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On March 17 2009 03:16 Fontong wrote:
It' so silly that this guy who attended a class taught by an american thinks he now knows more than koreans that play the game for 10 hours a day and making a living doing it.
Whoa careful what you say. I understand that you guys are annoyed that someone who simply watches Starcraft and learns from classes thinks they know more than people who actually practice Starcraft several hours a day, but it doesn't mean casual fans can't spot mistakes made by pros. What you're saying is close to the "Well I'd like to see you do better" argument.
If we go just off qualifications and not what's said than all TL writers are wrong because they're not pros and practice less than Korean progamers. How could they possibly know as much as them when they are so much worse.
It's also in a way saying progamers are infallible because almost nobody on TL is a progamer. So progamers can't be questioned.
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Braavos36402 Posts
regardless of what classes at berkeley (lol) he took or not, saying that bisu lost because of some blanket judgment of bisu's personal motivations (that he wants to "finish the games fast and go home") is so stupid it's beyond even trying to refute it. also, saying that bisu used his storms wrong by storming lings (the main damage dealers that most good P's aim their storms for, instead of lurkers) is just flat wrong. you want to storm the lings. you must've been absent the day the class covered pvz.
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latent how do you manage to be wrong in EVERY thread I have seen you post in. Jesus christ it's incredible.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2009 03:16 Fontong wrote:
It' so silly that this guy who attended a class taught by an american thinks he now knows more than koreans that play the game for 10 hours a day and making a living doing it.
I think it's fair to criticize progamers. In the heat of the game without full information progamers make tons of mistakes. The problem is that the person giving criticism in this case is greatly mistaken with the majority of his analysis.
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On March 16 2009 16:33 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first? There's a huge difference between Bisu and Flash (I'm saying this as a Bisu fan). Flash has said before that if his opponent gets the lead, he will always drag out the game as long as possible. He'll take up half the map and defend it like crazy, making the game go as long as possible until his opponent makes a mistake and he can take advantage. But Bisu has *always* had an "I want to finish this as quickly as possible and go home" attitude. He could have easily dragged out the game longer by attempting to secure expansions instead of randomly attacking with the protoss ball. Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past. BTW, you need archons and zealots to deal with the masses of lings and protect the dragoons and HTs. They do the gruntwork and take tons of damage. The HTs should focus their limited number of storms on hydras and lurkers, not on lings.
Its ignorant to compare Bisu and Flash's play like that simply because they play different races and therefore have matchups with completely different dynamics. You've probably been watching a lot of Flash's TvT and TvPs where he pulls this off turtling+defending+exploiting weakness of opponents -> winning ( the game vs Hwasin comes to mind ) but you simply can't "sit and defend and mass" as a protoss strategy because its now how PvZ is played.
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Hoejja is so good with burrow and Lux's build in game 7 was ridiculous.
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What part of my statement came off as saying that we cannot criticize progamers? What I was saying is that latent thinks he knows more about starcraft as a whole than progamers themselves and is making stupid arguments because of that.
As Chill said, the majority of the reason we can criticize them is that we basically have full information about what is happening in the game and they do not. Since they cannot possibly take the most effective path to victory because of that lack of information, we can criticize them. Is anyone here claiming they know more about the game of starcraft than a progamer? I doubt it. This is why we can criticize them on the level of the specific game or the games they have played in their career.
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In other news, KTF should go on to face Hwaseung Oz right? I want to start making the banners for Playoffs Day 2.
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yeah KTF vs Oz next.
forgg aka benedict arnold takes out Jd and punches the oz coach
haha jk KTF fighting though
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I get a lot of advice and comments from my Korean friend, who's very skilled with Protoss. This is a guy who almost scheduled a game against Canata (before he went pro), but changed his mind because he thought it wouldn't be challenging enough.
Let me try to be more specific. Take a look at Jon747's youtube video of the match. At exactly 20:00, Bisu moves out from his 8 o'clock expansion towards the center of the map. You see that wonderful little expansion right above his? At about 10 o'clock? That's the one he was supposed to secure before attempting an attack. Instead he pushed to the center and got flanked, losing all his units in the process.
3 minutes later, Bisu macros up another force large enough to send a probe to that expansion and put up a pylon, with the obvious intent of building a nexus there. Yet 30 seconds later he AGAIN sends his units out to the center of the map, where he's flanked A SECOND TIME, and loses his entire freaking army. As a result he can't secure the 10 o'clock expansion.
By the time Bisu has macroed up a large enough army FOR THE THIRD TIME to take that expansion, heojja does his doom drop. Bisu has to abandon his warping in nexus to go fend off the doom drop, but he sends all his units THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE MAP. Naturally they get annihilated. Yes it would have taken time to go the other way, but he wouldn't have thrown away all his units.
Heojja had map control, but the difference between Bisu and Flash is that Flash will take every expansion he can and try to wear out his enemy. He'll harrass and harrass, and use his superior micro and macro to win the match. A PERFECT example of this is Flash vs. Hwasin in their most recent starleague matchup, where Flash came back from a 99.9% certain defeat to beat Hwasin, who became too complacent and tried to expand everywhere. In this match, Bisu was impatient, refusing to secure that 10 o'clock expansion and attacking the center twice in a row.
And Bisu never even bothered sending a DT to the 11 o'clock expansion where heojja eventually expanded, or anywhere else for that matter. DTs are huge in harrassing zergs and killing those initial drones to prevent or slow down the creation of expos. They're critical when the zerg has map control.
As for the corsairs, the sairs are used to patrol. Really there's only one place for heojja to drop, and that's where Bisu's forces ARE NOT STATIONED. That of course is his main. I remember a PvZ Bisu played where he spotted a zerg's doom drop and corsaired the heck out of the overlords. It was in a recent Winners League match, possibly his 2nd all-kill.
And just one more thing zulu. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't try to personally attack me or my posts. Saying my posts 'are always wrong' or questioning whether I've even looked at the map before... that's going into unnecessary flame war territory. So please stay civil.
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God I love all these arguments they are so heated!
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On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
I get a lot of advice and comments from my Korean friend, who's very skilled with Protoss. This is a guy who almost scheduled a game against Canata (before he went pro), but changed his mind because he thought it wouldn't be challenging enough.
That doesn't mean anything, you can still suck at starcraft.
On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
Let me try to be more specific. Take a look at Jon747's youtube video of the match. At exactly 20:00, Bisu moves out from his 8 o'clock expansion towards the center of the map. You see that wonderful little expansion right above his? At about 10 o'clock? That's the one he was supposed to secure before attempting an attack. Instead he pushed to the center and got flanked, losing all his units in the process.
You know what Hoejja would do if Bisu moved all of his army up to a little plateu? Attack his natural and contain the ramps with lurkers. Bisu needed to gain map control so he can expand without being vulnerable. It's a very simple decision that would be understood by anyone who have basic knowledge of pvz.
On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
3 minutes later, Bisu macros up another force large enough to send a probe to that expansion and put up a pylon, with the obvious intent of building a nexus there. Yet 30 seconds later he AGAIN sends his units out to the center of the map, where he's flanked A SECOND TIME, and loses his entire freaking army. As a result he can't secure the 10 o'clock expansion.
Same reason, you don't steal expansions on destination without having taken the center.
On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
By the time Bisu has macroed up a large enough army FOR THE THIRD TIME to take that expansion, heojja does his doom drop. Bisu has to abandon his warping in nexus to go fend off the doom drop, but he sends all his units THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE MAP. Naturally they get annihilated. Yes it would have taken time to go the other way, but he wouldn't have thrown away all his units.
The game was already lost by then, Bisu was on base and his army had been plagued multiple times, again, by the time he went back to save his base, it would already be gone, I don't understand how you don't see this?
On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
Heojja had map control, but the difference between Bisu and Flash is that Flash will take every expansion he can and try to wear out his enemy. He'll harrass and harrass, and use his superior micro and macro to win the match. A PERFECT example of this is Flash vs. Hwasin in their most recent starleague matchup, where Flash came back from a 99.9% certain defeat to beat Hwasin, who became too complacent and tried to expand everywhere. In this match, Bisu was impatient, refusing to secure that 10 o'clock expansion and attacking the center twice in a row.
And Bisu never even bothered sending a DT to the 11 o'clock expansion where heojja eventually expanded, or anywhere else for that matter. DTs are huge in harrassing zergs and killing those initial drones to prevent or slow down the creation of expos. They're critical when the zerg has map control.
As for the corsairs, the sairs are used to patrol. Really there's only one place for heojja to drop, and that's where Bisu's forces ARE NOT STATIONED. That of course is his main. I remember a PvZ Bisu played where he spotted a zerg's doom drop and corsaired the heck out of the overlords. It was in a recent Winners League match, possibly his 2nd all-kill.
TVT does not equal PVZ, I don't even know why you're comparing Flash's style to Bisu's, they play different races yo. I'm not gonna explain why you can't do the same in PvZ because you have to realize you're wrong first. The point about the sairs, the game dynamic is completely different, it just doesn't matter at all whether hoejja drops or not, Bisu would've lost anyway, he had been going on one mining base to I believe Hoejja's three for awhile up until the drop. With all due respect you don't seem to understand advantage and game flow, that is easily explained from a lack of experience. I was of course the same when I first started
On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
And just one more thing zulu. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't try to personally attack me or my posts. Saying my posts 'are always wrong' or questioning whether I've even looked at the map before... that's going into unnecessary flame war territory. So please stay civil.
I never said you are always wrong, that was fanatacist, your first post in this thread is the first post I've seen from you. Questioning whether you have looked the maps before is obviously fair, since a lot of your points are unreasonable if you take a look at how destination is structured.
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Braavos36402 Posts
And Bisu never even bothered sending a DT to the 11 o'clock expansion where heojja eventually expanded, or anywhere else for that matter. DTs are huge in harrassing zergs and killing those initial drones to prevent or slow down the creation of expos. They're critical when the zerg has map control.
okay this is complete BS, because hoejja already had 3 gas, 4 bases, speed ovies, and scourge everywhere before he took 11 o clock. a DT there, assuming it goes unseen (it wouldn't be unnoticed due to the ovies everywhere), would delay an 11 o clock expo by 30 seconds at the most, and at the time in the game bisu was already massively behind and it wouldn't have mattered one bit.
that's like saying o man, in bisu vs jaedong when bisu forgot to block his ramp, he totally lost a probe unnecessarily when the lings got in! he didn't move it quick enough when it was being attacked, did you know that each probe is crazy important in starcraft??? that losing one probe now exponentially compounds into losing more probes later!?!? google berkeley starcraft class to know more infos like this!!!!
also, did you seriously just compare a TvT to a PvZ and try to say Bisu should've acted like Flash did? that's ridiculous.
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On March 17 2009 06:36 latent wrote:
I get a lot of advice and comments from my Korean friend, who's very skilled with Protoss. This is a guy who almost scheduled a game against Canata (before he went pro), but changed his mind because he thought it wouldn't be challenging enough.
Let me try to be more specific. Take a look at Jon747's youtube video of the match. At exactly 20:00, Bisu moves out from his 8 o'clock expansion towards the center of the map. You see that wonderful little expansion right above his? At about 10 o'clock? That's the one he was supposed to secure before attempting an attack. Instead he pushed to the center and got flanked, losing all his units in the process.
3 minutes later, Bisu macros up another force large enough to send a probe to that expansion and put up a pylon, with the obvious intent of building a nexus there. Yet 30 seconds later he AGAIN sends his units out to the center of the map, where he's flanked A SECOND TIME, and loses his entire freaking army. As a result he can't secure the 10 o'clock expansion.
By the time Bisu has macroed up a large enough army FOR THE THIRD TIME to take that expansion, heojja does his doom drop. Bisu has to abandon his warping in nexus to go fend off the doom drop, but he sends all his units THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE MAP. Naturally they get annihilated. Yes it would have taken time to go the other way, but he wouldn't have thrown away all his units.
Heojja had map control, but the difference between Bisu and Flash is that Flash will take every expansion he can and try to wear out his enemy. He'll harrass and harrass, and use his superior micro and macro to win the match. A PERFECT example of this is Flash vs. Hwasin in their most recent starleague matchup, where Flash came back from a 99.9% certain defeat to beat Hwasin, who became too complacent and tried to expand everywhere. In this match, Bisu was impatient, refusing to secure that 10 o'clock expansion and attacking the center twice in a row.
And Bisu never even bothered sending a DT to the 11 o'clock expansion where heojja eventually expanded, or anywhere else for that matter. DTs are huge in harrassing zergs and killing those initial drones to prevent or slow down the creation of expos. They're critical when the zerg has map control.
As for the corsairs, the sairs are used to patrol. Really there's only one place for heojja to drop, and that's where Bisu's forces ARE NOT STATIONED. That of course is his main. I remember a PvZ Bisu played where he spotted a zerg's doom drop and corsaired the heck out of the overlords. It was in a recent Winners League match, possibly his 2nd all-kill.
And just one more thing zulu. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't try to personally attack me or my posts. Saying my posts 'are always wrong' or questioning whether I've even looked at the map before... that's going into unnecessary flame war territory. So please stay civil.
Don't you mean the 9 o'clock position? The 10 o'clock is the one directly left of Hoejja's main.
Other than that, I don't know why you insist on using TvT matches as an example of how to play a PvZ. There's just no connection between the two. How do you compare the dynamic of TvT to PvZ? Harass and superior micro/macro sounds like what EVERY player does to win a game. How would a player win if they have inferior micro/macro and no harass? o_0 On top of that, Bisu WAS trying to harass constantly. Did you miss the part where his shuttle got hydra raped on its maiden voyage? Or the second shuttle that got 3 drones w/ a reaver but then the rest of the drones burrowed? Or the time he sent a DT up the right side and a hydra/spore were waiting for him? Or the many times in late game where he storm dropped with zeals? Just lol man.
And that wonderful little expo your talking about is impossible to secure without holding the middle. How exactly is he gonna keep 9 o'clock from getting flanked without control over the middle? Without that, the lane between 8 and 9 is compromised. AKA 9 o'clock expo can get raped from both sides. What's he supposed to do? "Secure" 9 by dropping cannons and then pat his army around the lane behind the base? I don't understand. He'd just be throwing away 1k minerals to ling rape if he took 9 and then went to the middle and lost. It's just dumb. If he can't even win as is, what makes you think dropping that much money on another expo and THEN going mid is gonna have a good outcome? This isn't even about Starcraft. This is something anyone with crude grasp of strategy can understand. Reaching for more eco when you don't have the positioning and don't have the defense is suicidal.
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first off hoejja had early burrow, second he had spores. dt=no go
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I think they both played really well, except Bisu probably should've anticipated the burrow trick, considering Hoejja started this game almost exactly the same way as the Anytime game.
On the flipside, Hoejja completely carelessly lost an overlord while doing the burrow trick, which probably set him back significantly (he had already sacrificed a lot just to get burrow + speedlings).
Edit: I think a lot of times, fans criticize progamers unfairly for certain things. Yes, Bisu lost a lot of his army multiple times trying to push out into the center, but he HAD to. You have to take risks when you're that far behind. Yeah, it may not look very cost effective in retrospect, but it's better trying than just sitting back and waiting for your money to run out.
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United States10774 Posts
On March 17 2009 02:03 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 16:08 OneOther wrote:On March 16 2009 14:55 FragKrag wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Zulu here. Bisu couldn't have done any better given his situation. actually, he made a mistake in bringing his army to the open instead of staying at his fourth expansion. a pretty critical mistake, actually. the game ended at that point although bisu was climbing his way back into it. i wouldn't say it was a critical mistake, i think it was the best move at the time. at this point i think bisu assumed hoejja had his 5th, and he was almost mined out everywhere but his 4th/min only. he needed to clear the center or he knew he'd just lose by starvation. of course it wasn't the optimal terrain but there was no other angle of attack. and that first fight was so close too, had bisu's reinforcement swarm of zealots and templars joined the fray maybe 15 seconds earlier, before hoejja's second wave, i think he would have taken a decisive lead in the battle, and maybe the game
it was a mistake nonetheless. bisu should have scouted for the fifth expansion, and after seeing that hoejja hasn't take it, amass even a larger army before moving out. nowadays pvz is all about that one huge attack with reavers and a lot of templars. there was no reason to move out at that timing.
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but still
i think bisu just got unlucky
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On March 17 2009 08:52 TheAZNChineseTiger wrote:
but still
i think bisu just got unlucky
no flash got unlucky!!
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
