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Go play some Starcraft 1 without broodwar... without lurkers, corsairs, dark templars, charon booster goliaths it was also lacking... in this form and without all the balance patches it would have been dead by now... but it is'nt because it evolved... the same thing will happen to SCII (and i assume it will happen fast).
All we need is patience. And some people that file some feadback to blizzard... They are not stupid.
Even now in this early stage of SCII there is no unbeatable strategy or a race that wins 80% more likely over the other... or a unit that you just mass to win for sure... that alone is impressive and shows the quality of the design process of blizzard...
As a last thing consider how many variables like Unit Speed/Cost/colission Size/supply/damage/armor/upgrades/build speed/tech tree/abilitys/AI (to name just a few) blizzard can still change... you just cannot tell by now that it is impossible to find a setting that is just right and makes everything even more awesome than it is in this early stage...
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Problem number 1: BW had PLENTY of hard counters. The only difference here is that there are more of them, because there are no real useless units.
Problem number 2 : It needs minor work. IT'S A BETA
Problem number 3: Projecting your own feelings. Not relevant.
Problem number 4: You can only really judge by the SMALL number of players in the beta, for one. For two, you're judging by foreign players. Even watching the TSL can make SC look broken, simply because it's not being played on the same level that Koreans are playing.
Problem number 5 : Koreans are playing SCBW still. If you didn't notice, it's kind of a job. They don't have 12 hours to sit around and just play random games whenever they want - unlike many of these foreigners.
Blizzard has yet to release a title that isn't a complete hit. You're judging too much on the limited players in beta, the relatively low skill that these players have, and a few "it's too early to say" from a few players on SKT1. All of this is completely ignoring the fact that the game is still being actively worked on as a beta. If you really think that things won't (or can't) change during beta, you obviously have NEVER seen a Blizzard beta before. Even still, the game doesn't really need that much work.
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while i get the whole, its still beta thing, SC1 should have been a working up from point, not redesign the game around SC1 units, it should have kept the same soft counter system everyone loves and the slower pace, and its not that much slower.
The whole beta thing is really annoying, why forget about SC1 and everything that went into making it a great and still hugely popular game, when trying to balance out and make SC2 just as good?
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Alright, I'll humour you on this review of Stacraft 2.
I don't have a beta key, but I've watched hundred of hours of stream from different players since the launch of the beta.
Point 1: I agree that hard counters are disappointing, but part of the mecanic you see in SC2 was also in SC1. Units like the vulture had an attack that did an insignificant amount of damage to certain unit size. That was a sort of hard counter.
Anyhow, you judge Starcraft 2 because of one unit composition and present it as the norm (roach against immortals), yet it's not the norm at all. Roaches and immortal are the extreme exemple of hard counters, they could use some work, but no other unit composition in the game is that swayed. You'll find that Units like the hellion can be used either effectively or with insignificance depending on their position. A marine marauder force is 'hard countered' by Collosus, but with a good angle of attack and focus fire from the marauder to the collosus, they'll survive. So hard counter is hardly something to be worried about in Starcraft 2. Problems can be changed.
Point 2; I agree that units can be hard to see. The new ambiance light and shadows makes the team color very hard to distinguish, but I believe Blizzard is working on a solution, so it's really far too early to critisize that. Otherwise, I've had a lot of fun watching streams and game commentaries of Starcraft 2.
Point 3: I don't know why you feel the game is not excenting, I find it absolutely electrifying, and that's just from watching streams. On another note, it's normal that a game becomes stale after three weeks of playing. Take a break and return, it will probably feel as great as the first time.
Point 4: There's no such thing as an easy competitive game. You are playing against players and there is no 'iWIN' button in the game. Your opponents are easy to defeat, not the game, because you're playing the game, not fighting against it.
Point 5: Korea will most likely have the hardest time of all transitioning to Sc2 since they are so involved in SC1 still. You can't change a country in a month. Even if SC2 was immensely better than SC1, they would still be reluctant in changing.
That's my take on it.
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i also want to add that after watching sc2 i almost wanted to stop watching broodwar forever. if sc2 really does contain a meta game and turns out to have a really high skill ceiling (this is possible regardless of multiple building selection and auto mining and whatever) then it will be more successful than broodwar, simply because it's so gorgeous to look at.
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I agree with the OP but I think he totally missed the reason, the units clump much more than brood war (that's fine) and they clump closer when moving (to an extent that is bad). That seems to be a huge problem. I can see that being justified for air units, but it needs to be removed for ground units. IMO
This shouldn't be too difficult to fix, or it should be impossible depending on how the game engine works.
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Canada5565 Posts
Isn't there some rule about creating original, quality threads now?
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Sorry for bad grammar, I did best I could.
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1. You had a lot of hard counters in sc:bw as well and you can win battles with micro in sc2 as well. Of course you just chose the examples to your advantage, but there are cases for both. Imho the enhanced focus on unit diversity in sc2 is a good thing to keep it interesting and put pressure on the players to scout and adapt their playstyle.
2. Imho sc2 looks far better BUT you need to watch it in high resolution, it is bad on low res, yes. However we are living in 2010, not in the last century (millenium even!). At a good resolution, sc2 is awesome to watch.
3. pretty personal, hu? I still like it.
4. It is not easier, it has a better interface. There are still plenty of ways to distinguish the good from the bad. Just look at the results of all the european tournaments - with 500+ participants each, there were always the same guys in the quarter finals (with a few exceptions of course). Making a game more stupid and uncomfortable should not be the answer to skill requirements imho. Instead it should rather focus on making intelligent choices and award map control and scouting, which sc2 all does. A fast brain should be more important than fast fingers. 
5. We will see.
Imho it's the best Blizzard game besides Diablo 2, which is hard to compare anyway.
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Your post feels like you just wrote it in russian or something and ran it through babelfish before posting. But largely I agree with what you're saying, still I can see why others don't so it's a matter of taste more than anything.
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Obviously SC2 has some work to do to be the quality broodwar is as an esport. It is still in it's beta though with an opportunity for changes to happen. The way the game is played will evolve as the player base gets more experience with the game. Look at starcraft 1 without brood war. It isn't nearly as good as brood war in terms of competitive balance, not too mention the years of patching it took to get BW where it is. The player side of it developed over time as well. Sure we look at stuff like vulture micro and muta stacking and say "where the hell is that in sc2?" Remember though, that these were techniques developed over time. It took years after the release for muta stacking, something that is such a staple of the game now, to be discovered/popularized. Then there is the maps. A bad map can shatter the balance of the game ... maps in their current state weren't exactly around from the beginning either.
It is a good thing to point out areas that SC2 needs to be improved in - that is the whole point of having a beta. But don't condemn it as a failure yet. Give it the time that BW had.
Edit: By the way, there are some soft counters in SC2, and I'm sure more will develop over time. For example ... playing against hydras in a tvz, hellions and banshees act as soft counters ... at least imo. Hellions with their igniter upgrade can really tear up hydras, the problem is hydras can also put some serious hurting on hellions. If you attack walk them into eachother the hyras win handily, but if you control the hellions well and flank you will win. It is the same thing with banshees against hydras. Both of them can take eachother out pretty well. In a straight up fight it is usually pretty darn close. But using banshees air mobility and hydras slow speed against them you can win more decisively (not too mention cloak if they don't have detectors).
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I agree with the whole article. Its all true, something has to change... I really hope that blizzard will do something. Post it on blizzard forum man !
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I don't really see why #5 is a problem, as while we all definitely enjoy the korean pro scene, the overwhelming majority of us are from outside Korea. If SC2 could foster an international pro scene, which I think it will, wouldn't that be a little more convenient to follow?
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I want to believe in SC2 but the game makes it hard for me to believe 
If it stays the same with the basic way the units are controlled and moves and so on then I'll prolly revert to BW only to find noones playing anymore T_T
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On March 23 2010 02:56 DorF wrote:I want to believe in SC2 but the game makes it hard for me to believe If it stays the same with the basic way the units are controlled and moves and so on then I'll prolly revert to BW only to find noones playing anymore T_T
People tend to revert back to the superior game (Smash, wc3, tekken tag to name a few). So I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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You aren't watching the right matches. The best VOD games I've seen (some of Day9's, Husky's, and HD's) have been just as compelling as great spectator BW games. The difference is that even the top players are still mastering the game and figuring things out, so these games rarely blossom at this point.
1. BW had tons of hard counters
2. Unit clumping is relevant, but SC2 is an awesome visual spectacle (sound needs work though)
3. It's beta and most strategies are very basic and simple, since 'standard' is still evolving
4. No way to tell, but at the outset it looks just as hard if not moreso
5. Kespa won't just abandon such a successful game the moment the sequel's beta comes out. The transition will happen over months and years. Pro gamers don't have time to play the sc2 beta because they still have to play SC1 full time right now!
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Oh my goood
Problem number 2 : SC2 as spectator sport is much worse than BW -how in gods name is that possible. With the beautifulkl graphics and even more emphasis on agression it is a better spectator sport.
Problem number 3: SC2....boring game? - yah 300 apm is really boring barely have anything to do
Problem number 4: SC2 is easy game ( compared to BW )
here is no denying, SC2 is 10X more easier than BW.
There is every denying.. Yes there are things that require less actions to do, BUT you have a ton allot more to do now. When the good people figure out the ballance of their actions it will be as difficult to get to their level as in BW.
Problem number 5 : Korea lukeworm welcome
I hate to say that, but Korea doesn't really care.. they have a great SC 1 scene right now and they won't jump the gun untill the game is tweaked ina a year or untill all the expos come out. Koreans play starcraft because koreans play starcraft.. that's it..
I'm sorry for my rage,but I really disagree with your opinion.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Problem number 2 : SC2 as spectator sport is much worse than BW
This is also big problem as BW is such a joy to watch. Everything is so clean and easy on the eyes. you can see every unit, where it is, what is it doing ect. In SC2 big battles are complete mess. Its just 2 big armies engage in battle, theres lasers, rockets, whatever flying all over the place and units themselfs are so clumped together...just focus fireing tiny ghost in big mess of colors is hard especially when armyes die in 2 seconds. That leaves little chance for exciting battles like in BW where you chear for every tank, for every unit while they struggle to stay alive. Some of videos are so exciting and awe inspiring it is incredible. In SC2 low setting are too ugly and unnatural while high/ultra are to much detailed, processed.
Problem number 3: SC2....boring game?
Ok this is hugely subjective, I find SC2 fun game but also boring one. It is hard to explain but I kinda feel that for completely new game it feels tired after only 2-3 weeks of playing. Problem may be in boring spells. Lets look at BW for a second, at defiler... when he stars shooting dark sworm and plaque, when multiple science weesels stars irradiateing everything, couple orbiters recalling and stasis everything in sight all hell break lose. Its edge of you seat kind of expierince for bought player and viewer. Sure in SC2 ghost can emp, raven can hsm and infester can fungal growth but everything seems eather worse or toned down and less exciteing. Zerg race in particular while crazy and dinamic race in BW is complete boredom in SC2.
Problem number 4: SC2 is easy game ( compared to BW )
There is no denying, SC2 is 10X more easier than BW. I feel Blizzard had big chance here with their 1 game per account. See even if you are first time RTS player who dosent even use shourtcuts you still have tons off fun if you play with someone of your skill level. On iccup this is not possible as there are more smurfers than new players but with new battlenet there is not need to dumb down game for hardcore players and its esport potencial. In BW on high level play you need to have sick sick multitasking ability, years of practise and with time you will hit barrier that you cant pass because its your limit as a person. This is old discusion but SC2 shouldent have auto mine and unlimited army selection, Imo smart casting and mbs is welcome edition but Blizz went over the top for SC2 to be as easy as possible.
1. I seriously don't get your point. It's alot better as a spectator sport and will draw a lot more people to play and watch it. Alot of people I know won't go near pro games of Brood War, because they say it looks dated and old.
SC2 battles are still as varied if you just micro. Yes you can just go box everything set it on 1 and A move in, but the real pros will be splitting up there units and not clumping anything. It's exactly the same in Brood War.
2. None of the spells are boring, it's just there hasn't been any crazy korean commentators shouting MISSSIIIILEEEE, SNIPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, etc. Storm is still as devastating as it always was especially if you don't unclump properly and that's the same with EMP.
3. I would hardly say SC2 is an easier game. The only thing that's possibly made it easier is unlike BW the units have decent AI and don't get stuck everywhere. Macro isn't any easier than it used to be and if anything is actually harder. When you look at Terran you need to know exactly when to mule and when to save energy for scans, you need to manage your add-ons correctly to make sure you're getting the right unit compositions and it's still very much a macro game. Automine doesn't make anything easier either, it just removes one click which you have to use on everything else on something else, giving you more time for army control and other types of macro.
Brood War suffers from the opposite of what you say. The trouble is with iCCUP is it's become too hardcore, a newer player to Starcraft will go on there, get raped and never play again. With the laddering system on SC2 which is really awesome by the way, it allows you to play against people your own skill level and enjoy the game. Losing all the time is not fun and it leaves newbies to the game feeling terrible if they can't play a game to have fun. It doesn't dumb the game down, pro level SC2 is still going to be ridiculously hard as it is now, just because the engine has been massively improved, units made so they're not actually useless and with Blizzards support I'm sure it'll be just as good.
All in all, I personally feel most of your points are wrong, but I can understand why you might feel that way. SC2 I'm sure is going to become a big game and it's a hell of a damn good game. Blizzard put alot of effort into creating this and you can tell with every small detail that they've really put love into the game as developers as they really know who they are targeting for and they plan to act on it.
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A lot of good points have been made about why Stacraft 2 should not be judged in it's current condition, and they're right. It's Beta, and there's a point to letting you guys play it. Blizzard isn't stupid. They consistently create excellent, extraordinarily fun games. But now they are letting you in before the game is even released. How can this be anything but positive?
An excellent point was made about playing SC without BW: it just doesn't work right. It's do-able, but nowhere near as good as it is with BW. Definitely not e-sport worthy.
And about it being "too hard to see," people didn't agree wtb Mozart's music at first because they feared people wouldn't be able to
comprehend all of the notes. People feared that having films with close-ups would confuse audiences. It'll be fine, you just need high quality and time to adjust.
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Pretty much every point you gave is opinion and can't be proven to be a PROBLEM for progaming.
I agree with pretty much every response given in this thread. Mainly that the new graphics make this a BETTER esports game (because noobs will think it looks awesome even if they dont know whats up), that there are a lot of hard counters in BW but at the same time a lot of useless units, that the game is very balanced with so much time left before release and with 2 more expansions in the working which will further balance things.
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EPT
