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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/banner/SPL_080930.png) Thanks to Pachi for the banner.
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GRUDGE MATCH WOO Scaramanga Vs  KianteAfter a few battle reports from kiante I felt I needed to defend my honour. So i decided to challenge him to a bo9 all matchups grudge match to prove once and for all who is better. rvr shout on fs to start things off, loser picks next map and matchup + Show Spoiler [Results] +Replays can be found [url blocked]. Beware games are full of cheese.
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Flash vs. Bisu. Oh wow, what a game!
Edit:
Gametimes based on timezones:
18:30 KST
01:30 PST
02:30 MST
03:30 CST
04:30 EST
09:30 GMT
10:30 CET
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
Maybe we will win an unimportant game against KTF for once instead of almost only winning the ones that matter (as in finals) :p
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Sweden33719 Posts
.. I'm not sure KTF could have asked for a better line-up :D I'm not sure we could have either.
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cmon SKT1... this is a big match seriously havent seen lucifer in a long-ass time.
flash this is time for revenge. u always seem to win on imbalanced PvT maps like this. do it!!!
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Haran > Best
Flash > Bisu
Lucifer > Thezerg
Luxury > Fantasy
Flash > SKT1
... yea
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Why does everyone expect FlaSh to beat Bisu? :o
My predictions:
Best > Haran
Bisu > FlaSh
TheZerg > Lucifer
SKT T1 win 3-0!
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Yeah, SKT should clean this up 3-0 or 3-1.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I don't care if SKT wins, but Bisu must die after ruining what could've been the best MSL evarrr.
On January 12 2009 01:39 jello_biafra wrote:
Why does everyone expect FlaSh to beat Bisu? :o
Bisu may have won Gom, but Flash has the advantage on maps where terran is at a disadvantage (not to mention the game won was on medusa).
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness.
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9070 Posts
SKT 3-0 with ez and btw SKT's tosses are 82% this season
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Hmm...
Haran < Best
Flash > Bisu
Lucifer > TheZerg
Luxury > Fantasy
3-1 KTF
Or, if Bisu > Flash;
Flash < Bisu again in the ace match.
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Haran > Best (OOOOH YEAH)
Flash < Bisu
Lucifer > TheZerg
Luxury < Fantasy
Flash < Bisu
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 Haran < BeSt[HyO]
Wait...why is there a question about this? A dragon vs a no-name? should be a nobrainer
Flash < Bisu
This will be the game of THE NIGHT. A flash vs bisu re-match of the GOM ro3. Bisu took that series so im going with the king toss. But Flash is Flash..sooo this is a toss up :D
LuCifer > Thezerg
Thezerg has been such a dissapointment...He fucked my fantasy team up..So im going with Lucifer... :D :D :D
Luxury < fantasy
Ugh...A slumping Lux vs a somewhat in-shape Fantasy.... poor lux...i used to like him..im going to give this to Fantasy
SKT 3- KTF 1
In case of ACE..KTF will put out the secret weapon..FLash..DUH..
Collesium II is a crazy macro map...soooo I'm predicting BeST for the SKT ace
in which case..I think BeST will defeat Flash in a crazy macro battle. or flash could cheese..one can dream
Flash < BeSt[HyO]
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... Everyone thinking Lucipher will beat TheZerg must take some kitchken shears and chop off their faces.
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The SKT1 Coach should make line ups randomly. He should literally take Best, Bisu, a Terran and a Zerg and roll a dice to decide what map they're going play. He gets the worst matchups every single time, it's ridiculous.
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On January 12 2009 04:39 SuperJongMan wrote:
... Everyone thinking Lucipher will beat TheZerg must take some kitchken shears and chop off their faces.
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not a chanceeeeeeeeeee
MONEY THAT THEZERG CHOKES
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Thezerg is going to fucking destroy lucifer.
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fuckthisshit
LUCIFER FOR BONJWA
YOU HEARD IT HERE FOLKS.....
pft..yeah right
:D :D :D :D
anyways.
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If it goes to ace match SKT1 will send most likely BeSt. Colosseum II is favouring protoss (look at the number of mirror match-ups and not only on the PvT stats) so Flash (sure choice of KTF for ace) might be in trouble given that BeSt is great in PvT even without help of a map.
But damn, I am excited about that match :D Does anybody knows if it is on MBC or OGN?
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Best
Flash
Lucifer
fantasy
ACE: Flash > Hyuk
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Lucifer...I fucking hate your guts you made me look like an idiot after I sung your praises with that 9game win streak, I was like big 3 Bisu, Stork, luCifer; luCifer aka. the protoss flash. And then you globbled le Cock, stay dead. (But secretly please beat thezerg, I hate him the most).
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Best
Bisu
TheZerg
oh and
On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler +
He actually really had a fever...
so your picture basicaly fails to deliver..
->
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United States12607 Posts
BeSt vs. Zerg? Again? T___T
owait, it's Haran. BeSt has this easily.
This lineup is insanely good for KTF, though. Let's hope Bisu can own Flash yet again.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-? 
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 12 2009 06:11 jwd241224 wrote:
BeSt vs. Zerg? Again? T___T
owait, it's Haran. BeSt has this easily.
This lineup is insanely good for KTF, though. Let's hope Bisu can own Flash yet again. did you drop your faith when you failed at killing me in tl vs sc2gg 2v2 showmatch?
3-0 ez!!
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On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. ->
right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 06:13 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:11 jwd241224 wrote:
BeSt vs. Zerg? Again? T___T
owait, it's Haran. BeSt has this easily.
This lineup is insanely good for KTF, though. Let's hope Bisu can own Flash yet again. did you drop your faith when you failed at killing me in tl vs sc2gg 2v2 showmatch? 3-0 ez!!
NEVER! I'm just a little worried after watching BeSt's games vs. sKyHigh and Saint, he played like garbage in all of them. I'm sure he can recover though...OSL season is approaching, and that means BeSt is heating up.
Do Jaewook fighting~
And also, LuCifer's PvZ sucks. Bad. Thezerg should have that set easily.
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On January 12 2009 06:12 Carnac wrote:Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-?
On January 12 2009 06:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. -> right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though
During the live report thread, someone from SK mentioned that the commentators said what MrHoon/Samurai- said.
Not saying it's true or false, but we do have a source.
And wow you guys are really cynical.
Here's the post:
On January 04 2009 20:29 tracer wrote:
The commentators just said that Flash is sick with a fever and didn't take medicine because he thought it would mess with his mental condition.. weird.
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dude of COURSE haran will win, but other than that, i'm pretty sure itll be skt 3-1, i love best, but i love haran that much more.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 12 2009 06:23 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:12 Carnac wrote:Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-? Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. -> right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though During the live report thread, someone from SK mentioned that the commentators said what MrHoon/Samurai- said. Not saying it's true or false, but we do have a source. And wow you guys are really cynical. Here's the post: Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 20:29 tracer wrote:
The commentators just said that Flash is sick with a fever and didn't take medicine because he thought it would mess with his mental condition.. weird.
I't was an obvious joke, lighten up
also that post is a week old, he should be fine by now.
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United States20661 Posts
Shinmugi's going to own it up. If he can take Bisu that far on Protoss maps while sick... goddamn, but Bisu's fucked.
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On January 12 2009 06:36 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:23 Cambium wrote:On January 12 2009 06:12 Carnac wrote:Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-? On January 12 2009 06:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. -> right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though During the live report thread, someone from SK mentioned that the commentators said what MrHoon/Samurai- said. Not saying it's true or false, but we do have a source. And wow you guys are really cynical. Here's the post: On January 04 2009 20:29 tracer wrote:
The commentators just said that Flash is sick with a fever and didn't take medicine because he thought it would mess with his mental condition.. weird.
I't was an obvious joke, lighten up also that post is a week old, he should be fine by now.
 P
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On January 12 2009 06:44 Last Romantic wrote:
Shinmugi's going to own it up. If he can take Bisu that far on Protoss maps while sick... goddamn, but Bisu's fucked.
Happy BDay LR 
I'm pretty sure most ppl agree that bisu's pvt is his worst MU (excellent but not amazing like his others)
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On January 12 2009 06:36 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:23 Cambium wrote:On January 12 2009 06:12 Carnac wrote:Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-? On January 12 2009 06:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. -> right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though During the live report thread, someone from SK mentioned that the commentators said what MrHoon/Samurai- said. Not saying it's true or false, but we do have a source. And wow you guys are really cynical. Here's the post: On January 04 2009 20:29 tracer wrote:
The commentators just said that Flash is sick with a fever and didn't take medicine because he thought it would mess with his mental condition.. weird.
I't was an obvious joke, lighten up also that post is a week old, he should be fine by now.
Jeah, afterall, we are all one big happy family 
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Haran KILL Best ok, become my 2nd or 3rd favorite Zerg
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It's on fucking medusa, bisu will win.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 07:41 YEAHHHH BOIIII wrote:
Haran KILL Best ok, become my 2nd or 3rd favorite Zerg
Wow, what a prize! I'm sure your post will give Haran the motivation he needs.
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go go go KTF, last season you give 2 beatings to SKT
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On January 12 2009 08:00 SayTT wrote:
It's on fucking medusa, bisu will win.
FlaSh wins more games on P>T maps than T<P maps. He went like undefeated on Katrina a few seasons ago.
Flash wins ez
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 08:23 Phradamon wrote:go go go KTF, last season you Flash give 2 beatings to SKT
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On January 12 2009 08:00 SayTT wrote:
It's on fucking medusa, bisu will win.
Flash is favourite of this game. He is 6:0 on Medusa :O And he is 2:0 against Bisu on Medusa :O But of course anything can happen. Bisu is definitely in a top form and is capable of taking it.
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Why would they ever send Luxury out on ace match, when skt1 has bisu and best on their team. Flash is the only choice.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Seriously; SKT should win this with no problems whatsoever. Even in the off chance that Bisu loses to Flash, Luxury isn't beating Fantasy on a 68% T>Z map
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On January 12 2009 08:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote:FlaSh wins more games on P>T maps than T<P maps. He went like undefeated on Katrina a few seasons ago. Flash wins ez
Actually P>T = T<P...
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I hope Flash gets sex nuts and retard strong all over Bisu and rapes him.
Aside from that, go SKT!
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/TBITB/bisu.jpg)
>
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Someone is going to cheese in Bisu vs Flash
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On January 12 2009 10:46 Rostam wrote:
Someone is going to cheese in Bisu vs Flash
Bunker over top of Bisu's main? Yeah??
Why does everyone expect fantasy to win over Lux? Lux ain't half bad.
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wow this thread was created pretty early
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When does the game start? I'm watching "http://75.126.18.2/index.php?p=ogn - Open in IE, thanks corinthos (OGN)" atm and it's a TvT.
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On January 12 2009 10:55 Solinren wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 10:46 Rostam wrote:
Someone is going to cheese in Bisu vs Flash Bunker over top of Bisu's main? Yeah?? Why does everyone expect fantasy to win over Lux? Lux ain't half bad.
Because Lux has been full of epic fail these past few months dropping most of his proleauge games, honestly either haran or lucifer will win, flash will beat bisu and it'll go to ace
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I have a feeling somehow it will end up in Ace match.
Best, Bisu and Fantasy ftw!
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My preds:
Haran < Best
Flash > Bisu
Lucifer < TheZerg
Luxury < Fantasy
SKT Wins 3:1
Flash vs. Bisu definitely as everyone said, game of the night. Flash is up 9-5 on Bisu overall, and he also sits powerfully at 8-2 (6-0 vs. P, 2-0 v Bisu) on the 67% toss favored Medusa. Hoping for an incredible match, and hoping Flash can avenge that previous 1:2 defeat.
Also, very nice to see a proleague match with not a single mirror involved-
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Oh My God. I didn't realized that Flash is going to rematch Bisu. Oh shit. I hope he rapes him-- not that he is the type to get revenge.
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Am i the only one who sees Lucifer's picture and imagine's ra's expression on it?
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On January 12 2009 11:51 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Am i the only one who sees Lucifer's picture and imagine's ra's expression on it?
haha your not alone
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 12 2009 07:00 Samurai- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:36 Carnac wrote:On January 12 2009 06:23 Cambium wrote:On January 12 2009 06:12 Carnac wrote:Did you go and measure his temperature: Samurai-? On January 12 2009 06:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On January 12 2009 06:10 Samurai- wrote:On January 12 2009 06:08 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Best Bisu TheZerg oh and On January 12 2009 01:48 MrHoon wrote:
And on our defense, Flash had a fever and didn't take his medication to prevent drowsiness. + Show Spoiler + He actually really had a fever... so your picture basicaly fails to deliver.. -> right i forgot you know flash and were in seoul the other day, therefore you know better, mr-i-carry-a-Terran/KTF-logo. Thank you for your input though During the live report thread, someone from SK mentioned that the commentators said what MrHoon/Samurai- said. Not saying it's true or false, but we do have a source. And wow you guys are really cynical. Here's the post: On January 04 2009 20:29 tracer wrote:
The commentators just said that Flash is sick with a fever and didn't take medicine because he thought it would mess with his mental condition.. weird.
I't was an obvious joke, lighten up also that post is a week old, he should be fine by now. Jeah, afterall, we are all one big happy family
DID U NO FLASH IS THE BEST TERRAN EVARRR?!??!?!?!?!??!?!??!?!?! YE EVEN BOXER SAID HE WAS DA BEST TERRAN EVARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
On a serious note, it is a tossup. Both players had enough time to practice. Im hoping for a good game lol.
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+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=?
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On January 12 2009 12:54 checo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=?
do wht?
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mmm, i am excited about Lucifer's return and he will play!
Time to see the Lee Young Ho's kick ass
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 11:09 SearingShadow wrote:
When does the game start? I'm watching "http://75.126.18.2/index.php?p=ogn - Open in IE, thanks corinthos (OGN)" atm and it's a TvT.
Check the calendar for all upcoming matches/events. It's at the top right of this page. You'll also notice that the second item in its "Upcoming events" list is [PL] KTF vs SKT.
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On January 12 2009 13:15 sung_moon wrote:do wht?
lose?
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United States10774 Posts
Wow, what a great match. I am not sure who will win, I really think it can go either way.
Predictions:
Haran < BeSt
Flash > Bisu
LuCifer > Thezerg
Luxury < Fantasy
Flash > BeSt
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On January 12 2009 13:20 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 13:15 sung_moon wrote:On January 12 2009 12:54 checo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=? do wht? lose?
+ Show Spoiler +he went to the cabine of the other player and make a sigal with his gand like roman emperor saying die XD
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
I think we need a new pic for Lucifer.
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On January 12 2009 13:28 checo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 13:20 redtooth wrote:On January 12 2009 13:15 sung_moon wrote:On January 12 2009 12:54 checo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=? do wht? lose? + Show Spoiler +he went to the cabine of the other player and make a sigal with his gand like roman emperor saying die XD
I dont know why this is in a spoiler and i think your refering to besting thumbs downing go.go in ace, its because no one likes go.go because hes bm
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SKT1 is taking this, it will probably be very close though
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
fun fact: Excluding Event matches, SKT has not beaten KTF for 841 days, and is currently on a 7 losing streak against KTF.
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51449 Posts
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51449 Posts
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On January 12 2009 14:32 MrHoon wrote:
fun fact: Excluding Event matches, SKT has not beaten KTF for 841 days, and is currently on a 7 losing streak against KTF.
Funner fact. YOUR GONNA EAT YOUR FACE TONIGHT.
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So glad to see Haran back in the lineup. He's the best 4th they have, I don't know why he's played so little.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 12 2009 14:42 SuperJongMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 14:32 MrHoon wrote:
fun fact: Excluding Event matches, SKT has not beaten KTF for 841 days, and is currently on a 7 losing streak against KTF. Funner fact. YOUR GONNA EAT YOUR FACE TONIGHT.
OH NO U DI-INT GIRL
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Okay this time SKT T1, please save me the rage and send a protoss in the ACE match please.
Anyway, I think flash will beat Bisu. Flash is so scary sometimes >.>.
On January 12 2009 14:45 lgdDante wrote:
So glad to see Haran back in the lineup. He's the best 4th they have, I don't know why he's played so little.
True, I was seeing this guy back when he first started playing and honestly, I knew this guy had some potential. The last guy's that I saw play and I instantly liked and thought had potential as well, turned out to be BeSt =).
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i am not gonna lie i think skt will have this but i am literally fucking praying to god i will be wrong.
GO KTF
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Bisu will crush Flash and go out for a new journey to his elo peak :o
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Predicting:
Best > Haran - It may be Best's weakes mu, but Haran isn't Effort level.
Bisu < Flash - Medusa is a good map for turtle terran as Flash showed in Gom. If Bisu can exploit the 120 vs 200 timing better that appeared in their last meeting, maybe he can win.
Thezerg < Lucifer - I don't know. I've never seen thezerg ZvP but Protoss' have been doing so well.
Fantasy > Luxury - I hate mech but I'm pretty sure its coming.
BeSt > Flash - Matchup of Unreal Macro
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Flash vs. Bisu should be epic, and even though Medusa favors PvT, IMO it suits Flash's style very well. Both of them have very good records on the map, but Flash is 2-0 Bisu on it.
Luxury should take out Fantasy. His build is so expected by now it would surprising if he didn't go mech on destination.
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Damn! im worried abt Bisu. He even failed to qualify for the Batoo OSL. Lost to by.hero on medusa. But nonetheless, go Bisu!!!!
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my predictions (for some reason, my predictions for ktf vs skt r nearly 100% right but im hoping im wrong this time :p)
Best>Haran - best clearly is the favorite but i am not gonna lie, despite haran's record, i believe he still has solid play. dont doubt him. i wouldnt be surprised if haran won, but best is the greater chance in winning
Bisu>Flash - flash has been literally raping all the non S-class gamers, but i still think he will lose to bisu. i get that feeling bisu's arbiters will crush flash.
Thezerg>Lucifer - ok, during lucifer's beast win streak, i thought with his clever and unique style of playing (mass dark templar on katrina made me crap my pants) he would be the knew nal_ra. i was wrong after his win streak was followed by a ridiculous losing streak. i give the zerg the upper hand, mainly because i havent seen lucifer play at all recently.
*if it goes to game 4 and 5
luxury<fantasty - i think luxury will fall to the mech build 
ACE:
flash >bisu - flash will win
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wow bisu is such an underdog according to the current predictions
these pretzels r making me thristtyyyy@@@@@!!@@@
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On January 12 2009 14:18 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 13:28 checo wrote:On January 12 2009 13:20 redtooth wrote:On January 12 2009 13:15 sung_moon wrote:On January 12 2009 12:54 checo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=? do wht? lose? + Show Spoiler +he went to the cabine of the other player and make a sigal with his gand like roman emperor saying die XD I dont know why this is in a spoiler and i think your refering to besting thumbs downing go.go in ace, its because no one likes go.go because hes bm
My mistake U,U sorry hehehe by the way bm?
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On January 12 2009 16:04 checo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 14:18 Scaramanga wrote:On January 12 2009 13:28 checo wrote:On January 12 2009 13:20 redtooth wrote:On January 12 2009 13:15 sung_moon wrote:On January 12 2009 12:54 checo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +can someone explain to me why did fantasy do that at the end of the Ace match=? do wht? lose? + Show Spoiler +he went to the cabine of the other player and make a sigal with his gand like roman emperor saying die XD I dont know why this is in a spoiler and i think your refering to besting thumbs downing go.go in ace, its because no one likes go.go because hes bm My mistake U,U sorry hehehe by the way bm?
Bad mannered
+1 wheee
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Given that KTFlash put Flash in the 4th spot (in other words Flash didn't play) in their last proleague match, is this the longest break between televised games Flash has had in a long time? More than a whole week if I'm not mistaken!
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United States12607 Posts
I'm staying up to watch BeSt beat Haran, someone in this thread please force me to go to sleep after the 1set! Must.....resist...Bisu vs. Flash...temptation...
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Finally, lux playing a ZvT.
i expect him to do well
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 17:29 ShloobeR wrote:
Finally, lux playing a ZvT.
i expect him to do well
Someone said it earlier in this thread, but there's just no way Lux is taking out Fantasy on such a mech-friendly map. Fantasy has been playing lights out TvZ lately (especially with mech), while Lux has been losing ZvTs left and right - sure, they've been to S-Class Terrans but...Fantasy is one such player.
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Russian Federation386 Posts
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On January 12 2009 16:31 darktreb wrote:
Given that KTFlash put Flash in the 4th spot (in other words Flash didn't play) in their last proleague match, is this the longest break between televised games Flash has had in a long time? More than a whole week if I'm not mistaken!
At least he's had time to eat, then.
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9070 Posts
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6 pages and the match hasn't even started. KTF vs SKT will always be special.
Take it home Bisu!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:03 Matoo- wrote:
6 pages and the match hasn't even started. KTF vs SKT will always be special.
Take it home Bisu!
thats how fun KTF vs SKT is!
I was worried KTF vs SKT would die out because most the rivalries were gone after the 4 KTF veterans left, but we have new ones coming our way
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I'm glad I took a nap earlier so I can stay up for Flash v. Bisu. fantasy v. Luxury might be good too.
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9070 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:10 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:03 Matoo- wrote:
6 pages and the match hasn't even started. KTF vs SKT will always be special.
Take it home Bisu! thats how fun KTF vs SKT is! I was worried KTF vs SKT would die out because most the rivalries were gone after the 4 KTF veterans left, but we have new ones coming our way
KTF is a one-man team today...nothing like the old days
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:19 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:10 MrHoon wrote:On January 12 2009 18:03 Matoo- wrote:
6 pages and the match hasn't even started. KTF vs SKT will always be special.
Take it home Bisu! thats how fun KTF vs SKT is! I was worried KTF vs SKT would die out because most the rivalries were gone after the 4 KTF veterans left, but we have new ones coming our way KTF is a one-man team today...nothing like the old days
never said it was, all I said was it is getting better -_-
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9070 Posts
its actually getting worse...you had better record in R1 of the current PL
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why does corinthos' stream suck?
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Apparently everyone is going to watch this rather than Woongjin vs OGN, there's not even a topic up for that match yet?
Not surprising given the matches, still funny though.
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9070 Posts
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<bisu> we who are about to loose, SALUTE YOU..
:O
on a serious note, we could have VLC for this great event
/me bows and points to Corinthos
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Yes... please please corinthos get us a vlc stream =((
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KTF vs. SKT T1 is one of the (if not THE) greatest team rivalry in pro-gaming. Even if all the vets left KTF, it is much more infinitely awesome than the stars vs. ogn game =).
As much as I love bisu, Flash is too good not to respect. That will be the game of the night.
Go go SKT T1.
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9070 Posts
MBC made the sickest intro ever, the song is so cool
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The corinthos stream that is linked (OGN) in this thread is showing the Woongjin vs Sparkyz game. Is KTF v SKT on MBC?
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Sorry OGN you know I love ya but I'm switching my team for the time being because I am not missing this
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On January 12 2009 18:32 VorcePA wrote:
The corinthos stream that is linked (OGN) in this thread is showing the Woongjin vs Sparkyz game. Is KTF v SKT on MBC?
By process of elimination, yes, it's on MBC.
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On January 12 2009 09:59 Plexa wrote:
Seriously; SKT should win this with no problems whatsoever. Even in the off chance that Bisu loses to Flash, Luxury isn't beating Fantasy on a 68% T>Z map
the off chance? lol
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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Tyvm, sir.
Maybe it's a bit odd but it's just Bisu vs Flash to me, not KTF vs SKT1.
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On January 12 2009 18:33 Lhyviathan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:32 VorcePA wrote:
The corinthos stream that is linked (OGN) in this thread is showing the Woongjin vs Sparkyz game. Is KTF v SKT on MBC? By process of elimination, yes, it's on MBC.
I don't have a fast internet connection and I have to do a lot of buffering to get these streams to work. =\
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Ok, I'm ready to eatch it. Have coke and some snack next to me Go KTF!!!
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On January 12 2009 18:29 disciple wrote:
bisu is weekly mvp btw
mvp cuuuuuuuurse, now way bisu is gonna win
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is tls irc channel not on gamesurge? #teamliquid is empty
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Why can't there 2 Lee Young Ho playing Terran? Make it more interesting. (and confusing)
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its quakenet, not gamesurge
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On January 12 2009 18:37 Azrael1111 wrote:
is tls irc channel not on gamesurge? #teamliquid is empty
Quakenet
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On January 12 2009 18:36 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:33 Lhyviathan wrote:On January 12 2009 18:32 VorcePA wrote:
The corinthos stream that is linked (OGN) in this thread is showing the Woongjin vs Sparkyz game. Is KTF v SKT on MBC? By process of elimination, yes, it's on MBC. I don't have a fast internet connection and I have to do a lot of buffering to get these streams to work. =\
Same here, mate. After about 80 seconds of loading the OGN stream, the first frame shows the lineups for Stars vs OGN.
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:37 Azrael1111 wrote:
is tls irc channel not on gamesurge? #teamliquid is empty
The irc channel is under quakenet. There's two links to the bottom left of the tl.net page:
irc://irc.quakenet.org/teamliquid and
http://www.teamliquid.net/irc/ (if you don't have mirc)
sorry i meant bottom left not right
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9070 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:37 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:mvp cuuuuuuuurse, now way bisu is gonna win
first time hearing of such a thing
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9070 Posts
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:19 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:10 MrHoon wrote:On January 12 2009 18:03 Matoo- wrote:
6 pages and the match hasn't even started. KTF vs SKT will always be special.
Take it home Bisu! thats how fun KTF vs SKT is! I was worried KTF vs SKT would die out because most the rivalries were gone after the 4 KTF veterans left, but we have new ones coming our way KTF is a one-man team today...nothing like the old days
Flash and Luxury both have great rivalries with T1 players:
Flash vs. Bisu: they're probably the top two players in the world right now, and obviously they're also just coming off of a nailbitingly close series which Bisu won 2-1. Flash has a chance to prove himself here. Of course, don't forget Flash cheesing Bisu out of the Daum OSL or their epic game on Katrina in Bacchus. One more fun fact: in both of T1's matches against KTF last season, Flash lost his first game and then returned to win in the ace. The first time he lost to Canata and then returned to beat Bisu on Andromeda (when this map was brand new). The second time...read below!
Flash vs. BeSt: this is probably the best untapped rivalry in pro SC right now. Here we have two macro monsters who destroy shit in Proleague and are especially talented against each others' race. They both go deep in Starleagues, but have only met once - in T1's second match against KTF last Proleague season (Flash keeps losing to Zergs before he can meet BeSt in the OSL, and both lost their GOM Ro8 matches). When BeSt faced Flash at that time, he was the heavy underdog. Flash was flying high after Bacchus OSL and destroying everyone in the Proleague (including JangBi on Colosseum, the very map which this game would take place on - a move which seemed to solidify Flash's position as the ultimate TvP weapon). In fact, Flash had won his last 12 TvPs before this game against BeSt on Colosseum.
BeSt shocked everyone by foregoing his traditional PvT style for 2gate carriers - remember, this was at a time when Flash seemed totally invincible against carriers due to his innovative upgrade-powered TvP build which "solved" TvP on Katrina. Flash was caught totally off guard and, despite putting up a great defense, dropped the set. I'm sure that game left a bitter taste in the mouths of Flash fans, and even as a BeSt fan I have been dying for these two to face each other in a BoX series - just so that everyone will give BeSt's PvT the credit it deserves.
BeSt vs. Luxury: EVER2008 OSL semifinals. Do I need to say more? Luxury had the map pool and BeSt's worst MU in his favor, but blew an 0-2 lead in pretty spectacular fashion. Lux looked like a lock to win the series after deflecting BeSt's proxy on Hwarangdo (which, by the way, is NOT a "best play"...Lux scouted the proxy extremely early and just a-moved lings into BeSt's undefended main - not to mention that Hwarangdo was so horribly imbalanced in PvZ that the proxy was a pretty brilliant strategy in the first place) and then successfully 2-hatch hydraing BeSt on Andromeda, but cameras caught him crying in the waiting room after BeSt embarrassed him in game 3 on Troy with a clever elevator move. The rest of the series is history - BeSt took the 4set despite a massive ling runby and then just steamrolled the bewildered then-OGN Zerg in the 5set on Hwarangdo.
Lux's worst matchup is ZvP and BeSt's is obviously PvZ, but the rivalry retains its entertainment value because both players own their other matchups and they'll always have this nasty series behind them.
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LAST DAY OF NEO REQ YAY CELEBRATE AND PARTY!!!!~!~!~!!1!!!ONE!!!
GOGO HARAN HWAITING
:D:D:D
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9070 Posts
I dont get the meaning of this
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United States12607 Posts
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STARTING!
Map: Sin Chupung-Ryeong
Haran (Z) Top
BeSt (P) Bottom
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FE for Best.
9 pool for Haran. Now he takes his gas
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
KTF has so much zerg potential. 815, Haran, Firefist. All failed to become the next big zerg.
I hope Haran can become a good zerg. His style is great.
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On January 12 2009 18:42 disciple wrote:
I dont get the meaning of this
Neo requium got taken out of the pl map pool and replaced with tau cross, best move ever
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Go Haran! I'm just tired of protoss winning
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Haran gotta bust out his muta ---> ultra build.
Great psychological attack if anything.
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Forge up. Best puts 2 cannons.
6 lings for Haran chasing probe
Nexus up for Best in his nat
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Osaka27149 Posts
Best being careful with three cannons.
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Haran puts now hatch at his nat. He finally kills the scouting probe.
Best added 3d cannon in his nat
Harab takes 3rd in the top right corner
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daum sports guide the link please!
pretty please!
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Osaka27149 Posts
Haran playing smart, two lings on the back ramp to prevent the scout.
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United States12607 Posts
I have just been made aware that Manifesto7 is a KTF fan. BETRAYAL MOST FOUL!
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Thx! Can u please post the link for the stars vs ogn game?
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Haran teching to Lair.
Best puts down Core followed by stargate. Citadel for Best
Haran adds Spire
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Osaka27149 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:48 jwd241224 wrote:
I have just been made aware that Manifesto7 is a KTF fan. BETRAYAL MOST FOUL!
hahaha, I actually like both, unless they play each other
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Best adds 3 gates in his main.
Hydra den for Haran
Sair is out. Pounding at the scouting overloard.
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Osaka27149 Posts
three hatcheries at haran's nat now, spire and den almost done. one sair out for best as he techs to temps.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:48 Elsi wrote:Thx! Can u please post the link for the stars vs ogn game?
Just head to sports.media.daum.net and at the top right you'll see a box with a scrollbar. Check in there for the events that have the orange "LIVE" box next to them - one will be the Stars v. OGN game (but you'd have to be craaaazy to watch it over this ^^).
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Templar ARchieves are up for BeSt. First Templar out.
Haran scouts it with scourges.
Mutas out for Haran but Best have 2 archons
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On January 12 2009 18:50 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 18:48 Elsi wrote:Thx! Can u please post the link for the stars vs ogn game? Just head to sports.media.daum.net and at the top right you'll see a box with a scrollbar. Check in there for the events that have the orange "LIVE" box next to them - one will be the Stars v. OGN game (but you'd have to be craaaazy to watch it over this ^^).
Hence What I want the direct link
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United States12607 Posts
This looks like the +1 speedlot archon build we have been hearing so much about. I hope BeSt can deal enough damage. Haran is pretty hunkered down.
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Muta harass at the nat but is forced to retreat.
Best is gathering now zealots and now he is moving out
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United States12607 Posts
wow, archons own about 10 scourge. Archons....godly
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Haran acts suprised that Archons rape scourge in 1 hit
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Ugh several scourge taken down.
Haran needs to macro up an army befor the push comes.
Haran is making lurkerling instead of hydra.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Yes now the scoure land and take out all teh sairs.
Haran also picks off a Nexus at the bottom right along with the probe. Nice scouting
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United States12607 Posts
BeSt's 3rd is seriously delayed now, he needs to get his act together.
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Haran loses lots of scourges taking down only one sair.
Best stops his push and goes toward bottom left
Haran scourges 3 sairs. Nice muta harass. Stops best from taking 3rd,
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best with most of his army ath his 3'rd.
He really needs to catch on economically.
Hehe cute archon snipe by haran.
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Hive for Haran
Best puts nexus in the bottom right. He has 2 archons there to defend from mutas
Haran still tries to stop 3rdfor Best but it is futile now
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United States12607 Posts
Haran is playing really aggressively, but he has yet to take a 4th. Not sure how he plans to handle this massive army which is heading up the map atm. Hivetech is coming but will not be out in time.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best has an uncomfortably large army.
Haran could be in trouble with this attack on his nat!
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Defiler mound for Haran. But Best comes with a scary army at the Harabs nat.
Haran lost one of his hatch there, Good storm by Best takes down lots of hydras
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
OO SHIT haran is countering at the 3rd with his whole army.
Best is forced back across the map!
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On January 12 2009 18:29 Samurai- wrote:
<bisu> we who are about to loose, SALUTE YOU..
:O
on a serious note, we could have VLC for this great event
/me bows and points to Corinthos
These kinds of posts will make it LESS likely that cor will post it here -_-
It's like saying that you expect Corinthos to provide a stream.
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United States12607 Posts
Massive storm kills 2 lurks, 2 hydra, ~6 lings. Haran is getting smart and decides to counter at BeSt's third.......BeSt evacuates! Looks like nexus will be sniped. Yes, nexus falls. BeSt really needs to deal damage with this army he has out in the field. Keep in mind, though, that Haran is still sitting on 3base to BeSt's 2.
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Haran goes in the best 3rd. Best will lose nexus. And nexus is indeed down
Greater spire for Haran
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Third taken down.
Now Haran needs to defend against this Protoss ball and he will be way ahead.\
4 goon trapped by cracklings. Sloppy play by Best.
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United States12607 Posts
come on BeSt, let's see some fireworks! At least your storms are doing well.
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And defilers are out for Haran. Best tries to retake bottom right
Lots of lurkers out for Haran. He loses deiler to strom in the middle.
Gaurdians are coming for Haran. Haran tries to revent again 3rd from coming up
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:58 Piste wrote:
haran is so dead..
Dont make misleading posts plz. He is in decent shape.
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United States12607 Posts
Guardians out for Haran. I can't remember a ZvP where the Zerg made guards and won, so this must be a good sign.
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Can someone please post the daum sports link for the stars vs ogn game!
thx~!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best makes several corsairs and dts but Haran makes some hydras to counter.
Nice plague by Haran.
Haran finally taking a 4'th base.
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United States12607 Posts
My god BeSt...learn some control lol. He's got zealots running around under guardians while a corsair fleet sits across the map. Got to love this guy's PvZ - it's like watching a trainwreck. Not really sure whether Haran will be in the way when this thing flies off the tracks.
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Dts out for Best. Guardians going towards Bests 3rd but retreat.
Plague on part of bests force. And again now.
Shuttle out for Best. DT drop!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 12 2009 18:59 jwd241224 wrote:
Guardians out for Haran. I can't remember a ZvP where the Zerg made guards and won, so this must be a good sign.
Backho vs Gorush and backho vs some zerg (by.hero?). Both in MST.
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On January 12 2009 18:59 jwd241224 wrote:
Guardians out for Haran. I can't remember a ZvP where the Zerg made guards and won, so this must be a good sign.
First game that comes to mind is July vs Best game 3
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Spawning pool down! And so is defiler mound! But is cleaned now by Haran.
Haran lost all his gaurdians. But gets 3(?) sairs at least in exchange
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United States12607 Posts
All of these narrow cliffs make lurkers extremely effective. At least BeSt has his 4th base coming now.
Haran is making good use of plague, this is something we should see more Zergs doing IMO.
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Man, Haran needs to take out Best's 3rd and 4th with a dark swarm. then it would be gg =(
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best takes down the guards but at the cost of all his corsairs.
Best taking a 4'th base too.
Haran needs to do some crackling raids to fuck his econ.
Best is lookign very good right now. Probably dominating in supply as he has a large army and Haran doesnt.
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United States12607 Posts
BeSt misses about 7 storms........let's go man!!
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Skirmish in the mid of map. Good storms by best. Most of hydras for Haran are down.
Lots of small fights. Haran tries to snipe templars with mixed results.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Pimping plagyes by Haran. Bests forces are drenched in red goo.
I dotn know if it wil be enough though. Best is getting an uncomfortably large amount of archons. He has 4 base. Haran needs to raid his bases or hes dead for sure.
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United States12607 Posts
I guess BeSt's counter to plague is to waste all of his templar energy and morph 99999 archons...lol this is getting a bit ridiculous.
Haran seems to be playing much better, but with the map divided 50/50 I think Protoss will be well ahead here.
lol, BeSt has about 50 HTs outside his nat.
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United States12607 Posts
LOL BeSt has an entire army of HTs, quite literally
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Best has around 10 archons now.
Haran takes 9 and Best takes 3
Best storming now single lurkers.
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On January 12 2009 19:05 TheTyranid wrote:
Pimping plagyes by Haran. Bests forces are drenched in red goo.
I dotn know if it wil be enough though. Best is getting an uncomfortably large amount of archons. He has 4 base. Haran needs to raid his bases or hes dead for sure.
Didn't you know? Plague on archons is the greatest thing in the game.
srs note: Best has... 15 archons or so running around. Good storms rape hydras before they can run under swarm.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Haran trying to fight the archons with hydras and plagues them for some wierd reason.
Ooh nice attack! Haran picks off some high templar out of position. They morph into chons but it doesnt save them.
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That is many archon, yes?
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The daum sports stream is perfect. Don't know which is ahead though, that one or Corinthos'
edit: ok, daum is FIRMLY ahead. at least one minute. maybe 90-110 secs.
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Osaka27149 Posts
haran is playing really well. expanding and being just aggressive enough for his expo to be safe. best is gonna have a TON of archons though.
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Haran has a ultralisk cavern for a while now but I see no ultralisk. and Archons are raping all his shit.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:06 xxsaznpride wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:05 TheTyranid wrote:
Pimping plagyes by Haran. Bests forces are drenched in red goo.
I dotn know if it wil be enough though. Best is getting an uncomfortably large amount of archons. He has 4 base. Haran needs to raid his bases or hes dead for sure.
Didn't you know? Plague on archons is the greatest thing in the game. srs note: Best has... 15 archons or so running around. Good storms rape hydras before they can run under swarm.
I was talking about the plague where he actually got goons and zeals. Not the useless plague after on the chons.
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Haran goes for Bests 4 th at 6. He will take it down.
Best counters at 9 and he takes it down.
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United States12607 Posts
Haran finally raids BeSt's 4th, as he should have done 20 minutes ago. It may be too late for him however, BeSt is rampaging up the left side of the map with his archon ball. Haran seems to think BeSt has some sort of impenetrable defense at his 3rd...there are 3 cannons there.
BeSt now owning all of Haran's expos....
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Ouch, drone massacre at 9 o clock, both players taking out each other's expansions now, go go Haran
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Haran finally takes out the 4'th base and a new 5'th base at 3.
It's too late though. Best is rolling over Harans bases with many archons.
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Best goes for 11 and takes it down with his massive army of archons.
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On January 12 2009 19:08 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:06 xxsaznpride wrote:On January 12 2009 19:05 TheTyranid wrote:
Pimping plagyes by Haran. Bests forces are drenched in red goo.
I dotn know if it wil be enough though. Best is getting an uncomfortably large amount of archons. He has 4 base. Haran needs to raid his bases or hes dead for sure.
Didn't you know? Plague on archons is the greatest thing in the game. srs note: Best has... 15 archons or so running around. Good storms rape hydras before they can run under swarm. I was talking about the plague where he actually got goons and zeals. Not the useless plague after on the chons.
I know that... i was just making a joke.
Haran raping on random obs floating around the map. Both sides gathering their armies and getting their bases back up, I guess.
Gogo haran longmining.
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United States12607 Posts
lol what is this, BeSt has simply the worst control ever. I see streams of HTs cruising across the map randomly and...did he just clone his obs and send them right over a massive clump of hydra? This game is so garbage.
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This is so hard to watch >.<
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best pulls back after taking out zerg 4'th.
They are essentially back to their 3 bases which should be mostly dried up.
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United States12607 Posts
Now that the map is effectively mined out, Best should win easily. That archon ball is simply too much for any Zerg to handle without producing more units.
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Best is gonna be unstoppable with this army.
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Osaka27149 Posts
best just lost 5/6 obs in 5 seconds.
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Haran doesn't even have money for a hatchery!!! Nuuuuuuuu.
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Haran distant mining at 11 (his 4th)
Finally haran retakes his 4th puting down a hatchery there.
Another drop is coming from Best
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Best storms his own zealots.
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Suttle gets plagued and sniped by hydras
OMG. Best couldn't kill single lurker with 4 stroms. Finally takes it down when Archon is morphed,
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United States12607 Posts
lol, BeSt apparently needs 4 storms to kill that single lurker. Someone please tell Bisu he needs to spend more time teaching Jaewook the art of PvZ.
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Let's see that monster macro play, BeSt
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BeSt could possibly have the worst PvZ storms in progaming...
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Dropship taken out. Random lurker was hitting on Best's passing army as he had no obs.
Haran still has nice Plague, catching 5zel and an archon.
Heading to an 11 expo is Best's army.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:10 29 fps wrote:
pretty epic 1st match
epicly awful...this game is seriously painful to watch, and I'm a huge fan of the player who's winning right now
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Haran has retaken his 4'th. Best hasn't and has been sitting idly with his army roaming the map w/o a plan of action.
Haran might take this.
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maybe best should of added a couple of reavers into his army!
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Lol...that's why you need a good Zerg in the SKT1 house
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9070 Posts
Haran should GG he is just abusing the map
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Haran has almost no ground army...
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Well haran did play nice for a bit untill macro toss kicked in
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That's awful amount of Archons. Could rape anything he wants nao =(
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Osaka27149 Posts
man those plagued zealots just vaporize
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United States12607 Posts
Here comes BeSt with his massive ball of archons...bloody death for Haran incoming
....wait, BeSt pulls back. Seriously, make a scout and just end this shit already lol
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... Haran keeps sending small chunks of lings into Best's archons. This game is pretty much Best's: too many archons vs virtually nothing.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
IF best attacks right now he will win. HE has about a dozen archons.
It doesn't look like haran has any units left. Wtf is Best doing? Attack.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:14 TheTyranid wrote:
IF best attacks right now he will win. HE has about a dozen archons.
It doesn't look like haran has any units left. Wtf is Best doing? Attack.
Bisu needs time to do his makeup!
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Best is making sure he has the win!
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Fake doomdrop on the east side for Haran? Wat?
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Best takes his 4th at 5. Haran tried to stop it but he was fended off. This is sooo over...
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:15 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:14 TheTyranid wrote:
IF best attacks right now he will win. HE has about a dozen archons.
It doesn't look like haran has any units left. Wtf is Best doing? Attack. Bisu needs time to do his makeup!
This game is long already. How much makeup does a guy need anyway?
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If I didn't know any better, I'd interpret Best's reluctance to end this as a plea for a KeSPA official to call it a draw.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:16 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:15 jwd241224 wrote:On January 12 2009 19:14 TheTyranid wrote:
IF best attacks right now he will win. HE has about a dozen archons.
It doesn't look like haran has any units left. Wtf is Best doing? Attack. Bisu needs time to do his makeup! This game is long already. How much makeup does a guy need anyway?
It probably won't matter, because all of the viewers will poke out their eyes unless someone ends this game fast.
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good lord, will this ever end
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There's no way Haran is taking this game....
It was over alonggg time ago. I think BeSt is going add scouts into his army.
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Haran is almost mined out. And Best rapes the enitre of haran's army now. C'mon best just end it now
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Their armies clash and Haran has about as many units as Best does archons. Not good 'cause Best has more of everything else too.
GG haran.
edit: DAMMIT CAMERA JUST CUT TO BOXER HE'S ALL WE WANNA SEE
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Is that called a steam roll when those archons just raped everything?
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Should have doom droped the main and take out all the tech and gateways ....
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Two crowns for BeSt ?!
=O
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9070 Posts
ahh at last such a crap game
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United States12607 Posts
Yes, now BeSt has TWO silver crowns!!
P.S. Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck those symbols mean? I'm guessing you get stars for each win and then a crown = 10 wins? I think BeSt is at 19-5 right now....this makes no sense to me.
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frustrating game. Best could have won like 3-4 times.
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Haran gg's, but damm, he was fighting well.
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Osaka27149 Posts
Best isn't exactly showing off his killer instinct is he?
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On January 12 2009 19:18 Storchen wrote:
frustrating game. Best could have won like 3-4 times.
Seriously. He was just fucking around with his archons...
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:19 Manifesto7 wrote:
Best isn't exactly showing off his killer instinct is he?
No, he isn't. BeSt has been playing like garbage ever since his win against sAviOr, I guess some of Ma Bonjwa's funk rubbed off on him.
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On January 12 2009 19:18 jwd241224 wrote:
Yes, now BeSt has TWO silver crowns!!
P.S. Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck those symbols mean? I'm guessing you get stars for each win and then a crown = 10 wins? I think BeSt is at 19-5 right now....this makes no sense to me.
Best is 20-6 with that win
Every win is half a star, and yes, crown = 10 wins
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that was a rape sadly.
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On January 12 2009 19:18 jwd241224 wrote:
Yes, now BeSt has TWO silver crowns!!
P.S. Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck those symbols mean? I'm guessing you get stars for each win and then a crown = 10 wins? I think BeSt is at 19-5 right now....this makes no sense to me.
Basically itz half a star per win. So, does that make sense now ?
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9070 Posts
40 min of hype build up to see how flash will cheese bisu
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United States12607 Posts
Why even show the replay of this game? What are they going to show? This is like beating a dead horse, burying it, and then digging it back up so you can beat its corpse some more.
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On January 12 2009 19:18 jwd241224 wrote:
Yes, now BeSt has TWO silver crowns!!
P.S. Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck those symbols mean? I'm guessing you get stars for each win and then a crown = 10 wins? I think BeSt is at 19-5 right now....this makes no sense to me.
Its half star for a win and a silver crown for every 10 wins, gold crown means your the shit and your no.1, best is 20-5 right now tlpd proleauge 1v1 stats arnt right at the moment
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:20 YEAHHHH BOIIII wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:18 jwd241224 wrote:
Yes, now BeSt has TWO silver crowns!!
P.S. Does anyone have ANY idea what the fuck those symbols mean? I'm guessing you get stars for each win and then a crown = 10 wins? I think BeSt is at 19-5 right now....this makes no sense to me. Best is 20-6 with that win Every win is half a star, and yes, crown = 10 wins
Thanks, guys. I guess what threw me off is that TLPD is missing one of his games? TLPD shows BeSt at 18-5 before tonight's match.
edit: mystery solved, thanks scaramanga.
edit 2: oh god, please take out the "nice game" you left in the OP, I feel bad for anyone who watches this because of your recommendation
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Oh boy. Both Bisu and Flash look really focused
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Man Best sucks PvZ.... Lucky for him Haran is even worse ZvP.
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Oh my god. Best is horrible at PvZ. But his macro is so good it really doesn't matter against lesser players.
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Haran looks really upset. Poor guy.
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United States20661 Posts
So horrid.
Bisu PvZ: Harass with probe, corsair, reaver, dt until he alt-q-qs in frustration.
Best PvZ: 1a2a3a when you've amassed more archons than he has zerglings.
Fucking...
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That was a really nice game, how could anyone disagree with me, just stop watching after best gets 5 arcons
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:26 Scaramanga wrote:
That was a really nice game, how could anyone disagree with me, just stop watching after best gets 5 arcons
That would mean watching about 10% of this bastard's running time!
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I wish they'd hurry up and start Flash vs. Bisu. I wanna giddy up to bed pretty quick.
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Little Monster is angry, just look at him. He's ready to rape.
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On January 12 2009 19:26 Scaramanga wrote:
That was a really nice game, how could anyone disagree with me, just stop watching after best gets 5 arcons
Well its was entertaining, but the quality of play was horrible.
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United States12607 Posts
Flash is warming up, no twitch evident. I also see that he's on the verge of 2 crowns! Bisu must intervene!
Wow, the Bisu fangirls are IN FORCE.
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If Flash wins he will get 2nd crown
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jwd241224 i think someone need to send you to bed ^^
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:29 sovietico wrote:
jwd241224 i think someone need to send you to bed ^^
Thanks mate ^^
My excuse for staying up is that the first game was hardly a game....
+ Show Spoiler +
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what a surprise, as soon as Best vs Haran was over and it went to commercial (after showing Flash/Bisu splitscreen) the daum stream went lagging like a bitch. Hope it recovers, this could be really be something.
Time to not recall on this map again!
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9070 Posts
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I are not going to bed. Me have english homework. Me have work in 4 hours. I must watch.
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United States12607 Posts
Flash is talking to himself...I wonder what he's saying? It looks like it might be the same thing, over and over:
"BBS"
...
"BBS"
"BBS"
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what do those crowns mean? i saw best get a second one or something at first
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Starting. Bisu with his G L~
Bisu @ 10
Flash @ 6, c'mon cheeseee
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Starting:
Medusa
Flash (T) at 6
Bisu (P) at 10
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United States12607 Posts
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style!
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FlaSh v Bisu
GL HF AND MAY THE BEST TERRAN WIN
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:32 29 fps wrote:
what do those crowns mean? i saw best get a second one or something at first
As earlier posts in this thread reveal, I now know that each half star = one PL win, and 5 stars = 1 crown. So BeSt has 20 wins (2 crowns), and Flash will too if he wins this game.
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can't wait to see some destruction by flash
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Remember the time before last time they played on this map?
When Flash snuch a bunker up behind Bisu's mineralline?
if anything like that happens again haha... wow.. people are gonna be so mad.
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KIM TAEK YONG FIGHTING!!!
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LoL flash wont cheese
he'll sit in his base until he's 3-3 and maxed. MASTER TURTLER
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On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style!
Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous.
Anyone?
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Flash walling off. Flash scouting after depot. Nvm, he just mines mins next to the temples
Fast nexus for Bisu at min only
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9070 Posts
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On January 12 2009 19:34 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style! Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous. Anyone?
Yeah me too.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:34 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style! Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous. Anyone?
Not usually the case for me, but your post did make me yawn.
edit: not in the sense that it was boring lol, but it literally made me yawn (I guess thinking about yawning will sometimes make me yawn, just like seeing someone else do it).
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9070 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:35 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:34 GinNtoniC wrote:On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style! Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous. Anyone? Yeah me too.
same here, I feel very sleepy just before my exams
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core for Bisu. Marine is out just in time to scare the scouting probe away.
Flash hides his scv in Bisus main. Sneaky
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So that's how you wall at 6...... I make tight walls at 6.. ahh
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On January 12 2009 19:35 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:34 GinNtoniC wrote:On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style! Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous. Anyone? Not usually the case for me, but your post did make me yawn.
HILARIOUS
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Russian Federation987 Posts
1 scv on gas for flash. prolly will be 1fac cc
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9070 Posts
flash cheesing ! nvm I thought he was going to build smth in bisu's main
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:36 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:35 jwd241224 wrote:On January 12 2009 19:34 GinNtoniC wrote:On January 12 2009 19:32 jwd241224 wrote:
Meanwhile, Bisu is yawning. Taekyong really knows how to win with style! Actually, he does that very often at the start of games. I don't know if anyone else has experienced the same, but I find myself yawning/feeling very tired sometimes when I'm very nervous. Anyone? Not usually the case for me, but your post did make me yawn.
HILARIOUS
read my edit, it was an unintentional pun.
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2 gates form Bisu. 1 fac for Flash. 1 tank out for Flash
Scv now scouting Bisu's main. It sees the nexus at the min only
Armory for Flash and robo for Bisu
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:36 disciple wrote:
flash cheesing !
....please do not do this. go go edit power!
Flash is playing standard.
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Russian Federation987 Posts
zealot out for bisu, standing near the natural. CC started for flash in his main. bisu moving out with 1goon and lot.
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i like how people criticize flash for both cheesing and turtling
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Osaka27149 Posts
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Russian Federation987 Posts
2 more gates for bisu as well as robo fac. Bisu killed the scouting scv in his main
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Elevator!! But E-bay saw it.
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Flash lands his cc at his nat. 3 tanks out. Flash walls in at the nat and takes the gas there
Another cc for Flash. He gets also engineering bay.
2 goons up the ramp bext to temples but spotted by the floating bay
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
bulldog incoming
Good call! 2 shuttles!
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On January 12 2009 19:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
bulldog incoming
I think he's going to elevator in the back.
Maybe the front.
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Osaka27149 Posts
ridiculous defense from flash
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Russian Federation987 Posts
eng bay, +1 weap, 2nd gas for flash
bisu snipes hero marine
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omfg, and i have to go now noooooooo, pls vooods up as soon as possible, tnx
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amazing defences from flash!
the multitasking showed there awesome!!
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2 shuttles for Bisu! Bisu goes in but wall is repaired by lots of scvs. Finally tanks seige and Bisu retreats
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WOW defended pretty well..
flash needs to stop being so greedy. get some facs!
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Wow that was some crazy defence
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Its beyond me how flash defended from this.
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United States12607 Posts
That attack was quite ingenious - Flash's tanks are busy chasing zealots around his main, and meanwhile goons at his front door cost a ton of mining time. However, good defense. Many Terrans might have lost their nat/several more tanks to that play.
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9070 Posts
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I actually think BeSt is more suited to take a game vs Flash on Medusa.
Taking loads of bases and macroing like a madman..
oooh, hold that thought!
here comes the late bulldog from game 3 in GOM!
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Osaka27149 Posts
Honestly, that was some of the best multitask defense I have seen with the mass repair and tanks vs zealots.
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Bisu takes already his 4th at 1
Bisu has his nat running now and he adds templar archieves and stargate
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Russian Federation987 Posts
wow perfect defence by flash
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Osaka27149 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:41 disciple wrote:
this is so over
Stop posting in the live report threads if you don't know what you are talking about. Thanks.
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flash is just unreal sometimes
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bisu sucked flash was dead
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Again sweet defense from Flash. Bisu tried the same trick again by dropping lots and attacking front with goons
Flash getting 4th and 5th fac
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On January 12 2009 19:41 Manifesto7 wrote:
Honestly, that was some of the best multitask defense I have seen with the mass repair and tanks vs zealots.
He immediately sent his scvs to the depo when he saw the shuttles coming in. Ingenious.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:41 disciple wrote:
this is so over
Thank god you're not the only one live reporting this game.....
Bisu breaks down Flash's front door briefly, but Flash gets his tanks in position and holds.
Bisu has his 4th up already? He is looking strong, but obviously we'll have to see how he deals with the upgrade timing push from Flash.
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On January 12 2009 19:41 disciple wrote:
this is so over
lol how? Bisu slowed down mining and slowed down the third from lifting off and going to the min only, meanwhile Bisu double expo'd and will soon be a powerhouse running off 4 base.
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Bisu getting 7th and 8th gate
Arbiter tribunal up for Bisu
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That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out.
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That was a really cool build seemingly tailored to Flash's tendency to be greedy and double expo with only one factory.
Incredible tank micro by Flash. Awesome game so far.
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wow, bisu REALLY wants to break that natural!
I think the reasoning is good:
He's better off trading armies and staying low supply vs low supply, rather than getting to the 200/200 vs 200/200 3-3 faceoff.
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Bisu tries to take main at 3 but Flash snipes the probe.
Flash moving out now adding some more factories.
Flash about to take the 9
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Osaka27149 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:43 GinNtoniC wrote:
That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out.
If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv.
And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about.
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Man Flash's tanks looks scary just sitting there...
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Osaka27149 Posts
SICK STASIS ON THAT VESSEL
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United States12607 Posts
WWOWOOOOOOOOOOO MINE DRAG
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Korea (South)922 Posts
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Fucking huge mine drag. Flash lost all his force in that clash...
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United States12607 Posts
Bisu is seriously ridiculous these days.....
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aww damn everyone seems to be ahead. ill stop reading here.
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that mine drag was crazy!
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7 factories vs a billion gateways =(. This sucks....................
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Russian Federation987 Posts
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OMG that was orgasmic by Bisu.
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bisu vs flash never fails to deliver
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United States12607 Posts
WWAAAAA
3/3 with stasis on moving vessels
TAEKYONGGG
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Russian Federation987 Posts
so sweet arbiter usage by beesuit. flash just wastes all his scans
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Flash gets 3rd machine shop. Bisu attacks Flash agian and takes down most of his force. Now he goes and attacks 9 again. Flash is forced o lift cc
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United States12607 Posts
Bisu has DTs coming en masse...Flash is just now researching EMP - seems a bit late, doesn't it? I mean, he's already produced 6? vessels!
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Korea (South)922 Posts
ridiculous amount of zealots
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Russian Federation987 Posts
lol at statising 2 more vessels
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That's a huge army of zealots for Bisu...
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On January 12 2009 19:50 jwd241224 wrote:
Bisu has DTs coming en masse...Flash is just now researching EMP - seems a bit late, doesn't it? I mean, he's already produced 6? vessels!
Energy. He tried to emp before I think
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bisu showing some sick play here = _ =
godlike micro and awesome map control!
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Russian Federation987 Posts
bisu razes 9 o'clock. looks bad for flash here
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United States12607 Posts
Flash can defend, but I don't think he has any hope of securing a 4th. Bisu has played this game brilliantly.
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Korea (South)922 Posts
there goes flash's 4th cc.
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Flash boy needs more vultures!. v v v v v
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Russian Federation987 Posts
5 bases vs 3. waiting for doom recall?
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Bisu takes nat of 3 o'clock.
Flash loses his cc at 9...
Now he cleans Bisu's force there. Too late too little.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 12 2009 19:51 Solinren wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:50 jwd241224 wrote:
Bisu has DTs coming en masse...Flash is just now researching EMP - seems a bit late, doesn't it? I mean, he's already produced 6? vessels! Energy. He tried to emp before I think
I wonder....do stasised units accumulate energy? But your explanation doesn't address the fact that EMP was researching so late...
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EMPed a recall! Finally something that goes right for Flash
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Russian Federation987 Posts
lol. CC floating to 9 was sniped by 4 dragoons sitting here
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Beautiful emp from Flash saves him from recall at 9.
Another arbiter down to goliathes
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flash coming bk slowly!
awesome harassing and awreness!
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
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United States12607 Posts
Flash is doing some great vulture harass here, but it just won't help. Bisu has about a million gates and complete map control.
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Vultures flash!! VULTURES!!!!!! C'mon boy. Losing too much tanks here.
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United States12607 Posts
Fuck those were great storms...but FLASH STILL HAS TONS OF TANKS!
Bisu can simply outproduce him now, units are no object
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Flash loses fuckloads of ranks but he has fuckloads of tanks still!!!
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The crowd AWEASOEIRJAWES;OFLJAS;DKLFJ as the camera cuts to Flash's army's other half. hahahah
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Damn all those tanks!!!!
Bisu needs more army power here...
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United States12607 Posts
Flash sieges near Bisu's nat, but Bisu breaks this easily
GG any minute now I think
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steam is dead for me D: !!!!
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FUCK IT........................... Sad day for Flash. and a twitch.
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Russian Federation987 Posts
Flash is harassing hardly at 3 and massing. Bisu ENGAGES
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Bisu is producing shitloads of units from like 20 gates. All os Flash force goes down...
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lol wtf these tanks come from haha
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Russian Federation987 Posts
Oh no, nice matrixes from flash! Bisu retreats, flash's pushing
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flash lacking vultures in that attack there
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=\ gg flash... or at least that's how it looks.
Flash vult-harasses 3 while Bisu catches 4 tanks defending his 9 with a stasis... 9 gone?
oh and flash's main is mined out with scv's juts idle.
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Russian Federation987 Posts
OMG, Bisu 's macro is scary. Tons of units coming from nowhere and breaking Flash's push
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lucifer should take the next game
P > Z on Requiem!
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wth my stream is like, buffer for 10seconds, watch for 1sec, and buffer again.. Then my stream keeps cutting off the play, leaving only the audio part behind..
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Russian Federation987 Posts
9 is dying.. looks over soon
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WOW all those High Templars...
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United States12607 Posts
GEEEE GEEEE
Great showing from Flash, but Bisu was simply flawless.
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Flash takes 5 and seems like instant recal is coming there. I was wrong no recall yet
A huge amount fo templars for Bisu.
Bisu engages again and lceanes most of Flash force and Flash ggs
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
this is S class play right here. damn.
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gg from Flash. Fuck that shit
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can we have a channel that is just flash vs bisu all the time and drop all this amateur crap, goddamn this game is great
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BISU doing some monster BeSt macroing...
the commercial for this rematch was well played
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This is not a good thing to post, but I just have to:
Serves you right, you turtling, coward, boring excuse for a player!
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United States12607 Posts
lol, Bisu sticks out his tongue at the camera!
And with that....I'm off to sleep. If I wake up tomorrow and see 3-2 KTF with Flash in the ace, my wrath will flow forth into this thread!
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and the whole "i didnt practice/was ill" excuse goes down the toilet
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That is so true. This is the rivalry of today
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9070 Posts
haha boxer almost breaking bisu's hand
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LOL at Boxer's high five "hurting" bisu
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Awesome game with some unreal level of play~!
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On January 12 2009 19:59 jwd241224 wrote:
lol, Bisu sticks out his tongue at the camera!
And with that....I'm off to sleep. If I wake up tomorrow and see 3-2 KTF with Flash in the ace, my wrath will flow forth into this thread!
Lol, and i thought u resisted the temptation of this game
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Korea (South)922 Posts
ya but the "medusa pvt imbal" excuse still kicks in =p
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That was intense, hope they can rematch each other in ace match~~
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Russian Federation987 Posts
OMG Bisu played this so good
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If this game ends up in ace....
I would hope to see Flash vs Bisu in Ace ooooh that would be rather sick
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wow at the high templars production!
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Flash lacked vultures the entire game. If he only made more vultures. Zealots > Tanks =(
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OMG BOXER IS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW
BOXER AND BISU TOGETHER?????
UNBEATABLE
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This was super entertaining game i have to say. Too bad that Flash lost.
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The stereo plays "How does it feel to be replaced like that!?"
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Bisuuuuuu yeah just like that xD
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On January 12 2009 20:00 AltaiR_ wrote:
ya but the "medusa pvt imbal" excuse still kicks in =p
bisu already lost twice to flash on medusa. guess he learned his style this time. so awesome
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Flash looks like he is gonna murder a puppy.
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9070 Posts
this makes the result of bisu's OSL group even more painful
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If only Flash had more vultures all those clashes. Especially during the first one. And that huge mine drag... Oh well. Hope at st Lucifer and Lux can take it to ace where I can watch Flash again.
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On January 12 2009 20:02 Kentor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:00 AltaiR_ wrote:
ya but the "medusa pvt imbal" excuse still kicks in =p bisu already lost twice to flash on medusa. guess he learned his style this time. so awesome
Yeah Bisu's play in this game was much better suited to Flash's style than it was in the previous games it seems like.
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On January 12 2009 20:02 dragoonkf wrote:
Flash looks like he is gonna murder a puppy.
LOL
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KTF Coach: "you're going to get demoted to B if you lose."
Lucifer: "Noes."
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On January 12 2009 20:04 29 fps wrote:
has an skt zerg won yet?
Suprisingly they won I think 4 times by now
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Boxer and Bisu --------> imba
=)))
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Bisu and Best winning...a successful night I'd say
now drop 2 more games and Boxer for Ace!
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On January 12 2009 19:45 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:43 GinNtoniC wrote:
That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out. If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv. And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about.
So alternative 1 then. Ferry all units inside. Had he had just two goons in there to fire shots while the tanks where kiting around, that could have changed a lot. Probably even end the game right there.
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Haha cool, Boxer and Bisu sitting together.
Boxer, Bisu, Best - The 3 B's of SKTT1 !!
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Yesssssssss. It's the ragnorak girl. <3
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This being said, I don't know what Best is doing, he looks like a pretty smart guy and I thought he would be improving his micro and overall finesse a lot after he lost to July. But he's clearly not :/ oh, he's still racking up wins right left and center, but that won't be enough to make him the next Bonjwa I (and also Bisu, apparently) thought he was gonna be.
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Terrans need to come up with something completely different on Medusa or else they're finished on this map. Flash was the only person winning at all on it, but I think if a Dragon plays the way Bisu did this game, there's only so much more that can be done.
Perhaps if Flash stalled the later bases a little bit more, but it seems unlikely that would have made a difference. The dilemma is that you have to sacrifice many many of your Vultures to stall/harass the later bases, and you need those same Vultures to hold off the 40+ Zealots that come in the next Protoss push break.
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On January 12 2009 20:06 dragoonkf wrote:
Haha cool, Boxer and Bisu sitting together.
Boxer, Bisu, Best - The 3 B's of SKTT1 !!
Don't forget Bul_T, he's easily the best of them and is going to lead the all-kills next season
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Some nice play from Bisu there, I had 100% faith he wouldn't let Flash do what he did last time on that map. Now for TheZerg to finish this up with the 3-0.
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9070 Posts
btw, bisu was upgrading his army like mad, even the shields
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On January 12 2009 20:06 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:45 Manifesto7 wrote:On January 12 2009 19:43 GinNtoniC wrote:
That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out. If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv. And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about. So alternative 1 then. Ferry all units inside. Had he had just two goons in there to fire shots while the tanks where kiting around, that could have changed a lot. Probably even end the game right there.
He did have 2 goons inside, he just didn't have the starsense to remember the ones that were in flash's min only
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Wow only 2 pages for Star vs OGN, pretty sad.
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Ragnarok girl talks much =(
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All hope in Lucifer. Yikes...
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On January 12 2009 20:11 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:06 GinNtoniC wrote:On January 12 2009 19:45 Manifesto7 wrote:On January 12 2009 19:43 GinNtoniC wrote:
That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out. If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv. And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about. So alternative 1 then. Ferry all units inside. Had he had just two goons in there to fire shots while the tanks where kiting around, that could have changed a lot. Probably even end the game right there. He did have 2 goons inside, he just didn't have the starsense to remember the ones that were in flash's min only
Mind you, Bisu has great star sense, he is only but human.
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Last game on Neo Req. Go go.
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Neo requiem:
Lucifer (P) bottom
TheZerg (Z) right
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Osaka27149 Posts
I don't know why they keep sending out zerg on this map. Sure they win sometimes, but it is always a painful process.
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TheZerg scouts with his overloard up.
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Neo Requiem??? i hope Lucifer doesn't screw this...
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Gate for Lucifer
Pool and gas after 2nd ovie for TheZerg
Gas for Lucifer
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I think after his lost to SkyHigh..he's a bit shaken..
BeSt had some good macro but he plays in the clutch alot...I think it's a way maybe to confuse his opponent ...who knows...BeSt could do better in a few more seasons and more practice...
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2nd hacth for TheZerg
TheZerg has lings out (8 now) and is teching to Lair
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stargate for Lucifer.
Spire for TheZerg and robo for Lucifer. He also adds forge
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On January 12 2009 20:06 GinNtoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 19:45 Manifesto7 wrote:On January 12 2009 19:43 GinNtoniC wrote:
That was strange. How did Bisu fuck that up?
Either ferry all units inside or put all units on breaking the depot.
That split thing really really didn't work out. If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv. And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about. So alternative 1 then. Ferry all units inside. Had he had just two goons in there to fire shots while the tanks where kiting around, that could have changed a lot. Probably even end the game right there.
I don't think this was viable due to the turrets. He lost 1 shuttle and the other was low, no? Also, he probably killed a stack of scvs at the wall.
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First sair out. Zealots blocking Lucifer's ramp.
TheZerg takes 3rd at 1
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On January 12 2009 19:45 Manifesto7 wrote:
If he hadn't engaged the tanks, Flash would have just free-killed Bisu's army with his 6 tanks + scv.
And boonbag you don't know what you are talking about.
I do.
He had forgotten the 2 initial dragoons up there at min only and had his zealots free killed while all the time flash microed them off the two goons couldve sniped some tanks.
also bisu didnt control his dragoons at choke and almost didnt kill any reapairing scv.
ps : u got no clue. 7 goons + 7 zealots + 2 shuttles > 6 tanks any day. but u made me smile ^^
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Osaka27149 Posts
wow, mass drone and double expo from the eggs that should have been mutas. sairs are now not so great.
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Wow. TheZerg macroing much?
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TheZerg takes 4 th the top main.
Robo for Lucifer is up. Reaver is out.
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this is like...
weird... its like the 1 base versions of modern strats.
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Osaka27149 Posts
One base reaver sair is going to be pretty tough once TheZerg gets that third gas -_-
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TheZerg produces lots of mutas
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Why is he camping so long?
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TheZerg is on 3 gas now... hydra den for TheZerg
Lucifer adds 2nd starport.
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2nd stargate for Lucifer?That is a little bit weird
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Lucifer has no clue about the expansions. TheZerg will win his 3rd game on SKT
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Lol super weird game from Lucifer
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TheZerg with shitloads of scourges and mutas. And Lucifer gets the shutlle only now
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Osaka27149 Posts
Lucifer... wow, how the fuck did you survive that.
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There is no way Lucifer can win this imo.
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Somehow 4 sairs survive a huge cloud os scourges. 2 reavers in the TheZerg main
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lol totally weird build, from two hatch mutas to expanding, and he didnt rush mutas out immediately after the spire..
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Shuttle down. 2 reavers down... Lucifer is fucked...
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Osaka27149 Posts
Its over now though, as the hydra pump will just pin the zeals in the base.
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WTF WHY HASNT LUCIFER EXPO'D YET?
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Proxy hatchery. C'mon right now
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horrible micro from thezerg and horrible scouting from lucifer!
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DTs out. He has to do some magisc with them otheriwse it is over
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And there is fucking gg...
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GG
Haha, he catapulted from his booth.
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YAY AN SKT1 ZERG WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Horrible, just fucking horible
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yay a happy ending!
great job T1!
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Osaka27149 Posts
TheZerg really did well with those early scourge, seeing what Lucifer was up to and then just powering hard. Lucifer's build was just bleh.
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Lucifer should've just expo'd and took the islands. What a fucking idiot. What was he thinking, seriously?
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Did Lucifer seriously think Thezerg was running 1-base or something? -_-
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This was such a painful morning... Lucifer is just terrible.
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On January 12 2009 20:30 LimitlessSky wrote:
YAY AN SKT1 ZERG WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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gg alrdy? swt! my stream is kinda behind, at least for like, 5mins? lol
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blah die lucifer what kind of strat were you doing?
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good day, pretty good day
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Man it's hard to be a KTF fan
Was really looking forward to seeing Luxury
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switching to OGN vs Strars... That was soo depressing... Yet again...
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free vs leta ace ~~!
tune in ogn vs stars!
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 12 2009 06:13 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 06:11 jwd241224 wrote:
BeSt vs. Zerg? Again? T___T
owait, it's Haran. BeSt has this easily.
This lineup is insanely good for KTF, though. Let's hope Bisu can own Flash yet again. did you drop your faith when you failed at killing me in tl vs sc2gg 2v2 showmatch? 3-0 ez!!
see?
On January 12 2009 04:50 thunk wrote:
The SKT1 Coach should make line ups randomly. He should literally take Best, Bisu, a Terran and a Zerg and roll a dice to decide what map they're going play. He gets the worst matchups every single time, it's ridiculous.
orly
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On January 12 2009 01:39 jello_biafra wrote:
Why does everyone expect FlaSh to beat Bisu? :o
My predictions:
Best > Haran
Bisu > FlaSh
TheZerg > Lucifer
SKT T1 win 3-0!
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SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
thezerg took a risk with those 2 exps, but it paid off
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I predicted 3-0 for SKT! =) Gogo SK, lets see some Boxer soon ;P
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On January 12 2009 20:34 Carnac wrote:
thezerg took a risk with those 2 exps, but it paid off
I was surprised Lucifer didn't scout it. He had his corsair in thezerg's base for so long and didn't think it was weird that thezerg had nothing in his base. I thought progamers are suppose to be really good when it comes to realizing whether something's missing or not. I guess that only applies to top progamers.
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On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan.
Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
lol
my ass
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
actually that might just be the most stupid post I have read this year so far
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On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
Haha hide from the flames, gogo quickly
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On January 12 2009 10:40 fearus wrote:>
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On January 12 2009 20:38 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:34 Carnac wrote:
thezerg took a risk with those 2 exps, but it paid off I was surprised Lucifer didn't scout it. He had his corsair in thezerg's base for so long and didn't think it was weird that thezerg had nothing in his base. I thought progamers are suppose to be really good when it comes to realizing whether something's missing or not. I guess that only applies to top progamers.
Yea, mutas didnt come our for soooo long. It was pretty obvious there was a hidden expo somewhere.
The Zerg double expanded and pumped drones which takes quite a while and still lucifer still thought he was one base??
On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
haha, funniest post ive read for a while.
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young flash looks so much like a confused fish keke
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So much aniticipation and KTF blows it again. It is so hard to be KTF fan.
I wish they played Tempest. Even if he loses he shows better play than Lucifer these days. And I am still impressed with his 'super-goon" from the game against Light.
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On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
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On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
Epic Fail *facepalm*
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9070 Posts
On January 12 2009 20:39 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2009 20:33 HaXxorIzed wrote:
SKT1 Zerg winning to close it out, Bisu thrashing Flash in a way people can't possibly defend as anything but being the better player on the day ... Best surviving. Not a bad moment for an SKT1 fan. Well Bisu got the early advantage with 14 nexus. Pretty much a BO win.
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Glad the SKT1 Coaches realized they had thezerg in their team.
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#1 Terran hater
Member of the Bisu-for-bonjwa committee
#1 Kim Taek Yong Fan <3
I guess you guys are all impartial judges.
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Korea (South)922 Posts
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well, Bisu, did build a 5th probe with his first 50 minerals...if you ask me I'd say that's a pretty imba BO right there
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Osaka27149 Posts
Yeah we get it, enough with the meme photos -_-
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Yeah, TL /= 4chan plz =)
On the other hand, yay Bisu, can't wait to see it.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
I think I'm in love:
edit: dancing to the groove, huh
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lol OP you lost 50..... shouldve lost 100. XD
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On January 12 2009 21:17 Carnac wrote:I think I'm in love
I KNOW IM IN LOVE
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On January 12 2009 06:52 isbunk wrote:
bisu > flash
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that boxer - oov photo is just.....<3
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On January 12 2009 21:01 AltaiR_ wrote:plz just stop talking...
wait, blistered fingers?
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If only Bisu would not be so arrogant against no names ... =\ Why OSL, why?!
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protossuuuuu
bisuuuu
watch bisu vs flash
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On January 12 2009 21:18 Raithed wrote:
lol OP you lost 50..... shouldve lost 100. XD
Fana felt bad about taking my money because he said he wouldnt pay me so i split the difference and payed him that
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llllllllllllllol. KTF sucks so bad. Hopefully the all kill round of proleague let's Lux and Flash shine...
And I haven't watched the game yet, but since when is 12nex vs a normal terran BO not an advantage? Medusa is a tough map for TvP and I definitely thought Flash probably was going to lose tonight. He barely won on the map when they played at GOM. Why over play this win Bisu fans ?
On a serious note ya gotta worry about Flash's ability to stay near the top recently. He loses to Jaedong consistently and seems to have a mental block versing him... maybe the same thing will happen with Bisu?
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yep its a good start for the toss, however flash made earlier armory and slower Ebay instead. Bisu had a nice strat using those early shuttles with the 4gate timing while adding 2 more bases. Well played bisu.
I would love it if flash anticipated the 12nex like he did vs stork on katrina and made doublerax, too bad medusa sux at proxying..
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On January 13 2009 00:19 Vasoline73 wrote:llllllllllllllol. KTF sucks so bad. Hopefully the all kill round of proleague let's Lux and Flash shine... And I haven't watched the game yet, but since when is 12nex vs a normal terran BO not an advantage? Medusa is a tough map for TvP and I definitely thought Flash probably was going to lose tonight. He barely won on the map when they played at GOM. Why over play this win Bisu fans ? On a serious note ya gotta worry about Flash's ability to stay near the top recently. He loses to Jaedong consistently and seems to have a mental block versing him... maybe the same thing will happen with Bisu?
Its like 14cc, when flash stops trying to go 2 fac 4 cc he'll start winning again, bisu knew he'd do the same build as the one in gom so he countered it pefectly with the 14nex and and quicker 4th
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9070 Posts
make no excuses about map balance, flash was undefeated on medusa before this game, certainly he feels very comfortable playing it
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On January 12 2009 19:59 GinNtoniC wrote:
This is not a good thing to post, but I just have to:
Serves you right, you turtling, coward, boring excuse for a player!
I guess you could show us better on a map that favours P so much right?
It was a great game and both gave their best so get lost with comments like this..
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god my predictions got owned .
Also these comments further my dislike for bisu fans... a little.
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what a day...what a dayy..
gj thezerg..my faith in you is renewed
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United States12607 Posts
Alright Thezerg! Way to go T1!
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NICE SKT1!!!!!!!! Hahaha
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Thezerg comes through right when fantasy prologue doesn't matter any more. LOL
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How can you not love SKT :o
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i do, Bisu/Boxer/Best ~_~ ... but mbc is like my old wife, can't let her down !
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noooo flash
so heartbreaking to b a KTF fan
gotta check out the vods... sounds like flash did an excellent defense against the dbl shuttle but bisu used perfect macro.....
edit: after reading some of the comment its funny how people complained before the game about if flash was gonna cheese OR turtle......
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Ughhh gotta wait probably forever for the vods to come up
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9070 Posts
On January 13 2009 05:48 Proposal wrote:Ughhh gotta wait probably forever for the vods to come up
just download the VOD from the torrents
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I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2009 07:05 gngfn wrote:
I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
Reasonable post. Take a look at the list of TvP winners on Medusa excluding Flash.
Azang > Rainbow (utterly meaningless, pretty much a B team game)
Mind > Yoongjoong (a much better player winning)
Upmagic > Much (interesting game where Much inexplicably tries to DT rush and does a terrible job defending)
Skyhigh > Best (the only dragon other than Bisu losing to Flash to lose a game on Medusa)
Nada > Anytime (I didn't see this game)
Now, you can turn it around and say that a lot of the Protoss winners were better players as well. But, I think one of the best ways to measure map imbalance is to take a look at the list of top players for each race and their records on the map.
Bisu 3-2, 3-0 against non-Flash
Stork 3-0
Best 0-1
Jangbi 3-0
Free 2-0
Kal 4-0
Flash 6-1
Mind 1-2
UpMagic 1-0
Skyhigh 1-1
Azang 1-0
Nada 1-1
Leta, Fantasy, Sea, Iris, ForGG, FBH, Hwasin 0-something
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Nice first post.
The only way Medusa could be worse for TvP is if they gave Terran a downwards ramp into their base like on Neo Requiem. :/
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9070 Posts
@ gngfn : I agree entirely with you post except for + Show Spoiler + think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
look at Desert Fox...or even Python. What about the new map Neo Harmony
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2009 07:05 gngfn wrote:
I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
Um. If this map is so incredibly bad TvP, why did the KTF coach choose to play Flash on it? Especially against a team such as SKT, with two of the best toss players in the world... Obviously Flash is (or at least was) comfortable with it, and thought he could win.
I really wish people would stop finding excuses for Flash each time he loses, he's a big boy, a great sc player, he can handle himself. Everybody loses games now and then, and there's nothing wrong with that. Moaning about it constantly is.
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United States12607 Posts
gngfn, I agree with pretty much everything you have to say about Medusa, but the argument that "Bisu fanboys should not praise Bisu for winning because this game was played on a P>T map" is invalid.
Medusa obviously helped Bisu win this set, but so did his near-flawless play. He came up with a build that countered Flash's style in GOM perfectly, and executed it with precision (the 3/3 on stasising moving vessels comes to mind).
Point being: the fact that Medusa is P>T doesn't mean that Bisu didn't play a brilliant game. You'll also notice that most of the Bisu fanboys in this thread (myself included) acknowledge Flash's skill and how it contributed to making this game an exciting one.
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I think you guys make some legit points for why Medusa favors P, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make it out to be, nor does it account for Bisu's victory.
The two biggest turning points of that game, i think most would agree:
-Bisu's 2 shuttle + goon attack
-Bisu winning the first big battle
That attack could have been done on most any map, and it was a very clever follow up to fast nexus, especially given Flash's predictable triple CC build. It was successful because Flash didn't expect it, not because of the map. The natural choke isn't really any wider than on most maps, and Bisu wasn't really able to abuse the cliff, in fact he lost both shuttles.
Bisu's victory in that first large battle was due to a couple things. He adapted to Flash being tank-heavy with a lot of zealots of his own, and a single zealot bomb took out the majority of the few vultures. Yes building a turret would have helped, but certainly Flash could have avoided losing as much as he did. Yes the middle being wide open helped, but can you name any maps where the terran can take a 4th base without making himself far more vunerable?
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LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 13 2009 09:44 Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
I am pretty convinced that the recent spat of T>Z imbalance has been almost exclusively due to imbalances in skill and strategy (rather than the maps). Mech gives Terrans a second lethal option in TvZ, and thus far no Zerg has shown the ability to consistently deflect this build - Zergs still haven't come close to "figuring out" how to handle mech from a modern macro Terran.
I urge you to look at the game lists on those maps (especially Andromeda) and find games you think the Zerg should have won, based on skill alone - you won't find many. Fantasy, Flash, Sea, fOrGG, Mind, Leta, even UpMagiC - we have so, so many Terrans showing S-class TvZ. Meanwhile, what are the Zergs doing? EffOrt shows promise, but he's been inconsistent at best. Luxury's ZvT has basically fallen off the face of the earth, he apparently has no ability to cope with mech. Jaedong is the lone glimmer of hope (his queen usage may help Zergs claw their way back into this MU), but even he was quite hit or miss towards the early half of this Proleague.
As someone who has watched nearly all of the TvZs on these maps recently, I can say with confidence that it's subpar Zerg play, not the maps themselves, that are leading to this Zerg funk. To me it just seems like since Terrans got better at deflecting 2- and 3- hatch muta with more conservative turret and MnM use/valkyries or gols, Zergs have had no answers in ZvT.
EDIT: here, take a look at the TvZ game list for Andromeda. It will give you a great idea of what I am talking about.
+ Show Spoiler [game list] +
Can you see any games the Terran "shouldn't" have won here? What I see is a whole slew of ridiculously top notch TvZ players. Sometimes they lose to other S-class Zergs (see Yarnc > Sea, Luxury > Mind) but the case is usually that they have inferior opponents, or equally strong opponents and play an excellent game (for example, Mind > Jaedong or Sea > Jaedong).
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I'll preface my post by declaring there's probably some bias here because I'm a SKT1 fan but IMO, Flash has more to blame on Bisu outplaying him and countering his strat flawlessly than the map itself. The biggest issue for TvP to me on Medusa is that the map looks like a very tempting turtle map due to the third expo and way too many terrans get read into that easily. To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
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On January 12 2009 15:18 thestool91 wrote:my predictions (for some reason, my predictions for ktf vs skt r nearly 100% right but im hoping im wrong this time :p) Best>Haran - best clearly is the favorite but i am not gonna lie, despite haran's record, i believe he still has solid play. dont doubt him. i wouldnt be surprised if haran won, but best is the greater chance in winning Bisu>Flash - flash has been literally raping all the non S-class gamers, but i still think he will lose to bisu. i get that feeling bisu's arbiters will crush flash. Thezerg>Lucifer - ok, during lucifer's beast win streak, i thought with his clever and unique style of playing (mass dark templar on katrina made me crap my pants) he would be the knew nal_ra. i was wrong after his win streak was followed by a ridiculous losing streak. i give the zerg the upper hand, mainly because i havent seen lucifer play at all recently. *if it goes to game 4 and 5 luxury<fantasty - i think luxury will fall to the mech build ACE: flash >bisu - flash will win
AW SHIT MY PREDICTIONS WERE RIGHT AGAIN. im really choked that ktf just got 3-0ed two times in a row
luxury must be pissed that he switched teams
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why were people jumping on that guy
double nex is a pretty solid build advantage vs anything but center rax
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On January 13 2009 10:13 KissBlade wrote:
I'll preface my post by declaring there's probably some bias here because I'm a SKT1 fan but IMO, Flash has more to blame on Bisu outplaying him and countering his strat flawlessly than the map itself. The biggest issue for TvP to me on Medusa is that the map looks like a very tempting turtle map due to the third expo and way too many terrans get read into that easily. To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
Skyhigh beat Best because Best was sloppy, not because vulture harassment is effective on this map. The wide open middle makes pushing very slow and difficult for Terran so harassment is a must. But any competent Protoss can simply put 2-3 goons early on, pylon wall, or get 2 cannons later on. Basically you either push, or turtle and try (unsuccessfully) to harass and throw away your vultures.
Flash could've re-established his base at 9 if only he didn't lose all his vultures trying to harass. But even weaker Protosses won't have problems defending against vulture harass on this map. The vultures get no support at all and Protoss can re-position their army whenever Terran moves out in an instant. It's a case of you're screwed if you do, and screwed if you don't. If you don't attempt to harass, you'll fall way behind in econ. If you do attempt to harass, you'll be low on vultures and get broken by zealots. They should at least let Terrans build in the middle of the map.
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On January 13 2009 09:59 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 09:44 Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
I am pretty convinced that the recent spat of T>Z imbalance has been almost exclusively due to imbalances in skill and strategy (rather than the maps). Mech gives Terrans a second lethal option in TvZ, and thus far no Zerg has shown the ability to consistently deflect this build - Zergs still haven't come close to "figuring out" how to handle mech from a modern macro Terran. I urge you to look at the game lists on those maps (especially Andromeda) and find games you think the Zerg should have won, based on skill alone - you won't find many. Fantasy, Flash, Sea, fOrGG, Mind, Leta, even UpMagiC - we have so, so many Terrans showing S-class TvZ. Meanwhile, what are the Zergs doing? EffOrt shows promise, but he's been inconsistent at best. Luxury's ZvT has basically fallen off the face of the earth, he apparently has no ability to cope with mech. Jaedong is the lone glimmer of hope (his queen usage may help Zergs claw their way back into this MU), but even he was quite hit or miss towards the early half of this Proleague. As someone who has watched nearly all of the TvZs on these maps recently, I can say with confidence that it's subpar Zerg play, not the maps themselves, that are leading to this Zerg funk. To me it just seems like since Terrans got better at deflecting 2- and 3- hatch muta with more conservative turret and MnM use/valkyries or gols, Zergs have had no answers in ZvT. EDIT: here, take a look at the TvZ game list for Andromeda. It will give you a great idea of what I am talking about. + Show Spoiler [game list] +Can you see any games the Terran "shouldn't" have won here? What I see is a whole slew of ridiculously top notch TvZ players. Sometimes they lose to other S-class Zergs (see Yarnc > Sea, Luxury > Mind) but the case is usually that they have inferior opponents, or equally strong opponents and play an excellent game (for example, Mind > Jaedong or Sea > Jaedong).
this post would only make sense if zergs suddenly start beating mech builds on these maps. Which wont happen. Theres plenty of good zergs around, watch the games where t goes mnm and gets handled. This is a new era of t>z and so far the answer to this doesnt exist. So all the speculation is pointless
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no part of that post made sense
zergs will start beating mech as soon as they get their heads out of their asses
terrans can still win with mnm
theres not plenty of good zergs. theres 2
its not an era of t>z, its a new build that hasnt been worked out yet
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United States1865 Posts
On January 13 2009 12:18 IdrA wrote:
no part of that post made sense
zergs will start beating mech as soon as they get their heads out of their asses
terrans can still win with mnm
theres not plenty of good zergs. theres 2
its not an era of t>z, its a new build that hasnt been worked out yet
Seems a bit hypocritical./suspect to make a ton of posts saying how difficult TvP is and then completely disregard any evidence that the same difficulty exists for ZvT.
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United States2186 Posts
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately.
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On January 13 2009 13:45 Ver wrote:
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately.
where do you even get your facts
savior didnt invent 3 hatch muta and 1 rax CC existed long before that
Jaedong just recently broke 1 rax cc with queens? damn man good luck with that write up, im not the one to read it for sure
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On January 13 2009 08:14 exeprime wrote:
Um. If this map is so incredibly bad TvP, why did the KTF coach choose to play Flash on it? Especially against a team such as SKT, with two of the best toss players in the world... Obviously Flash is (or at least was) comfortable with it, and thought he could win.
I really wish people would stop finding excuses for Flash each time he loses, he's a big boy, a great sc player, he can handle himself. Everybody loses games now and then, and there's nothing wrong with that. Moaning about it constantly is.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but KTF's coaching is some of the worst in the league. Their coach is like the anti-January--KTF starts with a matchup disadvantage far more often than they should, and KTF has done a downright awful job of leveraging their young, developing players into Proleague wins. They also managed to buy one of the former best Zerg players in the league and convert him into a mediocre wildcard who cannot be counted on to win ZvT or ZvZ (and, due to the aforementioned coaching issues, frequently draws ZvP, which at this point is practically an autoloss for Luxury).
I actually think Flash would be doing immensely better on many other teams. Take a look at Fantasy, a player with pretty average mechanics who came within one win of taking an OSL gold at a very young age due in large part to the combined efforts of his team and his coaches. If Flash had iloveoov thinking up builds for him, I'm quite sure he'd have another OSL/MSL finals appearance by now.
Also, I feel safe in assuming that the second part of your post wasn't directed at me for obvious reasons, but I rarely make excuses for Flash. I watched last season's GOM finals with utter disgust at how poorly he played, and in general I spend most of my time wishing Flash would improve his mnm/vessel mechanics so he could develop more firebathero-like TvZ instead of depending on mech. But if you believe that this game was somehow winnable for Flash given the immense library of VODs we have to draw upon of games played on Medusa, I'd like to hear your revolutionary TvP strategy that evens it up.
disciple wrote:
The map is imba, clearly...but dont get overexcited about that, if you check out TLPD you will find at least 3 maps with even more horrible PvT record... like Jim Raynor's Memory or smth like that, toss barely won any games there. I'm saying it just to replay your statement about the Dragons, because yes - map balance was always a huuge factor. I predict JD to start owning left and right just because of the new OSL and MSL... not that he is not good or smth but the new maps should really be a hand
look at Desert Fox...or even Python. What about the new map Neo Harmony
Neo Harmony is eminently playable TvP/PvT. There isn't nearly enough evidence there to claim the map is bad. Desert Fox was a godawful map, no argument there, but unlike Medusa it was pulled after only 31 games, and it was never used in Proleague. Python's balance looks bad from the stats, but I don't remember anyone complaining about it PvT except Nony--at the time, I'm pretty sure Python was widely considered a well-balanced map, and I remember lots of people comparing it to LT as a good map for balanced, standard play. I don't think there's any point in bringing up Jim Raynor's Memory, seeing as it's what, five years old now?
jwd241224 wrote:
Point being: the fact that Medusa is P>T doesn't mean that Bisu didn't play a brilliant game. You'll also notice that most of the Bisu fanboys in this thread (myself included) acknowledge Flash's skill and how it contributed to making this game an exciting one.
Bisu played well, but I think he's played many better PvTs in the past. The games that stand out in my mind in particular are some of those from his various series versus Hwasin and one or two from his series versus UpMagic before losing to Mind. His game against Flash on Destination was fantastic as well. I'm not denying that Bisu played effectively in this game or that his PvT has generally been excellent lately. I take issue only with the idea that his win here somehow reflects more than an understanding of how to beat Flash's build on a deeply flawed map and the macro ability to take advantage of his early 4 bases. To me, the most impressive thing either player did this game was Flash's defense of the shuttle harass. The game was decided the moment Bisu took those bases with Flash obviously in no position to threaten them for a long time.
LxRogue wrote:
I think you guys make some legit points for why Medusa favors P, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make it out to be, nor does it account for Bisu's victory.
The two biggest turning points of that game, i think most would agree:
-Bisu's 2 shuttle + goon attack
-Bisu winning the first big battle
That attack could have been done on most any map, and it was a very clever follow up to fast nexus, especially given Flash's predictable triple CC build. It was successful because Flash didn't expect it, not because of the map. The natural choke isn't really any wider than on most maps, and Bisu wasn't really able to abuse the cliff, in fact he lost both shuttles.
Bisu's victory in that first large battle was due to a couple things. He adapted to Flash being tank-heavy with a lot of zealots of his own, and a single zealot bomb took out the majority of the few vultures. Yes building a turret would have helped, but certainly Flash could have avoided losing as much as he did. Yes the middle being wide open helped, but can you name any maps where the terran can take a 4th base without making himself far more vunerable?
No, I think most would agree that the biggest turning point of that game was Bisu mass expanding while Flash was on one factory. Posts like this that analyze map balance on an individual game level always fail to account for the amount of history that influences play on any given map. It's like the four or five people in every thread about Byzantium who claim that Zerg players lose because they just keep doing that darn 2 hatch muta build. Zerg players use that build precisely because standard macro play has been shown not to work vP on Byzantium. Likewise, Flash did not play standard either in GOM or in this match because standard play inevitably leaves the Terran behind. Against Rock, that's no big deal. Against Bisu, Flash can't get away with that and he knows it.
Bisu's bulldog-type thing with the shuttle and goons would have been a wash in any other situation but the one Bisu was in. Bisu's entire gameplan revolved around being very aggressive early because his superior economy allowed him to sacrifice units with impunity and a 3/3 ball is scary even on Medusa. His decision-making was in this sense pretty similar to Jangbi's in his GOM game versus pepe on Neo Requiem, a map with similar base geometry issues; Jangbi went with an unusually aggressive early attack in that game that allowed him to snipe ~4 tanks even as he was taking his third, and he proceeded to go extremely zealot-heavy in the followup attack because he knew pepe would be switching some production time away from vultures to replenish his tank count. Bisu didn't even micro perfectly during the attack; others in this thread have noticed that he forgot about a couple of his dragoons, but it didn't matter. Ordinarily losing two shuttles and a bunch of zealots/dragoons for only a few tanks is a bad idea, but here it compounded Bisu's advantage because a) trading down is good when you're up that many bases and b) the dragoons attacking the front stopped mining for a long time and killed several SCVs. Basically, he delayed Flash enough to cement his macroeconomic advantage perfectly.
Taking a 4th is frequently difficult for Terran, but here's the difference. On Medusa, the 3rd at the min-only is frequently almost as costly in terms of turrets/tanks for the Terran to take as the 4th, whereas Protoss can take it with complete impunity. Second, Protoss can completely wall off every expansion on the map except the third base's nat. On the original Colosseum, where the 3rd and 4th are about equally safe for both races, TvP was balanced. Third, the Terran army depends upon extremely awkward positioning with no help from buildings or terrain to defend that 4th. The long tank column is begging to be flanked by mass zealots, which is what Bisu did, knowing he could easily remake his army after the zealots died to reduce tank numbers. More vultures might have helped, but I don't think so--tanks are extremely strong at 3-2, and the tank positioning on this map doesn't really allow for a strong front line of vultures that won't get zealot bombed or sniped by dragoons before the tanks can take enough shots. Furthermore, Flash had been using a lot of his vultures to attempt to harass and divert parts of Bisu's army to his expos, which I'm sure he felt was necessary once he realized how large Bisu's econ advantage was.
Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining
LOL a single-issue poster
Oh you edited some content into your post. I love how you come into every one of these threads to say "You think PvT is imbalanced? Well, what about TvZ?????" as though it makes sense for mapmakers to counteract TvZ imbalance by making maps where Protoss is autowin versus Terran. Seriously, what is the thought process here? Is it perhaps that you recognize that by and large there have not been many Zergs playing well lately, and there's almost no map type on which the likes of Kwanro and MuMyung wouldn't fail against good Terrans? Just a thought!
KissBlade wrote:
To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
Vultures are countered easily early-game by cannons and dragoons, which they absolutely cannot fight before upgrades come into effect, not to mention that a minimum number of tanks is usually required to defend shuttle/reaver play flying back and forth between the high and low ground. Best lost that game because he had sloppy control and made like one observer total and walked into a ridiculous number of mines, whereas Bisu had observers all over the map and calculated his zealot movement to clear out mines with minimal casualties. Calling reavers "a tax on multimanagement" as though they hurt the player using them is hilarious. I honestly don't know what else to say; I have never heard anyone respond to "reavers are good on this map" with "yeah but they require micro" as though that settles it.
Here's a question for you: why can't Mind, the Terran with probably the best mass vulture control, implement this strategy of yours on Medusa? He's used mass vult to great effect on other maps like Andromeda (vs Anytime) before. Mind is also one of the smartest players, well-known for coming up with studied strategies that perfectly suit the maps he's playing on. So where are the results?
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On January 13 2009 14:32 food wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 13:45 Ver wrote:
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately. where do you even get your facts savior didnt invent 3 hatch muta and 1 rax CC existed long before that Jaedong just recently broke 1 rax cc with queens? damn man good luck with that write up, im not the one to read it for sure
I think he ment savior style 3 hatch muta which is Savior style (the specific timing for when to get hive, how many lurks, evo's etc) and 1 rax cc existed shortly before that, but not as long as you make it seem. His queen comment was odd though.
Also no need to be a smug asshole, ver is a very good poster and the write up would be good, regardless of what your argument of 2 little statements is.
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100% agree with gngfn there. Only thing more unbelievable than how bad balanced TvP Medusa is are people who try to deny it.
Just look at two BO3s - Mind vs Kal in GOM and Leta vs BestGod in OSL. Both Terrans got crushed on Medusa but completely ouperformed their opponents on rest of the maps.
On January 13 2009 14:49 gngfn wrote:
Mind is also one of the smartest players, well-known for coming up with studied strategies that perfectly suit the maps he's playing on.
That was perfectly obvious in game 1 vs Kal on Neo Requiem. This map is also a total bitch in TvP, but Mind's BO worked great here. How come he wasn't able to think out anything on Medusa? Maybe there isn't anything to think out in the first place...
Leta vs BestGod is selfexplanatory. In his last ten games, BestGod won only against go.go (who is terrible vs P) and against Leta on Medusa.
But what really drives me crazy isn't the fact that Medusa is such a shitty map. Even the best mapmaker can do a terrible map once in a while. But why the hell is Medusa used over and over again? In Proleague, in GOM, in current OSL, in last MSL. Why? Why haven't anybody made Medusa 1.1 already and tried to fix same balance problems?
Do people expect Terrans will go M&M and Battlecruisers there or what?
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KTF should use their money to buy another team ace for R3. Flash can't 4-0 every match and Luxury can't zvp.
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Dont want to blame it on maps but it would be nice if center for medusa was buildable.
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On January 13 2009 12:31 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 12:18 IdrA wrote:
no part of that post made sense
zergs will start beating mech as soon as they get their heads out of their asses
terrans can still win with mnm
theres not plenty of good zergs. theres 2
its not an era of t>z, its a new build that hasnt been worked out yet Seems a bit hypocritical./suspect to make a ton of posts saying how difficult TvP is and then completely disregard any evidence that the same difficulty exists for ZvT.
indeed it would
thats why i didnt disregard evidence, i pointed out that the 'evidence' he was referencing was invalid.
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Do any of you really know what you are talking about or do you like big text walls?
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Losing PvT on Medusa is a shame. Nearly impossible to lose.
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On January 13 2009 21:52 Zoler wrote:
Losing PvT on Medusa is a shame. Nearly impossible to lose.
shut the f...
Retarted statement really.
Is the map really that imbalanced ? To me it seems more like bisu has figured out how to beat flahs strategy: Try to harrass from the beginning on and trade units. Even if you lose more units thant the Terran it wont matter as long as u keep him quite low on units, too. In the meantime you take the map while trading units until u have massive gateways and can produce many groups of units fast...
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and what i forgot: Bisus play recently. vs Terran and especially those games vs flash where in my opinion just starcraft on almost another level..
quite pushing the game.. I think this is pretty close to what we can call perfect play..
I dont think any big improvements are possible when i look at these games..
really.. Bisu just played great..
Id say the map was the least deciding factor.. and if it played a bigger role
let me assure u: Not as big as many flash fans here want it to be..
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Why is Bisu such a fucking pimp?
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rofl at everyone trying to downplay the map. And others completely ignoring the map imbalance and just talking about ZvT.
Yeah because TvZ is "imba" that means Flash losing to Bisu on an imbalanced TvP map makes Bisu that much more pimp. The people posting about why Medusa is imbalanced actually give sound arguments for why the map sucks ass... the people ignoring the map balance just talk about ZvT and how perfect Bisu played.
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It's just retarted to blame the map. I'm 100% sure there is no map which has such a big impact on any match up right now, that if u A) come up with the perfect strategy/ counter B) Play as close to perfect as possible C) your opponent doesnt play like a god .. cant win.
Bisu played so good. It's not like the map was the main factor for his win. It just was not.
And I just want people to accept this:
Additionally: How long did people blame many many maps on PvZ being so horribly hard for the P ?
Until Bisu came up and revolutionized this match up thats what the majority did..
Dont get too fast on calling a map horribly imbalanced just because the first few games ( under 50 games ) are showing a certrain trend..
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[ ]flash lost because he didnt practice
[ ]flash lost because he had fever
[ ]flash lost because medusa is imba (despite he beat bisu twice on it)
[x]flash lost because bisu played better
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On January 13 2009 21:52 Zoler wrote:
Losing PvT on Medusa is a shame. Nearly impossible to lose.
Q_Q Gives horrid PvT players like me a chance. Shame I don't ever play this map, I must start! :-D
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On January 14 2009 02:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
[ ]flash lost because he didnt practice
[ ]flash lost because he had fever
[ ]flash lost because medusa is imba (despite he beat bisu twice on it)
[x]flash lost because bisu played better
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On January 14 2009 02:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
[ ]flash lost because he didnt practice
[ ]flash lost because he had fever
[ ]flash lost because medusa is imba (despite he beat bisu twice on it)
[x]flash lost because bisu played better
agreed, but that one time where he beat Bisu was through a backdoor cheese which will only work once.
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On January 14 2009 02:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
[ ]flash lost because he didnt practice
[ ]flash lost because he had fever
[ ]flash lost because medusa is imba (despite he beat bisu twice on it)
[x]flash lost because bisu was protoss
agreed, P >>>>>>> T >>>>>> Z
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This made me lol:
Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win.
And then in the very next paragraph:
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers.
I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win?
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On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Show nested quote +Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Show nested quote +Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win?
can do "almost" anything not anything
and it was a combination of both significant map imbalance and bisu's phenomenal play, flash defended superbly against bisus dual shuttle play
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....
ktf willingly sent flash out on medusa. they must have felt comfortable with the disadvantages of the map.
who knows what the fuck will happen if they meet again on a different map, but from their last 4 games it's pretty clear that bisu is just playing the matchup better right now.
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On January 14 2009 07:56 dongfeng wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? can do "almost" anything not anything and it was a combination of both significant map imbalance and bisu's phenomenal play, flash defended superbly against bisus dual shuttle play
Today I watched the vsP matches of Flash on medusa:
first I watched the bisu ones.. good, close games
then watched rock#1 omg he is bad.
rock#2 it was similar tactic to bisu's but pathetic.. he tried to bulldog while flash was taking his 3rd base but he led his shuttle into two turrets right away. this caused physical pain and open wounds on my face.
then shangho and his fast carriers.. lol just lol. This game is the biggest rape ever. Basically, Flash lost about 5 units in a 20 minutes long match.
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On January 14 2009 07:56 dongfeng wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? can do "almost" anything not anything and it was a combination of both significant map imbalance and bisu's phenomenal play, flash defended superbly against bisus dual shuttle play
Apparently "almost anything" is defined as "Something that isn't 1.) vulnerable to Bunker Rush, 2.) 2base Carriers, 3.) DT opening, 4.) 1gate robo reaver, 5.) 1gate fast expo into bulldog (rock), or 6.) mostly standard play". Okay, I got it.
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So just 2 gate proxy in the middle. Wait...
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I've never played on Medusa, but just by watching the games, it looks like the "imbalance" in PvT is mainly that since it's a 3-player map, if it goes into later game, it's the P will probably take the last expo location if both have turtled.
As a P player, I don't mind that
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On January 14 2009 08:16 traced wrote:
....
ktf willingly sent flash out on medusa. they must have felt comfortable with the disadvantages of the map.
who knows what the fuck will happen if they meet again on a different map, but from their last 4 games it's pretty clear that bisu is just playing the matchup better right now.
YES
Flash obviously thought he could win against a P as the opponent would probably send out.
Bisu came out, either with a strategy flash hadn't seen in practice, or just played better than anything flash had seen, but make no mistake flash or ktf or someone was sure he could win on this map
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Disclaimer: I ACTUALLY BELIEVE BISU IS PLAYING BETTER STARCRAFT THAN FLASH RIGHT NOW.
So please stop cheaply avoiding reasonable arguments by saying that people complain about Medusa just because they are Flash fanboys, ok? It makes everybody in this thread look dumber than he really is.
On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Show nested quote +Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Show nested quote +Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win?
Sentenal, this kind of assholish arguing isn't helping anybody. It's quite clear that he meant "anything" in sence "anything reasonable". Do you really need to spell out that it doesn't include things like rushing with your initial 4 probes and such? The fact that totally inferior players like Rock or Sangho lost to Flash (one of the best Terran ever) doesn't imply a shit about balance. Nor does the fact that skilled player lost to unscouted well played cheese. You should look at games played between players of similar level which didn't end in first 5 minutes.
Please, could anybody react at the Kal - Mind and Leta - BestGod series and still act like Medusa is a balanced map?
Or could ANYBODY from Medusa-supporters give any reasonable arguments why Medusa isn't imba? Aside from "ur just flash fanboy so ur bitching about his lost lol".
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On January 14 2009 12:07 adelarge wrote:Disclaimer: I ACTUALLY BELIEVE BISU IS PLAYING BETTER STARCRAFT THAN FLASH RIGHT NOW. So please stop cheaply avoiding reasonable arguments by saying that people complain about Medusa just because they are Flash fanboys, ok? It makes everybody in this thread look dumber than he really is. Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 07:40 Sentenal wrote:This made me lol: Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. And then in the very next paragraph: Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. I thought the Protoss could do anything on the map and still win? Sentenal, this kind of assholish arguing isn't helping anybody. It's quite clear that he meant "anything" in sence "anything reasonable". Do you really need to spell out that it doesn't include things like rushing with your initial 4 probes and such? The fact that totally inferior players like Rock or Sangho lost to Flash (one of the best Terran ever) doesn't imply a shit about balance. Nor does the fact that skilled player lost to unscouted well played cheese. You should look at games played between players of similar level which didn't end in first 5 minutes. Please, could anybody react at the Kal - Mind and Leta - BestGod series and still act like Medusa is a balanced map? Or could ANYBODY from Medusa-supporters give any reasonable arguments why Medusa isn't imba? Aside from "ur just flash fanboy so ur bitching about his lost lol".
So apparently, he can exaggerate something to the extreme to prove his point, but I can't exaggerate it to the opposite extreme to disprove it?
The map is imbalanced, but it isn't so imbalanced that a Protoss player can do almost anything and still win. Probe rushing is a whole lot different than something like a DT rush or 2base carriers. If he wanted to say that if the Protoss plays standard, he has a great chance to win the game, that is one thing, but to say a Protoss could pull shit out of their ass and still win is something entirely different.
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On January 14 2009 12:15 Sentenal wrote:
So apparently, he can exaggerate something to the extreme to prove his point, but I can't exaggerate it to the opposite extreme to disprove it?
The map is imbalanced, but it isn't so imbalanced that a Protoss player can do almost anything and still win. Probe rushing is a whole lot different than something like a DT rush or 2base carriers. If he wanted to say that if the Protoss plays standard, he has a great chance to win the game, that is one thing, but to say a Protoss could pull shit out of their ass and still win is something entirely different.
Fine then. It looked to me that you took just one small thing from his long post and try to disregard it as a whole, despite there were imho some really good arguments.
On January 14 2009 11:53 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2009 08:16 traced wrote:
....
ktf willingly sent flash out on medusa. they must have felt comfortable with the disadvantages of the map.
who knows what the fuck will happen if they meet again on a different map, but from their last 4 games it's pretty clear that bisu is just playing the matchup better right now. YES Flash obviously thought he could win against a P as the opponent would probably send out. Bisu came out, either with a strategy flash hadn't seen in practice, or just played better than anything flash had seen, but make no mistake flash or ktf or someone was sure he could win on this map
Flash had to play in OSL, GOM and Proleague in recent days. Medusa is the only map which is in all three leagues. He clearly has to practice on it a lot, being it imbalanced or not. Maybe KTF coach think it would be enough (it wouldn't be his first questionable decision)...
On a side note - does anybody know who are Flash toss practice partners now? It would be very easy to see why were in KTF confident in his play on Medusa if he plays only Lucifer and like :/.
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