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So much nonsense in this post.
First of all the 'difficulty' in a game has little to do with how hard it is to play a game against other opponents. The quality of your opponent is what matters and as a result the amount of good players in the game are what matter. General skill required to play it only matters for attracting good players and for lowering the amount of luck. Automining etc. will not make it easier to win it will just mean that winning will be based on other stuff like army composition, scouting, positioning etc more then.
As it stands now the game is difficult enough to not let the 'randomness' of big battle against battle or other luck factors really be deciding IMO. In latest years 'easy' games actually made online gaming bigger instead of smaller, just look at what stuff like xbox live and games like fifa10 do for the numbers of online players and it will just be better. A pro scene is the automatic result of a big base of serious players which will only be easier to get with starcraft 2 which is much easier to get into. People on here claim like SC is IT as far as pro gaming goes but outside of korea it really doesn't have big numbers.
Soft counters are still present alot in BW and micro still matters alot. For example zealot stalker sentry high templar vs MMM ghost is still all about careful positioning, good usage of spells etc etc. I do agree that some things are not so great yet but this can all change, remember that expansions will bring extra units and patching will change the role of certain units, for example infestors may play a bigger role later on in the somewhat boring zerg army till now.
As far as it being boring I somewhat agree but this is alot because the various strategies for races are not balanced yet. Terrran uses almost the same army against zerg as against protoss, protoss always uses the same army and so does zerg. Balancing various parts like buffing terran mech, buffing protoss stargate's etc can change this.
As far as spectator sport goes, I think both games are rubbish for non die-hards to spectate as the details that make the game are too hard to notice for outsiders. As SC2 progresses the game can get better then sc for watching though as lots of the new mechanics make it more action packed. For example the various drop methods (medivac, overlord etc.) have been buffed, there are cliff walkers and the high ground advantage is gone. This should lead to more aggression, it;s just not shown yet.
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A kind of sport or Esport is always that successfull, the more players it play. Sc2 will play much more people(because of graphics easier gameplay etc...) so there are more people who are watching pro gaming, more money etc... - SC BW will be something for Gamelovers, but as an top Esports Game, sry no chance in my opinion.
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I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing.
It seems like the common argument is that SC2 is less exciting and more "staged" of an RTS than SCBW. And then everyone rushes to defend SC2 because its new and people are excited about it right now. They say "its only the beta, SC1 took years and years to get good". But the counter to that argument for me is that so much of what Blizzard has come up with for SC2 is lacking (in my opinion). It seems like they werent even fans of high level BW at all, and they only got the jist of it and then made a game that is a monument to those limited perceptions. Thats why i think that concern for SC2 even in the beta is OK. Its because the direction Blizzard has taken with SC2, and their inability to forsee fundamentally inferior gameplay elements is concerning. Basically, if they arent making it perfect as they can now, how are they going to fix it in expansions? To me it seems totally reasonable to believe they will continue the already established trend with SC2, which is to create gameplay elements that SHOULD be fun and SHOULD be competitive and interesting but for some reason, just arent.
That being said though, i dont hate SC2, and i hope everything gets worked out. People should stop throwing the lessons learned from SCBW under the bus just because there is a prettier girl in town all of a sudden. Not everything new is better and not every square peg can be forced into a round hole. I am all for hoping that SC2 will become even better than BW, but hoping really doesnt help much. Blizzard needs to actually change the game for the better for that to happen.
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Truth be told I think a game's quality and how "good" it is doesn't neccessarily make an e-sport. It sounds like you think that SC1 was some amazing game originally which was why it became an e-sport, but I don't think that is the case. It became an e-sport long before it became so balanced and amazing. I don't know how accurate it is but it sounds like from the recent IntoTheRainbow interview that back in the day, sc was not balanced so some teams wouldn't even recruit Protoss players. From what I've heard, SC2 is better now than SC1 was back in the day.
On March 23 2010 04:13 Mellotron wrote:
I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing.
It looks to me like they have been addressing all the major issues the players have been talking about...
Mothership OP, so they nerfed it. Protoss still too strong so nerfed them. Terran too weak so they buffed them, zerg too strong so they nerfed them...
The only major complaint I've seen that they havn't addressed so far is high ground advantage.
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On March 23 2010 02:20 koOma wrote:
I believe in StarCraft 2.
I ALSO believe in StarCraft 2.
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I believe in blizzard's dedication to making SC2 a hardcore eSport, and as such I believe it will be fine tuned over the next 2+ years to make it into the game we're all hoping for in this community.
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They havent addressed the complaints about audio (which started years before the beta was out), lan, the hard counter system, and on and on.
I personally dont think that balance changes are difficult or even what is on trial when someone says that SC2 isnt as good as SCBW. If you can look at the Infestors spawn terran ability and tell me thats more entertaining and awesome for gameplay than Dark Swarm then i dont know what to say. The point im trying to make is, despite being professionals and having a ton of experience, Blizzard missed some of the huge factors in what made SCBW so great. Its not about tweaking unit stats. I think some of the fundamentals are off in SC2, and what is odd to me is that no one at Blizzard complained or had a better idea. Take for example the high ground mechanic in SC2... it really takes a ton of the fun and feel that was great in BW out of the game. Why would Blizzard do that? Did they think they had something better? Because in 10 minutes of playing i was already bored of the new high ground mechanic and theyve been testing it for years. Basically, im just pointing out that SC2 skepticism can come from places other than just unit numbers balancing or graphics. I feel that its totally acceptable to doubt the future of SC2 simply because of Blizzards inability to see what people really are looking for. In many ways iccup is superior to Bnet 2. Anyone who truly loved and understood BW would have built it from the ground up to build upon iccups successes. These are the types of things that make me think no amount of patching or expansions will help. Blizzard has to really listen to what people are saying and stop saying "we think its fine".
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On March 23 2010 04:32 Shiladie wrote:
I believe in blizzard's dedication to making SC2 a hardcore eSport, and as such I believe it will be fine tuned over the next 2+ years to make it into the game we're all hoping for in this community.
Blizzard dedication into making a game a hardcore esport should strike fear into the hearts of people everywhere.
I don't mean that in a good way.
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But maybe it is fine and there is just a group of stubborn hardcore players that do not like to adapt to a new game and just want the old game with new graphics?
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On March 23 2010 02:24 G.s)NarutO wrote:
First of all your post gives me headache not because some of the statements you make are true, but also you didn't even put a bit of effort into your post. If you want to go into detail about why Starcraft 2 isn't nearly as good as Starcraft in the aspect of e-Sports you should take some time to spellcheck, maybe mark the important points, but you just didn't.
he said he did the best grammar he could. and ur english isn't astounding either.
he's probably not a native english speaker, like much of TL. cut him a break.
if you don't like his non-points, that's cool, but don't attack his grammar imo.
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On March 23 2010 04:14 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 04:13 Mellotron wrote:
I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing. It looks to me like they have been addressing all the major issues the players have been talking about... Mothership OP, so they nerfed it. Protoss still too strong so nerfed them. Terran too weak so they buffed them, zerg too strong so they nerfed them... The only major complaint I've seen that they havn't addressed so far is high ground advantage.
well yea sure they've addressed the really easy stuff that just requires changing some stats on units/upgrades, but blizzard has been ignoring a lot of the communities big complaints for years. No LAN, high ground advantage (i remember as early as 2008 people complained about it), zerg is boring, etc
now hopefully these arent actually being ignored but since theyre such large and complex topics to address and "fix", it's just taking blizzard a while to work on them. although much more realistically they are just not going to change anything very much in regards to high ground, zerg, and hard counters. i would LOVE to eat my words on this though.
truth to be told i think sc2 is still pretty fun right now, but i feel that it's mostly just the novelty of it being a brand new game with lots of new stuff (especially for me since ive switched from Z to P, Z got boring in a week honestly), and once the honeymoon is over with it I'll be a lot more bored with it all and probably be back to BW by the end of the year. That is, unless Blizzard drastically changes a lot before release.
also it's completely stupid to say that SC2 is better than SC1 was when it was in beta. SC1 beta isnt the other game competing for our time, BW is. and right now BW is a lot better than SC2. sure SC2 will have 2 more expansions that might finally "make it right", but that's lame as shit. SC2 should ideally be a better game that BW from day 1 of release (final release not beta lol), and then the expansions should make it even better.
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On March 23 2010 02:13 lunar3force wrote:
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
Seeing Artosis video it is amasing how little some of top Korean players care about SC2. When head coatch say SC2 is to simple and too fast its clear they are not impressed at all. Blizz vs Kespa situation makes it even worse. And face it, if Starcraft 2 become foreign only esport it will happen same thing what was happened to W3, it will stay popular for couple of years then disapear for mayority of people.People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
It's kinda disappointing that some people think that "If Korea and kespa isn't all-in in SC2 beta, then SC2 will never become an eSport!".
Of course, the most skilled SCBW players are in Korea, and the Korean's Starcraft scene is big, but like some other people said, it will take a while(many months, years, balance patches, expansions, and at least a game release..........) for such a huge professional scene to make the switch to a new game. They're 2 different games, maybe they wont even make the switch.
But I'm pretty sure SC2 will survive many years as an eSport, even if Korea never makes the switch.
It's like if a professional Skiing league would've all switched to Snowboarding when it was invented... Of course, some of them switched for all the "more stylish/newer" aspects of the sport/game, but a lot of people still practice the sport. SCBW and SC2 are both different games, with different strengths, weaknesses and issues, but the gamer population is huge enough for more than 1 GOOD RTS imho.
Korea/Kespa has been one of the first well organized progamer league, but many, many more have the potential to become big and important(maybe not as sick and huge as Korean's SCBW scene, but still) especially with the release of such an expected title.
On March 23 2010 02:13 lunar3force wrote:
...People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
Maybe it's true for the SCBW scene, but with a new game, comes a new scene. Personally, I cared about which foreigners were able to make it into big tournaments, it showed that I don't need to be born in a specific country to be good at SCBW, you know... Yes, I'm a foreigner, so maybe my opinion is biased, but I wouldn't mind idolizing a progamer coming from Sweden, France, US, or even Canada, to motivate me to become better at the game...
Anyway, you have some good points, and the game sure needs some improvement before to be considered as the RTS of the future, but for 1.5months into the beta, SC2 is a hell of a good game. I don't know if you've took part in any other beta in your 17years of gaming experience, but personally it's the cleanest beta I've seen yet, and by far.
Edit: Fixed some mistakes, sorry for my bad English again.
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Switzerland2431 Posts
On March 23 2010 04:49 Artrey wrote:
But maybe it is fine and there is just a group of stubborn hardcore players that do not like to adapt to a new game and just want the old game with new graphics?
No. There is no need for that. Brood War in itself was as perfect as RTS get when it comes to E-SPORT. Living and evolving trough all these years in a market that has the attention span of a squirrel is a fantastic feat for any game and proof of how much can be done, if done properly at the right time and place. Think about all the teams, players, money and the vast history we have.
So the question should never be how to bring Brood War up to 2010, but how to create the next RTS with the potential as great as Brood War. Time is a factor here people. And whether you want to give this game some time or not doesnt even matter. Because if Starcraft2 has what it takes, things will roll on its own.
I was in my late teen years when Starcraft was released. I dont care at all if SC2 is a success. Because we had some awesome years no doubt from the very beginning. SC2 certainly is like very early Starcraft (or DawnOfWar) in that people are _just_ playing again. This is a good thing, because BroodWar got so freaking serious (no not figured out) over the last few years. The countless hours of 2v2 / Hunters / UMS i played in Starcraft in its first 3ish years beside 1v1!! The shit we've done and the tricks and strategies that came up, giving you something new all the time was what done it for me as a casual gamer, but the pros with their dedication and how the stations presented and set up everything really did the trick for me as a spectator.
Right now i do enjoy Starcraft2 for what it is. Simply a fun game. Only time will tell if it has was it takes to be a sport. That is, making me want to watch players win and NOT watching it because i want to analyse and learn and implement it in my own games. That might be the angle for players like Day9, who give everything a chance because they want to be good at the game. But for me as a spectator, i want to be entertained. If not i turn the channel...no harm done.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
1 Month into Beta.
11 Years...
hmmmm....HMMMM....<font size=7>HMMMMMMM</font>
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EPT
