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On July 05 2009 20:27 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:24 Rostam wrote:On July 05 2009 20:22 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote:
It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time. Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time. Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes. How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall. By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is. Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall. Ok good idea, lets not recall. That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans. How do you break his turtle?
Like MrHoon said, Bisu has broken Flash's defense plenty of times, and in fact Jangbi was able to do so as well recently in proleague. I would go as far as to say that Flash's strat puts him at a significant disadvantage against the elite PvT players (Bisu, Jangbi, ...... sometimes Stork and Best).
By the way, you do realize that Flash is arguably the most skilled Terran to ever player SC, the youngest Starleague winner ever (by far, in fact he is STILL younger than the Jaedong, the second youngest player to win a Starleague, was when he won his first league), AND the best TvP player of all time (Fantasy has to keep playing like he is right now for a lot longer to steal that title) who singlehandedly "solved" Carriers as well as the two most Protoss favored (against Terran) maps in recent memory in Katrina and Medusa? It's not like Shuttle, a guy who has never done anything except make a top 4 in GOM (where he was steamrolled by JD) and now a top 8 in GOM again should be expected to win.
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On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote:
It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time. Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time. Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
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On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
What??
Okay so your issue is that the word 'offense' is not what you thought it would be?
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Jesus fucking christ, then what DO YOU call offense? Purely UNIT ON UNIT clashing?
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Osaka27179 Posts
Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
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On July 05 2009 20:37 Tinithor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:
[quote]
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army.
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Osaka27179 Posts
Wow, you just got triple crushed in the same minute.
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On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Sun Tzu and pretty much every military strategist ever disagrees with you. You may or may not have heard Adm. Nimitz (I believe it was Nimitz, right?) saying about the US WWII Pacific strategy: "Hit 'em where they ain't."
As others have pointed out, the amazing thing about this game really is that Shuttle was able to keep up with Flash for so long - Shuttle's not even the best Protoss on his team.
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On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote:
It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time. Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time. Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending.
read his sig, get the hint...
thing is, like other sports and games if u do not PLAY IT, u cannot truly understand the mechanics and appreciate the genius in the timing of the attacks or the micro/macro aspect of the game, based on all ur post, looks like ur one of those that likes to watch flashy plays which are... well flashy since u cannot comprehend the wtf is really going on in the game....
u are implying that tvp, where T gone turtle style, its imba for protoss to beat them, well i guess like some guy above had said, watch other tvp games with flash, flash is not absolutely invincible...
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On July 05 2009 20:39 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:37 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:
[quote]
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that. No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army.
You don't think managing to survive against a protoss that was 2-3 bases ahead of him for the entire game is doing something? Ok
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On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote:On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:12 Jayson X wrote:
[quote]
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo. so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue? Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Flash is one of those players that the more you understand the game (and this does require playing it to some degree), the more you appreciate the subtle brilliance of his play. It's a lot harder to notice players NOT making mistakes, but that's what Flash does. There's practically 100 small mistakes (including lack of attention to detail) that almost every progamer would make that Flash manages to avoid each game. That's not to say that if you better understand SC you'll necessarily like his style, but unfortunately your lack of knowledge keeps you far from that even being a possibility.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
On July 05 2009 20:39 Manifesto7 wrote:
Wow, you just got triple crushed in the same minute.
LOLLLLL on the same post.
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On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
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On July 05 2009 20:41 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw. He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
I'm startin to think this must be a troll.
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
God it's like talking to a fucking wall. I feel like we're the one who's trying to break his turtle. Oh, I see what I did tharr.
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On July 05 2009 20:41 Tinithor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:39 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:37 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:33 Tinithor wrote:On July 05 2009 20:31 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:26 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 05 2009 20:20 Nokeboy wrote:On July 05 2009 20:19 Smix wrote:On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote:
[quote]
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom. Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!" Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion. At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0 Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense. Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice. I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it. He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that. No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army. You don't think managing to survive against a protoss that was 2-3 bases ahead of him for the entire game is doing something? Ok
Exactly, doing what Flash just did is nearly impossible. Macroing and reinforcing perfectly, seiging and unseiging perfectly, having amazing mine placement, being able to be everwhere at once and make sure that his tanks don't kill themselves!
It was just unbelievable.
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On July 05 2009 20:41 Nokeboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw. He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
/facepalm
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this discussion is polarized. neither player did so great actually.
game #1:
shuttle's cheese was retardedly predictable and failed big time. he got his zealots quite late considering flash had literally no vultures up to the mid game. he expands at bottom right but doesnt exploit that base enough (so as to leave little to no minerals once it got taken out, which was obviously a matter of time). then, once he is economically ahead, he waits too long after he is maxed out to take action. he never protected the middle properly, never flanked flash's army, didnt commit to taking out his CCs, and quite honestly threw away that game. Yes, flash turtle'd and i agree thats gay (forgive my bias), but it is still shuttle's fault that he lost that game.
game#2:
at the point when his observer sees all of flash's factories being built shuttle has about 1,200 minerals and only 6 gateways. mind you, flash has 9 factories. he went so heavy on the macro that he stopped producing units, and even gateways. yes, it was a cool timing push, but he saw it coming and should have had time to prepare. plus, there was a point (around the middle of the map) when he almost stopped the push. had he had a few more gateways/units he may have lost his natural at most, but losing the game was unecessary. aside from that, silly mistakes like losing 4~6 probes to the first vulture, not carrying a goon in his 2-shuttle-drop, and making 5 shuttles in total throughout the game (that's 10 zealots that could have stopped the push) all contributed to his lack of units.
as i was rooting for shuttle i cant help but to be at least minorly bothered by terran turtle'ing, but it was really shuttle who lost his games. seriously, he had the advantage both games (first game = map control, second game = 12 nexus), and he simply threw both away =(
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EPT
