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People need to listen to real music - Page 9

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Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
May 19 2010 01:40 GMT
#161
jesus christ why isnt this thread closed
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
JohnColtrane
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Australia4813 Posts
May 19 2010 08:45 GMT
#162
coz alot of the comments are pretty good. i agree with most of what phos says, i think he just gets misunderstood alot. im guilty of misunderstanding too
HEY MEYT
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 10:06:23
May 19 2010 10:02 GMT
#163
i fully accept that there may be aspects of art that i do not understand, much like there are dimensions i cannot observe and wavelengths i cannot see. however, it seems to me quantifying a piece of art as a "better work of art" is simply a different way of saying the same thing as "better art".

your proposition, being able to objectively judge art, assumes that you understand all the dimensions of art which make works of art an art. on this point, you have readily admitted that there is no consensus among academia which clearly pinpoints the exact characteristics which are requisites for something to be a work of art. by its most broad definition, i assume nearly everything can be considered a work of art, so long as that said work of art "expresses something".

music is the one most hotly debated in this thread and so i will use that as an example. music is essentially a collection of sounds which are pleasing to the ear, is it not? now, there are many different genres of music which follow specific structures. classical, rock, rap, pop, etc. objectively, can you say that all classical music is a "better work of art" than another genre? if not, how would you compare any two genres? both have different structures that they must follow that i am assuming are vastly different, so how would you compare them? where is the common ground?

how well something is expressed is not universal nor is it quantifiable; what is clear as day to one person can leave another completely oblivious. what this boils down to then is that you are trying to judge, by a rigid structure of "objectivity", that which has no structure. yes, perhaps classical music follows a structure, much like many genres do, and with that i will not argue; it is possible to say something is more rock than rap, more pop than classical. we have defined a collections of sounds as such and thus we are able to quantify how well they meet our classifications.

however, with art, in the broadest sense of the word, there is no structure or rigid definition, and thus, you have no jurisdiction.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 10:56:22
May 19 2010 10:13 GMT
#164
On May 19 2010 06:45 jon arbuckle wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On May 18 2010 16:20 phosphorylation wrote:
For the love of god, for the last time: no art is "better" for everyone. However, some art IS objectively better as a work of art. But some people might not care about that, that's why it cannot be said it's "better" for everyone.


Right, and I kept telling you how you're wrong, and you kept arguing nebulously and circuituously, oftentimes by revising what it is you said and/or bringing up shit completely and entirely unrelated to the conversation, until you presented what is the same ho-hum, simple argument that you presented on page like four. So, because you've proven yourself at the very least incapable of close reading, one last thing and I will avoid this topic permanently:

"Some art IS objectively better as a work of art" presumes that "art" can be given a definite standard objective shape to which all other things may be compared. You are then making the tacit assumption that, say, a piece of baroque or romantic or classical composition from centuries ago may be compared to a pop song written a year ago usinfg the same rubric. You are comparing two pieces of music vastly different in their composition, in their uses (in their given times), in their audience, and in the materials available to these people. This method of criticism in practice is akin to the following:

Dear 50 Cent,
You suck because Scriabin wrote in the octotonic scales and because Mozart wrote Italian opera.
Sincerely,
phosphorylation


or, alternately,

Dear Alexander Scriabin,
You suck because 50 Cent spits hot fire.
Sincerely,
phosphorylation


You're comparing apples with dodos.

When I said you argued nebulously, it's because you've left undefined what it is that makes "true" "artistic" form. By your criteria, I must say something meaningful and/or I can say something deceptive because it's ironic. Or I must produce something original and/or I can do something intentionally unoriginal in order to be ironic or engage in postmodern pastiche. Or I must produce something cohesive and/or I can be purposefully and intentionally self-interrupting and schizophrenic. Great theory. Really clears things up.

In such a situation, there is no standard against which I may determine artistic value. All there is, instead, is the incredibly vague idea of what "art" is, looks like, and sounds like, coming from people who think there's no scholarly debate on Shakespeare, that there aren't accomplished musicians and composers who think Beethoven is uninspired tripe (like, I dunno, Karlheinz Stockhausen), who think there's no scholarly artistic discourse on pop music, and who should probably brush up on art theory and art itself - all art - from the last fifty to one-hundred years, if only to familiarize themselves with how the very form has changed, and how any concept of an objective standard has eroded and died.

wow i didn't read this post. i agree with this and see you (phosphorylation) have dodged this post already. good day to you.

On May 18 2010 11:45 Tal wrote:
phosphorylation - it's really comforting to see you fighting the good fight in this thread. For a while it looked like the thread was going to totally disintegrate into 'I like what I what I like and everything's utterly subjective'.

Someone said that just because Kant and Adorno said something doesn't mean it's right. Well of course it doesn't. But it's not just them...nearly every philosopher or serious thinker on art puts artists like Shakespeare, Mozart or Picasso far above your average 'pop artists' for many many compelling reasons. I'm happy to make an 'appeal to the authority' of the greatest thinkers in human history - I certainly trust them more then anyone I've met who's still alive. And actually, all the smartest people I've met agree with the philosophers...

People describe elitists as very proud people, but I think it's the opposite. I'm rejecting my own pride, and admitting my teenage self was unsurprisingly, very wrong about what the important things in life are. Sticking to my ill-thought out principles would have been stupid.

if i were to show you or any other philosopher on art an excerpt of the most intricately beautiful and delicately interwoven piece of code ever written that would move the greatest programmers in this world to tears i am willing to bet your philosophers would gawk at it with the naivety of a puppy. art only speaks to those who are willing and able to listen. if you want to judge art by your own subset of rules be my guest, but don't pretend like those rules are universal and apply to everyone.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32159 Posts
May 19 2010 16:55 GMT
#165
On May 19 2010 10:35 Nal_rAwr wrote:
i recently came across this:


+ Show Spoiler [original] +




the comments all say that the fray's cover is 100x better.
is it really THAT MUCH better?

seriously, i'm posting this because i cant comprehend how people can actually like that cover that many more times than kanye's

i think the comments and people who like the fray's are either
1. racist against blacks
2. biased against the mainstream rap style (that kanye isn't really a part of)
3. favoring a white rock group
4. hating on kanye for his ego

i think the people are just releasing some of their kanye-hate in those comments, and as a result are really biased

seriously the fray sounds like a depressed shit in that cover

wow...


ah yes exactly, uncontrollable racism blinds people from seeing that kanye is the best

couldn't be anything to do with the fact that they're two COMPLETELY different styles of music, and that some people might prefer a guitar over a synthetic sound and kanye's distorted voice, or vice versa. What hard logic to comprehend!

seconding caller, why isn't this stupid thread closed
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Lucid90
Profile Joined September 2008
Canada340 Posts
May 19 2010 18:15 GMT
#166
Personally I don't agree because saying that this rock guy who died made bad music is just your OPINION. That's the main thing to consider here. It's just an opinion. You can't say that one type of music is better than another, because that would just be your OPINION of it. Personally I deeply hate country, classical, and most rap and heavy metal music, but that doesn't make it bad or good music, it just means this music isn't for me. Some people (a lot of people actually) adore heavy metal music, but it doesn't mean this music is 'better' than another, it just means more people like heavy metal music. There's nothing you can compare different music genres with. Sure you can argue that some music is more complicated and took more time to make, but to me all of that doesn't matter if when I listen to it I want to stab my ears with a big knife until I'm deaf.

That's why comparing music tastes is as bad as arguing which religion is correct or which clothing styles are the best or which cars are the coolest. In the end, it's just your opinion.

And death metal sucks ass.
My sc2 account: http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1296221/LuciD
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-19 18:44:48
May 19 2010 18:42 GMT
#167
On May 19 2010 10:35 Nal_rAwr wrote:
i recently came across this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBTdJHkAr5A

+ Show Spoiler [original] +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co0tTeuUVhU


the comments all say that the fray's cover is 100x better.
is it really THAT MUCH better?

seriously, i'm posting this because i cant comprehend how people can actually like that cover that many more times than kanye's

i think the comments and people who like the fray's are either
1. racist against blacks
2. biased against the mainstream rap style (that kanye isn't really a part of)
3. favoring a white rock group
4. hating on kanye for his ego

i think the people are just releasing some of their kanye-hate in those comments, and as a result are really biased

seriously the fray sounds like a depressed shit in that cover

wow...

yo Kanye Im happy for you and Ima let you finish but thats one of the best covers of all time! One of best covers of all time!!

But yeah... It's good mainly cause they're white


On May 20 2010 03:15 Lucid90 wrote:
Personally I don't agree because saying that this rock guy who died made bad music is just your OPINION. That's the main thing to consider here. It's just an opinion. You can't say that one type of music is better than another, because that would just be your OPINION of it. Personally I deeply hate country, classical, and most rap and heavy metal music, but that doesn't make it bad or good music, it just means this music isn't for me. Some people (a lot of people actually) adore heavy metal music, but it doesn't mean this music is 'better' than another, it just means more people like heavy metal music. There's nothing you can compare different music genres with. Sure you can argue that some music is more complicated and took more time to make, but to me all of that doesn't matter if when I listen to it I want to stab my ears with a big knife until I'm deaf.

That's why comparing music tastes is as bad as arguing which religion is correct or which clothing styles are the best or which cars are the coolest. In the end, it's just your opinion.

And death metal sucks ass.

yo it's just an opinion but you have a shit taste in music... Just my opinion man
If you have to ask, you don't know.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
May 19 2010 20:11 GMT
#168
On May 19 2010 10:40 Caller wrote:
jesus christ why isnt this thread closed


good question!
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
May 20 2010 05:00 GMT
#169
Oh shit I thought I closed it when I banned the OP. My bad guys.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
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