EPTMap Balance - The Worst of the Worst - Page 14
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
| ||
|
HowardRoark
1146 Posts
I do know that this particular post is about the maps ONLY, but Blizzard, if you read this, just bide your time and see how things play out before you do any more changes. You (Blizzard) have really gone overboard too many times already (phoenix anyone?) with the patch changes. Imagine if there were these uproars during the release of SC1; the game would not have been nearly as good if they kept tweaking as much as they do now before being patient and seeing how things play out. On a side note, if someone can enlighten me, I do have one question: People kept talking about how useless mech were, but then it kept changing. I wonder: Was it the "Center Splash Damage" patch that totally turned the table for mech, or has it been viable to some extent all the way through beta, but that no one actually knew anyting? | ||
|
Brokengamer
Philippines116 Posts
On June 20 2010 10:54 HowardRoark wrote: The problem is that Blizzard have started to listen too much to the community, and it has resulted in them going overboard more than once with the patching. I do know that this particular post is about the maps ONLY, but Blizzard, if you read this, just bide your time and see how things play out before you do any more changes. You (Blizzard) have really gone overboard too many times already (phoenix anyone?) with the patch changes. Imagine if there were these uproars during the release of SC1; the game would not have been nearly as good if they kept tweaking as much as they do now before being patient and seeing how things play out. On a side note, if someone can enlighten me, I do have one question: People kept talking about how useless mech were, but then it kept changing. I wonder: Was it the "Center Splash Damage" patch that totally turned the table for mech, or has it been viable to some extent all the way through beta, but that no one actually knew anyting? Its because of "center splash damage" and "no overkill AI" patch.. Terran players had alway been addicted to using siege tanks even when they were still weak. | ||
|
alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On June 20 2010 11:02 Brokengamer wrote: Its because of "center splash damage" and "no overkill AI" patch.. Terran players had alway been addicted to using siege tanks even when they were still weak. false, at the start of the beta, there were very few strong straight mech builds. players either went all bio, or started bio and transitioned to mech or bio mech. | ||
|
Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On June 20 2010 11:11 alphafuzard wrote: false, at the start of the beta, there were very few strong straight mech builds. players either went all bio, or started bio and transitioned to mech or bio mech. He is correct. Mech was totally unusable at the launch. It wasnt till around patch 7 or so we started seeing anything mech. | ||
|
D3lta
United States93 Posts
The theory I've been working on after reading these 14 pages (beta is down, I am bored), is that all the maps essentially, suck. The exception being Lost Temple and Metalopolis. Really though, they need to just trash these stupid mini maps (stepps and incineration zone) hands down. Kulas....I say take it down for awhile, then introduce it when zerg starts doing better vs mech (which is going to happen). I think when it comes to DO, a lot of people just flat out don't like the map. So they attribute some kind of balance issue to it, they may not actually exist (marrow is good at explaining what sucks about this map v Z, and artosis/Idra have pointed out why a lot of zerg hate it too). I haven't seen any evidence that its hard to play a macro PvZ on DO, just evidence that 4 gate all-ins work really well. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 11:02 Brokengamer wrote: Its because of "center splash damage" and "no overkill AI" patch.. Terran players had alway been addicted to using siege tanks even when they were still weak. They never had overkill in SC2 (as long as the beta was around anyway), that wasn't patched. For TvT, various changes (marine build time, tank build time, perhaps more than anything else) killed the 1 rax CC -> 3 rax mara build, opening the door to way more mech builds. For TvZ, mech was always good - I used it since one of the earliest patches. However, roaches used to be RIDICULOUS - they have since gone from 1 supply with super-super-super fast regen @ hive-tech, to 2 supply and way less regen unless burrowed. For TvP, ehh, there was just no good build that could lead into mech play until the 1/1/1 build was discovered. Trying to mech without that, just led to you dying to too many things or getting behind etc... + Before they nerfed the warp gate research time, all 1 rax builds just died to mass warpgate+pylon below your ramp  On June 20 2010 11:15 D3lta wrote: Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that Artosis can't make a single thread without inciting some kind of uproar? The theory I've been working on after reading these 14 pages (beta is down, I am bored), is that all the maps essentially, suck. The exception being Lost Temple and Metalopolis. Really though, they need to just trash these stupid mini maps (stepps and incineration zone) hands down. Kulas....I say take it down for awhile, then introduce it when zerg starts doing better vs mech (which is going to happen). I think when it comes to DO, a lot of people just flat out don't like the map. So they attribute some kind of balance issue to it, they may not actually exist (marrow is good at explaining what sucks about this map v Z, and artosis/Idra have pointed out why a lot of zerg hate it too). I haven't seen any evidence that its hard to play a macro PvZ on DO, just evidence that 4 gate all-ins work really well. Kulas needs bigger paths in the center, and probably the paths up to the cliff areas should be bigger as well. Desert Oasis needs a better placed natural, which would make cheese less strong vs zerg AND make non-cheese options better. Maybe do what they did on scrap station and add debris to one of the paths leading to the natural (and preferably move the ramp so you can defend the ramp and your nat at once...). Maybe make it a bit harder to hit the main gas. I'm not sure if it would end up being necessary or not. EDIT: Maybe make the distance between minerals and the edge of your main longer to make bunker cheese weaker - again, not sure if it's needed or if this is a desireable "feature" of the map. | ||
|
UnderWorld_Dream
Canada219 Posts
It is an interesting discussion. Maybe should you have start with what zerg is good at, and avoid so much flaming. I won't comment, cause I havent played zerg at all in ladder. | ||
|
iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On June 20 2010 10:03 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm assuming you think Scrap Station is zerg favoured? I actually feel like it's balanced/T favoured TvZ at least O_o I'd pick scrap station a million times before I picked desert oasis vs Zerg. You don't think there's a reason that Scrap Station is the standard pick by Zerg players? I could link you to endless matches where the Zerg player picks Scrap Station against T or P. I will agree that hellions are very strong against Zerg on scrap station because you can't block the ramp to the main with queens/roaches. However, mutas are very, very powerful on scrap vs terran (because vikings do not counter mutas combined with the short air distance) and spreading creep between the second expo and the destructible rocks allows you to defend 3 bases very quickly. | ||
|
Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
On June 20 2010 12:07 iEchoic wrote: You don't think there's a reason that Scrap Station is the standard pick by Zerg players? I could link you to endless matches where the Zerg player picks Scrap Station against T or P. afaik metalopolis is the standard pick by zergs ^_~ | ||
|
eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
On June 20 2010 10:39 ryanAnger wrote: Zergs have to expand because they simply can't win without a macro advantage. And, our production building is also our main building, so we basically need more hatches to be able to produce enough units. That's the part I don't get. 1 Hatch and a queen has a production rate of 6 units of production. At 3-4 minute mark, thats pretty damn good for pool+150 resources. Not to mention zerg can allocate resources more freely to switch between economy/army since they essentially have a free mixture of 6 gateways or nexus. Zergs generally have a faster increase of resource gathering rate. They saturate faster than most races when playing heavy econ. But I have to say, terran tends to have the biggest macro advantage off 1 base due to their resource rate overflow from MULE. However in the case of zvp, i don't think 1 base toss will have an unfair macro advantage against 1 base zerg at all. | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2010 12:07 iEchoic wrote: You don't think there's a reason that Scrap Station is the standard pick by Zerg players? I could link you to endless matches where the Zerg player picks Scrap Station against T or P. I will agree that hellions are very strong against Zerg on scrap station because you can't block the ramp to the main with queens/roaches. However, mutas are very, very powerful on scrap vs terran (because vikings do not counter mutas combined with the short air distance) and spreading creep between the second expo and the destructible rocks allows you to defend 3 bases very quickly. Meh, mutas are very strong on desert oasis too then - I'd much rather have Scrap Station where I can take a 3rd base without dying T can turtle with mech on scrap, while it's impossible on Desert - I'd say this alone makes Scrap better for T than Desert. There are less cheese options on Scrap, but in a standard game it's far more even. I think Viking builds are also a million times stronger on scrap station than on DO, as the natural on DO is not easily harassable while both the main and nat are reasonable targets for vikings on Scrap. It might be super imbalanced ZvP for all I know, but it's not nearly as bad as Desert for Terran at least. | ||
|
pzea469
United States1520 Posts
| ||
|
Alou
United States3748 Posts
On June 20 2010 12:49 FrozenArbiter wrote: Meh, mutas are very strong on desert oasis too then - I'd much rather have Scrap Station where I can take a 3rd base without dying T can turtle with mech on scrap, while it's impossible on Desert - I'd say this alone makes Scrap better for T than Desert. There are less cheese options on Scrap, but in a standard game it's far more even. I think Viking builds are also a million times stronger on scrap station than on DO, as the natural on DO is not easily harassable while both the main and nat are reasonable targets for vikings on Scrap. It might be super imbalanced ZvP for all I know, but it's not nearly as bad as Desert for Terran at least. ZvP on Scrap Station is pretty balanced imo. Nothing too crazy I can think of off the top of my head. | ||
|
Merikh
United States918 Posts
On June 20 2010 07:16 Alou wrote: Expand later when you can defend the risky expo on Kulas or break the rocks and expand on top of the cliff. I wasn't asking lol... (Just a thought process I do) | ||
|
IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On June 20 2010 11:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: For TvZ, mech was always good - I used it since one of the earliest patches. However, roaches used to be RIDICULOUS - they have since gone from 1 supply with super-super-super fast regen @ hive-tech, to 2 supply and way less regen unless burrowed. what? mech was utterly horrible vs 1 supply roaches and 50 mana mind control | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
take a 3rd base without dying And I think this is key in every argument when discussing Terran mech vs. Zerg. Apollo mentions in his interview that sc brood war is balanced around its imbalance. I am in the progress of re watching all of days dailies and came across his 23rd daily. Upmagic vs GGaemo he mentioned a lot of subtleties in the matchup but the general theme is the same. OUT expanding the meching terran and win by nature of having a lot more stuff at a faster rate than he can push. If you haven’t seen it http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3533906/ In addition to both roach and hydralisk suddenly being 2 supply (hydra was 1 supply in brood war and had speed off creep). You simply overall have access to less stuff than in sc1 while terran mech has more stuff to fiddle around with such as banshees and Vikings. In the ultimate doom scenario on any map outside of cross positions metalopolis and some chases such as cross position lost temple. The current map pool does not allow you to take 3-4 expansions with relative ease and safety against mech. You can gamble and hope he doesn’t kill them off but really, its hard to get 4 bases on steppes of war without dying in the process to the various forms of harassments that terran has at his disposal in addition to building the mech blob. And that’s why we sometimes see mech as this unstoppable force. Because really as day puts it in his 23rd daily, a 200 / 200 mech army can not be beat unless you have had superior macro than the terran and the wiggle room to replenish yours once you have killed off half of his blob and I personally wanted Artosis to comment on the current map pool before he ever mentioned the possibility of an article specifically I wanted to hear if the current 8 mineral 2 gas system favours Terran more so than zerg or comments on how almost all the expansion patterns all form the same pattern. Towards your enemy, its not a good thing for zerg either. mech was utterly horrible vs 1 supply roaches Because roaches can actually LIVE trough tankshots for an extensive period of time, reduced hp and supply cost with increased armor would be an easy fix as tanks would then need less tank shots. xD but its a short sighted solution not accounting for ZVP | ||
|
AdahnSC
United States376 Posts
| ||
|
Myv382
China31 Posts
While Kulas Ravine has short rush distance, and long scout distance, he argues it is imbalanced. Yet it is completely the opposite on Desert Oasis, again it's imbalanced. Most of the builds used against Zerg that are argued as imbalanced can simply be countered with a little scouting and timing attacks. Why even talk about Incineration Zone? | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
| ||
| ||
