EPTEDIT : 3000th POSTS IN THIS THREAD
[SPL] Grand Final - SK Telecom T1 vs Hwaseung Oz - Day 2 -…
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Gumbo
Canada807 Posts
EDIT : 3000th POSTS IN THIS THREAD | ||
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Fr33t
United States1128 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2009 00:43 Kyo Yuy wrote: Savior was also definitely beatable during his Bonjwa reign in 2006. Look at that list you quoted. A large portion of those losses are to Iris, Hwasin, Midas, or Nada, all acknowledged A- or S-class progamers at the time. Of the remaining, 3 are in the ODT prelims, which are hellish affairs that have caused many strong progamers to crack, and 1 is to GoRush, who, while not amazing, was still decent at the time, There is only ONE game that you could call a game that Savior shouldn't lose, which was a lone loss to Justin, and Savior proceeded to win that set. On August 10 2009 00:43 Kyo Yuy wrote: I didn't say Jaedong was invincible, I said he's godlike. When I say that, I mean that he can still lose games. If you look at the bottom of that table I showed you, at the peak of Savior's dominance, Savior lost 3 games in a row during the ODT Preliminaries in November of 2006, twice in a row to Child and then once to Yooi. CHILD of all people, who has a win ratio of 34%, which is LOWER than Hyuk's ratio of 41%. You obviously don't realize how hellish those prelims are. Multiple BoX matches against multiple opponents in different matchups in a single day? Jaedong has had his share of losses in those prelims too. They're not really a good measure of how good or bad a player is in the spotlight, just because their nature means ANYONE can drop a game in them. On August 10 2009 00:43 Kyo Yuy wrote: Even a Bonjwa is not LITERALLY INVINCIBLE. Not implying that Jaedong is bonjwa, but even Savior lost to some of the dumbest scrubs during his year of dominance. But only ONE of those games could be called a game he should not lose. Jaedong has had two "should not lose" games in the past two weeks alone. On August 10 2009 01:30 Fr33t wrote: Fantasy is not even in the discussion for bonjwa and he won't be for a LONG, LONG time. 2 Silvers? Hahahahahaha The only title we should be considering Fantasy for as of yet is the Kong line. | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
On August 10 2009 01:18 Gumbo wrote: Fantasy v Jaedong in OSL will decide who is the next Bonjwa I feel. If Fantasy wins this, he will finally wins an OSL and I feel that Jaedong will become the next Savior. But if Jaedong wins the Bo5, golden mouse and a new zerg era. EDIT : 3000th POSTS IN THIS THREAD Well Fantasy can be the most entertaining player to watch right now, with uber micro and excellent strats. As much as I love to see him rising as a new bonjwa, I must say that it's not going to happen. The player who is closet to achieving the bonjwa title right now is, without any doubt, Jaedong. But even for him, I don't see it's coming either. If JD manages to make the next 2 or 3 years filled with his dominance then MAYBE the K-community will address him as the Fifth. Other than that, I'm pretty confident that the SC:BW era will end with The Great Four. | ||
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
On August 10 2009 01:30 Fr33t wrote: Fantasy is not even in the discussion for bonjwa and he won't be for a LONG, LONG time. 2 Silvers? Hahahahahaha Pretty sure Fantasy would be content with be considered the next in line for the Terran SKT1 lineage. That is a pretty beefy title in and of itself. | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 10 2009 02:12 QuakerOats wrote: Again, those 2 "should not lose" games are both ZvZs where luck plays a much greater role than in the ZvTs that Savior lost. The game against Hyuk was a BO loss and the game against Orion, that zergling break would not have happened if Jaedong scouted the right way in the beginning. The reason JD is considered godlike in ZvZ is because he frequently wins despite being at a BO disadvantage or scouting the wrong way while his opponent scouts the right way, but that doesn't mean he can do it every time because there is inherently some luck involved in a ZvZ. So Jaedong's 2 games have mitigating circumstances, but its immediately assumed that Savior's losses didn't? | ||
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C[SCL]
Philippines576 Posts
On August 09 2009 21:52 nayumi wrote: Celebrate like everyone else because their team just won the final? Seriously, Bisu has been SKT's powerhouse for the whole season. He bagged over 30 wins for SKT and that's one of the very reasons why they were standing there on the stage as one of the two finalists. Sure fantasy might steal the spotlight for being the guy who sealed the deal in an ace match. But every single SKT's fan out there will never neglect the huge contribution by Bisu. I don't know Bisu personally but I don't think he's the kind of guy that put his personal interest above the whole team's. I'm sure he is as happy as anyone else in the team because it wasn't just a two-BO7 final that mattered, it was the whole season that they have striven to be on top of everyone else. Exactly. He bagged 50+ if i remember correctly. He's about 75% or maybe even 80% of the reason they were in the grand finals and eventually champions. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On August 10 2009 02:25 TheYango wrote: So Jaedong's 2 games have mitigating circumstances, but its immediately assumed that Savior's losses didn't? Aren't you assuming the opposite? That Savior's game have mitigating circumstances and Jaedong's didn't? I think it works both ways but it seems by your logic that it only works one way. That Savior's losses are justifiable and that Jaedong's losses are not. For me it doesn't seem like that's the case. And regardless of justification, the fact stands that Savior has also lost 3 games in a row during his year of dominance in much the same way Jaedong has, to scrubs with low win ratios. You say the ODT is hellish, but what about playing 0.74 games a day, being expected to carry your entire team on your shoulders, and taking care of two individual Starleagues as well as the Proleague Grand Finals? | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
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Doso
Germany769 Posts
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skronch
United States2717 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On August 10 2009 02:12 QuakerOats wrote: Again, those 2 "should not lose" games are both ZvZs where luck plays a much greater role than in the ZvTs that Savior lost. The game against Hyuk was a BO loss and the game against Orion, that zergling break would not have happened if Jaedong scouted the right way in the beginning. The reason JD is considered godlike in ZvZ is because he frequently wins despite being at a BO disadvantage or scouting the wrong way while his opponent scouts the right way, but that doesn't mean he can do it every time because there is inherently some luck involved in a ZvZ. BO loss isn't an auto-excuse. Going 12-hatch on Outsider is an extremely risky thing to do in ZvZ, and Jaedong had already gotten schooled for it once. Considering that he could almost certainly have fought his way back from a more minor BO disadvantage, taking a risk like that against Hyuk was simply bad decision-making. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
Now that the average skill level is much closer to his, he can't pull things like 12 hatch in ZvZ off. - How did you think of this strategy? ▲ Boxer: The first time I thought up of this strategy... Hell yeah! Boxer thought up the idea to use this strat in the ace match. Ridiculously epic imo. It's no wonder that SKT can win proleague with both oov and Boxer coaching the team. | ||
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khersai
Poland366 Posts
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On August 10 2009 06:05 khersai wrote: I can't stand people dissing fantasy for his strats against jd. Calling them gay is definitely out of place. It was just some early not all-inish pressure. I think zerg players generally got too used to greedy 12-hatching (I don't see any fanboy rage like "LOL cheesy noob didn't let [...] 12nex/14cc, cause he can't take him straight up LOLORLFORLFORL !") without drone scout in ZvP/ZvT assuming it's safe. As the last games show, it's not. Maybe the emphasis here was on the "without drone scout" in which case I fully agree that JD should have scouted but Zerg basically needs to 12 hatch to keep up with a Terran. If Z 9pools and the T walled the lings are completely useless and even if he didn't he'll just pull a few SCVs for a short while and then build CC in base or build a bunker at expo. It's basically putting you behind for no reason (because most of the time T does not do some crazy and innovative cheese like that) which at progamer level is not something you want to do. ZvP too, if the P does one base tech and Z 9pools Z is putting himself behind. JD didn't even 12 hatch this game, he 12 pooled, but since he didn't make lings it was kinda the same. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 10 2009 07:26 QuakerOats wrote: Maybe the emphasis here was on the "without drone scout" in which case I fully agree that JD should have scouted but Zerg basically needs to 12 hatch to keep up with a Terran. If Z 9pools and the T walled the lings are completely useless and even if he didn't he'll just pull a few SCVs for a short while and then build CC in base or build a bunker at expo. It's basically putting you behind for no reason (because most of the time T does not do some crazy and innovative cheese like that) which at progamer level is not something you want to do. ZvP too, if the P does one base tech and Z 9pools Z is putting himself behind. JD didn't even 12 hatch this game, he 12 pooled, but since he didn't make lings it was kinda the same. ... Z isn't behind if it 9pools vs 1 base tech. It's even. Zerg is ahead if it 12 hatches vs 1 base tech. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2414 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 10 2009 07:26 QuakerOats wrote: Maybe the emphasis here was on the "without drone scout" in which case I fully agree that JD should have scouted but Zerg basically needs to 12 hatch to keep up with a Terran. If Z 9pools and the T walled the lings are completely useless and even if he didn't he'll just pull a few SCVs for a short while and then build CC in base or build a bunker at expo. It's basically putting you behind for no reason (because most of the time T does not do some crazy and innovative cheese like that) which at progamer level is not something you want to do. ZvP too, if the P does one base tech and Z 9pools Z is putting himself behind. JD didn't even 12 hatch this game, he 12 pooled, but since he didn't make lings it was kinda the same. I don't get why people call BO decisions luck. It's YOUR fault if you don't decide to scout in order to make the proper decision on what BO to do or to build Lings (in JD's case). | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 10 2009 09:22 Stratos_speAr wrote: I don't get why people call BO decisions luck. It's YOUR fault if you don't decide to scout in order to make the proper decision on what BO to do or to build Lings (in JD's case). You do know that there are some things that you can't scout before you commit to a certain build, right? It's not like you're going to be able to scout before you decide to put a pylon in base or at your nat choke in PvZ when contemplating whether to do 1gate or forge FE, you decide ahead of time. Nor are you going to be able to scout every time before you decide on going 9pool or overpool or overgas or 12pool or 12hatch or whatever. There is always a degree of luck involved in build orders. On how you follow up with your build afterward is scouting dependent, yeah. On August 10 2009 08:41 FabledIntegral wrote: ... Z isn't behind if it 9pools vs 1 base tech. It's even. Zerg is ahead if it 12 hatches vs 1 base tech. I disagree. I believe you're behind if you 9pool vs 1gate tech. | ||
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