Shuttle gets a good lead. At one point he has 2-3 more expansions than Flash, as well as 1000 gateways. Flash holds against many attempts to try to bust his expansions. Really long game (all expos taken except the middle) and lots of turtling, but very close until the end.
Watch Live If your stream is behind other's, use the hotkey "c" to speed up your GOMplayer and when you've caught up, press "z" to normalize the playback speed.
A Skyhigh-Flash BO5 would be pretty amazing, as would a July-Flash BO5. Hopefully Flash doesn't blow this (ordinarily I'd say there's no chance of him losing to a mediocre Protoss in a BO3, but Shuttle showed some inspired play against him in OSL qualifiers and Flash has been pretty busy lately hopefully playing for an OSL tiebreaker...)
I don't think July will opt for straight up play. He will probably focus on builds and fail miserably. Flash might lose a game but he will not lose the series
On July 05 2009 17:42 crucifix wrote: It's not on Liquibet? Anyway my predictions : sKyHigh > July Flash > Shuttle Reaver harrassment from Shuttle incoming !
Shuttle gave Flash a run for his money in the OSL and i'm sure Shuttle is out for revenge. Expecting an exciting series between these two. Flash for the win though.
I have no idea about the first match, but I'm assuming shuttle will win because this is GOM. On the other hand, Flash has been defying that expectation through the whole tournament...
Basically Skyhigh built like 4 or 5 Valkyries, July used up all his Scourge and only killed like 1? Then Skyhigh just murdered all of July's Mutalisks and had free reign to go and push July's natural with M&M and two Tanks. Nothing July could do, and it was over.
Skyhigh's drop is taken care of, but July is still in Skyhigh's base with Lurkers and Hydras, slowly inching slowly and slowly. Siege tank is there though.
Skyhigh's strat was too hard to win with in my opinion. He had a lot of things go his way that game (catching the Stop Lurkers, winning the Wraith vs Muta micro war, July not going in with Mutas when Skyhigh didn't even have an Ebay, killing the Hydra Den with Tanks), yet still couldn't win. The only thing that really didn't go Skyhigh's way was the Vulture hop, but even that is very standard for Zergs to defend exactly how July did (with one ling spotting).
On July 05 2009 18:47 deathgod6 wrote: Wow that game was really good. Great comeback from July imo.
One base two-port wraith is very deceptive in this sense, you have to do a TON of damage to really be ahead.
Its funny how that works. People generally know that 2port wraith is deceptive and then the commentators mention it. Yet, hype drone harassment so bad. Its just that no one can resist getting hyped when drones explode, no matter how many times you are warned.
SkyHigh on one base, and 3 lurkers in his base.. July spreaded his lurkers all around, wasting SkyHigh's scan.. Out of despo'ness, SkyHigh built comsat above the cliff..
On July 05 2009 19:01 Roffles wrote: July going for another expo. That's gonna be what? 4 base to 1. Skyhigh FINALLY lifting CC and trying to take his expo. So that's gonna be 4-2?
ah son of a bitch, i totally forgot to put up the liquibet for this, sorry guys! i only realized it just then when i thought to myself in my head, 'i voted for skyhigh, urrrrgh'.
On July 05 2009 19:08 GTR wrote: ah son of a bitch, i totally forgot to put up the liquibet for this, sorry guys! i only realized it just then when i thought to myself in my head, 'i voted for skyhigh, urrrrgh'.
On July 05 2009 19:08 GTR wrote: ah son of a bitch, i totally forgot to put up the liquibet for this, sorry guys! i only realized it just then when i thought to myself in my head, 'i voted for skyhigh, urrrrgh'.
good thing it wasn't up. I was sure I had voted for Skyhigh :D
On July 05 2009 19:08 GTR wrote: ah son of a bitch, i totally forgot to put up the liquibet for this, sorry guys! i only realized it just then when i thought to myself in my head, 'i voted for skyhigh, urrrrgh'.
Now all I need is Shuttle to win to make my day perfect, and also provide July a spot in the finals:D Anyway, I'll gladly settle for a Flash vs July as well.
On July 05 2009 19:08 GTR wrote: ah son of a bitch, i totally forgot to put up the liquibet for this, sorry guys! i only realized it just then when i thought to myself in my head, 'i voted for skyhigh, urrrrgh'.
I would have voted for skyhigh, so you're forgiven
I wouldn't call flash in a slump. In the group of death somebody dies. I think July's early game is a good match for flash, particularly when he is in limbo about his current TvZ policy.
I like them both, July more, so either is OK. Just glad July showed the newschool whatsup.
On July 05 2009 19:10 mrscheng wrote: july is in the final imo
july>shuttle july>slump flash
Because losing to Yarnc and Jaedong totally qualifies as a slump...
...hell, even if he finished the trio and lost to the (super-hot) Effort calling slump would be silly.
He's just this OSL's victim of the group of death.
He would've easily gotten out of that group if he didn't do stupid-ass builds. If he just fuckin' played standard...
Well, I'm not convinced stupid builds = slump either. Especially given the opponents involved, who both have a good chance of beating him straight-up. Especially Jaedong.
i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
flash is gay
Do you see why you Savior fans get shit from other fanbases? Seriously?
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
flash is gay
edit: or savior for being zomg zomg
Liking someone for their skill is insanity? How does that argument make any sense at all?
On July 05 2009 19:17 mrscheng wrote: i can predict slumps: they way flash lost against standard muta play is beginning of slump. ull see
and fwiw: anyone who likes flash is a bell end, liking someone purely for their skill is insanity, if ur gonna be a fan of a starcraft player the player has to have something extra in his arsenal like pusan, having a cool head, or tossgirl being a girl, or firebathero for being coolest on earth etc. etc.
flash is gay
You, sir, have clearly never watched:
1) Flash's bionic control. 2) Any TvT with Flash vs a top TvTer ever (Flash vs UpMagic, Flash vs Leta, Flash vs fantasy, ...).
On July 05 2009 19:21 keV. wrote: You clearly do not know anything about flash (or starcraft in general) if you think his fan base is purely based on skill.
?
i know what i know and based on that i dont like flash, just like you guys apparently dont like savior
edit: or maybe savior isnt a good example, you probs just dont like his fanbase. make the player backho
Omfg flash's face look so weird -.- I believe! this is going to be a very good match =P
edit: shuttle is one of the practice partners of Flash??? i think that I read a interview of flash saying that he always plays against him (or another toss from other team)
It seems noone saw Shuttle vs Hwasin on this map XD. Shuttle sure knows how to macro hard on this map. his only problem is that he goes very zeal heavy when he remacros, but he has so many gates expos it doesnt even matter.
On July 05 2009 19:48 Nokeboy wrote: Spider mines are dumb, you can just spider mine your entire base and just turtle all game until you finally are maxxed:-/
Turtling in general is like this.
The problem is, you have to do it perfectly... and Flash is one of the few Terrans who can.
that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
On July 05 2009 20:02 Nokeboy wrote: that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
PM me or something if you ever find any other Terran who can do this successfully (on a regular basis, no less).
No matter how boring it looks at first, once you realize what a glacier is doing it's amazing.
On July 05 2009 20:02 Nokeboy wrote: that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
That game is what happens to me on iccup every game PvT.
1. Protoss plays nice. Gets a good lead 2. Protoss, despite have 2 or even 3 more expansions, loses units to imba tanks 3. Protoss barely manages to live, but only to be mined out of all bases 4. Terran 1a2a3a gg, even though he was 3 bases behind the whole game
On July 05 2009 20:02 Nokeboy wrote: that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
PM me or something if you ever find any other Terran who can do this successfully (on a regular basis, no less).
No matter how boring it looks at first, once you realize what a glacier is doing it's amazing.
It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Some bad decision making by Shuttle, he should really have had that game :/ Pretty hard to attack the Terran with all those choke points, but still -.-
Why don't protoss just make templars and archons when they are low on minerals and recal or something ? If he stormed the SCVs one more time shuttle could have won that .
On July 05 2009 20:04 RoieTRS wrote: That game is what happens to me on iccup every game PvT.
1. Protoss plays nice. Gets a good lead 2. Protoss, despite have 2 or even 3 more expansions, loses units to imba tanks 3. Protoss barely manages to live, but only to be mined out of all bases 4. Terran 1a2a3a gg, even though he was 3 bases behind the whole game
Leave it to a toss 1a2a3a player to not see how flash outplayed shuttle, and how shuttle fucked up by not using observers.
As usual, Flashs late game play is fucking amazing. But this kind of TvP will still lead him nowhere when the opponent is not Shuttle. Shuttles gameplan was really good, but his execution lackluster. I don't see Flash go anywhere against S-Class Protoss with that kind of play.
On July 05 2009 20:02 Nokeboy wrote: that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
The protoss was way more stupid in that game.
Also let's not forget that on Heartbreak PvT, P can do something like proxy a Gateway, have it almost completely blocked, and still come out even or ahead because T has to be prepared for ANY possible follow up at that point.
Shuttle's macro is pretty beastly actually - no other Terran would have won that game playing that style, though of course many Terrans won't play that style.
Seriously how can you say shuttle played bad? He made one major mistake when he didn't attack 6 o'clock right away after his dual recall, other than that he did exactly what he was supposed to do, attack positions where he had more units, nice storms, stasises, recalls. Flash just defended like a champion
On July 05 2009 20:02 Nokeboy wrote: that is one of the reasons while I watch this game instead of play it. that is so cheesy, it was 160 to 100, shuttle attacks and then its 90 to 120 and there isn't much shuttle could have done
just stupid how a terran can turtle that hard and basically win by boring the other player literally into suiciding
shuttle played it perfectly right up until the point where he messed up his recalls.
if he recalled onto the factories and stasis'd the entrance I think he wouldve done a lot better
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Why not? Granted Flash isn't always as exciting as, say, Iris, but what makes a defensive style inherently bad?
I assume you're not basing what "should" or "shouldn't" be purely on your own personal resulting entertainment, because that's ...well, subjective, among other things.
On July 05 2009 20:08 Nokeboy wrote: another thing that makes me angry, Flash lost most of the actual battles. He held off everything successfully but lost about every battle.
Well he reinforced faster than shuttle, hence letting him win.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Why not? Granted Flash isn't always as exciting as, say, Iris, but what makes a defensive style inherently bad?
I assume you're not basing what "should" or "shouldn't" be purely on your own personal resulting entertainment, because that's ...well, subjective, among other things.
I was not entertained by that game but that doesn't effect my opinion. In a game where the objective is to destroy your other players buildings, you should not be able to win strictly by sitting in your own base, unless every race can do it. I haven't been watching that long (year or 2) but I have never seen a zerg or protoss successfully turtle almost 100 supply down and actually win at the end.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Why not? Granted Flash isn't always as exciting as, say, Iris, but what makes a defensive style inherently bad?
I assume you're not basing what "should" or "shouldn't" be purely on your own personal resulting entertainment, because that's ...well, subjective, among other things.
I was not entertained by that game but that doesn't effect my opinion. In a game where the objective is to destroy your other players buildings, you should not be able to win strictly by sitting in your own base, unless every race can do it. I haven't been watching that long (year or 2) but I have never seen a zerg or protoss successfully turtle almost 100 supply down and actually win at the end.
Terran is the defensive race, that's the way it is.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Why not? Granted Flash isn't always as exciting as, say, Iris, but what makes a defensive style inherently bad?
I assume you're not basing what "should" or "shouldn't" be purely on your own personal resulting entertainment, because that's ...well, subjective, among other things.
I was not entertained by that game but that doesn't effect my opinion. In a game where the objective is to destroy your other players buildings, you should not be able to win strictly by sitting in your own base, unless every race can do it. I haven't been watching that long (year or 2) but I have never seen a zerg or protoss successfully turtle almost 100 supply down and actually win at the end.
By your logic, then, 2 hatch muta is just as bad as turtle Terran - no other race can outright win with early air units (for a demonstration of which, see skyhigh vs July game 2). The fact that almost any zerg can 2- or 3- hatch muta, while it takes an absolute best-of-S-class player like Flash to turtle-Terran and win, only makes it worse.
It's called dealing with a game with three races - and I advise it.
On July 05 2009 20:08 Nokeboy wrote: another thing that makes me angry, Flash lost most of the actual battles. He held off everything successfully but lost about every battle.
There's no such thing as cheap in comptetitive play. Cheap and Boring are scrub terms for tactics they are unable to comprehend.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
On July 05 2009 20:01 sushiman wrote: ugh, so boring. just flash waiting for all minerals to run out. -_-
How else was he supposed to win in that position...
he wanted to see dropships with 20 vultures in them harassing all expos simutaniously while MNM micro against high templars
WITHOUT USING ANY MINERALS
I like seeing at least SOME form of harassment. Maybe an attack or two. Just sitting in your base and waiting for your opponent to get mined out while doing nothing isn't my idea of an entertaining game.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Whenever a battle happened they traded armies.
Besides, what Flash did wasn't HURRRRRRR IM GOING TO JUST SIEGE MY TANKS NOW AND JUST TWIDDLE MY THUMBS. You realize how HARD it was to pull off what he just did?
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
"Fair fights"? You realize most of that game Shuttle was 40-60 supply ahead of Flash with 2x as many gateways as Flash had factories?
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
Exactly. His gameplan was good, but he was not on the neccessary level to execute it. Nothing wrong with terran turteling, that is a trademark of the race.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
"Fair fights"? You realize most of that game Shuttle was 40-60 supply ahead of Flash with 2x as many gateways as Flash had factories?
Yes, he fell behind after losing 2 fair fights toward the beginning about 5-8 minutes after Shuttle pulled back on fail proxy
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
of course you can, but are fucking cluless in your statmennts, becouse you watch best players in the world playing the game you dont understand.
On July 05 2009 20:01 sushiman wrote: ugh, so boring. just flash waiting for all minerals to run out. -_-
How else was he supposed to win in that position...
he wanted to see dropships with 20 vultures in them harassing all expos simutaniously while MNM micro against high templars
WITHOUT USING ANY MINERALS
I like seeing at least SOME form of harassment. Maybe an attack or two. Just sitting in your base and waiting for your opponent to get mined out while doing nothing isn't my idea of an entertaining game.
Flash repeatedly took down shuttle's center expansion attempts, and didn't have the army to do more than that.
Oh, and that bottom right base? He had to take it away from Shuttle first.
No attacks my ass.
(Btw, this game remind anybody of Hogil vs Violet?).
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
THATS WHY SHUTTLE SHOULD HAVE RECALLED IN A BETTER POSITION. IT WAS SHUTTLES MISTAKE.
On July 05 2009 20:01 sushiman wrote: ugh, so boring. just flash waiting for all minerals to run out. -_-
How else was he supposed to win in that position...
he wanted to see dropships with 20 vultures in them harassing all expos simutaniously while MNM micro against high templars
WITHOUT USING ANY MINERALS
I like seeing at least SOME form of harassment. Maybe an attack or two. Just sitting in your base and waiting for your opponent to get mined out while doing nothing isn't my idea of an entertaining game.
Flash repeatedly took down shuttle's center expansion attempts, and didn't have the army to do more than that.
Oh, and that bottom right base? He had to take it away from Shuttle first.
No attacks my ass.
(Btw, this game remind anybody of Hogil vs Violet?).
I don't know the map too well but that expansion is Flash's and don't you have to go through the middle to go there? Good job taking out an expansion that has no defenses and cut off the path for reinforcements by turtling at your expansion
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
He already hallucinated his arbiters -_- Yet he decided it would be wise to not recall on top of the factories but rather it is smarter to recall on the supply depots and obvious turret spacing with mines in them.
He could've recall'd on the armory, he could've sent a suicide observer, he could done anything except that.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
He already hallucinated his arbiters -_- Yet he decided it would be wise to not recall on top of the factories but rather it is smarter to recall on the supply depots and obvious turret spacing with mines in them.
He could've recall'd on the armory, he could've sent a suicide observer, he could done anything except that.
I'm pretty sure he did suicide an obs to check it out.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
I love it when people who don't play the game think planting mines with proper spacing is trivial. Yes it's trivial if you don't do anything else for like three minutes.... Even using magic box can be optimized (and is) by better players.
Nokeboy, quit crying. There's no way Bisu or Jangbi or Stork (well maybe Stork, because anything is possible with that clown) would have lost that game anyway.
I've seen several styles of TvP from FlaSh. Those of you who say FlaSh ONLY turtles and pushes out at 200 at 3/3, that's untrue. I've seen at least several games where FlaSh does Fantasy-style vulture harrassing and then takes the game with a push afterwards.
On July 05 2009 20:22 Nokeboy wrote: How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
One of the best ways, actually, is to recall near the min-line. At worst, even if you lose your army you take a bunch of SCVs with you. At best, you have a clear shot at the CC and no mines (because of the SCV thing). Of course, you run the risk of getting your troops drilled if you recall right on the line, but hey, risks are part of the game.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Watch any Bisu vs Flash games. Bisu breaks flash's 'ultimate defense' many, many times.
Flash wasn't 100% defensive in game 1. He took bottom right away from shuttle and destroyed Shuttle's mid expansion several times. He just never extended beyond his reach. You can call him boring if you want, but he was incredibly outnumbered for most of that game and he abused the terrain to his advantage, made attainable offensive goals and let Shuttle's fear of Flash's 200/200 army convince him to throw wave after wave of units into disadvantageous situations.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Don't stasis the units at the front, stasis them at the back. God, every time shuttle did that a part of me died.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
By not suiciding all your units into mines over and over and stasising the tanks in BACK rather than in front so that your not building walls for flash?
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Don't need to actually break turtle to do damage, you can still do massive amounts of damage by placing your opponent out of position. Who said you had to charge into a line of mines and tanks mindlessly to do "damage"
On July 05 2009 20:25 Nokeboy wrote: I don't know the map too well but that expansion is Flash's and don't you have to go through the middle to go there? Good job taking out an expansion that has no defenses and cut off the path for reinforcements by turtling at your expansion
The bottom-right expansion is usually the left-start's players 5th base. The fact that Shuttle had it at all means that he was way ahead. Incidentally, another Shuttle mistake: with that much extra money, that base should have been pylon-blocked and/or had a bunch more cannons. Maybe a few more temps, too, but I can't remember his unit composition/size at that time.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Don't need to actually break turtle to do damage, you can still do massive amounts of damage by placing your opponent out of position. Who said you had to charge into a line of mines and tanks mindlessly to do "damage"
The way the map is made, you can't get them out of position lol. You just go in from behind your base and be safe from being caught out of position.
Maybe it is just this map that gets me a little angry at turtling because it is so easily done with the temple/minerals in the back.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Watch any Bisu vs Flash games. Bisu breaks flash's 'ultimate defense' many, many times.
Ironically Flash wins on Medusa huh.
Another problem was that it took like 2 minutes for shuttle to remacro his army back to 200/200 after each big battle having in mind he had 4 running bases and surely about 20 gateways at a time...his macro was terrible. As an example for the opposite - Flash vs Bisu on medusa, their second encounter on the map, after flash won the first big battle, bisu just came out with 9000 zealots and destroyed tha push
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Singular? Not reinforcing fast enough? Recalling into a minefield? Instead of destroying CC's which could've ended the game he runs the opposite direction? Constantly throwing units into walled off places? Shuttle made plenty and plenty of mistakes.
How do you avoid recalling into a mine field when Flash was turtling as hard as he was? He had like 100 turrets surrounded his base and science vessel at every expansion for EMP, tanks if no science vessel and mines where neither of the 2 were present. For a unit that takes 0 micro and no presence of mind to use, mines sure do a lot of damage. I am like F- player if I actually do play, but even I could take 15 vultures and plant mines evenly throughout my base so there is no open space to recall.
By all means, I would invite you to go on ICCup and play some TvP and let everyone know how easy it is.
Oh, and the obvious answer to your question is: ...don't recall.
Ok good idea, lets not recall.
That is kind of what I assume Blizzard put in recall, to break turtling terrans.
How do you break his turtle?
Like MrHoon said, Bisu has broken Flash's defense plenty of times, and in fact Jangbi was able to do so as well recently in proleague. I would go as far as to say that Flash's strat puts him at a significant disadvantage against the elite PvT players (Bisu, Jangbi, ...... sometimes Stork and Best).
By the way, you do realize that Flash is arguably the most skilled Terran to ever player SC, the youngest Starleague winner ever (by far, in fact he is STILL younger than the Jaedong, the second youngest player to win a Starleague, was when he won his first league), AND the best TvP player of all time (Fantasy has to keep playing like he is right now for a lot longer to steal that title) who singlehandedly "solved" Carriers as well as the two most Protoss favored (against Terran) maps in recent memory in Katrina and Medusa? It's not like Shuttle, a guy who has never done anything except make a top 4 in GOM (where he was steamrolled by JD) and now a top 8 in GOM again should be expected to win.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
What?? Okay so your issue is that the word 'offense' is not what you thought it would be?
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Jesus fucking christ, then what DO YOU call offense? Purely UNIT ON UNIT clashing?
Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
On July 05 2009 20:15 Nokeboy wrote: [quote] Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army.
On July 05 2009 20:36 Nokeboy wrote: He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Sun Tzu and pretty much every military strategist ever disagrees with you. You may or may not have heard Adm. Nimitz (I believe it was Nimitz, right?) saying about the US WWII Pacific strategy: "Hit 'em where they ain't."
As others have pointed out, the amazing thing about this game really is that Shuttle was able to keep up with Flash for so long - Shuttle's not even the best Protoss on his team.
On July 05 2009 20:05 Nokeboy wrote: It might be hard to do but its extremely cheap, you shouldn't be able to win a game by defending the whole time.
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending.
read his sig, get the hint... thing is, like other sports and games if u do not PLAY IT, u cannot truly understand the mechanics and appreciate the genius in the timing of the attacks or the micro/macro aspect of the game, based on all ur post, looks like ur one of those that likes to watch flashy plays which are... well flashy since u cannot comprehend the wtf is really going on in the game....
u are implying that tvp, where T gone turtle style, its imba for protoss to beat them, well i guess like some guy above had said, watch other tvp games with flash, flash is not absolutely invincible...
On July 05 2009 20:16 MrHoon wrote: [quote] so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army.
You don't think managing to survive against a protoss that was 2-3 bases ahead of him for the entire game is doing something? Ok
Bullshit, if anything you shouldn't be able to LOOSE a game by attacking the whole time.
Terran is best turtling race and best 200/200 army. You shouldn't be able to successfully hold off any type of offense until you get 200/200 imo.
so basically you're calling Shuttle's mistake a terran issue?
Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
Flash is one of those players that the more you understand the game (and this does require playing it to some degree), the more you appreciate the subtle brilliance of his play. It's a lot harder to notice players NOT making mistakes, but that's what Flash does. There's practically 100 small mistakes (including lack of attention to detail) that almost every progamer would make that Flash manages to avoid each game. That's not to say that if you better understand SC you'll necessarily like his style, but unfortunately your lack of knowledge keeps you far from that even being a possibility.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
On July 05 2009 20:17 Nokeboy wrote: [quote] Singular "mistake". Flash made many mistakes, including losing his army like 3 times on fair fights. Its ok, he is a terran and can turtle until the protoss kills himself from boredom.
Nokeboy listen to your own sig: "just enjoy watching it!"
Just because I don't play the game doesn't mean that I can't form my own opinion.
At the highest level of play, you shouldn't be able to be 100% defensive and win. 70/30, 80/20, 50/50 sure, but not 100/0
Your problem is that you only see the concept of offense as attacking. Offense is more than attacking. Offense is occupying territory. That is Flash's offense.
Anyway, you obviously didn't watch the game closely enough. Flash attacked at perfect times, taking the out bottom expos and eliminating the center twice.
I didn't really see many attacks. (Sorry if I call something wrong, I am sure you know what I am talking about). He took natural expansion, then mined out the temple, took that expansion then took the bottom middle expansion. None of these expansions required a fight if I remember correctly. Shuttle took the bottom right but didn't defend it. When Flash took bottom middle, he just went to bottom right and took it without resistance. Shuttle took all his expansion way too early and was mined out before Flash because he took them a little slower. There was no real attacks other than taking bottom right when no one was defending. Flash turtled successfully using less minerals than Shuttle used to attack, thus Shuttle being mined out quicker than Flash. Which is why the bottom right was so essential for Shuttle to take out because that was Flash last expansion other than bottom right which he lost
If flash hadn't of killed the middle twice he would of lost, so your point is moot. His offense is actually what won him the game, its just he had to wait for the right time to do it.
He attacked after Shuttle wiped his army attempting to break the turtle. It could be considered offense but taking out something that has no defenses isn't what I consider offense
So in your opinion this game should not be able to be won unless you attack head on into the other person's maximum power army. Ok, good luck with that.
No, the game should be won by actually doing something. Shuttle ultimately GG'd because he couldn't breach the turtle anymore. Shuttle initiated everything and was pretty much forced to act or to just get ran over by a 200/200 army.
You don't think managing to survive against a protoss that was 2-3 bases ahead of him for the entire game is doing something? Ok
Exactly, doing what Flash just did is nearly impossible. Macroing and reinforcing perfectly, seiging and unseiging perfectly, having amazing mine placement, being able to be everwhere at once and make sure that his tanks don't kill themselves!
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
this discussion is polarized. neither player did so great actually.
game #1: shuttle's cheese was retardedly predictable and failed big time. he got his zealots quite late considering flash had literally no vultures up to the mid game. he expands at bottom right but doesnt exploit that base enough (so as to leave little to no minerals once it got taken out, which was obviously a matter of time). then, once he is economically ahead, he waits too long after he is maxed out to take action. he never protected the middle properly, never flanked flash's army, didnt commit to taking out his CCs, and quite honestly threw away that game. Yes, flash turtle'd and i agree thats gay (forgive my bias), but it is still shuttle's fault that he lost that game.
game#2: at the point when his observer sees all of flash's factories being built shuttle has about 1,200 minerals and only 6 gateways. mind you, flash has 9 factories. he went so heavy on the macro that he stopped producing units, and even gateways. yes, it was a cool timing push, but he saw it coming and should have had time to prepare. plus, there was a point (around the middle of the map) when he almost stopped the push. had he had a few more gateways/units he may have lost his natural at most, but losing the game was unecessary. aside from that, silly mistakes like losing 4~6 probes to the first vulture, not carrying a goon in his 2-shuttle-drop, and making 5 shuttles in total throughout the game (that's 10 zealots that could have stopped the push) all contributed to his lack of units.
as i was rooting for shuttle i cant help but to be at least minorly bothered by terran turtle'ing, but it was really shuttle who lost his games. seriously, he had the advantage both games (first game = map control, second game = 12 nexus), and he simply threw both away =(
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
On July 05 2009 20:43 SilverskY wrote: God it's like talking to a fucking wall. I feel like we're the one who's trying to break his turtle. Oh, I see what I did tharr.
The real question is, when will he go on the offensive?
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
He expects him to make a push and lose obviously, since he has no idea how to play and obviously doesn't realize that that was the ONLY way for flash to win that game.
At least there's a chance Flash will be at Blizzcon now. I like Flash well enough, but I was hoping Shuttle would win, or at least take it to game 3, and show that he can go head to head against Flash. The first game he did that, but he got rolled the second game.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
I dont expect much from someone who is just a pure spectator. Nokeboy, let me telly you, as a Terran player, TvP is fucking hard. I could list why but I wont. You wont appreciate what flash did in this game if you are just a pure spectator.
And everyone going against you might be a clue that you are WRONG. Use that clue.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
So after that the game should be over, any way that the game might be won after that is obviously lame and takes no skill at all. K
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
He didn't turtle. He occupied territory. He forced Shuttle into making mistakes and throwing away units. He attacked expansions at a perfect time in order to A) secure them for himself, or B) prevent Shuttle from using them.
You don't have to like the style of game, but don't rampage in the thread about ZERO OFFENSE when you don't seem to understand the concept of the term. Considering we all watched the game...
Anyway, sorry you didn't enjoy it. I just suggest you enrich your understanding of the game a little bit before you take on the forum. It will lessen the amount of shit being heaped on you at the moment.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that doesn't mean we can't ignore people who refuse to learn the actual game.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
So after that the game should be over, any way that the game might be won after that is obviously lame and takes no skill at all. K
Skyhigh lost 1 vulture which eventually led to him losing the game. Flash did what he had to do to win, which is cool. I just think, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to win by defending the whole game.
Hate it or love it, Flash's style is in some ways a survival tactic. Today's games were a great example of two Terrans with virtually polar opposite styles, both of whom I really really like. But, while Skyhigh's style is very very fun to watch even for the uneducated SC fan, it is less resilient than Flash's style and we saw full evidence of that today in games 2 and 3.
Flash hates playing styles where a 0.2 second reaction mistake can cost you a game. He'd much rather lose on overall decision making and large scale tactics. Can you really blame him? Until very recently, he was by far the most overworked progamer in the entire proscene - continually qualifying and advancing in all Starleagues (something even Jaedong and Bisu didn't do as consistently as Flash did over the past 18 months) while being the only decent player on his team, depended on to carry KT(F) every single playday. He's chosen to go with styles that are resilient to playing tons and tons of games with the expectation of winning them all partly as a response.
Fantasy is probably a stronger player in Starleagues, and Skyhigh may one day become a Starleague monster himself, but NOBODY will have a higher overall winning percentage out of Terran players than Flash. Not Fantasy, not Leta, not Skyhigh, not anyone. Flash will have the highest Terran winning percentage for a long time to come. This is the reason.
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
So after that the game should be over, any way that the game might be won after that is obviously lame and takes no skill at all. K
Skyhigh lost 1 vulture which eventually led to him losing the game. Flash did what he had to do to win, which is cool. I just think, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to win by defending the whole game.
Oh okay, I'm glad we have that out of the way.
I suggest that you shouldn't watch TvP a lot in the future. Or you might get pissed.
On July 05 2009 20:50 Raithed wrote: btw shuttle vs flash, the end game, flash has 3 tanks and shuttle has 1 goon lol. we know who would win that, right?
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
So after that the game should be over, any way that the game might be won after that is obviously lame and takes no skill at all. K
Skyhigh lost 1 vulture which eventually led to him losing the game. Flash did what he had to do to win, which is cool. I just think, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to win by defending the whole game.
Lets apply this theory to real life then. LETS say that your in a war that you didn't start. The other country attacks you. Your GOAL in the war is to defend! If you manage to accomplish that shouldn't you win? Or should you lose because you weren't on the offensive? Why do you have to cross the middle of the map to be offensive? He didn't own his whole side of the map the whole game, he had to be offensive and TAKE his side of the map, he didn't get it free like Shuttle did.
On July 05 2009 20:50 Raithed wrote: btw shuttle vs flash, the end game, flash has 3 tanks and shuttle has 1 goon lol. we know who would win that, right?
On July 05 2009 20:38 Manifesto7 wrote: Now you are just being obtuse. Offense is only offense when someone is defending a position?
And yes, you are incorrect in thinking that Flash did not have to fight for the bottom expansions. Go watch the VOD when it is out.
I can't help but think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am willing to respect a different opinion, but I am not willing to respect an opinion based on what you forgot you saw.
He turtled the entire game and only acted when Shuttle failed to break the turtle.
What do YOU suggest Flash do in a situation where he is 40-50 supply down?
Maybe not lose a fight which results in him being 40-50 supply down?
So after that the game should be over, any way that the game might be won after that is obviously lame and takes no skill at all. K
Skyhigh lost 1 vulture which eventually led to him losing the game. Flash did what he had to do to win, which is cool. I just think, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to win by defending the whole game.
Oh okay, I'm glad we have that out of the way.
I suggest that you shouldn't watch TvP a lot in the future. Or you might get pissed.
I've been watching the matchup for awhile and always enjoyed it for the most part. Maybe I don't watch enough PvT but I haven't really found a game where someone looked so helpless while being ahead as that game looked
On July 05 2009 20:50 Raithed wrote: btw shuttle vs flash, the end game, flash has 3 tanks and shuttle has 1 goon lol. we know who would win that, right?
and flash had a lot of mistakes too...game 1 he had purely tanks, i think shuttle could have opted for carriers even though the map isnt great for them, and been better off in the end (especially since what he needed to do the most was CC sniping). flash also waited way too long to get his 3rd expo (min only), by then he could barely handle shuttle's overwhelming unit count from 5 bases. then in the 2nd game flash didnt really make any mistakes but i wasnt impressed by his play very much i gotta say, i mean his timing push was nice and all but i think it could have been stopped, and if that had happened, flash would have found himself 2 bases down from shuttle again. ok i lied, he did impress me--how the hell is he so good at seeing the blurrs of observers (or ghosts in his game against leta), that was neat lol
Its called real-time strategy for a reason. If you can't appreciate someone winning because of a better strategy then you are watching the wrong game.
This is the equivalent of invalidating a chess win because a player didn't move all of his pawns past the middle of the chessboard. Get a clue man honestly.
On July 05 2009 20:55 iLoveKT wrote: even in counterstrike the terrorists can just win camping and protecting the bombsites. pretty much the same thing.
On July 05 2009 20:55 iLoveKT wrote: even in counterstrike the terrorists can just win camping and protecting the bombsites. pretty much the same thing.
Big big difference. In competitive CS, both sides get to play each side. I think it is 30 games total, 15 on each side in most tournaments
If you think that's such an important aspect. Why don't you suggest that Shuttle just turtles for the entire game like FlaSh did if you're so fucking anal about the fact that FlaSh was so defensive.
Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
On July 05 2009 20:58 SilverskY wrote: If you think that's such an important aspect. Why don't you suggest that Shuttle just turtles for the entire game like FlaSh did if you're so fucking anal about the fact that FlaSh was so defensive.
Because Protoss can't do that? Like my signature says, I don't play the game much but I am pretty sure siege tanks outrange any defenses Protoss have.
Shuttle played pretty bad once he gained a lead, Heartbreak is unforgiving if you attack in the wrong places. Flash's battles, despite losing them, were economically better for him than shuttle. Shuttle's recalls were pretty bad and he didn't pick his fights well. He should have worked on preventing flash from taking his 4th. Once Flash had his fourth he should have attacked in better places rather than trying to crash through that little choke.
The idea that starcraft is only about the exchange of units is a truly juvenile one. I'm glad you enjoy watching starcraft, but you are sorely misinformed about how real time strategies work.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
(Also how is this any different from what flash did anything? He defended the attack and then countered Shuttle...)
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Ok, the spider mine post was funny but you are seriously on your last legs here. Exit the thread in one piece please.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Go away, you just 100% contradicted yourself troll. You said just a few pages back, that attacking without someone defending does not count as offense. Those 4 drones have an awful good chance against an economically ahead player.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
How would you even get the opportunity to attack if they don't fucking DEFEND the 5 pool first? Jesus fucking christ just shut up...
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
Nah if you turtle at the halfway point of the map and you micro well you can be more cost effective than the zerg and turtle indefinately
(Oh and don't forget to respond to the fact that you have contradicted yourself)
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
Nah if you turtle at the halfway point of the map and you micro well you can be more cost effective than the zerg and turtle indefinately
(Oh and don't forget to respond to the fact that you have contradicted yourself)
He is not going to quote things that prove his idiocy.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
Nah if you turtle at the halfway point of the map and you micro well you can be more cost effective than the zerg and turtle indefinately
(Oh and don't forget to respond to the fact that you have contradicted yourself)
Isn't that kind of like a contain? Containing someone is offense The two situations are different. If Flash would have been a little more offensive and attacked after the crap proxy, he probably could have won. Instead he turtled and fell behind again after losing the first 2 or so battles.
Now now gentlemen, he hasn't called anyone a name, you don't need to either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Realistically though, the opinion should have some merit. Don't you agree?
On July 05 2009 20:50 Raithed wrote: btw shuttle vs flash, the end game, flash has 3 tanks and shuttle has 1 goon lol. we know who would win that, right?
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
Nah if you turtle at the halfway point of the map and you micro well you can be more cost effective than the zerg and turtle indefinately
(Oh and don't forget to respond to the fact that you have contradicted yourself)
Isn't that kind of like a contain? Containing someone is offense The two situations are different. If Flash would have been a little more offensive and attacked after the crap proxy, he probably could have won. Instead he turtled and fell behind again after losing the first 2 or so battles.
So BASICALLY you are just saying that you think flash turtled, you don't like the word turtle, nothing we say can change this point of view, and that you are ultimately wasting all of our time for no reason. Ok
Also NO its not a contain if you just split the map in half and wait for the zerg to attack you Zerg can't beat 200/200 terran either so if the terran gets an advantage early by defeating the 5 pool and then defends his half of the map the rest of the game he WILL win.
On July 05 2009 20:59 Nokeboy wrote: Oh well my hero July will have to fight the turtling terran to get into the finals instead of can't-break-the-turtle protoss
You have NO argument here. If the other player is being offensive then you HAVE to be defensive... Should a player who beats a 5 pool by defending not count as winning cause he just turtled? You make no sense
Ummmm, they don't win by defending the 5 pool. They win by attacking after the 5 pool because the zerg failed his rush so is extremely behind.
Or you could just expand and defend all bases on the map till the zerg mines out, why wouldn't that count? It would take longer but it would still win.
I don't think that would work. The reason I like ZvT because if the terran turtles too long they eventually get ran over by dark swarm and ultralisks. So they actually have to have a real strategy to take them down before ultra/swarm come.
Nah if you turtle at the halfway point of the map and you micro well you can be more cost effective than the zerg and turtle indefinately
(Oh and don't forget to respond to the fact that you have contradicted yourself)
Isn't that kind of like a contain? Containing someone is offense The two situations are different. If Flash would have been a little more offensive and attacked after the crap proxy, he probably could have won. Instead he turtled and fell behind again after losing the first 2 or so battles.
I banned you as a compliment. I banned you because I do not think you are this dumb, so I can only conclude that you are trolling. And, after already being warned, you continued.
Just on the off chance that you are this dumb though, Flash actually did have a containment in that game. He contained the resources, and forced Shuttle to attack. It was an excellent containment I think.
On July 05 2009 20:50 Raithed wrote: btw shuttle vs flash, the end game, flash has 3 tanks and shuttle has 1 goon lol. we know who would win that, right?
On July 05 2009 21:10 Manifesto7 wrote: Now now gentlemen, he hasn't called anyone a name, you don't need to either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Realistically though, the opinion should have some merit. Don't you agree?
amen.
I thought his reception of a baseless opinion was handled fairly. Direct name calling didn't happen and he was given plenty of perspective and information and opportunity to perhaps change his wording and maybe even his opinion.
On July 05 2009 21:10 Manifesto7 wrote: Now now gentlemen, he hasn't called anyone a name, you don't need to either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Realistically though, the opinion should have some merit. Don't you agree?
amen.
I thought his reception of a baseless opinion was handled fairly. Direct name calling didn't happen and he was given plenty of perspective and information and opportunity to perhaps change his wording and maybe even his opinion.
I never once called him anything, i may have been heavily sarcastic but i didn't actually insult him.
On July 05 2009 21:10 Manifesto7 wrote: Now now gentlemen, he hasn't called anyone a name, you don't need to either. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Realistically though, the opinion should have some merit. Don't you agree?
amen.
I thought his reception of a baseless opinion was handled fairly. Direct name calling didn't happen and he was given plenty of perspective and information and opportunity to perhaps change his wording and maybe even his opinion.
I never once called him anything, i may have been heavily sarcastic but i didn't actually insult him.
Good job men! We defeated the evil troll by banding together and standing our ground. We did not give an inch, and finally, frustrated beyond all measure, he cast himself on our defenses, rending his guts and spilling his blood. Had we not defended so mightily, we may have lost to his cheesy tactics.
On July 05 2009 21:17 Manifesto7 wrote: Good job men! We defeated the evil troll by banding together and standing our ground. We did not give an inch, and finally, frustrated beyond all measure, he cast himself on our defenses, rending his guts and spilling his blood. Had we not defended so mightily, we may have lost to his cheesy tactics.
On July 05 2009 21:17 Manifesto7 wrote: Good job men! We defeated the evil troll by banding together and standing our ground. We did not give an inch, and finally, frustrated beyond all measure, he cast himself on our defenses, rending his guts and spilling his blood. Had we not defended so mightily, we may have lost to his cheesy tactics.
I don't agree with most of what Nokeboy said, but I thought there was a window where Flash could have built 4-6 vultures (or just used his marines + existing tanks) and attacked before Shuttle had an army to speak of. Do I remember the timing wrong (I'll have to re-watch when video gets up), or was there a reason why Flash couldn't attack safely?
I don't think he had enough facs up iirc. And he had to knock out the proxy gate. Also the bit where he had walled himself in, Shuttle had plenty of goons out by the time it was knocked down again.
Vultures might have helped, but Flash (being Flash) put up another CC instead. I may have to watch this again to be sure though.
On July 05 2009 21:17 Manifesto7 wrote: Good job men! We defeated the evil troll by banding together and standing our ground. We did not give an inch, and finally, frustrated beyond all measure, he cast himself on our defenses, rending his guts and spilling his blood. Had we not defended so mightily, we may have lost to his cheesy tactics.
On July 06 2009 01:06 Zzoram wrote: I would dig a July vs Flash finals.
They're playing the semis, there is no way they can play eachother in the finals. I would dig a Flash vs Jaedong finals.
Seeing July beat Flash would be satisfying, but seeing him advance to the finals only to lose miserably to Effort or Jaedong would not be. For July's sake I hope he loses to Flash in a tight series.
On July 06 2009 01:06 Zzoram wrote: I would dig a July vs Flash finals.
They're playing the semis, there is no way they can play eachother in the finals. I would dig a Flash vs Jaedong finals.
Seeing July beat Flash would be satisfying, but seeing him advance to the finals only to lose miserably to Effort or Jaedong would not be. For July's sake I hope he loses to Flash in a tight series.
On July 06 2009 01:06 Zzoram wrote: I would dig a July vs Flash finals.
They're playing the semis, there is no way they can play eachother in the finals. I would dig a Flash vs Jaedong finals.
Seeing July beat Flash would be satisfying, but seeing him advance to the finals only to lose miserably to Effort or Jaedong would not be. For July's sake I hope he loses to Flash in a tight series.
And what if Iris/Tempest makes it .
I would be so disappointed if Tempest beat Jaedong (again). Iris is one of my favorite players so I wouldn't mind seeing him beat Jaedong, but I don't think he could stand up to Flash's TvT so that would be disappointing.
If by some fluke the finals ended up Iris vs July, that would be pretty exciting. But Flash vs Jaedong/Effort will produce the best games.
I think an Iris vs July finals would be completely awesome. Of course, July would have to beat Flash. But if EffOrt can pull off the upset, Iris has a chance of beating him (I don't think he can beat Jaedong, though I'd love to be wrong).
July face-stomping Tempest would also be entertaining.
If JD or EffOrt makes finals, though, we all need to hope Flash beats July, as I don't see July being able to touch either one in ZvZ. (Though I'd love to see July go T again...)
game 2 skyhigh went for 2 port wraith... this bo nearly EVERYTIME looks dominant.. But... He didn't kill that many drones, that one cliffdrop was succesfull but that was about it. His atempt to break in cost july all his mutas (in a retarded way) and did nothing else... After that it was basically over. One base Terran is strong, but it's basically "all-in" - if your *final* push fails, you will be in loads of trouble.
Game 3 was just like... You go Metal? Well.. I kill your first 2 Vultures and laugh at you for the rest of the game.
Hello, i'm the god of war and won't be beaten by funky newschool strats.
Hello, i'm the god of war and won't be beaten by funky newschool strats.
he got owned by skyhigh's valkyrie in game 1 :o
That doesn't count - it appears July takes one game to warm up in GOM. This handicap is lessened in a BO5, which should make for a good series against Flash. Hopefully by then Flash has remembered how to play TvZ again (or figured out all the timings on his current new favorite build).
Woah... I went to bed 3 minutes into Skyhigh vs July game 2 feeling sure that July was going to drop it. I'm so glad he's moving on, this will make for a really exciting semi-final.
Reading this thread was pretty good for the lol's. That troll and everybodys reaction . In other news, somehow I thought these games were tonight . Poor me.
On July 05 2009 18:06 dl2agon wrote: Wats the BGM playing right now as they talk?
I'm watching the games right now, since a few different people asked it's definitely a remix of Children by Robert Miles, but I'm not sure which one. I'll edit this post if I find it because it was a pretty badass version.
Now we know why flash is doing poorly in the other leagues. He's a smart man, hes got his eye on the 45,000$. Doesnt have time to fuck around on those small money tourneys;)
I'd love to see July pull some kind of crazy zvz win against JD going with some variety of all in lings + drone drill (or something equally crazy). It would definitely only work once (if that), but I could so see that happening if it came to it.
I'm a huge Iris fan and I am starting to accumulate some guarded optimism about his play of late, which means its just about time for him to fail hardcore. July-Iris would be my dream matchup, but I don't see that happening in the real world =/
Game 1 is amazing. No other Terran would had won in that situation except Flash. In the current era of Protoss macro and semi-safe double Nexus expand, not many Terran are winning anymore.
Game 2, showed the skill level difference. Flash steamrolled Shuttle. Excellent timing push.
On July 07 2009 17:42 [X]Ken_D wrote: In the current era of Protoss macro and semi-safe double Nexus expand, not many Terran are winning anymore.
Eh, I'd say that trend is starting to reverse itself. When you have Fantasy sporting a 65% winrate tvp and guys like Leta and SkyHigh both beating Protoss's fairly consistently (though admittedly niether of whom have proved it against the absolute top tier toss players like Bisu) with more aggressive builds things seem like they are starting to change a bit. Not to mention the current map pool which seems to have acknowledged how pro-toss (hahahahahahaha) the most recent previous generation of maps was.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Tadzio/GOMS3/aiclassic3w.png)
sKyHigh vs 
July
Shuttle
![[image loading]](http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/Himg195/scaled.php?server=195&filename=doushen.png&xsize=640&ysize=480)
![[image loading]](http://www.serebii.net/art/99.png)
![[image loading]](http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/tessfalen/snapshot20080215123519.png)
![[image loading]](http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m7/NottinghamLace/1224013673370.png)
![[image loading]](http://reclamatione.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/spider_pig.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.neuralfibre.com/images/recBBQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.waynet.org/waynet/spotlight/2004/images/07/turtle_back.jpg)
