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First of all, take notice that this is not intended to be troll post, only observation and impressions why Starcraft 2 falls short in every way as harcore esport title compared to Brood War. This is coming from casual gamer with ~ 17 years of gaming experiance. My impressions are based on watching tons of replays, vods, streams , playing online on borrowed account, and playing a hell out of offline edition with latest AI. Now I will count couple of big problems. Many of them are more then likely to stay unsolved as ever since Battlereport 1 general gameplay direction in set and will not change much. Before people start screaming it is only beta and Blizz will not release until it is ready or better I say get real, release date is set for middle of year and no state of game build will matter much. And Blizzard seems pretty satisfied what they have done and will not change final product much in any significant way.
Problem number 1: Hard conter sistem is big fail compared to BWs soft one.
Ok this is very large problem that people were screaming since day 1 of beta. This sistem sucks big time for long term esports title cuz no amount of gosu micro can do anything when you face unit that is designed as its hard counter. Just watch Blizzcon 07 Terran video and it is clear as day how did they balance game. Unit 1 giving you problems? Bring unit 2 that destroys unit1, now opponent will bring his unit 3 that will destroy your unit 2 ect ect. Blizzard just went easy way inteed accually designing abilities and relationship between 2-3 units and THEN designeing how unit will look like and not crying we can touch Zergling, we cant touch Hydralisk, we cant touch Mutalisk becouse Zerg race will loose its identity. Lets look at situation 1 in BW. Vulture vs Dragoon. If you just send vulture at dragoon without micro dragoon wins, but if you micro vulture with mines pressure vulture can win or deal heavy damage, on other hand dragoon can responce by micro also by targeting mines and stepping back. This is very intence situacion with no clear winner and person with better micro skill wins even if dragoon by default is supposed to kill vulture. Situation 2 Marines & Medics vs Lurkers. If you just send your M&M group into lurkers they all die in blink of second, but if you separate them, secrifice 1 marine to draw lurker fire you can then easily kill them, again lurker player can respond with superior positioning. Again very intence situacion, no clear winner its all up to micro skill and superior positioning. Lets take a look at SC2 now. Immortal vs Roach... hmmm..yea..... you cant do shit but GG, Of course there are some micro situacion but on overall scale much less than BW. Maybe more will be discovered but people now have tons of experiance and ussually if there is something it dosent takes long to discover plus this is 3D title so bugs and glitches that can be passed as micro are less likely to exist.
Problem number 2 : SC2 as spectator sport is much worse than BW
This is also big problem as BW is such a joy to watch. Everything is so clean and easy on the eyes. you can see every unit, where it is, what is it doing ect. In SC2 big battles are complete mess. Its just 2 big armies engage in battle, theres lasers, rockets, whatever flying all over the place and units themselfs are so clumped together...just focus fireing tiny ghost in big mess of colors is hard especially when armyes die in 2 seconds. That leaves little chance for exciting battles like in BW where you chear for every tank, for every unit while they struggle to stay alive. Some of videos are so exciting and awe inspiring it is incredible. In SC2 low setting are too ugly and unnatural while high/ultra are to much detailed, processed.
Problem number 3: SC2....boring game?
Ok this is hugely subjective, I find SC2 fun game but also boring one. It is hard to explain but I kinda feel that for completely new game it feels tired after only 2-3 weeks of playing. Problem may be in boring spells. Lets look at BW for a second, at defiler... when he stars shooting dark sworm and plaque, when multiple science weesels stars irradiateing everything, couple orbiters recalling and stasis everything in sight all hell break lose. Its edge of you seat kind of expierince for bought player and viewer. Sure in SC2 ghost can emp, raven can hsm and infester can fungal growth but everything seems eather worse or toned down and less exciteing. Zerg race in particular while crazy and dinamic race in BW is complete boredom in SC2.
Problem number 4: SC2 is easy game ( compared to BW )
There is no denying, SC2 is 10X more easier than BW. I feel Blizzard had big chance here with their 1 game per account. See even if you are first time RTS player who dosent even use shourtcuts you still have tons off fun if you play with someone of your skill level. On iccup this is not possible as there are more smurfers than new players but with new battlenet there is not need to dumb down game for hardcore players and its esport potencial. In BW on high level play you need to have sick sick multitasking ability, years of practise and with time you will hit barrier that you cant pass because its your limit as a person. This is old discusion but SC2 shouldent have auto mine and unlimited army selection, Imo smart casting and mbs is welcome edition but Blizz went over the top for SC2 to be as easy as possible.
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
Seeing Artosis video it is amasing how little some of top Korean players care about SC2. When head coatch say SC2 is to simple and too fast its clear they are not impressed at all. Blizz vs Kespa situation makes it even worse. And face it, if Starcraft 2 become foreign only esport it will happen same thing what was happened to W3, it will stay popular for couple of years then disapear for mayority of people.People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
In the end I kinda feel that this is most dissapointing Blizzard game along with WOTLK and I have played them all, from Lost vikings and Warcraft 1 to WoW. Its not that game is bad as Blizzards game even when solid is better than mosts but still... Actually first thing I did with game was clicking on units to hear what they have to say and was shocked how uninspiring voiceovers are, almost like they was not getting paid for job or forced to do it. Another possible scenario is that since Blizzard dident make any new game besides WoW for so long many of original Blizz members from Diablo, Starcraft 1 ect left company as there is not much magic left in game that so few companies have.
I will keep final judgment when game hit retail as hopes are high for great single player but as for multiplayer I feel it did not live up to SC:BW expecialy since they had 12 years of ideas and that battlenet 2.0 will be region locked is such a blow to community.
P.S.
Sorry for bad grammar, I did best I could.
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SC wasn't an immediate eSport when it was in its beta phase. As far as I remember, neither was it when BW first launched. It took what, like 6 years of patching to make it the game it is today? SC2 has to wait for at least 2 expansions and who knows how many patches before it can even be considered in the same league as SC:BW. Calling out faults in a beta is welcome, even encouraged, but you can't claim it's future is over even before it's begun, even before the game has been completely released.
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I believe in StarCraft 2.
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Starcraft was a far shittier game then SC2 is in Betta stages, it too BW and years of patches still to make the game what it is today,
All this beta critique is annoying. The fact that the game plays fairly well and its not even out yet AND we know we will be having at least 2 expansions in the future gives me alot of hope for the game even if im not fully happy now
I honestly think SC:BW will continue to live threw out SC2 launch and far beyond it will be like 2 different games though
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While i don't think SC2 will ever live up to how good BW was, it is still BETA and i still think it has potential to be a successful esport. I agree with most points that you make but it's not like this can't change. They claim to have hired an esports team and, if they have a clue, alot of these points are ringing in their ears. This post is about a year or two too early imo.
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It is kind of weird you are saying this things. Like so many people do, ok the game is easier does it makes it not competitive? Well the answer is no, look at wc3 a game that is like 10000 times easier then sc2 and still is very competitive. Ok macro skills reduce a bit, but micro skills improve. And 2nd of all have you watched the games of broodwar the first four weeks? Your argumunts are valid, maybe of the like of life experience. And saying the people needs players like flash, jeadong whatever is stupid because every other game has his own top players. And it is not like CS players are saying we need players the top players from quake. If flash getting steamrolled by players in the future, what are you going to say then?
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sc2 is still the best rts of the past 11 years. thats enough for me.
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First of all your post gives me headache not because some of the statements you make are true, but also you didn't even put a bit of effort into your post. If you want to go into detail about why Starcraft 2 isn't nearly as good as Starcraft in the aspect of e-Sports you should take some time to spellcheck, maybe mark the important points, but you just didn't.
Secondly its easy to point out that this is not just the BETA, but also the early game stage. People will get used to the graphic changes, spells, the micro and every other situation. I strongly disagree that Starcraft 2 is an easy game. It might be easier than Starcraft, but its by no means easy. Sometimes in Terran vs Zerg you have to pull a miracle in micro to keep your units alive while you bank up thousands of minerals. I'm a pretty good player so I realize I got plenty of minerals, but since the game is so fast you have a hard time deciding:
Want to micro or do you want to macro right now, because one false move and your army is gone and it won't matter if you rebuild 20 new marines; On the other hand - having insane macro doesn't get you anywhere if your units die as soon as they start to fight because you lack control.
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2 expansions makes your point irrelevant for SC2's popularity for the next 1.5 years.
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It's waaaaay too early to say that SC2 is a boring/easy game compared to SC1. I think the reason SC1 is so "easy on the eyes" is because we've been playing it for years. I agree, that I can't just glance at the battlefield and immediately know what's going on (hell, I'd settle for being able to glance at the unit list in a replay and immediately recognize the pictures), but all that takes time.
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You make some excellent points. Blizzard has it's work cut out to make SC2 the truly dominant e-sport game, it's obviously very tightly tuned for a beta and will be extremely popular no matter what, but brushing off some of those concern's isn't productive. I have faith in Blizzard but how it's accepted in the Korean scene is pretty crucial for a longstanding future.
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While I think that we may find that the units dont quite hard counter each other as hard as we think, or Blizzard may do some magic with softening them up a little, I do agree that the battles need to be changed. The simplest answer i can think of is to increase the collision range a bit, which also has the happy effect of making ramps easier to block. Colors also need to be adjusted on some units, especially zerg, as only a handful of the colors are actually distinguishable from creep, but are too similar to each other in battle.
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sad to say this but as a spectator sport i think sc2 is better because of the graphics, there r so many newbs who enjoy looking at games streams without knowing how the game works so :p
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yesterdays zotac was the best shit i've seen for long. so entertaining; for me SC2 already surpassed SC:BW at the entertainment factor; maybe some korean games are still better, but not many. especially the grand final of zotac was lovely imo
still you got some points, but it's a beta right now and much will change
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I believe in SC2 too! Its not only what Blizzard does, its also in the players hand to choose what to do with it.
On March 23 2010 02:13 lunar3force wrote:
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
Seeing Artosis video it is amasing how little some of top Korean players care about SC2. When head coatch say SC2 is to simple and too fast its clear they are not impressed at all. Blizz vs Kespa situation makes it even worse. And face it, if Starcraft 2 become foreign only esport it will happen same thing what was happened to W3, it will stay popular for couple of years then disapear for mayority of people.People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
Huh what? What are you really talking about?? Players exists all over the globe. Who cares where you are from? Shouldnt bring in rasism to the gaming world...
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sorry for answering with such a short response to your long post, but way too many topics about sc1 > sc2 offer no solutions and take up too much space in the forums. i wouldn't mind it if you were sounding the death knell for sc2 as an esport in like, 2 years after release if support for the game were actually floundering, but we're only a few weeks into beta.
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meeeeeeh I'm sorry but these kind of posts really need to be saved for after the launch, It's just not fair to compare a game that's in beta to a game that has been perfected over 10 years..
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Poor spelling and grammar really kills this thread for me, but what always bothers me about these threads is when people keep crying out how the sky is falling.
Yes, SC2 has problems and we should give feedback on them, but declaring the game a miserable failure in its beta stages is utter retardation, especially since a lot of your complaints are rather misinformed. We still got several months of beta and several YEARS of expansion and future patches to balance the game. The game is nowhere near being a failure.
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I think every1 can agree that after watching the finals of the Zotac cup on day9s stream that there is absoultely esports potential. It was a joy to watch and a great series, also what Senx said, its a month old beta compared to a year 10year old perfected game. The one month beta of broodwar wasn't exactly OMFG ESPORTS.
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^
But BW wasn't really perfected "over 10 years".
Not to mention comparing the SC2 beta with the SC ONE beta is highly irrelevant.
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Go play some Starcraft 1 without broodwar... without lurkers, corsairs, dark templars, charon booster goliaths it was also lacking... in this form and without all the balance patches it would have been dead by now... but it is'nt because it evolved... the same thing will happen to SCII (and i assume it will happen fast).
All we need is patience. And some people that file some feadback to blizzard... They are not stupid.
Even now in this early stage of SCII there is no unbeatable strategy or a race that wins 80% more likely over the other... or a unit that you just mass to win for sure... that alone is impressive and shows the quality of the design process of blizzard...
As a last thing consider how many variables like Unit Speed/Cost/colission Size/supply/damage/armor/upgrades/build speed/tech tree/abilitys/AI (to name just a few) blizzard can still change... you just cannot tell by now that it is impossible to find a setting that is just right and makes everything even more awesome than it is in this early stage...
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Problem number 1: BW had PLENTY of hard counters. The only difference here is that there are more of them, because there are no real useless units.
Problem number 2 : It needs minor work. IT'S A BETA
Problem number 3: Projecting your own feelings. Not relevant.
Problem number 4: You can only really judge by the SMALL number of players in the beta, for one. For two, you're judging by foreign players. Even watching the TSL can make SC look broken, simply because it's not being played on the same level that Koreans are playing.
Problem number 5 : Koreans are playing SCBW still. If you didn't notice, it's kind of a job. They don't have 12 hours to sit around and just play random games whenever they want - unlike many of these foreigners.
Blizzard has yet to release a title that isn't a complete hit. You're judging too much on the limited players in beta, the relatively low skill that these players have, and a few "it's too early to say" from a few players on SKT1. All of this is completely ignoring the fact that the game is still being actively worked on as a beta. If you really think that things won't (or can't) change during beta, you obviously have NEVER seen a Blizzard beta before. Even still, the game doesn't really need that much work.
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while i get the whole, its still beta thing, SC1 should have been a working up from point, not redesign the game around SC1 units, it should have kept the same soft counter system everyone loves and the slower pace, and its not that much slower.
The whole beta thing is really annoying, why forget about SC1 and everything that went into making it a great and still hugely popular game, when trying to balance out and make SC2 just as good?
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Alright, I'll humour you on this review of Stacraft 2.
I don't have a beta key, but I've watched hundred of hours of stream from different players since the launch of the beta.
Point 1: I agree that hard counters are disappointing, but part of the mecanic you see in SC2 was also in SC1. Units like the vulture had an attack that did an insignificant amount of damage to certain unit size. That was a sort of hard counter.
Anyhow, you judge Starcraft 2 because of one unit composition and present it as the norm (roach against immortals), yet it's not the norm at all. Roaches and immortal are the extreme exemple of hard counters, they could use some work, but no other unit composition in the game is that swayed. You'll find that Units like the hellion can be used either effectively or with insignificance depending on their position. A marine marauder force is 'hard countered' by Collosus, but with a good angle of attack and focus fire from the marauder to the collosus, they'll survive. So hard counter is hardly something to be worried about in Starcraft 2. Problems can be changed.
Point 2; I agree that units can be hard to see. The new ambiance light and shadows makes the team color very hard to distinguish, but I believe Blizzard is working on a solution, so it's really far too early to critisize that. Otherwise, I've had a lot of fun watching streams and game commentaries of Starcraft 2.
Point 3: I don't know why you feel the game is not excenting, I find it absolutely electrifying, and that's just from watching streams. On another note, it's normal that a game becomes stale after three weeks of playing. Take a break and return, it will probably feel as great as the first time.
Point 4: There's no such thing as an easy competitive game. You are playing against players and there is no 'iWIN' button in the game. Your opponents are easy to defeat, not the game, because you're playing the game, not fighting against it.
Point 5: Korea will most likely have the hardest time of all transitioning to Sc2 since they are so involved in SC1 still. You can't change a country in a month. Even if SC2 was immensely better than SC1, they would still be reluctant in changing.
That's my take on it.
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i also want to add that after watching sc2 i almost wanted to stop watching broodwar forever. if sc2 really does contain a meta game and turns out to have a really high skill ceiling (this is possible regardless of multiple building selection and auto mining and whatever) then it will be more successful than broodwar, simply because it's so gorgeous to look at.
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I agree with the OP but I think he totally missed the reason, the units clump much more than brood war (that's fine) and they clump closer when moving (to an extent that is bad). That seems to be a huge problem. I can see that being justified for air units, but it needs to be removed for ground units. IMO
This shouldn't be too difficult to fix, or it should be impossible depending on how the game engine works.
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Canada5565 Posts
Isn't there some rule about creating original, quality threads now?
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Sorry for bad grammar, I did best I could.
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1. You had a lot of hard counters in sc:bw as well and you can win battles with micro in sc2 as well. Of course you just chose the examples to your advantage, but there are cases for both. Imho the enhanced focus on unit diversity in sc2 is a good thing to keep it interesting and put pressure on the players to scout and adapt their playstyle.
2. Imho sc2 looks far better BUT you need to watch it in high resolution, it is bad on low res, yes. However we are living in 2010, not in the last century (millenium even!). At a good resolution, sc2 is awesome to watch.
3. pretty personal, hu? I still like it.
4. It is not easier, it has a better interface. There are still plenty of ways to distinguish the good from the bad. Just look at the results of all the european tournaments - with 500+ participants each, there were always the same guys in the quarter finals (with a few exceptions of course). Making a game more stupid and uncomfortable should not be the answer to skill requirements imho. Instead it should rather focus on making intelligent choices and award map control and scouting, which sc2 all does. A fast brain should be more important than fast fingers. 
5. We will see.
Imho it's the best Blizzard game besides Diablo 2, which is hard to compare anyway.
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Your post feels like you just wrote it in russian or something and ran it through babelfish before posting. But largely I agree with what you're saying, still I can see why others don't so it's a matter of taste more than anything.
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Obviously SC2 has some work to do to be the quality broodwar is as an esport. It is still in it's beta though with an opportunity for changes to happen. The way the game is played will evolve as the player base gets more experience with the game. Look at starcraft 1 without brood war. It isn't nearly as good as brood war in terms of competitive balance, not too mention the years of patching it took to get BW where it is. The player side of it developed over time as well. Sure we look at stuff like vulture micro and muta stacking and say "where the hell is that in sc2?" Remember though, that these were techniques developed over time. It took years after the release for muta stacking, something that is such a staple of the game now, to be discovered/popularized. Then there is the maps. A bad map can shatter the balance of the game ... maps in their current state weren't exactly around from the beginning either.
It is a good thing to point out areas that SC2 needs to be improved in - that is the whole point of having a beta. But don't condemn it as a failure yet. Give it the time that BW had.
Edit: By the way, there are some soft counters in SC2, and I'm sure more will develop over time. For example ... playing against hydras in a tvz, hellions and banshees act as soft counters ... at least imo. Hellions with their igniter upgrade can really tear up hydras, the problem is hydras can also put some serious hurting on hellions. If you attack walk them into eachother the hyras win handily, but if you control the hellions well and flank you will win. It is the same thing with banshees against hydras. Both of them can take eachother out pretty well. In a straight up fight it is usually pretty darn close. But using banshees air mobility and hydras slow speed against them you can win more decisively (not too mention cloak if they don't have detectors).
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I agree with the whole article. Its all true, something has to change... I really hope that blizzard will do something. Post it on blizzard forum man !
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I don't really see why #5 is a problem, as while we all definitely enjoy the korean pro scene, the overwhelming majority of us are from outside Korea. If SC2 could foster an international pro scene, which I think it will, wouldn't that be a little more convenient to follow?
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I want to believe in SC2 but the game makes it hard for me to believe 
If it stays the same with the basic way the units are controlled and moves and so on then I'll prolly revert to BW only to find noones playing anymore T_T
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On March 23 2010 02:56 DorF wrote:I want to believe in SC2 but the game makes it hard for me to believe If it stays the same with the basic way the units are controlled and moves and so on then I'll prolly revert to BW only to find noones playing anymore T_T
People tend to revert back to the superior game (Smash, wc3, tekken tag to name a few). So I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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You aren't watching the right matches. The best VOD games I've seen (some of Day9's, Husky's, and HD's) have been just as compelling as great spectator BW games. The difference is that even the top players are still mastering the game and figuring things out, so these games rarely blossom at this point.
1. BW had tons of hard counters
2. Unit clumping is relevant, but SC2 is an awesome visual spectacle (sound needs work though)
3. It's beta and most strategies are very basic and simple, since 'standard' is still evolving
4. No way to tell, but at the outset it looks just as hard if not moreso
5. Kespa won't just abandon such a successful game the moment the sequel's beta comes out. The transition will happen over months and years. Pro gamers don't have time to play the sc2 beta because they still have to play SC1 full time right now!
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Oh my goood
Problem number 2 : SC2 as spectator sport is much worse than BW -how in gods name is that possible. With the beautifulkl graphics and even more emphasis on agression it is a better spectator sport.
Problem number 3: SC2....boring game? - yah 300 apm is really boring barely have anything to do
Problem number 4: SC2 is easy game ( compared to BW )
here is no denying, SC2 is 10X more easier than BW.
There is every denying.. Yes there are things that require less actions to do, BUT you have a ton allot more to do now. When the good people figure out the ballance of their actions it will be as difficult to get to their level as in BW.
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
I hate to say that, but Korea doesn't really care.. they have a great SC 1 scene right now and they won't jump the gun untill the game is tweaked ina a year or untill all the expos come out. Koreans play starcraft because koreans play starcraft.. that's it..
I'm sorry for my rage,but I really disagree with your opinion.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Problem number 2 : SC2 as spectator sport is much worse than BW
This is also big problem as BW is such a joy to watch. Everything is so clean and easy on the eyes. you can see every unit, where it is, what is it doing ect. In SC2 big battles are complete mess. Its just 2 big armies engage in battle, theres lasers, rockets, whatever flying all over the place and units themselfs are so clumped together...just focus fireing tiny ghost in big mess of colors is hard especially when armyes die in 2 seconds. That leaves little chance for exciting battles like in BW where you chear for every tank, for every unit while they struggle to stay alive. Some of videos are so exciting and awe inspiring it is incredible. In SC2 low setting are too ugly and unnatural while high/ultra are to much detailed, processed.
Problem number 3: SC2....boring game?
Ok this is hugely subjective, I find SC2 fun game but also boring one. It is hard to explain but I kinda feel that for completely new game it feels tired after only 2-3 weeks of playing. Problem may be in boring spells. Lets look at BW for a second, at defiler... when he stars shooting dark sworm and plaque, when multiple science weesels stars irradiateing everything, couple orbiters recalling and stasis everything in sight all hell break lose. Its edge of you seat kind of expierince for bought player and viewer. Sure in SC2 ghost can emp, raven can hsm and infester can fungal growth but everything seems eather worse or toned down and less exciteing. Zerg race in particular while crazy and dinamic race in BW is complete boredom in SC2.
Problem number 4: SC2 is easy game ( compared to BW )
There is no denying, SC2 is 10X more easier than BW. I feel Blizzard had big chance here with their 1 game per account. See even if you are first time RTS player who dosent even use shourtcuts you still have tons off fun if you play with someone of your skill level. On iccup this is not possible as there are more smurfers than new players but with new battlenet there is not need to dumb down game for hardcore players and its esport potencial. In BW on high level play you need to have sick sick multitasking ability, years of practise and with time you will hit barrier that you cant pass because its your limit as a person. This is old discusion but SC2 shouldent have auto mine and unlimited army selection, Imo smart casting and mbs is welcome edition but Blizz went over the top for SC2 to be as easy as possible.
1. I seriously don't get your point. It's alot better as a spectator sport and will draw a lot more people to play and watch it. Alot of people I know won't go near pro games of Brood War, because they say it looks dated and old.
SC2 battles are still as varied if you just micro. Yes you can just go box everything set it on 1 and A move in, but the real pros will be splitting up there units and not clumping anything. It's exactly the same in Brood War.
2. None of the spells are boring, it's just there hasn't been any crazy korean commentators shouting MISSSIIIILEEEE, SNIPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, etc. Storm is still as devastating as it always was especially if you don't unclump properly and that's the same with EMP.
3. I would hardly say SC2 is an easier game. The only thing that's possibly made it easier is unlike BW the units have decent AI and don't get stuck everywhere. Macro isn't any easier than it used to be and if anything is actually harder. When you look at Terran you need to know exactly when to mule and when to save energy for scans, you need to manage your add-ons correctly to make sure you're getting the right unit compositions and it's still very much a macro game. Automine doesn't make anything easier either, it just removes one click which you have to use on everything else on something else, giving you more time for army control and other types of macro.
Brood War suffers from the opposite of what you say. The trouble is with iCCUP is it's become too hardcore, a newer player to Starcraft will go on there, get raped and never play again. With the laddering system on SC2 which is really awesome by the way, it allows you to play against people your own skill level and enjoy the game. Losing all the time is not fun and it leaves newbies to the game feeling terrible if they can't play a game to have fun. It doesn't dumb the game down, pro level SC2 is still going to be ridiculously hard as it is now, just because the engine has been massively improved, units made so they're not actually useless and with Blizzards support I'm sure it'll be just as good.
All in all, I personally feel most of your points are wrong, but I can understand why you might feel that way. SC2 I'm sure is going to become a big game and it's a hell of a damn good game. Blizzard put alot of effort into creating this and you can tell with every small detail that they've really put love into the game as developers as they really know who they are targeting for and they plan to act on it.
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A lot of good points have been made about why Stacraft 2 should not be judged in it's current condition, and they're right. It's Beta, and there's a point to letting you guys play it. Blizzard isn't stupid. They consistently create excellent, extraordinarily fun games. But now they are letting you in before the game is even released. How can this be anything but positive?
An excellent point was made about playing SC without BW: it just doesn't work right. It's do-able, but nowhere near as good as it is with BW. Definitely not e-sport worthy.
And about it being "too hard to see," people didn't agree wtb Mozart's music at first because they feared people wouldn't be able to
comprehend all of the notes. People feared that having films with close-ups would confuse audiences. It'll be fine, you just need high quality and time to adjust.
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Pretty much every point you gave is opinion and can't be proven to be a PROBLEM for progaming.
I agree with pretty much every response given in this thread. Mainly that the new graphics make this a BETTER esports game (because noobs will think it looks awesome even if they dont know whats up), that there are a lot of hard counters in BW but at the same time a lot of useless units, that the game is very balanced with so much time left before release and with 2 more expansions in the working which will further balance things.
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Yeh, because everyone thought SC had potential when it was released on day one.
Please, please PLEASE get your heads out of your asses. This is a BETA. It's not the finished product. All you need to see is promise, not the final frigging product.
Even debating this is head-poundingly stupid. Starcraft might not have taken a decade to get good, but it certainly took a few years (Remember the mighty 1.08 update?).
Esports isn't driven on the quality of the game. It's driven by sponsors and spectators. Remove one or the other and the game suffers. Naturally, if you have a mediocre title then people lose interest - and so do sponsors.
But does anyone for a fraction of a second really think that SC2 is going to suffer from a lack of community interest? I doubt it.
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17 years gaming experiance, lets listen guys.
Your arguments fall short, and I will reiterate what everyone else has said - we're 1 month into a closed beta game, get some brains and realise this isn't the final product.
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These threads are kinda lame, in my opinion. I think the only correct answer is "let's pick this discussion back up in a year". The rest is a bunch of half-formed ideas backed with little to no actual talking points.
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starcraft 2 is AMAZING for a beta , can u imagine the actual game? AMAZING
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i agree with the post about e-sports that is, i just hope the game is fun.
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Dumping on StarCraft 2 at this point is just insane. It's already a great game, in BETA stage no less.
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SC1 had hard counters. Honestly if you don't know that then you shouldn't commenting on the whole SC1 > SC2 as an esport thing.
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Mostly all of your points are wrong.
Im sorry you are so short sighted and ignorant.
SC1 didnt become a major esport straight outta beta it took years to patch and get it to where it is today.
Is SC2 going to reach the same high spot as a major esport game straight out of the beta? Of course not thats just common sense.
Is SC2 going to make it in the world of esports? 99% chance of HELL YES.. and why??
1. THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT!!! - THE GAME DEVELOPER STANDS BEHINDS THE GAME AND ITS COMMUNITY AND ALSO WANTS IT TO BE COME A ESPORT GAME. Hardly any other game has that going for it. So with that the game has a huge chance to succeed as an esport.
2. Read number 1 again. They have added TONS of great things already to make the game easily accessible for spectators IE the features when watching replays. Lots of good tools to work with, and you have to expect them to work and grow those features as time goes on.
3. Lots of Pro Leagues/ Teams are already picking the game up and running events!! and its only in the beta stages!! Open your eyes kid the shift has already started. Ex: MLG, ESL, WCG, Zotac,.... do i need to go on?
kids now a days dont really know what esport is anymore.
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I think the only thing that isn't evolved in Starcraft 2 is the player. It's impossible to make such definitive accusations about a game that develops around player understanding and strategy, two things that arguably take years to develop. If you look at the evolution of Starcraft and its players, you'll see that it took a very long time to become what it is today. There's a very drawn out timeline. For example, there were periods where players like Boxer could excel with creative strategy, and then there came periods where players would only excel with very mechanical play that required endless hours of monotonous practice to compete. How radically different is that? All these things happened and developed over years. I can't fault people for expecting Starcraft 2 to become what Starcraft 1 is immediately since both games carry the same title, but these games carry a very delicate balance that takes time to understand, and the games are very different. The level of micromanagement you expect to see in Starcraft 2 can't even begin until people begin to understand core game mechanics, something which is just beginning to happen now.
As a spectator sport, the game will only be as interesting as the players are developed, and people are basically beginners at the moment regardless of their "gosu" backgrounds.
I just wish people could stop being so declarative about the state of the game. Inexperienced players and strategies does not mean that the game is poor, less monotony in macro does not mean that the game is easier, and just because people play and think about the game, at this time, in black and white terms with hard counters does not mean that the game is about hard counters. Give the players time to evolve.
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He is right about everything, it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Look at the way SC2 is being made.... SC was a complete fluke from a programming point of view, and it is a perfect game now because of the core content and the 30 patches came later slowly perfected it. All the silly bugs remained in the game turned out to be completely perfect for the game.
What they doing in SC2 is doing hard counter. They are trying to make it perfect forcefully . When you force something to happen it won't happen. Even if you get all the originall SC team together they won't make a game better than SC.
Comparing beta makes no sense at all, the main point to compare the core content of the game.
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All threads like this do is make me angry that I'm not in the BETA, and that people so overly disappointed with SC2 at the moment get to play and whine about it.
:'(
It's like I'm trapped in my own personal death trap designed by the Joker.
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BW wasnt a hardcore esport when it was a BETA. Thx for making yet another one of these threads.
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I agree on point number one. Espesially protoss, the race that actually used to have the most basic and allways used units like zealot and dragoon, now only have those counter units like immortals and colossi. Actually, this way a protoss can easily crush any ground army with double cost/supply. This can make macro useless to a certain extent. What good is it to have more units if your opponent can assrape them with only 3-4 of the "right units".
This is like running marines up a ramp with 3 lurkers and swarm on top of it.
Point number two has a bit of truth in it, but I dont think if you think about spectators, them most of them - being young anbd interested in PC games - will choose the better looking game rather than the deeper and more demanding one.
In general I do not think we have enough experience with the game to really judge it yet. And if Blizzard fixes number one, I don't see the problem. By the way, it might be better if Korea does not give a fuck about SC2.
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The only problem I have with the OP, and with many people's reaction, is the tendency towards absolutes in their judgements.
I think a lot of the points/concerns you have are reasonable to an extent, but you take everything to the extreme. It isn't just you, though, it is lots of people.
Ex.
Potential problem: A lot of the units in SC2 are just as effective without micro as they are with it.
Assertion made in TL forums: "micro is DEAD. SC2 suckssssss!!!!1!1!!1!!"
Ex.
Potential problem: The units can be hard to distinguish in battle.
Assertion made in TL forums: "I can't tell what is going on no one will ever watch this game, it will never be an esport"
etc. you get my point.
Lets just point out potential problems rather than try to decide in the next week whether or not SC2 is a success or failure.
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Well it is beta, but what other starting point can they start at other than hard counters? There is really no way to evolve into a soft counter game without some level of hard countering. It is BETA and patches are coming out to address these issues. It's possible that some stuff that make it newbie friendly could be gone tomorow, and some graphic changes could come tomorow as well, you never know because it is in BETA! This game is great so far in BETA and I can imagine it will only get better and more challenging.
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All of our post say one thing you can't judge one thing by first impressions. And if as you say you have been watching "a ton" of streams and playing some games.. you're terribly terribly blind dude. And I'm not being a fanboy right now (I am but this is not fanboyism) you give nothing the benefit of the doubt and fail to see all the awesome additions and new sides to the game. Ok, i'm done with this thread.. too much adrenaline..
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I think sc2 will have a much bigger e-sports scene than sc:bw did/does in the USA.
Yea, I know that is not saying much.
As for Korea, yeah you are probably right.
I am sure it will be picked up by the MLG tournaments, and Blizzard will probably hold a yearly tournament like they have done for WoW arena.
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I'm having a hell of a time in Starcraft 2 and I'm just watching other people play. It's fun and enjoyable. The battles aren't over that quickly and I still feel like commentators have enough time to say what they want. I'm finding it exciting and an enjoyable use of my time. I agree that Zotac helped show this. It was so much fun to watch. I'm sticking around.
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The OP has some valid points. I don't understand why everyone is bashing him in this thread.
The game is intended to be easier. You thing the game will be a success if you watch a FPVOD of a pro and you know there is not a chance in the world you can reach that level?
Blizzard had learned through the success of WoW.
Dumb down the game so everyone can compete and participate = more copies sold.
If you've played beta you know this is true, I can micro my lings and build 12 more in 1 sec from 3 hatcheries at the same time, something I could never-ever do in SC1 and my jaw dropped everytime I saw a Jaedong FPVOD.
This is not the case in SC2. I watch CowGoMoo's replay and easily mimic his style. This will not make the game a true esport. Popurality =/= good e-sport.
It might become popular like WOW which is boring, shallow, unskillful and god forgive me but it's the most piece of shit spectator competitive game ever created by man. Don't you wonder why it is so popular?
People don't like hard games. Dota > war3 is a fantastic example. It's the human nature and that is what Blizzard is trying to take advantage of.
In my opinion the original starcraft/diablo developers took the genius and magic with them when they left Blizzard, just compare the sound design... 11 years ago they made better unit and combat sounds.
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Ahh the daily whining post about SC2. Probably should get used to it.
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So much nonsense in this post.
First of all the 'difficulty' in a game has little to do with how hard it is to play a game against other opponents. The quality of your opponent is what matters and as a result the amount of good players in the game are what matter. General skill required to play it only matters for attracting good players and for lowering the amount of luck. Automining etc. will not make it easier to win it will just mean that winning will be based on other stuff like army composition, scouting, positioning etc more then.
As it stands now the game is difficult enough to not let the 'randomness' of big battle against battle or other luck factors really be deciding IMO. In latest years 'easy' games actually made online gaming bigger instead of smaller, just look at what stuff like xbox live and games like fifa10 do for the numbers of online players and it will just be better. A pro scene is the automatic result of a big base of serious players which will only be easier to get with starcraft 2 which is much easier to get into. People on here claim like SC is IT as far as pro gaming goes but outside of korea it really doesn't have big numbers.
Soft counters are still present alot in BW and micro still matters alot. For example zealot stalker sentry high templar vs MMM ghost is still all about careful positioning, good usage of spells etc etc. I do agree that some things are not so great yet but this can all change, remember that expansions will bring extra units and patching will change the role of certain units, for example infestors may play a bigger role later on in the somewhat boring zerg army till now.
As far as it being boring I somewhat agree but this is alot because the various strategies for races are not balanced yet. Terrran uses almost the same army against zerg as against protoss, protoss always uses the same army and so does zerg. Balancing various parts like buffing terran mech, buffing protoss stargate's etc can change this.
As far as spectator sport goes, I think both games are rubbish for non die-hards to spectate as the details that make the game are too hard to notice for outsiders. As SC2 progresses the game can get better then sc for watching though as lots of the new mechanics make it more action packed. For example the various drop methods (medivac, overlord etc.) have been buffed, there are cliff walkers and the high ground advantage is gone. This should lead to more aggression, it;s just not shown yet.
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A kind of sport or Esport is always that successfull, the more players it play. Sc2 will play much more people(because of graphics easier gameplay etc...) so there are more people who are watching pro gaming, more money etc... - SC BW will be something for Gamelovers, but as an top Esports Game, sry no chance in my opinion.
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I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing.
It seems like the common argument is that SC2 is less exciting and more "staged" of an RTS than SCBW. And then everyone rushes to defend SC2 because its new and people are excited about it right now. They say "its only the beta, SC1 took years and years to get good". But the counter to that argument for me is that so much of what Blizzard has come up with for SC2 is lacking (in my opinion). It seems like they werent even fans of high level BW at all, and they only got the jist of it and then made a game that is a monument to those limited perceptions. Thats why i think that concern for SC2 even in the beta is OK. Its because the direction Blizzard has taken with SC2, and their inability to forsee fundamentally inferior gameplay elements is concerning. Basically, if they arent making it perfect as they can now, how are they going to fix it in expansions? To me it seems totally reasonable to believe they will continue the already established trend with SC2, which is to create gameplay elements that SHOULD be fun and SHOULD be competitive and interesting but for some reason, just arent.
That being said though, i dont hate SC2, and i hope everything gets worked out. People should stop throwing the lessons learned from SCBW under the bus just because there is a prettier girl in town all of a sudden. Not everything new is better and not every square peg can be forced into a round hole. I am all for hoping that SC2 will become even better than BW, but hoping really doesnt help much. Blizzard needs to actually change the game for the better for that to happen.
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Truth be told I think a game's quality and how "good" it is doesn't neccessarily make an e-sport. It sounds like you think that SC1 was some amazing game originally which was why it became an e-sport, but I don't think that is the case. It became an e-sport long before it became so balanced and amazing. I don't know how accurate it is but it sounds like from the recent IntoTheRainbow interview that back in the day, sc was not balanced so some teams wouldn't even recruit Protoss players. From what I've heard, SC2 is better now than SC1 was back in the day.
On March 23 2010 04:13 Mellotron wrote:
I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing.
It looks to me like they have been addressing all the major issues the players have been talking about...
Mothership OP, so they nerfed it. Protoss still too strong so nerfed them. Terran too weak so they buffed them, zerg too strong so they nerfed them...
The only major complaint I've seen that they havn't addressed so far is high ground advantage.
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On March 23 2010 02:20 koOma wrote:
I believe in StarCraft 2.
I ALSO believe in StarCraft 2.
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I believe in blizzard's dedication to making SC2 a hardcore eSport, and as such I believe it will be fine tuned over the next 2+ years to make it into the game we're all hoping for in this community.
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They havent addressed the complaints about audio (which started years before the beta was out), lan, the hard counter system, and on and on.
I personally dont think that balance changes are difficult or even what is on trial when someone says that SC2 isnt as good as SCBW. If you can look at the Infestors spawn terran ability and tell me thats more entertaining and awesome for gameplay than Dark Swarm then i dont know what to say. The point im trying to make is, despite being professionals and having a ton of experience, Blizzard missed some of the huge factors in what made SCBW so great. Its not about tweaking unit stats. I think some of the fundamentals are off in SC2, and what is odd to me is that no one at Blizzard complained or had a better idea. Take for example the high ground mechanic in SC2... it really takes a ton of the fun and feel that was great in BW out of the game. Why would Blizzard do that? Did they think they had something better? Because in 10 minutes of playing i was already bored of the new high ground mechanic and theyve been testing it for years. Basically, im just pointing out that SC2 skepticism can come from places other than just unit numbers balancing or graphics. I feel that its totally acceptable to doubt the future of SC2 simply because of Blizzards inability to see what people really are looking for. In many ways iccup is superior to Bnet 2. Anyone who truly loved and understood BW would have built it from the ground up to build upon iccups successes. These are the types of things that make me think no amount of patching or expansions will help. Blizzard has to really listen to what people are saying and stop saying "we think its fine".
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On March 23 2010 04:32 Shiladie wrote:
I believe in blizzard's dedication to making SC2 a hardcore eSport, and as such I believe it will be fine tuned over the next 2+ years to make it into the game we're all hoping for in this community.
Blizzard dedication into making a game a hardcore esport should strike fear into the hearts of people everywhere.
I don't mean that in a good way.
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But maybe it is fine and there is just a group of stubborn hardcore players that do not like to adapt to a new game and just want the old game with new graphics?
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On March 23 2010 02:24 G.s)NarutO wrote:
First of all your post gives me headache not because some of the statements you make are true, but also you didn't even put a bit of effort into your post. If you want to go into detail about why Starcraft 2 isn't nearly as good as Starcraft in the aspect of e-Sports you should take some time to spellcheck, maybe mark the important points, but you just didn't.
he said he did the best grammar he could. and ur english isn't astounding either.
he's probably not a native english speaker, like much of TL. cut him a break.
if you don't like his non-points, that's cool, but don't attack his grammar imo.
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On March 23 2010 04:14 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2010 04:13 Mellotron wrote:
I just hope that Blizzard does what they say they are willing to do, and change the game based on player feedback. Before the beta came i heard Dustin Browder say repeatedly that they would listen to what people were saying and fix those problems. But so far no matter how strong of a complaint all they say is "we think its fine", and do nothing. It looks to me like they have been addressing all the major issues the players have been talking about... Mothership OP, so they nerfed it. Protoss still too strong so nerfed them. Terran too weak so they buffed them, zerg too strong so they nerfed them... The only major complaint I've seen that they havn't addressed so far is high ground advantage.
well yea sure they've addressed the really easy stuff that just requires changing some stats on units/upgrades, but blizzard has been ignoring a lot of the communities big complaints for years. No LAN, high ground advantage (i remember as early as 2008 people complained about it), zerg is boring, etc
now hopefully these arent actually being ignored but since theyre such large and complex topics to address and "fix", it's just taking blizzard a while to work on them. although much more realistically they are just not going to change anything very much in regards to high ground, zerg, and hard counters. i would LOVE to eat my words on this though.
truth to be told i think sc2 is still pretty fun right now, but i feel that it's mostly just the novelty of it being a brand new game with lots of new stuff (especially for me since ive switched from Z to P, Z got boring in a week honestly), and once the honeymoon is over with it I'll be a lot more bored with it all and probably be back to BW by the end of the year. That is, unless Blizzard drastically changes a lot before release.
also it's completely stupid to say that SC2 is better than SC1 was when it was in beta. SC1 beta isnt the other game competing for our time, BW is. and right now BW is a lot better than SC2. sure SC2 will have 2 more expansions that might finally "make it right", but that's lame as shit. SC2 should ideally be a better game that BW from day 1 of release (final release not beta lol), and then the expansions should make it even better.
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On March 23 2010 02:13 lunar3force wrote:
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
Seeing Artosis video it is amasing how little some of top Korean players care about SC2. When head coatch say SC2 is to simple and too fast its clear they are not impressed at all. Blizz vs Kespa situation makes it even worse. And face it, if Starcraft 2 become foreign only esport it will happen same thing what was happened to W3, it will stay popular for couple of years then disapear for mayority of people.People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
It's kinda disappointing that some people think that "If Korea and kespa isn't all-in in SC2 beta, then SC2 will never become an eSport!".
Of course, the most skilled SCBW players are in Korea, and the Korean's Starcraft scene is big, but like some other people said, it will take a while(many months, years, balance patches, expansions, and at least a game release..........) for such a huge professional scene to make the switch to a new game. They're 2 different games, maybe they wont even make the switch.
But I'm pretty sure SC2 will survive many years as an eSport, even if Korea never makes the switch.
It's like if a professional Skiing league would've all switched to Snowboarding when it was invented... Of course, some of them switched for all the "more stylish/newer" aspects of the sport/game, but a lot of people still practice the sport. SCBW and SC2 are both different games, with different strengths, weaknesses and issues, but the gamer population is huge enough for more than 1 GOOD RTS imho.
Korea/Kespa has been one of the first well organized progamer league, but many, many more have the potential to become big and important(maybe not as sick and huge as Korean's SCBW scene, but still) especially with the release of such an expected title.
On March 23 2010 02:13 lunar3force wrote:
...People need players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu to idolise, nobody really care about foreigns. They respect them but its not the same thing.
Maybe it's true for the SCBW scene, but with a new game, comes a new scene. Personally, I cared about which foreigners were able to make it into big tournaments, it showed that I don't need to be born in a specific country to be good at SCBW, you know... Yes, I'm a foreigner, so maybe my opinion is biased, but I wouldn't mind idolizing a progamer coming from Sweden, France, US, or even Canada, to motivate me to become better at the game...
Anyway, you have some good points, and the game sure needs some improvement before to be considered as the RTS of the future, but for 1.5months into the beta, SC2 is a hell of a good game. I don't know if you've took part in any other beta in your 17years of gaming experience, but personally it's the cleanest beta I've seen yet, and by far.
Edit: Fixed some mistakes, sorry for my bad English again.
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On March 23 2010 04:49 Artrey wrote:
But maybe it is fine and there is just a group of stubborn hardcore players that do not like to adapt to a new game and just want the old game with new graphics?
No. There is no need for that. Brood War in itself was as perfect as RTS get when it comes to E-SPORT. Living and evolving trough all these years in a market that has the attention span of a squirrel is a fantastic feat for any game and proof of how much can be done, if done properly at the right time and place. Think about all the teams, players, money and the vast history we have.
So the question should never be how to bring Brood War up to 2010, but how to create the next RTS with the potential as great as Brood War. Time is a factor here people. And whether you want to give this game some time or not doesnt even matter. Because if Starcraft2 has what it takes, things will roll on its own.
I was in my late teen years when Starcraft was released. I dont care at all if SC2 is a success. Because we had some awesome years no doubt from the very beginning. SC2 certainly is like very early Starcraft (or DawnOfWar) in that people are _just_ playing again. This is a good thing, because BroodWar got so freaking serious (no not figured out) over the last few years. The countless hours of 2v2 / Hunters / UMS i played in Starcraft in its first 3ish years beside 1v1!! The shit we've done and the tricks and strategies that came up, giving you something new all the time was what done it for me as a casual gamer, but the pros with their dedication and how the stations presented and set up everything really did the trick for me as a spectator.
Right now i do enjoy Starcraft2 for what it is. Simply a fun game. Only time will tell if it has was it takes to be a sport. That is, making me want to watch players win and NOT watching it because i want to analyse and learn and implement it in my own games. That might be the angle for players like Day9, who give everything a chance because they want to be good at the game. But for me as a spectator, i want to be entertained. If not i turn the channel...no harm done.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
1 Month into Beta.
11 Years...
hmmmm....HMMMM....<font size=7>HMMMMMMM</font>
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EPT
