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On March 16 2009 12:55 traced wrote:
the lings did a shitload of damage, they killed what like 8 probes, made bisu put down 2 (3?) cannons, and the killed a few zealots
the only chance bisu had was to cripple hoejja with harass, and though he killed a hatchery and a lot of drones and prevented mining for like a minute, it wasn't quite enough - that tells you how far behind he was
2 canceled cannons.
8 probes.
0 zealots.
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If you have watched any of the Starcraft classes at the University of Berkeley (videos are online...google 'em!), you'd understand how insanely important it is to keep all of your mining units and keep pumping probes nonstop early on. The loss of probes results in damage that grows exponentially as time goes on. It's quite fascinating stuff.
The worst thing is Bisu lost this match needlessly. He made so many careless mistakes it made me sick. If he had been playing Jaedong he would have been so much more careful, but instead he smugly looked down on Hoejja, not considering he might actually lose the match.
There were multiple times he moved out with his army to attack instead of securing another expansion, and consequently lost *all* his units to a flank or just an endless stream of enemy units. Late game his unit mix was bad (no archons and only a few zealots, mostly hts and dragoons), and he lost his shuttle and reaver carelessly multiple times. That right there was huge. He flew his shuttle and reaver straight over a bunch of hydras. It was amateurish to assume Hoejja wouldn't try to find his shuttle.
Another terrible mistake was that he never used dts to shut down hoejja's attempts to create expansions. Bisu's a master of multitasking, but he just didn't plan well enough.
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On March 16 2009 00:23 kemoryan wrote:
I still don't understand why they sent Bisu first. That just gives them the chance to practice a specific map and substantially increasing the odds of sniping him.
To be fair, the last time they tried it (in the must-win final match of the regular WL round) Bisu all-killed, so you have to consider that result in the planning. Granted KTF's a tougher proposition than WeMade, the idea of having fantasy, BeSt, and Canata(?) to clean up if/when Bisu falls makes a lot of sense.
Throw in the fact that they probably expected Lux to show before Flash, SK was probably expecting fantasy/Bisu > Luxury. Which leaves everything set up to have Best clean up Flash if necessary. Yes Best has been slumping a bit but on the average day I'd take his PvT over Bisu's.
Only reason this didn't work was KTF also went against traditional wisdom of saving the best player for last, and sent Flash in before Lux - probably hoping to knock fantasy out so Lux wouldn't have to play him again.
Of course, all this is a bunch of guesswork, but it's not like the decision is indefensible.
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On March 16 2009 13:28 latent wrote:
If you have watched any of the Starcraft classes at the University of Berkeley (videos are online...google 'em!), you'd understand how insanely important it is to keep all of your mining units and keep pumping probes nonstop early on. The loss of probes results in damage that grows exponentially as time goes on. It's quite fascinating stuff.
Yes very fascinating, as fascinating as common sense obtained by actually playing a game of starcraft.
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Hoejja's play after the ling sneak wasn't spectacular, and if he'd played sharper he could have ended the game much sooner. Even so, the advantage was his throughout and he never played badly enough to lose it. To claim that Bisu wasn't set back horribly by those lings is just wrong. It forced him to go reaver/sair without having any kind of ground presence; as a result Hoejja could focus on handling the harass without worrying that Bisu would take map control. Bisu could only deal superficial damage to Hoejja's economy, and as a result Hoejja's army was always large enough to eat eight or ten psi storms and clean up whatever ball Bisu had massed up. Bisu could take expansions but much slower than he would have been able to normally, and he couldn't threaten Hoejja's expansions in any significant sense. His harass became less and less cost-effective as the game went on. The lateness of his third gas ensured he would never be able to afford enough dragoons to break Hoejja's lurkers as well as enough templar to kill everything else. The game was effectively over when Hoejja sniped Bisu's first shuttle with the reaver in it. He sniped it because he knew it was coming, and he knew it was coming because he knew Bisu had no other leverage with which he could get back into the game.
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And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first?
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On March 16 2009 13:08 cunninglinguists wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 12:55 traced wrote:
the lings did a shitload of damage, they killed what like 8 probes, made bisu put down 2 (3?) cannons, and the killed a few zealots
the only chance bisu had was to cripple hoejja with harass, and though he killed a hatchery and a lot of drones and prevented mining for like a minute, it wasn't quite enough - that tells you how far behind he was 2 canceled cannons. 8 probes. 0 zealots.
Actually the best thing the lings did was to delay the tech. Instead of going for his cyber bisu had to put down 2 cannons and he barely mined any gas until those lings are dead.
And yes, those 7-9 probes did make it really hard to comeback. But since he's Bisu he dragged then game to mid-late but it was over. Hoejja played really good this one, and Bisu was a little overconfident and didn't seem to even consider a ling push like that, as he scouted Hoejja while mainyarding probes.
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Yeah, I agree with Zulu here. Bisu couldn't have done any better given his situation.
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On March 16 2009 13:28 latent wrote:
If you have played any Starcraft matches on the Iccup (google it!), you'd understand how insanely important it is to keep all of your mining units and keep pumping probes nonstop early on. The loss of probes results in damage that grows exponentially as time goes on. It's common sense.
fixed.
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United States10774 Posts
On March 16 2009 14:55 FragKrag wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Zulu here. Bisu couldn't have done any better given his situation.
actually, he made a mistake in bringing his army to the open instead of staying at his fourth expansion. a pretty critical mistake, actually. the game ended at that point although bisu was climbing his way back into it.
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On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first?
There's a huge difference between Bisu and Flash (I'm saying this as a Bisu fan). Flash has said before that if his opponent gets the lead, he will always drag out the game as long as possible. He'll take up half the map and defend it like crazy, making the game go as long as possible until his opponent makes a mistake and he can take advantage.
But Bisu has *always* had an "I want to finish this as quickly as possible and go home" attitude. He could have easily dragged out the game longer by attempting to secure expansions instead of randomly attacking with the protoss ball. Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past.
BTW, you need archons and zealots to deal with the masses of lings and protect the dragoons and HTs. They do the gruntwork and take tons of damage. The HTs should focus their limited number of storms on hydras and lurkers, not on lings.
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On March 16 2009 16:33 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first? There's a huge difference between Bisu and Flash (I'm saying this as a Bisu fan). Flash has said before that if his opponent gets the lead, he will always drag out the game as long as possible. He'll take up half the map and defend it like crazy, making the game go as long as possible until his opponent makes a mistake and he can take advantage. But Bisu has *always* had an "I want to finish this as quickly as possible and go home" attitude. He could have easily dragged out the game longer by attempting to secure expansions instead of randomly attacking with the protoss ball. Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past. BTW, you need archons and zealots to deal with the masses of lings and protect the dragoons and HTs. They do the gruntwork and take tons of damage. The HTs should focus their limited number of storms on hydras and lurkers, not on lings.
Yep. Hoejja read Bisu like a book in this regard. Did you see Hoejja's strategy once the harass died down?
--Keep an army in reserve
--Macro
--Pincer Bisu between lurks and hydraling whenever he left his 4th
--Macro
--Expo/profit
I mean, Bisu's armies died in the same place three times, and each time, the new army was more expensive than the last one...
Just like Flash and his 14cc--so stubborn... 
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On March 16 2009 16:33 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first? There's a huge difference between Bisu and Flash (I'm saying this as a Bisu fan). Flash has said before that if his opponent gets the lead, he will always drag out the game as long as possible. He'll take up half the map and defend it like crazy, making the game go as long as possible until his opponent makes a mistake and he can take advantage. But Bisu has *always* had an "I want to finish this as quickly as possible and go home" attitude. He could have easily dragged out the game longer by attempting to secure expansions instead of randomly attacking with the protoss ball. Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past. BTW, you need archons and zealots to deal with the masses of lings and protect the dragoons and HTs. They do the gruntwork and take tons of damage. The HTs should focus their limited number of storms on hydras and lurkers, not on lings.
Look dude I don't want to be mean but you have no idea what went on in that game. Bisu and Hoejja both had 4 bases, the only place for Bisu to expand was either at 9 o'clock or 4 o'clock. He couldn't get out of his natural because of the lurker formation so that eliminates 4. The most urgent task he had was to clear his front so he could maintain map control and eventually expand to 4, which he tried to do two times but failed. He didn't "try to finish the game asap." There was no mistake of hubris or mental lapse. He wasn't "randomly attacking". Do you know what Destination looks like? It was literally the only spot on the entire map he could do battle at.
He dragged the game long enough for the game to be even, at the time of his first attack Hoejja had no hive and Bisu was almost maxed out, under most circumstances he should've won the battle. There was no point in not attacking because Hoejja could just keep expanding. It's meaningless to say he should've kept on expanding because there was nowhere for him to expand without fighting first.
As for the army makeup, you are in no position to judge. Bisu had the perfect mix. The only time when protoss should morph full energy templars into archons is when zerg has a pure crackling or pure crackling/ultra army. Against a mix of lurker/ling/hydra, protoss will need as much aoe damage as possible, hence the templars and reavers. Bisu did have zealots, it's retarded to say he should've had more, because it shouldn't be a conscious choice unless again, the zerg army is made up of mostly of lings, then an archon/zealot army would be the best. His priority was to spend all of his gas. Zealots die very quickly to lurkers, they can't serve as shields vs that kind of zerg army.
Finally there is no rule that dictates where HTs should storm. You storm where you can kill the most shit, whether it be lings or hydras or lurkers. Please stop using your theorycrafting nonsense to judge progamers, and worse, please don't be so confident when doing so. I assume you probably have played less than 100 pvzs in your lifetime, which would give you no experience whatsoever to judge a progamer let alone Bisu's play. Here is the best advice I can give you, theorycrafting is the anti-starcraft, starcraft is learned by playing, not learned by reasoning.
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On March 17 2009 01:11 t_co wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 16:33 latent wrote:On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
And no bisu did not make any mistakes you berkeley students can find. 99% of his actions were the best possible actions at that point of the game. His unit mix was perfect, why the fuck would you morph archons and build zealots vs lurker/hydra/ling? Also did you know that in order to secure an expansion, you have would actually have to move your army and a probe there first? There's a huge difference between Bisu and Flash (I'm saying this as a Bisu fan). Flash has said before that if his opponent gets the lead, he will always drag out the game as long as possible. He'll take up half the map and defend it like crazy, making the game go as long as possible until his opponent makes a mistake and he can take advantage. But Bisu has *always* had an "I want to finish this as quickly as possible and go home" attitude. He could have easily dragged out the game longer by attempting to secure expansions instead of randomly attacking with the protoss ball. Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past. BTW, you need archons and zealots to deal with the masses of lings and protect the dragoons and HTs. They do the gruntwork and take tons of damage. The HTs should focus their limited number of storms on hydras and lurkers, not on lings. Yep. Hoejja read Bisu like a book in this regard. Did you see Hoejja's strategy once the harass died down? --Keep an army in reserve --Macro --Pincer Bisu between lurks and hydraling whenever he left his 4th --Macro --Expo/profit I mean, Bisu's armies died in the same place three times, and each time, the new army was more expensive than the last one... Just like Flash and his 14cc--so stubborn...
You're welcome to write a letter to Bisu to recommend him a better place to fight next time.
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On March 16 2009 16:33 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 13:55 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Even when the doom drop occurred he attacked the center of the map, rather than bringing his units back the other way. As a result he lost his *entire* remaining army and just gg'd. And let's not forget the reason the doom drop was possible was because Bisu just threw away his corsairs in the mid-game, a move that has caused him to lose in the past.
Have you ever played on destination in your life? Can you see that by the time Bisu brings his army back to his base, his base would already be empty? He would've lost his entire army which was full of plague, no matter what he did, the game was already lost then. The time between Bisu losing a few of his sairs and when the doom drop came was about 20 minutes, I have no idea how you can derive a cause and effect relationship between the two events. The drop could've been executed if Bisu had 300 sairs, as long as they weren't patrolling that one small area. Losing his sairs had pretty much no direct effect on Bisu losing the game.
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On March 16 2009 16:08 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2009 14:55 FragKrag wrote:
Yeah, I agree with Zulu here. Bisu couldn't have done any better given his situation. actually, he made a mistake in bringing his army to the open instead of staying at his fourth expansion. a pretty critical mistake, actually. the game ended at that point although bisu was climbing his way back into it.
i wouldn't say it was a critical mistake, i think it was the best move at the time.
at this point i think bisu assumed hoejja had his 5th, and he was almost mined out everywhere but his 4th/min only. he needed to clear the center or he knew he'd just lose by starvation. of course it wasn't the optimal terrain but there was no other angle of attack.
and that first fight was so close too, had bisu's reinforcement swarm of zealots and templars joined the fray maybe 15 seconds earlier, before hoejja's second wave, i think he would have taken a decisive lead in the battle, and maybe the game
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Who knew the only thing standing between Bisu and a Winner's League championship was a pass/fail Berkeley Starcraft seminar.
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It' so silly that this guy who attended a class taught by an american thinks he now knows more than koreans that play the game for 10 hours a day and making a living doing it.
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EPT
