|
So after playing like 200 games in a week (got in last sat, was #1 gold prereset) with 75% of them as zerg and watching mucho replays i really doubt that ultralisks have any use at all right now. i mean evrytime i saw someone use ultras they just seem to throw away money and give the enemy a chance to comeback.
They require hive tech, require a extra building AND 2 upgrades to even be viable and do their job. they cost a shit ton and require standart ground upgrades to do anything (a 0-0 ultra is useless while a 0-0 cruiser/thor whatever is already very deadly).
so some say "hey its the super endgame unit of zerg! they should require all that!". well maybe. but if they cost so much and require so much tech they should atleast be good eh?
but they just fail in sc2 on all levels.
- they are SUPER slow. u have to crawl around the map so they can stay at front where they belong and can be outmicroed easily. flanking is UNpossible thx to their slow speed. and u cant "surround" with a ling/ultra army cause the lings will run ahead and die.
- no swarm. should be obvious.
- MASS high dmg/shot units evrywhere. ultras were such super tanks cause they negated the majority of the dmg of Ts/Ps backbone units (marines/zeals) with their high armor. no with evryone and their mother having high dmg attacks,bonus dmg,high range melt stuff in addition to the slow speed they seem to just die too fast. and if theat doesnt happen instantly the lings evaporate (collossus).
- also the standart "high dmg units" of sc1 were goons and tanks. both get superraped by lings.
- u cant combo ultras with any unit except lings cause of the insane gas cost.and it seems like p rapes lings with collosus and ultra/ling never was super great vs t without swarm.esp not now with 55hp rines and mixed in stimmable tanks.
-they are no "support" unit. if you spend all the time and ressources on the tech and unit you dont just want them to be a weird support thing for your hydras.
-broodlords own evrything for equal tech,no upgrades needed and a lower price.
-they look ugly  (
so ultralisks really just went from giant lightning fast superbugs of rape to wannabe elephants without the cool "i can just walk u dead lol" factor.
|
|
|
You realize that Ultras do splash now right? Everything in front of them in a significant radius takes the damage. I've seen two ultras destroy and entire protoss army almost by themselves since it was so stalker/zealot heavy. They also have a siege attack against buildings which does almost as much damage as a baneling blowing up. Theyr'e a specialized unit but they still ahve their uses.
|
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
|
I agree. I don't have beta and only used Ultras on a cracked version, but they still felt kinda weak even with their huge hp. Old Ultras were like ram tanks of rape while these Ultras are disappointing. But hey, it was on a cracked version and I haven't seen them used much. This is just my opinion based on the very little experience I have with them.
|
Yepp Broodlords>>>>Utralisk. Thats the real problem. Bliz could easily reduce the cost without hurting the overall balace of the game. But they do can have their uses in a few situations.
|
ultralisks are a great addition to your army as a damage soaker if you can get them. yeah, they are slow so you need to inch your army forward, having your lings in the same control group as the ultras and just a moving somewhere will make the lings get owned before the ultras get close yes. the thing with sc2 is that you need a totally balanced combination of units. you don't switch to solely ultra ling, you add ultralisks to an army of ling baneling hydra roach infestors and then you have an army that any terran will fear. however, due to the nature of the gas i wouldn't consider adding them unless I was running off of 3 bases and was sure i could get the upgrades for them. I normally have 3 evo chambers vs t anyway as it seems nessasary.
1740ish rated plat zerg before reset
|
Basically Ultras are still useful but they fufill a different role than they did in SC:BW they can't run up quickly to the front line and take lots of shots because focusfire from stalkers/immortas tanks/thor/marauder will drop them. But once they get into the enemy army they will tear it apart with their splash damage. So you have to be a lot less reckless with ultras in SC2 that doesn't mean they're a waste of money.
|
On March 28 2010 19:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
You realize that Ultras do splash now right? Everything in front of them in a significant radius takes the damage. I've seen two ultras destroy and entire protoss army almost by themselves since it was so stalker/zealot heavy. They also have a siege attack against buildings which does almost as much damage as a baneling blowing up. Theyr'e a specialized unit but they still ahve their uses.
ofc i know that. still i cant imagine one situation where commiting to ultraling is better then just going for mass roach/hydra(+infestor) and add a few broodlords for the siege ,constant high dps and even decent meatshield factor.
against most armies the enemy can just out"micro" them by hitnrunning them over and over again. z loses lings all the time while t laughs his ass off.and if a ultra really gets into a good position stimmed marauder focus melts it very fast.
and if a toss just masses zeal/stalkers vs ultraling he totally deserves to lose. its like saysing "i saw scouts totally owning terran! terrans firebat/tank heavy armie totally got destroyd!". well stupid example but u get the point ~
On March 28 2010 19:52 Sinep wrote:+ Show Spoiler +ultralisks are a great addition to your army as a damage soaker if you can get them. yeah, they are slow so you need to inch your army forward, having your lings in the same control group as the ultras and just a moving somewhere will make the lings get owned before the ultras get close yes. the thing with sc2 is that you need a totally balanced combination of units. you don't switch to solely ultra ling, you add ultralisks to an army of ling baneling hydra roach infestors and then you have an army that any terran will fear. however, due to the nature of the gas i wouldn't consider adding them unless I was running off of 3 bases and was sure i could get the upgrades for them. I normally have 3 evo chambers vs t anyway as it seems nessasary.
1740ish rated plat zerg before reset
On March 28 2010 19:54 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Basically Ultras are still useful but they fufill a different role than they did in SC:BW they can't run up quickly to the front line and take lots of shots because focusfire from stalkers/immortas tanks/thor/marauder will drop them. But once they get into the enemy army they will tear it apart with their splash damage. So you have to be a lot less reckless with ultras in SC2 that doesn't mean they're a waste of money.
well i just dont see the huge benefit. 1-2 ultras wont cut it and arent worth the tech. much more ultras arent possible esp if u want to go with hydras and infestors. also if we are talkin about such a super late maxed tech maxed supply games we have to consider thors,tanks and ravens etc also. and teched thors just super beat ultras 1 for 1. also some tank backup fire + moving mmm will kill any "support".
and vs toss we have to deal with immortals and collossi anyways. why go for all the trouble and limit your mobility (and maybe get ur ultras evaporated by immortal+collosus fire. high dmg units remember?) if you can just go for broodlords which may be able to harrass,focus key units down,will block and dps constantly and will live forever cause of their huge range.
i just dont see the point of it. sure u CAN make use of them. i dont doubt in any way that they can deal some good dps and do okish.
but i dont think its ever a superior choice cause 20 more hydras (not to mention broodlords) or whatever are better pretty much always.
its like the queen in sc1.sure it was neat and had some uses but at the end it was better to just spend the stuff elsewhere.
|
generally yes. But it might be a nice option against late game toss with storms and terran with HSM's
|
the main problem with ultras is that lings are garbage.
|
in endgame as a zerg u should pretty much have creep all over the map, at least in zvt
they r like hydra, really fuck slow on normal but super fast on creep
i think the real problem with ultralisk is that everyone seem to be upgrading range attack instead of melee so its impossible to make ultra late game beacuse they have +0 dmg
but seriously they have huge splash kills stuff soo quickly and insane hp and armor, they r hard counter to all small units
u dont even need zerglings in the mix, ultralisk themselves deal more dmg than the lings
300/200 for a guy with 600 hp and 3 default armor. in lategame u can just throw in a couple of ultralisk because both tanks and marines deal v little dmg against them compared to hydras. and then in the back u can have the hydra and infestor, they have much dmg but low hp. remember ultralisk is the only zerg unit which doesnt give a shit about hsm which is a big concern in tvz late game
the strongest late game combo should be ultra infester hydra broodlord
i actually think they r too good, but the game itself doesnt promote late game tech units such as carrier, ultra or bc
|
watch dimaga vs morrow in zotac 3 on steppes of war to see good usage of ultras vs tank/rine
|
They're especially shit vs protoss if he has sentries in his armies because they can completely shut out the ultras. I saw a game where zerg was winning vs toss, then he made ultras and lost.
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
u was never higher then c- in bw was u ?
|
they would probably be really strong in a nydus worm. let's imagine there's ultras in your base .. you're dealing with splash in cramped quarters, siege damage, the speed is a bit less of an issue.. It would be nice if they cost a bit less. I have faith blizzard will balance everything, though.
|
I guess vs T it's just marauders that are really the problem because they are a hard counter (especially with slow, you could theoretically take ultras out of the game completely with good micro) and they are almost always around.
And vs P the main problem is that the lings melt away in seconds and the ultras are alone (where they aren't that bad, but not good enough).
|
so ultras are slower in sc2 than they were in sc1? (on non-creep ofc)
Also, ultras can be combined with banelings/hydras, without forgetting to add couple infestors to the mix. Ultras were never the unit that tips advantage into your side and against protoss it always have been useless. If you are at great economical advantage, make ultras, if you're not, don't.
|
yep, hive is only good for are organic carapace and broodlords
|
if u build 2 ultras without any support they suck of course, like every other unit too. mix in ultras in the lategame and they are so damn strong together with your main army. seriously if u build one ultra and think "yes i won now" u play the wrong game.
yes marines/stalkers/range units can try to hit n run but z has the fastest units in the game and a group of speedlings prevent the opponent from running away.
people should stop this "my tier3 unit sucks, cause it doesnt make me win the game" thread. yesterday the BC was shit and today its the ultra. next thread the colossus sux cause it can be attacked by air and ground.
btw yesterday i watched the stream of an ally TvZ and the Z mixed in 3-4 Ultras and guess waht? they survived liked 20 tankshoots + attacks from 3/4 planetaryfortresses + stimed marines + marauders.
they kill the p meatshield in seconds so i dont get your problem really.
|
every game where I got ultras instead of broodlords, i lost.
|
hmmmm.. Yeah I'd like to see them get a buff. Less $$
|
yup a nydus drop with ultra's can really destroy a base, played a game where i had a toss contained with muta harass and then dropped like 4 ultra's in the back of his base. That was basically GG right there.
|
waste
User was warned for this post.
|
Like the other guy mentioned, search for the Dimaga games where he uses mass ultralisks. You do know who Dimaga is, right? He's the guy winning the most tournaments these days with zerg. He RAPES with ultralisks. It's scary rape.
You don't know what you're talking about if you think they suck that bad.
|
Broodlords provide a better meat shield, they're flying, cost roughly about the same, require the same tech and both are slow as dirt.
Ultra's are so expensive, even running 3 ~ 5 base endgame I still feel dumping all the money into ultra's is very badconsidering how I could double the size of my Hydra, speedling, baneling army.
Ultra's are horrible. Pre-reset I played 600 games and I used ultralisks in about 5 of them. 1 of the 5 I experienced ultralisk being effective but the Terran player was not good and attacking in small armies.
The unit is not bad but its not worth the minerals compared to other options you have. Agree
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
Nice troll.
Winning is fun, constant improving is fun. If you want to build units because they look fun do this in custom games...
Yes, ultralisks sadly are inferior to broodlords
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
If that's your mentality then give me your key.
Otherwise, stop trolling.
|
On March 28 2010 19:41 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:So after playing like 200 games in a week (got in last sat, was #1 gold prereset) with 75% of them as zerg and watching mucho replays i really doubt that ultralisks have any use at all right now. i mean evrytime i saw someone use ultras they just seem to throw away money and give the enemy a chance to comeback. They require hive tech, require a extra building AND 2 upgrades to even be viable and do their job. they cost a shit ton and require standart ground upgrades to do anything (a 0-0 ultra is useless while a 0-0 cruiser/thor whatever is already very deadly). so some say "hey its the super endgame unit of zerg! they should require all that!". well maybe. but if they cost so much and require so much tech they should atleast be good eh? but they just fail in sc2 on all levels. - they are SUPER slow. u have to crawl around the map so they can stay at front where they belong and can be outmicroed easily. flanking is UNpossible thx to their slow speed. and u cant "surround" with a ling/ultra army cause the lings will run ahead and die. - no swarm. should be obvious. - MASS high dmg/shot units evrywhere. ultras were such super tanks cause they negated the majority of the dmg of Ts/Ps backbone units (marines/zeals) with their high armor. no with evryone and their mother having high dmg attacks,bonus dmg,high range melt stuff in addition to the slow speed they seem to just die too fast. and if theat doesnt happen instantly the lings evaporate (collossus). - also the standart "high dmg units" of sc1 were goons and tanks. both get superraped by lings. - u cant combo ultras with any unit except lings cause of the insane gas cost.and it seems like p rapes lings with collosus and ultra/ling never was super great vs t without swarm.esp not now with 55hp rines and mixed in stimmable tanks. -they are no "support" unit. if you spend all the time and ressources on the tech and unit you dont just want them to be a weird support thing for your hydras. -broodlords own evrything for equal tech,no upgrades needed and a lower price. -they look ugly ( so ultralisks really just went from giant lightning fast superbugs of rape to wannabe elephants without the cool "i can just walk u dead lol" factor.
It is funny because one week ago I read a thread here at tl.net where a guy was complaining because ultra are op..
However i have still too few experiene (it means that i have enver seen an ultra yet) to be usefull in this discussion!
|
- u cant combo ultras with any unit except lings cause of the insane gas cost.and it seems like p rapes lings with collosus and ultra/ling never was super great vs t without swarm.esp not now with 55hp rines and mixed in stimmable tanks. - I strongly dissagree. Here is why. If i am not mistaken ultras cost 300/200/6 same as Colosus...... so if u are going for ultras u must be pretty much in mid-late game where u have roughly 2-3 expos(maybe a high-yield aswell) taking the fact that people aren't perfect in execution(flawed macro) by that time your resources could have skyrocketed and u could afford ultras and some other army. Lets compare this to Protoss early-mid game vs Terran where the standard build ( well for me) would be fast tech to colossi, which costs as I said 300/200/6. So the toss has to powering colossi/stalker/sentry/lots at first from one base, compared to a zerg whos is powering off 2-3 bases to support Ultra/Something-else combo.
- they are SUPER slow. u have to crawl around the map so they can stay at front where they belong and can be outmicroed easily. flanking is UNpossible thx to their slow speed. and u cant "surround" with a ling/ultra army cause the lings will run ahead and die.
- I dont think ultras should be used for flanking ... uhm they look more like tanks to me. I am not a zerg player but i think flanking should be done with something else - faster/ranged/baneling  . As for mobility if u dont have speed for ultras why don't u try ferrying them with ovvies which i think by the time u tech ultra should have been upgraded for speed and carrying. Zergs also have the nydus worm which as stated before me if used correctly could win you the game.
- MASS high dmg/shot units evrywhere. ultras were such super tanks cause they negated the majority of the dmg of Ts/Ps backbone units (marines/zeals) with their high armor. no with evryone and their mother having high dmg attacks,bonus dmg,high range melt stuff in addition to the slow speed they seem to just die too fast. and if theat doesnt happen instantly the lings evaporate (collossus). - Ultras are still super tanks when it comes to marine zeals, simply put they just a**rape'em. I feel about ultras the same way as i feel for colossi let them into the fight have them just hit 2-3 times which imo is enough to soften up the enemy army and while they are focus fired let your ranged/flanks/whatever do their job. Keep in mind they don't die as fast as colossi do (more hp/armor) so u can pull of more hits = more softned up army.
I am sorry for comparing Ultras to Colossi but I am a P player and really aren't very familiar with the in depth mechanics of the other 2 races.
- no swarm. should be obvious. There still are other zerg spell to use first thing that comes to mind is fungal growth. Bind the enemy units and if executed nicely they will be static targets for your ultras' splash and besides that FG deals some "aoe" as well, doesn't it .
I don't know if I am completely right on the topics mentioned but this is just my traing of thought.
|
On March 28 2010 20:11 Asta wrote:
I guess vs T it's just marauders that are really the problem because they are a hard counter (especially with slow, you could theoretically take ultras out of the game completely with good micro) and they are almost always around.
And vs P the main problem is that the lings melt away in seconds and the ultras are alone (where they aren't that bad, but not good enough).
Have you even played the beta? Utralisks are massive units, they cannot be slowed by marauders.
Play the game, until then stay out of the SC2 strategy forums. This goes to everyone.
|
I don't think ultralisks make very much sense.
1. Zerglings are no longer the best damage dealers. Thus, ultralisks dont share upgrades with your main damage dealer, the hydralisk.
2. 4 roaches have as much HP as one ultralisks, they have almost the same armor, deal more damage (ranged), they do share upgrades with the hydralisk, have this insane regeneration AND are 100 gas cheaper.
|
The difference between a colosus and an ultra, is that the collosus can do damage from the back of your army, it can walk over it without disruption, it can walk over cliffs. And colossus don't require you to wait for lair, hive and cavern to get them out.
It would be nice if ultras started out with more armour (at least 2). And I could swear liquipedia is wrong about their ground attack with upgrade (it says 18 (+4)). I'm pretty sure it is only 18 (+2). But the real problem is their pathing. Until that is fixed, sentries and ravens will make them useless by dropping turrets and shields all over the place.
|
Ultras need charge like Zealots
|
Sure they can be powerful when they get to their target. But honestly, pretty much anything can outrun it. Against ranged it is even worse, like a MMM ball the marauders just kill the ultras before they get nearby. And 'you shouldve dropped creep all over the map' isn't viable, because honestly... some maps are so big you require lots of minutes and micro to place it all over the map. The creep bonus seems fun and all, but when you realise that all your units might be better of with a 15% speed permanent buff instead of creep giving 30%... its not like creep tumors cant be killed or that overlords can be shot down.
Also, saying you should use fungal growth to make sure ultra get to the target just makes it even worse. I mean, do I really have to spend mins and gas on a unit that is pretty fragile can't use his fungal instantly with a low range that moves about as fast as ultras to make ultras viable? For that cost? Give colossus plz.
|
Ultras are awesome at killing light melee units. Other than that I try to get them because they look bad ass when they burrow and unburrow . Also they are great for totally destroying someones base in like 10 seconds.
|
if you've ever used like 10 ultras with max upgrades alongside a little support against a heavy terran bio build for example you wouldn't even think of making such a silly post. ultras are just plain awesome, altho they require a ton of tech and cash, I trully believe that they're an effective unit in some situations(maybe not in uberpr0 games tho).
I'll attach some replays of mine when I get a chance.
|
I like ultralisks, but they are difficult to get out. I think they're good, but the debate on my mind is if I'd rather spend the money on broodlords instead.
|
On March 28 2010 20:29 tubs wrote:
Like the other guy mentioned, search for the Dimaga games where he uses mass ultralisks. You do know who Dimaga is, right? He's the guy winning the most tournaments these days with zerg. He RAPES with ultralisks. It's scary rape.
You don't know what you're talking about if you think they suck that bad.
yea when ure going ultra in a game that u already have locked in usually you win.
usually, not always tho.
|
On March 28 2010 20:13 CharlieMurphy wrote:
every game where I got ultras instead of broodlords, i lost.
Funny that this is very similar with the "Greater Spire curse" in BW. In SC2, it's the "Ultralisk Cavern curse".
I have only used Ultralisks once though and it was pretty successful. It was ZvP. P army consisted of Zeal/Stalker/Sentry during midgame. Scouted his switch to Phoenix, then I decided to rush 2 ultralisks for my stable hydra/roach army. Then I felt nostalgia when my Ultralisk/Zergling army rolled him.
|
Broodlors are just a hell of a lot more effective due to the constant dps, range, cliff advantage, and "tanking" (distraction) perspective.
Ultras are effective vs light units but it just sucks that low level units like marauder and sentry are hard counters for something that takes you a ton of time / resources to get.
wra.
|
On March 28 2010 22:30 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 20:11 Asta wrote:
I guess vs T it's just marauders that are really the problem because they are a hard counter (especially with slow, you could theoretically take ultras out of the game completely with good micro) and they are almost always around.
And vs P the main problem is that the lings melt away in seconds and the ultras are alone (where they aren't that bad, but not good enough). Have you even played the beta? Utralisks are massive units, they cannot be slowed by marauders. Play the game, until then stay out of the SC2 strategy forums. This goes to everyone.
As a member of TL.net who HAS contributed to the Starcraft 2 beta discussion (e.g. here or here or here or here) without playing the beta, I'm well aware that not having played the game places important limitations on the kind of stuff you can talk about without making a fool out of yourself. However, if you understand the unit stats and have watched replays/videos, and are aware of the limitations your understanding of the game has, then you can add to the discussion.
So, I respectfully ask you to take your head out of your ass. Asking people to stop making useless posts is cool. Asking people to go away because they haven't been lucky enough to get into the beta is not.
|
On March 28 2010 22:30 Zoler wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2010 20:11 Asta wrote:
I guess vs T it's just marauders that are really the problem because they are a hard counter (especially with slow, you could theoretically take ultras out of the game completely with good micro) and they are almost always around.
And vs P the main problem is that the lings melt away in seconds and the ultras are alone (where they aren't that bad, but not good enough).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you even played the beta? Utralisks are massive units, they cannot be slowed by marauders.
Play the game, until then stay out of the SC2 strategy forums. This goes to everyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a member of TL.net who HAS contributed to the Starcraft 2 beta discussion (e.g. here or here or here or here) without playing the beta, I'm well aware that not having played the game places important limitations on the kind of stuff you can talk about without making a fool out of yourself. However, if you understand the unit stats and have watched replays/videos, and are aware of the limitations your understanding of the game has, then you can add to the discussion.
So, I respectfully ask you to take your head out of your ass. Asking people to stop making useless posts is cool. Asking people to go away because they haven't been lucky enough to get into the beta is not.
Agreed... fine to dissagree but lets be nice about it, thanks
|
ultras when built in the right situations are complete ownage and WELL worth the cost of building them. 2 ultras> 20 zealots or so.
they arnt that endgame unit that pwns everything that you MUST get
|
The worst part of Ultras, even worse than the fact that they are a huge money sink and pretty useless compared to broodlords, is the sound they make when they attack.
Did they record that shit with a pair of scissors or something?
|
I totally agree. I think the approach developers want you to take is not to mass them - build but a handful and add to the mix in your army.
|
I've found them useful from time to time... I had a game where the Protoss player was extremely zealot and stalker heavy late game. Broodlords would have been ineffective, as the stalkers would blink and snipe them. Ultras backed with hydras did the job very nicely, and also let me push the attack to his base with no problems,as his wall-in and cannons were taken down a lot faster by ultras than Broodlords would have been able to.
They are a situational unit, but I'm OK with that. I don't think we need to see every unit in every game. It should be a "Oh wow" moment when you see Ultras.
|
I'm torn whether or not to build brood lords every game instead of ultras, but i do agree that it is now a situational unit more then anything.
|
Ultras aren't a waste, they are simply more situational than they were in BW, for a few different reasons:
1.Ultras cost 200 gas, same as in BW. But SC2 is a different game resource-wise. Gas is much more scarce in SC2 than it was in BW. For example, in BW, the general rule was to start pumping ultras once you got 4 bases worth of gas. Well in SC2, 4 bases worth of gas is 8 geysers, which requires twenty-four drones dedicated to gas. In addition, mined out geysers stop working completely, unlike in BW where they simply return less per trip.
2. Hydras & roaches are both very strong all-purpose units, so ranged upgrades are very good in SC2. Also, due to gas scarcity, going for 3 evo chamber upgrades is not really viable.
3. Ultras are hard-countered more easily in SC2 than they were in BW, especially in ZvT. Marauders, Thors, & Immortals all counter ultras, and I don't think I've ever seen an ultralisk in a ZvZ match.
4. Ultras are really only good once they get all of their upgrades. However due to reason #2, most people don't bother getting melee upgrades, instead getting ranged upgrades.
5. The broodlord is available at Hive, and doesn't require upgrades to be great, unlike the ultralisk.
6. No dark swarm in SC2 means that zerg's late-game melee isn't as strong as it was in BW.
|
You do need full upgrades and if you can get them without losing you are pretty much winning anyway.
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
Funny that you say so, because SC2 has gotten quite a large number of people jobs and girlfriends (even if only for 1 night girlfriend) but yeah SC2 never gets me a drink, FUCK. It's more prone to launch a match while I'm up getting one.
|
No one has mentioned the lack of scourge yet in SC2. I feel like this is the main reason that the Ultraling-style army does not work. Lack of swarm does contribute, but the thing is, you really need some anti-air with all the good air units that are available to Terran. If you seriously invest in Ultraling in SC2, Terran is just gonna massacre your supply by building a tiny amount of Vikings and spending the rest of the gas on Ravens (which will, if unhindered, just splat your ground army all over the... ground). Having an Ultra vs. Raven gas battle seems like a bad idea from a Zerg perspective.
In SC2, there is an interesting new concept with air units. Many of them can only attack air. The Devourer in BW does this as well, but it's not quite as prevalent, since you have to turn mutalisks into them (and it's only after Hive+1 tech). This is a very subtle change that makes a massive difference in battles.
Think about a Terran army vs. a Protoss army. Terran has Marines and Marauders, maybe a Ghost or two, and some Vikings. Protoss has Zealots, some Stalkers/Sentries, and a Colossus or two. What happens when these armies a-move into each other? The Vikings devastate the Colossus. It's because they can only attack air. When you a-move them, the only units that they see are the Colossus.
This is a big deal in ZvT as well. If you have Corruptors, the only units they see are Medivacs, Ravens, and Vikings. Corruptors also can be transitioned very nicely on-the-fly into BLs which just own ground armies hard.
Thinking about ZvT from this perspective, the Ultralisk just seems like the Terran Battlecruiser in BW.
|
Ultras are an endgame battering ram, if you can get them into an enemy base that base is finished. I've only lost once to Ultras (in a 50 minute game on Kulas) but it was really devastating when they rolled through, ridiculously hard to kill and once inside my base it was over because I had to either let all my prod buildings die or lift them off and stop all production and lose to reinforcements. In the event I tried to keep producing but my base was destroyed and that was the game, even though I ended up killing all the Ultras.
|
Broodlords are better, and if you went mutas it is a logical followup. Even with terran players going mass viking some of the time, broodlords can't be hurt by marauder or tank, which late game terran armies are heavy on. Not sure about their use in ZvP though.
|
Ultras are not like in sc1. In sc1, ultras were a standard late game unit, but in sc2, ultras are more of a specialized unit. If you opponent is going heavy zealots or lings, go ultras. Cleave is absolutely devastating vs melee.
|
I think you can trump the weakness of Ultras to two main factors:
1) Tier 1.5-2 provides some nice hard counters to them (Roach, Immortal, Sentry, Marauder).
2) Roaches do the tanking job as well and much sooner. Also you can expect roaches to be more heavily upgraded (since most zerg go ranged upgrades now a days). And of course, you can get organic carapace at hive to make them even better.
While I won't say the ultra is useless in the current gameplay we are seeing I don't think they will find heavy use. But SC has had major shifts in gameplay before, and that could cause new unit combinations that then favor teh ultra.
|
Ultras are good, but there are too many cheap counters for it. Steamed marauders melt ultras, and sentries prevent them from reaching the enemy.
|
There are a number of issues that surround Ultra's not being as popular:
First: They evolved to counter everything that gave them trouble in SC:BW, that is: splash damage for smaller units like lots/rines/goons (kinda) and siege damage to take down building walls which used to give them trouble, the higher min cost just accounts for more DPS/Health. However; T/P evolved as well:
-Hard counter units marauders and immortals which are by design only to fight armoured units yet they are so powerful that they are used in pretty much any standard army. Some armies are pure marauder and no marines even when they are fighting light units. (Albeit because of banelings) So Ultras get crushed by armies that have their natural counter.
-Gas is much more rare in SC2. That is, you need double drones to get gas so it usually takes players longer to get both of them. SC:BW was often fought with pure gas units like lurker defiler and muta and ultra fit well into that.
-In sc:bw (adrenal glands) zerglings had amazing damage but they were too low hp and vulnerable to splash to really get in melee range for long enough, Ultras were the perfect shields and solid units too, zerglings are much less effective in comparison.
-Because units like stalkers and marines are pretty weak in general, anti air is not often present in armies. This makes the broodlord a super attractive (corruptors can deal with other air units) choice compared to ultralisk. Guardians were really low health and thus weak to spells such as irridiate and storm, and wraiths took them down fast. Broodlords have lots of health.
Also; compare a colossus, the same cost, with an ultra. A colossus can completely turn a battle around if ignored, 1 ultra can just get eaten up by a standard army easily. Colossus' are also faster to tech to. Broodlords also easily change the flow of a game, suddenly you need anti air units which are weak vs ground units in SC2. (Exception: Hydralisks).
This 'problem' will only remain so long as marauders and immortals are so powerful and stalkers and marines are so weak. (Relatively.)
.
|
Alrighty, so general consensus is that ultralisks are pretty weak.
So... how do you all propose we change them? What are the real issues causing them to be useless currently?
Personally I think they could benefit from two minor changes. Firstly, give them a minor speed boost. Not a huge one, but just enough to let them be a little less sluggish. Secondly, allow them to use their headbutt attack on massive units. An ultralisk is almost as tall as a colossus, and probably has three times the mass. It really shouldn't just swipe at it with those big claws that do surprisingly little damage. Charge head first into it and smack it!
Ultras in BW were fantastic tanks. Like stated above, their high armor really defended them against marines and zealots, and their massive HP helped soak up storms. They allow the little angry rabbits known as cracklings to get close and murder everything in sight. One base armor is pretty meh, and fully upgraded an ultralisk has 6 armor. That's fantastic against marines and zealots, but more or less worthless against marauders and immortals. I've seen marauders eat ultras alive these days. Since late game PvZ and TvZ armies rely less on mass marines or zealots, and more on marauders/tanks/colossi, ultras are less effective at soaking up damage. While their splash damage slaughters small units, small units seem to be less present in late game battles where you might actually have access to ultras.
The fact that broodlords outshine them in every way is troubling, but imho not the heart of the problem. They should perform different roles. Right now the broodlings spawned from the flying mustaches of doom act as mini tanks, do a little extra damage, and seriously screw up AI. Ever had broodlings land on your marines when you have tanks in your army? It ends poorly for basically everyone involved.
Well, those are my thoughts. So, instead of bitching about how OP broodlords are, (and I agree, they're pretty fucking strong), or how shitty and worthless ultras are, let's come up with some ideas/suggestions on what might fix them!
edit: another quick thought. Perhaps let them just fucking stomp over forcefields? "Oh you made a little kinetic barrier? That's cool, I'm 20 stories tall and weigh 40 tonnes. I'm going to walk through it now."
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never ... make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
Depends on how old they are.
Anyway, I don't think that balancing the endgame units is or should be a priority right now, especially fixing them being underpowered and not worth buliding.
You can't balance the midgame tech until you've balanced the early game tech, and you can't balance the endgame tech until you've balanced the midgame tech.
The early game units have to balanced to each other, the midgame units have to be balanced with each other and the early game units, the endgame units have to be balanced with everything in the game.
Every time you tweak the earlier units to fix balance issues between them, it screws up the balance with the later units, so lategame tech balance is naturally going to be one of the things that gets sorted out last.
I'm not seeing a lot of ultralisks, thors, battlecruisers, or carriers, and that's fine by me when units like stalkers and roaches and basic production facilities like reactors are getting tweaked all the time.
|
They aren't the same unit as in BW... I totally feel for the loss of the ultra-ling combo in SC2... but really... there is other stuff you can do...
If you can distract your opponent with an attack, I'd imagine 2 of these in a an SCV or Probe line would just, like blink them all out in a few swings. That splash damage is going to really hurt.
More of a tactical unit now I think, mixed in with a large army for a good shield vs melee. Broodlords are really better for heavy assault I think... and Ultras wont be a unit to mass in endgame unless you're already WAY ahead.
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 28 2010 19:59 Sfydjklm wrote:
the main problem with ultras is that lings are garbage.
This, really.
Requiring the speed and armor upgrades really isn't that different from SC1. The real difference is that by hive tech, you would have been pumping the ranged upgrade all the way, rather than the melee one in SC2.
|
The ultralisk is one of the best units in the game dude. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they are weak. Maybe it is from the lack of experience with them?
In any case while yes they are not gonna be a key unit for you to win the game they are definitely a finnishing unit used to finnish off your opponent after crippling him. 200 gas does not seem like alot to me to be honest if you can get 3 bases running ultras should be no problem for you. Depending on the situation of course I prefer going broodlords as they can attack from both air and ground.
My suggestion is to go roaches, hydras and banelings with infestor and then stop producing hydras and make more banelings. With that you have fungal growth and the banelings softening up his bio army and static defenses, the roaches as meat shield and support units and the ultras as the killing blow.
|
I used ultras against P recently and it worked out pretty well. Part of that is that I had saved up a butt-ton of minerals and gas, had 4 bases with saturated workers on minerals and gas while he had only 2.
But still, he had a large army and mine was small but right as he started moving out, my ultras popped out and changed it all. I will say though that immortals >>> Ultras unless you way outpower him.
The only other time I got an ultra, it was right before I died and I made 1 un-upgraded ultra who proceeded to single handedly slaughter 32 lings and almost 2 hydras (1 hit away).
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +See the kill count above
+ Show Spoiler +
Ultras absolutely dominate small massable units due to huge AOE damage. It took like 5 swipes to kill 32 lings.
|
On March 29 2010 04:00 G3nXsiS wrote:
The ultralisk is one of the best units in the game dude. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they are weak. Maybe it is from the lack of experience with them?
In any case while yes they are not gonna be a key unit for you to win the game they are definitely a finnishing unit used to finnish off your opponent after crippling him. 200 gas does not seem like alot to me to be honest if you can get 3 bases running ultras should be no problem for you. Depending on the situation of course I prefer going broodlords as they can attack from both air and ground.
My suggestion is to go roaches, hydras and banelings with infestor and then stop producing hydras and make more banelings. With that you have fungal growth and the banelings softening up his bio army and static defenses, the roaches as meat shield and support units and the ultras as the killing blow.
200 gas is ALOT esp since your recommended roaches,hydras and infestors all cost gas too.
have fun having 2k minerals and 0 gas.
also why the hell would anyone spend the tech and the 2 upgrades just too have a mediocre finishing unit when he could have mass mass more core units or the almighty "ur fucked" broodlord way faster and be more effective in battle?
there is no reason to get ultras at all. thats the prob. cause evry other choice is better. and they are easily countered. but u cant counter broodlords so easy. and u def cant counter 20 more hydras/roaches knocking at ur door.
i have never seen or playd a game where ultralisks made any difference. but i have seen many many games where a z with 4 vs 2 bases almost lost cause he used ultras instead of pumping useful units.
and even if they were decently buff they are still super situational cause the lings(which u have to build on mass if u dont want to end up on 3k+ minerals) are crap compared to sc1 and tultras are countered super easy
|
On March 29 2010 03:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2010 19:59 Sfydjklm wrote:
the main problem with ultras is that lings are garbage. This, really. Requiring the speed and armor upgrades really isn't that different from SC1. The real difference is that by hive tech, you would have been pumping the ranged upgrade all the way, rather than the melee one in SC2.
This kind of thing is why I am still not a fan of splitting upgrades between melee/ranged, infantry/mech, air/ground.
There's enough tech inertia with specialized production facilities, tech buildings, and special ability research without having your general upgrades apply to only certain classes of units.
|
ultras have splash and can burrow which >>> BW ultras. You say "omg teching and upgrades" wtf did you do in BW? get your ultras and start upgrades? no you had builds like 3 hatch muta into lurker contain getting your +1 cara for your ultras at the end of the game. ultralisks just haven't been figured out a good strat yet, like MOST of the units in SC2 cause its the beta and these things will take time.
|
agree. ultras don't fit in with the tech viable patterns at all.
|
I find adding a few ultras to the normal midgame army as a transition to lategame to be very helpful... the Ultras get targeted first by your opponent, which allows the rest of your units to move in (hydra/baneling/infestor).
Makes Fungal Growth + Baneling on lategame army much easier IMO.
|
They have their own little niche. Like vs mass ravens as damage soakers. But in my opinion they are just too big atm. And easily countered by Thors. They are only viable in open terrain because of their size the enemy can just hide behind buildings or mineral lines and pick them off easy with ranged with minimal losses. The splash damage is fine and all but whats the use if you rarely can get them all attacking at the same time? I cry for BUFF.
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 29 2010 04:20 Funchucks wrote:
This kind of thing is why I am still not a fan of splitting upgrades between melee/ranged, infantry/mech, air/ground.
There's enough tech inertia with specialized production facilities, tech buildings, and special ability research without having your general upgrades apply to only certain classes of units.
From a balance standpoint though, it's much easier to work with these kinds of upgrades. Having split upgrades allows you to fine-tune the strength of specific units/unit groups at specific points in the game, without having as much concern for how it would adversely affect other units.
Plus it's hard to rationalize from a flavor perspective how a generalized "armor" upgrade happens to all at once boost infantry, vehicle, and air armor all at once. And single, sweeping upgrades just wouldn't feel like Starcraft.
|
On March 29 2010 04:20 Funchucks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2010 03:57 TheYango wrote:On March 28 2010 19:59 Sfydjklm wrote:
the main problem with ultras is that lings are garbage. This, really. Requiring the speed and armor upgrades really isn't that different from SC1. The real difference is that by hive tech, you would have been pumping the ranged upgrade all the way, rather than the melee one in SC2. This kind of thing is why I am still not a fan of splitting upgrades between melee/ranged, infantry/mech, air/ground. There's enough tech inertia with specialized production facilities, tech buildings, and special ability research without having your general upgrades apply to only certain classes of units.
that "inertia" is only applicable early/midgame. late-game those things are almost negligible. imagine in TvZ if you could instantly switch from SK Terran to 3/3 Tanks as soon as zegs started pumping ultras. I like the fact that you actually have to invest something to do tech switches, especially in the case of zerg, who need all of 1 building to switch all their production
|
I don't get people saying you should mix a few in as support. considering how much you have to spend to get them going that doesn't make sense. If you're going to burn a gazillion minerals on the required tech you want to maximize the return on your investment. The more you make the easier it is to justify. Only get a few... and it's very hard to do so...
|
[B]
edit: another quick thought. Perhaps let them just fucking stomp over forcefields? "Oh you made a little kinetic barrier? That's cool, I'm 20 stories tall and weigh 40 tonnes. I'm going to walk through it now."
Might be a little gimmiky, but you could give teh ultra an ability called "unstoppable". The ultra can not be slowed or immobilized by any spell, effect. This would include forcefields.
Probably the first thing to do would be to work with their core stats. More health, more armor, more speed, more damage, lower cost, lots of things you can do to work with it.
|
Aren't ultra needed for tanking? I think in BW progamers only upgrade carapace so melee upgrade isn't really necessary. At least in BW ultra aren't damage dealers, they're here to take the hits with their 5 armor.
Why the same not possible in Sc2?
|
On March 29 2010 05:20 Squallcloud wrote:
Aren't ultra needed for tanking? I think in BW progamers only upgrade carapace so melee upgrade isn't really necessary. At least in BW ultra aren't damage dealers, they're here to take the hits with their 5 armor.
Why the same not possible in Sc2?
Stimmed Marauders and Immortals thats why. The problem I see is that the new counter system does not work with the original BW units.
|
10387 Posts
Looks to me they just need to find a way to make a melee-based army for zerg viable. Ultra/Ling/Infestor sounds like it'd be fun to watch
|
I am never going to get over the fact that a column of charging ultralisks has to stop to attack one single tiny marine standing in its way. Or, for that matter, that zerglings can't climb over stationary tanks, or that zealots chopping away at units with laser swords have no effect on their ability to fire accurately at distant targets.
Unit trample was demonstrated all the way back in Dune 2, by tanks and spice harvesters. I don't know what Blizzard has against it.
Maybe in Starcraft 3 we'll get units grappling, shoving, climbing, and stomping on each other. Until then, however well balanced any oversized melee unit is, it's not going to provide the sense of terrible destructive momentum you'd expect.
|
ultras should be a good meat shield for infestors. if you can get off some mind controls on thors / immortals, that should help keep the ultras alive.
|
vs T ultra is countered by maradeurs very badly, and maradeur is like the most used unit in terran army.
vs P they are ok unless P has many immortas, but broodlords are better.
|
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 29 2010 05:25 Funchucks wrote:
I am never going to get over the fact that a column of charging ultralisks has to stop to attack one single tiny marine standing in its way. Or, for that matter, that zerglings can't climb over stationary tanks, or that zealots chopping away at units with laser swords have no effect on their ability to fire accurately at distant targets.
Unit trample was demonstrated all the way back in Dune 2, by tanks and spice harvesters. I don't know what Blizzard has against it.
Maybe in Starcraft 3 we'll get units grappling, shoving, climbing, and stomping on each other. Until then, however well balanced any oversized melee unit is, it's not going to provide the sense of terrible destructive momentum you'd expect.
Very true. I'd be very content if Ultralisks could just ignore, say, light units and just trample them or something :3
|
Ultralisks are simply horrible right now.
People suggested to take a look at dimagas game against morrow? Are you kidding me?
5 (1 golden minerals) bases vs. 3 for the majority of the game. Of course in favor of Dimaga.
And yes, instead of finishing the game 10mins earlier with broodlords he finally ran the terrains marine/siege tanks (with only 2 armor upgrades on the marines, nothing for the tanks) with 3-3-3 utralisks. Wow! What a prove -.-
It has already been said why they suck so hard but once again I want to mention how incredible useless this unit is against a Protoss army containing few Immos -.-
|
On March 29 2010 04:58 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2010 04:20 Funchucks wrote:On March 29 2010 03:57 TheYango wrote:On March 28 2010 19:59 Sfydjklm wrote:
the main problem with ultras is that lings are garbage. This, really. Requiring the speed and armor upgrades really isn't that different from SC1. The real difference is that by hive tech, you would have been pumping the ranged upgrade all the way, rather than the melee one in SC2. This kind of thing is why I am still not a fan of splitting upgrades between melee/ranged, infantry/mech, air/ground. There's enough tech inertia with specialized production facilities, tech buildings, and special ability research without having your general upgrades apply to only certain classes of units. that "inertia" is only applicable early/midgame. late-game those things are almost negligible. imagine in TvZ if you could instantly switch from SK Terran to 3/3 Tanks as soon as zegs started pumping ultras. I like the fact that you actually have to invest something to do tech switches, especially in the case of zerg, who need all of 1 building to switch all their production
If you want to switch to air and be equal in upgrades, it's "only" 1200/1200, almost half what a gas geyser has, which would be enough for 5 carriers.
I wouldn't call it negligible, but just a slight cost decrease would improve things significantly(and more than slight on the toss shield upgrade).
|
Ultras really bad. In any situation with ultras you would be better served just making other units.
SC2 = Very favored towards mass ranged unit game
|
On March 29 2010 05:25 Funchucks wrote:
I am never going to get over the fact that a column of charging ultralisks has to stop to attack one single tiny marine standing in its way. Or, for that matter, that zerglings can't climb over stationary tanks, or that zealots chopping away at units with laser swords have no effect on their ability to fire accurately at distant targets.
Unit trample was demonstrated all the way back in Dune 2, by tanks and spice harvesters. I don't know what Blizzard has against it.
Maybe in Starcraft 3 we'll get units grappling, shoving, climbing, and stomping on each other. Until then, however well balanced any oversized melee unit is, it's not going to provide the sense of terrible destructive momentum you'd expect.
That's a great idea. Nukes should also have 10 times the radius and deal 5k damage at the center and graded damage outward. Then we'll have the sense of terrible destructive momentum we expect.
|
I just used them to win my last two games. I think it is possible that the reason they seem to suck is that everyone waits until extreme late game to get them. It would be like if you got unupgraded collosus 15 minutes into the game and then complaining that they die to tank fire really quickly. Well that's true, but that doesn't mean collosus aren't powerful.
The two games in question I rushed to hive in a zvz for roach regen, which worked gangbusters, then started pulling out the ultras, since it was only another 150 for the cavern.
The last one, I teased roach until I could see what the opponent was going for, mass stalkers. The roaches held their ground against the stalkers pretty well, and left more than enough time for ultras to come out. From then on it was ultra ling with a smattering of zerglings. His immortals were tough but the zerglings really make them waste shots.
|
I once had 10+ ultralisks in a game I had already won, but even with ling support, then got absolutely STOMPED vs a MMM army. I'm talking about a typical ball you see (no siege tank support or shit). All the guy did was stim + focus fire + run a bit back because marauder slowdown stopped them. I'm talking about ~15 mauraders ~20 marines and a few medivacs vs 10 ultras and around 20 lings. Yes the ultras eventually won but I only had like 2 left. There's no way to possibly flank because of how the goddamn maps are right now... the entire maps are all choked up. There is no open field... this was on Desert Oasis btw.
|
no they are not. so many people freak out when they see them.
get the armor upgrade and put them in the front of your army they will be targeted leaving your ranged units to pwn others
-Zabestrial
|
saying ultras suck because "marauders can easily focusfire them down" is soo retarded my head almost explodes.... its kind off what they are supposed to be doing, take dmg...duerp
edit: they are fine, no change needed.
|
marauder doesnt slow them down.
Either way, ultras just suck for the cash and effort youve to put into them. If lings were even somewhat better, and ultras wouldnt bug so big time (allow them to walk over units with size of a rine/lings for example, but not stalker/infestor/hydra) they wouldve been a lot better.
|
On April 07 2010 05:17 arnold(soTa) wrote:
saying ultras suck because "marauders can easily focusfire them down" is soo retarded my head almost explodes.... its kind off what they are supposed to be doing, take dmg...duerp
edit: they are fine, no change needed.
Too bad that they die in 2 volleys of like 15 marauders.
Marauders are the root problem of everything!
|
Ultralisks are sort of what archons were in SC1. They aren't meant to be spammed but are good aoe and tanker.
|
The reason why ultralisks is because they lack dark swarm versus terran and the existence of immortals in PvZ.
|
I've seen ultralisks tear through armies, but if cost is any consideration at all (that is, you have fewer than 5 bases and/or < 100 drones), I'd much prefer Broodlords.
Ultralisks only demolish things when you have a ton of money (so you can get a huge number of them), and a ton of time (so you can get all of those upgrades out before you are forced to fight). But if you're that far ahead that you can get such a huge econ advantage and have the time, it's probably easier to just go Broodlords and win a lot earlier.
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
if only starcraft 2 would do those things, i would marry it.
|
i think they should come with amour or speed upgrade w/o research
|
I think the real issue is that ultras are great....
Once they are 3/3 and have speed and plating upgraded.
|
Morrow put it well you have to have creep to get the ultras about the map.
They won't win you the game the second they come out as they are a very late game unit that need upgrades & creep to get into position. They are great mixed in for drops/nydus sneaky attacks to tank for dps units and take the odd undefended expansion.
I think used with a small dps force to snipe expansions early in the upgrades as they are very good too siege buildings even without upgrades.
You definately seem to need to transition into them as just like in SC1 if you spam Ultra asap with no sense you run yourself dry when you could have held and been solid playing for a longer game. I think Chill did some videos explaining his transitioning and style from lurker/ling to ultra etc.
They will definately find a way into SC2 games every now and then but broodlords are so much better then Guardians where they they are viable as you already get Corruptors vs Collosus and any terran air shenanigans.
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
Thanks for sharing I guess...
|
On March 29 2010 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:
I once had 10+ ultralisks in a game I had already won, but even with ling support, then got absolutely STOMPED vs a MMM army. I'm talking about a typical ball you see (no siege tank support or shit). All the guy did was stim + focus fire + run a bit back because marauder slowdown stopped them. I'm talking about ~15 mauraders ~20 marines and a few medivacs vs 10 ultras and around 20 lings. Yes the ultras eventually won but I only had like 2 left. There's no way to possibly flank because of how the goddamn maps are right now... the entire maps are all choked up. There is no open field... this was on Desert Oasis btw.
Try flanking.
|
On March 28 2010 19:41 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:-they look ugly (
WAT?
They may have other problems but they are mega awesome looking.
|
Since ultras are slow, try creeping the map. Also try healing them with Transfusion.
You don't actually need a mass of ultras, you just need a few ultras with good, cheap and durable queen support.
|
does anyone actually have a replay from platinum of ultralisks not sucking and not being completely useless?
|
People should stop trying to go mass ultra. It would be like going mass collosus or mass immortal. It just doesn't make sense, you don't have that much money, and your opponent would hard counter you.
Ten ultras is too many. You aren't even going to be able to get half of them into the fight and the remainders will crowd out whatever else you have. Try just 2 or 3, with a lot of support from other units, mainly zerglings but with hydra support. And pull them back when they are wounded, you wouldn't throw away an immortal or a tank, why would you throw away a wounded ultra?
I just beat another gold player 20 minutes ago with ultras. He roasted my entire hydra ling army of at least 100 supply while zealots took all the damage and then razed my nat then started going to town on my main. Then the ultras started popping in pairs and the remnants of his army just dropped like flies. He would focus the ultras, then some speedlings would pop and do tons of damage.
I want to see some platinum players at least try out ultras.
|
The problem with zerg is that every unit costs gas except lings and overlords, that being said, you end up with a lot of minerals and few gas, there is no possible way to use them vs protoss because you can only make ultraling,storms or colossi are going to rape your lings while immortals + FF are going to make your ultras useless, maybe vs terran it is ok but only if he goes MnMnM and not mech. Also reaching the lategame with unupgraded hydras or roaches is nearly imposible (maybe a baneling/ling combo) and ultras without upgrades are not that good...
|
Canada5565 Posts
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
I think you haven't been following BW LOL
|
On April 07 2010 10:47 Battle wrote:
The problem with zerg is that every unit costs gas except lings and overlords, that being said, you end up with a lot of minerals and few gas, there is no possible way to use them vs protoss because you can only make ultraling,storms or colossi are going to rape your lings while immortals + FF are going to make your ultras useless, maybe vs terran it is ok but only if he goes MnMnM and not mech. Also reaching the lategame with unupgraded hydras or roaches is nearly imposible (maybe a baneling/ling combo) and ultras without upgrades are not that good...
T have Marine/Hellion.
P have Zealot.
T/P units cost more gas on average than Z units. Especially T.
|
Random question, do Ultras get a movement bonus on Creep?
|
On April 07 2010 12:45 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Random question, do Ultras get a movement bonus on Creep?
ALL zerg units except drones get a movement bonus on creep.
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job...
Thats actually not true =P
Ultras vs Zealots/Marines is actually pretty hilarious. Ultras win by such a huge margin.
|
On April 07 2010 13:10 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 12:45 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Random question, do Ultras get a movement bonus on Creep? ALL zerg units except drones get a movement bonus on creep.
that ^
(didnt know the drone bit tho....)
also, creep is nondiscriminatory as to which side the zerg unit is on
there is no "mine" and "yours" creep
|
Im not sure about useful but blocking a ramp with an ultra while your hydra/ling destroys the expansion is pure unadulterated fun!
In ladder I've yet to find a consistent use for them. It isn't that they suck but it seems nearly impossible to safely tech to them without cutting your army up to small. As many have pointed out, broodlords costs for cost are just far superior specifically because they aren't trapped in chokes, you can fly them up a cliff to help keep them alive etc.
Imagine if the colossus couldnt walk over cliffs or its own army. That ability to maneuver is what makes them so viable and on top of that they are a (extremely with upgrade) ranged unit. Consider that an ultra is melee and is blocked by terrain, its own units, a random rock (they seem to get hung up on things constantly) and suddenly their awesomeness diminishes.
I love them and try to use them whenever I can get away with it but to be quite honest everytime I know I would be better served making a broodlord.
|
I think in the Lategame, especially VS Terran, Ultralisks are very useful - I rly don't know why they aren't being played that much. especially when you have lots of Upgraded Speedlings and lots of creep all around the Map, Ultras just plow through the Terran army.
|
I would say that the major problem here is the amount of units with + damage to armored units, I mean, pretty much whatever you face is bound to have a bunch of anti-armored units making it way to easy to just single them out and take em down real quick.
|
they suck cuz zerglings suck in sc2 if zerglings were strong like they were in sc1 ultralisks would be overpowered in this game i see ultras as a defensive unit since they can burrow or offensive using the nydus
|
On March 28 2010 19:48 Voyager wrote:
Starcraft 2 will never get you a job, it will never make the girl of your dreams love you, it will never bring you a refreshing beverage if you are thirsty, or make your kids stop crying in the middle of the night.
If you think the ultralisk looks cool, and are fun to play and run around with, build one....build a couple.
because at the end of the day, it's a game, and games are about having fun.
User was warned for this post.
Starcraft 2 brought me a Sprite just yesterday. I'm sure Blizzard will have it patched to Green Tea by launch.
|
Yeah lings just don't seem as effective late game and that really hurts when trying to go ultralisks. Does anyone notice adrenaline glands being hardly noticeable when upgraded? If someone has the DPS of a crackling vs a normal zergling, I'd be interested in seeing the comparison. Really think buffing the attack speed bonus from adrenaline glands would give zerglings a much needed late game boost. This would make utralisks a bit more appealing, as well as giving us another reason to tech to hive (not too many reasons right now).
That being said I think an hp regeneration upgrade (similar to roaches) at the ultralisk caveren would be sweet. Imagine the tanks those things would be with super regenerating life.
|
well... there a queen's transfusion..
i wouldn't mind a queen structure, tier 2 probably, to research off-creep movement speed and... i suppose starting energy.
... in order to turn it into a more offensive unit mid/late game
currently it has 1.5 speed and a 1.7 creep-multiplier
hydralisk has 2.25 speed and a 1.5 creepmod
roach, too has 2.25 speed but a 1.3 creepmod
|
queen isn't supposed to be an offensive unit. it's zergs macro mechanic.
the idea in the other thread is better. switching transfusion to the infestor
|
I've yet to see a single high-level Replay where Ultralisks were indeed useful.
All I saw was one game where Dimaga used it against Morrow. However he dominated the whole game and had 3 more expos.
No wonder his fully upgraded Ultralisks where finally able to break through Morrows 0-0 Marines and Tanks...
|
On April 07 2010 19:21 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
I've yet to see a single high-level Replay where Ultralisks were indeed useful. Its not like this game has been out let alone out for several years for you to be able to even legitimately say that with any credibility. Not to mention how many good players are there out there right now? if you only have a handful of players its not unthinkable some really powerful strategies or just simply units are just being ignored since the players just never thought of them or do not wish to use them. We're human, the other guy gets planes we get planes, the other guy gets tanks we get tanks.
|
Cool story bro but it makes little to no sense. Also there are a tons of skilled players already.
|
On April 07 2010 22:00 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
Cool story bro but it makes little to no sense. Also there are a tons of skilled players already.
It's .. very relative and what depends on what you actually consider good, a year from now and all the current top players will be considered terrible newbies. No one in the world has yet found the most optimal ways to use certain units let alone builds that would allow one specific unit to be used well.
|
Last time I'll go off topic:
No. The best players now would not be considered terrible newbies. The overall skill level risen when the amount of new players drop but heck, you wouldn't consider current "pros" like that.
OT:
I still have to see a Replay where they're useful. I've used them myself but rather for my own enjoyment of finishing off the players who certainly haven't had any chances left.
|
Indeed... it took several years before Zerg was using DarkSwarm as a regular part of the game, Ultra-Ling also took a long time to Develop.
And I'm sure everyone knows about Muta-Stacking.
I'd like to think, that Starcraft2 has things in it, that will evolve into usefulness over the course if its life, years and years into it. To think that we should expect to see the full gambit of strategy and unit usage over the course of the beta would be expecting a pretty shallow and stagnant game when it comes time to release and hopefully E-Sports.
|
As long as the ultralisk is easily interrupted by anything tiny in its path it will not shine. You cant easily get all lings aside and let the ultralisk pass. It wouldve been so good if lings wouldnt interrupt its path so damn easy.
|
I believe the problem is that too many other units are overpowered, while the Ultralisk is about fine. It lacks darkswarm, but it does so much more damage now to units that clump up even better in SC2 that it's about even. The problem is that Roaches are simply better, more versatile, and more cost effective against almost every unit then the Ultralisk, and pretty much everything that counters the Roach counters the Ultralisk about as well. Its not really a matter of skill or micro. If anything, Roaches are the ones that get even better as players get better at micro. We have two units, both armored type, both intended to be high armor/high health tanks that also deal fairly significant damage. One of these is going to end up being strictly better then the other. Consequentially, when other races are given units that are designed to be the balancing factor against Roaches, those same units become overwhelmingly ridiculously powerful against Ultra's.
Would anyone even build Ultralisks (outside of possible gimmicks like burrow ambushes) if they were moved to T1.5, producable alongside the Roach from the Roach Warren? The answer may well be yes, but the mere fact that you have to think for a second about that means something is horribly wrong with the Roach.
|
On April 08 2010 00:23 Cyclon wrote:
I believe the problem is that too many other units are overpowered, while the Ultralisk is about fine. It lacks darkswarm, but it does so much more damage now to units that clump up even better in SC2 that it's about even. The problem is that Roaches are simply better, more versatile, and more cost effective against almost every unit then the Ultralisk, and pretty much everything that counters the Roach counters the Ultralisk about as well. Its not really a matter of skill or micro. If anything, Roaches are the ones that get even better as players get better at micro. We have two units, both armored type, both intended to be high armor/high health tanks that also deal fairly significant damage. One of these is going to end up being strictly better then the other. Consequentially, when other races are given units that are designed to be the balancing factor against Roaches, those same units become overwhelmingly ridiculously powerful against Ultra's.
Would anyone even build Ultralisks (outside of possible gimmicks like burrow ambushes) if they were moved to T1.5, producable alongside the Roach from the Roach Warren? The answer may well be yes, but the mere fact that you have to think for a second about that means something is horribly wrong with the Roach.
I wouldn't hesitate. Heck I would make a couple ultras. As long as I dont have to get that much upgrades and investments done to get a single ultra out, which isnt that good in lategame.
|
You needed 4 gas to pump out ultras in SC1. Maybe get good eco before you transition to ultras?
|
On March 28 2010 22:45 laste wrote:
if you've ever used like 10 ultras with max upgrades alongside a little support against a heavy terran bio build for example you wouldn't even think of making such a silly post. ultras are just plain awesome, altho they require a ton of tech and cash, I trully believe that they're an effective unit in some situations(maybe not in uberpr0 games tho).
I'll attach some replays of mine when I get a chance.
If you're sitting on 10 ultras with max upgrades then you're clearly outplaying your opponent and/or they are massively below your skill level. Combine taht with the fact that TvZ's trending toward including thors which wreck ultras w/ the special ability.
|
On March 28 2010 20:11 AmstAff wrote:
if u build 2 ultras without any support they suck of course, like every other unit too. mix in ultras in the lategame and they are so damn strong together with your main army. seriously if u build one ultra and think "yes i won now" u play the wrong game.
yes marines/stalkers/range units can try to hit n run but z has the fastest units in the game and a group of speedlings prevent the opponent from running away.
people should stop this "my tier3 unit sucks, cause it doesnt make me win the game" thread. yesterday the BC was shit and today its the ultra. next thread the colossus sux cause it can be attacked by air and ground.
btw yesterday i watched the stream of an ally TvZ and the Z mixed in 3-4 Ultras and guess waht? they survived liked 20 tankshoots + attacks from 3/4 planetaryfortresses + stimed marines + marauders.
they kill the p meatshield in seconds so i dont get your problem really.
Except the fact that if the terran has 1 medivac for every 3 ground units, the medivacs will heal ALL THE DAMGE DELT by ultras faster than they can deal it, esp w/ ling back up.....Hydra Ultra is the ONLY way to use ultras vs terran bioball... Even then Hydra/Ling/Broodlord and Hydra/roach is much much much more cost effective, and faster to rebuild if you mess up slightly....
So yes, Ultras are a waste of Mins...
Oh, and LOL ultras deal 1/3 damage to a thor that a thor deals to it (this is DPS damage and not just damage damage) Now if thors counted as a "building" it would put the thor back where it belongs as an extremely powerful backup mech for the rest of the terran army, not a massable super unit that rapes anything zerg can throw at it (save for broodlords, and please don't ask me to prove that you can mass thors before zerg can get broodlords in a "normal" game. Hellion harrass, esp MASS hellion harrass forces a zerg to waste mins and more importantly gas on roaches. While the terran builds ONE MORE BUILDING to get the uncounterable anti zerg super unit.)
|
waste of money, go broodlords
|
ultras are INSANE in this game. they need a buff like a fish needs a bicycle
|
On April 23 2010 12:22 innoby wrote:
Except the fact that if the terran has 1 medivac for every 3 ground units, the medivacs will heal ALL THE DAMGE DELT by ultras faster than they can deal it, esp w/ ling back up.....Hydra Ultra is the ONLY way to use ultras vs terran bioball...
Medivacs heal slower than medics did in SC, and cost significantly more. I don't think a Medivac can out-heal the dmg an ultra does to a single target, yet alone the damage it can do to a dozen due to splash.
Ultras are a very focused unit. They pretty much shit stomp lings, zeals and marines but don't do so well vs most other units. (esp Thors and Sentries)
|
On April 23 2010 12:40 Louder wrote:
ultras are INSANE in this game. they need a buff like a fish needs a bicycle
You are toss, you can have immortals and chances are WILL have immortals before I can even get one Ultra, guess what, ultras do what 3 damage to immortals and immortals do what? 50 to ultras...yeah waaaay too powerful WAAAAAY too powerful.
To counter the contention that Medivacs heal SLOWER than medics, medics healed two damage for one energy, medivac does 3, same rate of energy usage larger energy pool AND more HP, AND they don't have to move to melee range to heal a unit...
So how the FUCK do you get that medivacs heal slower? I can't even kill ONE with 8 mutas before 6 marines kill ALL 8 MUTAS....(tried to snipe medivacs and learned NO CAN DO, gotta kill the marines then the medivacs, until I get 15+ mutas then I can muta micro and kill one medivac with each run...) So yeah again prove it.
|
I've encountered ultralisks only once in a PvZ where my opponent had me crushed early but made a huge mistake by not pushing when he could have wiped me out.
I was in the process of macroing back into the game as he was being passive and massing ultras. My 125supply army absolutely destroyed his 200 army comprised mostly of ultras, with a dash of hydras (at the end of the key battle his supply went from 200 to 60 and mine went from 125 to 110). It wasn't even close. Mind you I had the perfect counter, mass Immortal/Sentry, but it was kind of ridiculous how little damage I took to take out his entire 200 army with upgrades.
Moral of the story: ultras need some sort of buff, or at the very least should be cheaper.
|
Brood lords are also the only thing stopping 4-5 colossi and mass stalkers from raping everything Z has. Same goes for any terran force with an abundance of tanks.
|
all i know is that blizzard still has a lot of balancing to do...and if they mess up my precious zerg they'll be hell to pay. =P
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wA964.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/c2YYO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/aJl0E.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/8UATI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/OFbXE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/QtdpW.jpg)
