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On April 20 2010 16:16 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 16:12 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Players like you make me sick; if you want to play an easy game; please go and play an easy game. Is it really that hard to memorize a FEW hotkeys? Its not like its a billion hotkey combinations to memorize...
Seriously thats just plain cheating, there's not even a need for discussion here, because it clearly grants an advantage over a player who has to press more keys than you. Even if I really don't care if a casual player uses macros on me; I'd really mind a player on high-level using macros.
Stuff like this makes me mad. Get the German version, all hotkeys there are QWERTZ, ASDFGH, YXCVBN; -_- for all races. Chill out dude. It's still a game and not like he will become the new "Flash" just because he has a shiny keyboard... LOL at ragers.
Yes, I totally rage about people cheating at a game. I don't really care (as I stated before) if casuals do that, but I'd plainly call it cheating. So.. no need to talk about it; it will never be allowed in tourneys etc. I own a Saitek Cyborg Keyboard and I'm able to work with AUTO_IT so I could probably just macro-up and let the macro play all the opening build for me.. but thats just ridiculous.
He should just learn the keys.
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Wait isn't a macro equivalent of performing a series of keystrokes? If so then how can you have one macro for build extractor that works for all three races? (since the hotkeys will differ)
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I am a passionate supporter of the 5$ keyboard (+5$ for contrast keys  ). It's a personal feeling but i dislike this and also custom key mapping. Everyone playing on a standard keyboard with the same hotkeys like with SC:BW seems sounds like the best situation for me.
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Why don't you just change the hotkeys to the qwertz layout so its the same for each race - I do think that is totally acceptable as the german version has this by default while using macros is plainly wrong. If I am not mistaken Blizzard even said in one of the interviews that macros are fine for WoW but they don't want to see them in SC2, and spotting macros will be incredibly easy once a replay analyzer exists)
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I haven't heard macros are against the rules/cheating, if blizzard says it I'll stop using it.
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On April 20 2010 17:40 Punk wrote:
I haven't heard macros are against the rules/cheating, if blizzard says it I'll stop using it.
You're gaining an unfair advantage from letting the keyboard input a few extra keystrokes for you.
It's sort of an implied rule that any sort of technical hardware advantage is considered as "cheating," but that's a really strong word so I'll just stick with unfair.
You WILL be chewed out by doing this because of how competitive TL members are. They expect that everyone will be on a level playing field on Bnet, but having macro keys is sort of giving yourself that unfair advantage.
However, I don't think it matters too much if you don't know what you're doing with it =P But I suggest if you want to enter a tournament or play seriously, you save those macro keys for WoW. You're really missing out on the fun of actually using the normal hotkeys and macroing it up like everyone else. It's just part of the game and its valued if you can macro with the standard hotkeys.
I don't think you'll find a lot of people here agreeing with you using these keys =\
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I would say not using the macros for stuff like this is common sense. Creating a control advantage which theoretically can make you faster than any other player, not by skill, but by externally modifying the control of the game is a no go and should be a no brainer. I think it's kind of strange how people can still get a feeling of accomplishment beating someone while they know that they have skewed the playing field in their favor. I guess the same can be said about people who use map hacks.
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On April 20 2010 18:03 Reptilian wrote:
I would say not using the macros for stuff like this is common sense. Creating a control advantage which theoretically can make you faster than any other player, not by skill, but by externally modifying the control of the game is a no go and should be a no brainer. I think it's kind of strange how people can still get a feeling of accomplishment beating someone while they know that they have skewed the playing field in their favor. I guess the same can be said about people who use map hacks.
Agreed. I can never understand a satisfaction in a game you "know" you can win.
However, I'm gonna have to slightly sympathize with the stance of the OP. It would be a nice standard if all the hotkeys were somehow universal for all races, at least for buildings. I have no idea how that would work for units, since no units are equivalent.
But like everyone says, its best to know the diff hotkeys manually. I'm sure an option to universalize at least all the buildings commands will be the same once the game is released.
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Usually my macromanagement fails because miss a round of production, so speeding up the keypresses isn't really the way to solve it. Pressing 2 or 3 keys rather than 1 is slower but it doesn't make that much of a difference as long as you remember to do it when you need to. Usually I just think "build more zealots" and my fingers do it anyways, brain macros if you will.
+ Show Spoiler +macro it to do hold position micro or something instead
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On April 20 2010 18:07 shindigs wrote:
Agreed. I can never understand a satisfaction in a game you "know" you can win.
However, I'm gonna have to slightly sympathize with the stance of the OP. It would be a nice standard if all the hotkeys were somehow universal for all races, at least for buildings. I have no idea how that would work for units, since no units are equivalent.
That would make it alot easier.
On the other hand, having different keys for the different races does add to the different feel of said races. It makes ther game a lttle more difficult to learn, but I don't think we play Starcraft because it's easy. We want a challenge!  Otherwise we could just pick up our button bashing Console controllers and have at it. (Been there, done that  )
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I dont see how a macro keyboard can help much in in sc2. Macro for making more stuff for zerg is basicly 1,r,click,click,click + 1,tab(since I group queens and hatchiers),s, d,d,d,d,d(for example). This is repeated over and over all through the game and youll have full control of how much you want to build.
The hard part about macro is to actually remember to hit those keys. If there was a cycling macro that build drones from hatcheries without deselecting your currently selected units, that would be different. Is it possible to do?
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in wc3 the entire community used macro keys to help operate the numpad. blizzard never had a problem with it. there is a history of this sort of thing .. ultimately my opinion is it will improve your game a tad but not the real important parts
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On April 20 2010 13:02 Punk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 13:00 Synwave wrote:
You need a macro to build an extractor? tehehe Mondays are awesome! Again that is because its a different button for each race, Refinery, extractor, assimilator.
i assume you didnt play sc:bw because sc2 hotkeys are easier then they were in sc1.
and also, its not that freakin hard to remember unless you have a learning disability
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On April 20 2010 13:00 Synwave wrote:
You need a macro to build an extractor? tehehe Mondays are awesome!
@OP even its a good idea... dont!
just learn the different keys and practice its not so hard.
i had no competive RTS exp before the sc2 beta at all (only played some sc on LAN with friends about 8 or more years ago..) and started with first optin wave: slow, unefficent and max 40apm average, bronze.
now after not even 2 month i know all hotkeys blind and my apm is about 100 average, top of gold.
just take your time and learn, its not hard and the outcome will be far better! sc2 learning curve is steep if you have some talent.
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I wouldn't really recommend it. I don't think it will improve your game much. If the macro keys really did, then the Korean progamers would have used it ages ago. So seeing that they aren't using macro keys at all and decided to use the manual hotkeys, I would say maybe stay off it.
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I guess it would be better if it was a macro for researches or upgrades. Anyway, I don't support this stuff since it's like a third-party program.
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How is this cheating... anyone can buy the keyboards, anyone can make macros, the game is still played by the person, the advantage, if any, is that you have to press one button instead of a couple to build units. The person still has to select the appropriate units to build anything (afaik no button allows you to select a drone that is active and even if there is, youll have to select an appropriate one). If you voted no, then you definately don't have an idea how it works.
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On April 20 2010 19:18 cognizantfire wrote:
I wouldn't really recommend it. I don't think it will improve your game much. If the macro keys really did, then the Korean progamers would have used it ages ago. So seeing that they aren't using macro keys at all and decided to use the manual hotkeys, I would say maybe stay off it.
They undoubtedly would if it weren't forbidden to externally modify the game or how it's played. Improving efficiency and comfort while removing required dexterity would be a very large advantage at their level of play. Maybe the playing field would be even if everyone were allowed, but KESPA had to draw the line somewhere and "no modifications" is a very obvious place to draw it. For example, you could use AutoHotkey to change the keys, but there's also an AutoHotkey script for Brood War that automates macroing similarly to MBS, cloning, smart-casting, and hotkey commands.
Since most of those are covered already in Starcraft 2, it would convey less of an advantage, obviously, but I can easily see how people would frown upon any sort of modifications in competitions with varying levels of vehemence.
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On April 20 2010 20:10 Koffiegast wrote:
How is this cheating... anyone can buy the keyboards, anyone can make macros, the game is still played by the person, the advantage, if any, is that you have to press one button instead of a couple to build units. The person still has to select the appropriate units to build anything (afaik no button allows you to select a drone that is active and even if there is, youll have to select an appropriate one). If you voted no, then you definately don't have an idea how it works.
By the same logic you employ anyone can download a maphack, therefor a maphack is not a cheat. It's actually a significant advantage if you've ever played at a high level. You can even go so far to remap your own registry to achieve some of effects on keys, and I don't think blizzard is ever going to be inspecting your registry.. So the real question is, where is the line? Blizzard seems to think it's any application which actually directly interacts with starcraft
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I don't agree with this either, but lets be realistic. Is this player doing this to gain a advantage to compete in a tournament? I don't think that is the goal, but this is only a assumption.
I do feel this will make you have to memorize additional keys, thus providing more harm then good. Unless you look at your keyboard often, which then is already causing you to lose time in game - which could be the difference in a W/L.
If blizzard says it is ok - Does it really matter? Does this provide *that* much of a macro advantage? I am unsure as I have never needed keyboard macros.
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EPT
