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On January 14 2009 07:56 dongfeng wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? can do "almost" anything not anything and it was a combination of both significant map imbalance and bisu's phenomenal play, flash defended superbly against bisus dual shuttle play
Today I watched the vsP matches of Flash on medusa:
first I watched the bisu ones.. good, close games
then watched rock#1 omg he is bad.
rock#2 it was similar tactic to bisu's but pathetic.. he tried to bulldog while flash was taking his 3rd base but he led his shuttle into two turrets right away. this caused physical pain and open wounds on my face.
then shangho and his fast carriers.. lol just lol. This game is the biggest rape ever. Basically, Flash lost about 5 units in a 20 minutes long match.
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On January 14 2009 07:56 dongfeng wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? can do "almost" anything not anything and it was a combination of both significant map imbalance and bisu's phenomenal play, flash defended superbly against bisus dual shuttle play
Apparently "almost anything" is defined as "Something that isn't 1.) vulnerable to Bunker Rush, 2.) 2base Carriers, 3.) DT opening, 4.) 1gate robo reaver, 5.) 1gate fast expo into bulldog (rock), or 6.) mostly standard play". Okay, I got it.
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So just 2 gate proxy in the middle. Wait...
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I've never played on Medusa, but just by watching the games, it looks like the "imbalance" in PvT is mainly that since it's a 3-player map, if it goes into later game, it's the P will probably take the last expo location if both have turtled.
As a P player, I don't mind that
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On January 14 2009 08:16 traced wrote:
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ktf willingly sent flash out on medusa. they must have felt comfortable with the disadvantages of the map.
who knows what the fuck will happen if they meet again on a different map, but from their last 4 games it's pretty clear that bisu is just playing the matchup better right now.
YES
Flash obviously thought he could win against a P as the opponent would probably send out.
Bisu came out, either with a strategy flash hadn't seen in practice, or just played better than anything flash had seen, but make no mistake flash or ktf or someone was sure he could win on this map
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Disclaimer: I ACTUALLY BELIEVE BISU IS PLAYING BETTER STARCRAFT THAN FLASH RIGHT NOW.
So please stop cheaply avoiding reasonable arguments by saying that people complain about Medusa just because they are Flash fanboys, ok? It makes everybody in this thread look dumber than he really is.
On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Show nested quote +Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Show nested quote +Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win?
Sentenal, this kind of assholish arguing isn't helping anybody. It's quite clear that he meant "anything" in sence "anything reasonable". Do you really need to spell out that it doesn't include things like rushing with your initial 4 probes and such? The fact that totally inferior players like Rock or Sangho lost to Flash (one of the best Terran ever) doesn't imply a shit about balance. Nor does the fact that skilled player lost to unscouted well played cheese. You should look at games played between players of similar level which didn't end in first 5 minutes.
Please, could anybody react at the Kal - Mind and Leta - BestGod series and still act like Medusa is a balanced map?
Or could ANYBODY from Medusa-supporters give any reasonable arguments why Medusa isn't imba? Aside from "ur just flash fanboy so ur bitching about his lost lol".
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On January 14 2009 12:07 adelarge wrote:Disclaimer: I ACTUALLY BELIEVE BISU IS PLAYING BETTER STARCRAFT THAN FLASH RIGHT NOW. So please stop cheaply avoiding reasonable arguments by saying that people complain about Medusa just because they are Flash fanboys, ok? It makes everybody in this thread look dumber than he really is. Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? Sentenal, this kind of assholish arguing isn't helping anybody. It's quite clear that he meant "anything" in sence "anything reasonable". Do you really need to spell out that it doesn't include things like rushing with your initial 4 probes and such? The fact that totally inferior players like Rock or Sangho lost to Flash (one of the best Terran ever) doesn't imply a shit about balance. Nor does the fact that skilled player lost to unscouted well played cheese. You should look at games played between players of similar level which didn't end in first 5 minutes. Please, could anybody react at the Kal - Mind and Leta - BestGod series and still act like Medusa is a balanced map? Or could ANYBODY from Medusa-supporters give any reasonable arguments why Medusa isn't imba? Aside from "ur just flash fanboy so ur bitching about his lost lol".
So apparently, he can exaggerate something to the extreme to prove his point, but I can't exaggerate it to the opposite extreme to disprove it?
The map is imbalanced, but it isn't so imbalanced that a Protoss player can do almost anything and still win. Probe rushing is a whole lot different than something like a DT rush or 2base carriers. If he wanted to say that if the Protoss plays standard, he has a great chance to win the game, that is one thing, but to say a Protoss could pull shit out of their ass and still win is something entirely different.
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On January 14 2009 12:15 Sentenal wrote:
So apparently, he can exaggerate something to the extreme to prove his point, but I can't exaggerate it to the opposite extreme to disprove it?
The map is imbalanced, but it isn't so imbalanced that a Protoss player can do almost anything and still win. Probe rushing is a whole lot different than something like a DT rush or 2base carriers. If he wanted to say that if the Protoss plays standard, he has a great chance to win the game, that is one thing, but to say a Protoss could pull shit out of their ass and still win is something entirely different.
Fine then. It looked to me that you took just one small thing from his long post and try to disregard it as a whole, despite there were imho some really good arguments.
On January 14 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 08:16 traced wrote:
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ktf willingly sent flash out on medusa. they must have felt comfortable with the disadvantages of the map.
who knows what the fuck will happen if they meet again on a different map, but from their last 4 games it's pretty clear that bisu is just playing the matchup better right now. YES Flash obviously thought he could win against a P as the opponent would probably send out. Bisu came out, either with a strategy flash hadn't seen in practice, or just played better than anything flash had seen, but make no mistake flash or ktf or someone was sure he could win on this map
Flash had to play in OSL, GOM and Proleague in recent days. Medusa is the only map which is in all three leagues. He clearly has to practice on it a lot, being it imbalanced or not. Maybe KTF coach think it would be enough (it wouldn't be his first questionable decision)...
On a side note - does anybody know who are Flash toss practice partners now? It would be very easy to see why were in KTF confident in his play on Medusa if he plays only Lucifer and like :/.
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EPT
