vs Terran, due to the reasons we put. NOT because of any mech garbage, as mech wasn't even thought about in the creation of this article. Notice we even explained that SEn went 1 hatch mutalisk here because of how ridiculous it is to fight off a thor drop. In fact, so many people are trying to counter our well thought out arguments by saying "its a big map, thats good for zerg, its a zerg map." YES, big maps are good for Zerg. NO, Desert is not one of them vs Terran. | ||
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