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I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2009 07:05 gngfn wrote:
I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
Reasonable post. Take a look at the list of TvP winners on Medusa excluding Flash.
Azang > Rainbow (utterly meaningless, pretty much a B team game)
Mind > Yoongjoong (a much better player winning)
Upmagic > Much (interesting game where Much inexplicably tries to DT rush and does a terrible job defending)
Skyhigh > Best (the only dragon other than Bisu losing to Flash to lose a game on Medusa)
Nada > Anytime (I didn't see this game)
Now, you can turn it around and say that a lot of the Protoss winners were better players as well. But, I think one of the best ways to measure map imbalance is to take a look at the list of top players for each race and their records on the map.
Bisu 3-2, 3-0 against non-Flash
Stork 3-0
Best 0-1
Jangbi 3-0
Free 2-0
Kal 4-0
Flash 6-1
Mind 1-2
UpMagic 1-0
Skyhigh 1-1
Azang 1-0
Nada 1-1
Leta, Fantasy, Sea, Iris, ForGG, FBH, Hwasin 0-something
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Nice first post.
The only way Medusa could be worse for TvP is if they gave Terran a downwards ramp into their base like on Neo Requiem. :/
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9070 Posts
@ gngfn : I agree entirely with you post except for + Show Spoiler + think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
look at Desert Fox...or even Python. What about the new map Neo Harmony
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 13 2009 07:05 gngfn wrote:
I registered just to post this--a testament to how I feel about this map, I guess.
Medusa might be the most BS map TvP of all time. I love how there are people in this thread posting about how Terrans need to "reinvent" TvP on this map. Because, you know, there are Terran builds that can somehow deal with wide-open nats, drop heaven bases with a long high ground cliff for twice the reaver harass fun, an unbuildable, open center, an in-base min-only that is vulnerable to reavers but not to anything Terran might drop, and expansions that Protoss can wall off with pylons they were going to make anyway to completely shut down all vulture harrassment. Mind (1-2) can't do it. Fantasy (0-1) can't do it. ForGG (0-2) can't do it. Sea (0-2) can't do it. Everyone's new favorite Terran Leta (0-1) can't do it. As long as I'm just going down the list of Terrans by ELO, I guess I'll mention that Iris and Hwasin (0-3 combined) can't do it either. And since Bisu had already seen Flash's effort at such a build in GOM, he chose the easy, obvious counter (take 3 bases while Flash is still sitting and macroing off one factory), so now Flash can't do it.
Note that this is not the Katrina situation, where a particular Protoss build dominated all Terran efforts to counter it until Flash came up with a specific counter to that specific build. Medusa doesn't encourage two-base carriers to the exclusion of every other build due to an unusual aspect of map geometry. Medusa has so many different elements combining to make TvP almost impossible that Protoss can do almost anything on the map and still win. Watch Kal vs. Mind for an example of this. Kal screws around, gets carriers, loses all the carriers to goliaths for no reason, and still somehow wins the game because trying to prevent Protoss from being several bases ahead of you on Medusa is like trying to tie a fisherman's knot with your teeth.
Before the TLPD crew starts quoting Flash's amazing 6-0 record on the map prior to this game, maybe you should take into account that of those six wins, one was a bunker rush cheese against Bisu, two were against Rock, one was against Jaehoon, who attempted some kind of inexplicable DT opening, and one was versus SangHo, who went two-base carriers. Against Flash. Yeah. So that leaves the match against Bisu in GOM, where Flash's build might as well have been cheese in the sense that, as this game demonstrated, it only worked because Bisu didn't know it was coming.
Medusa is the closest thing to unwinnable TvP. Think about that a little, maybe even try actually watching the games that have been played on the map before you crown Bisu King Protoss and fall all over yourselves gushing about how beautiful his play was on a map on which not one Terran has found a consistent way to win against opponents who aren't total chumps.
I won't be watching TvP on Medusa at all anymore after this. It's a complete waste of time; the final credible Terran effort to overcome the map disadvantage with standard play has failed. It's an utter embarrassment that the map is apparently slated to be used in Round 3 as well and an obvious demonstration of the fact that OGN and MBC don't care about map balance at all, only how many fans they can bring in by artificially inflating the records of the so-called "Dragons."
As a random aside, would it be possible to add some kind of "Matchup ELO" field to TLPD for maps? In other words, something like the expected ELO required for a game to be 50-50 in a given matchup versus a 2000-rated opponent. Simply quoting win percentages doesn't really give a complete picture when you have stuff like Azang vs. Rainbow adding noise to the stats. But I don't really know the math behind how ELO is calculated to begin with, so maybe it's not feasible.
Um. If this map is so incredibly bad TvP, why did the KTF coach choose to play Flash on it? Especially against a team such as SKT, with two of the best toss players in the world... Obviously Flash is (or at least was) comfortable with it, and thought he could win.
I really wish people would stop finding excuses for Flash each time he loses, he's a big boy, a great sc player, he can handle himself. Everybody loses games now and then, and there's nothing wrong with that. Moaning about it constantly is.
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United States12607 Posts
gngfn, I agree with pretty much everything you have to say about Medusa, but the argument that "Bisu fanboys should not praise Bisu for winning because this game was played on a P>T map" is invalid.
Medusa obviously helped Bisu win this set, but so did his near-flawless play. He came up with a build that countered Flash's style in GOM perfectly, and executed it with precision (the 3/3 on stasising moving vessels comes to mind).
Point being: the fact that Medusa is P>T doesn't mean that Bisu didn't play a brilliant game. You'll also notice that most of the Bisu fanboys in this thread (myself included) acknowledge Flash's skill and how it contributed to making this game an exciting one.
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I think you guys make some legit points for why Medusa favors P, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make it out to be, nor does it account for Bisu's victory.
The two biggest turning points of that game, i think most would agree:
-Bisu's 2 shuttle + goon attack
-Bisu winning the first big battle
That attack could have been done on most any map, and it was a very clever follow up to fast nexus, especially given Flash's predictable triple CC build. It was successful because Flash didn't expect it, not because of the map. The natural choke isn't really any wider than on most maps, and Bisu wasn't really able to abuse the cliff, in fact he lost both shuttles.
Bisu's victory in that first large battle was due to a couple things. He adapted to Flash being tank-heavy with a lot of zealots of his own, and a single zealot bomb took out the majority of the few vultures. Yes building a turret would have helped, but certainly Flash could have avoided losing as much as he did. Yes the middle being wide open helped, but can you name any maps where the terran can take a 4th base without making himself far more vunerable?
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LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
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United States12607 Posts
On January 13 2009 09:44 Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
I am pretty convinced that the recent spat of T>Z imbalance has been almost exclusively due to imbalances in skill and strategy (rather than the maps). Mech gives Terrans a second lethal option in TvZ, and thus far no Zerg has shown the ability to consistently deflect this build - Zergs still haven't come close to "figuring out" how to handle mech from a modern macro Terran.
I urge you to look at the game lists on those maps (especially Andromeda) and find games you think the Zerg should have won, based on skill alone - you won't find many. Fantasy, Flash, Sea, fOrGG, Mind, Leta, even UpMagiC - we have so, so many Terrans showing S-class TvZ. Meanwhile, what are the Zergs doing? EffOrt shows promise, but he's been inconsistent at best. Luxury's ZvT has basically fallen off the face of the earth, he apparently has no ability to cope with mech. Jaedong is the lone glimmer of hope (his queen usage may help Zergs claw their way back into this MU), but even he was quite hit or miss towards the early half of this Proleague.
As someone who has watched nearly all of the TvZs on these maps recently, I can say with confidence that it's subpar Zerg play, not the maps themselves, that are leading to this Zerg funk. To me it just seems like since Terrans got better at deflecting 2- and 3- hatch muta with more conservative turret and MnM use/valkyries or gols, Zergs have had no answers in ZvT.
EDIT: here, take a look at the TvZ game list for Andromeda. It will give you a great idea of what I am talking about.
+ Show Spoiler [game list] +
Can you see any games the Terran "shouldn't" have won here? What I see is a whole slew of ridiculously top notch TvZ players. Sometimes they lose to other S-class Zergs (see Yarnc > Sea, Luxury > Mind) but the case is usually that they have inferior opponents, or equally strong opponents and play an excellent game (for example, Mind > Jaedong or Sea > Jaedong).
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I'll preface my post by declaring there's probably some bias here because I'm a SKT1 fan but IMO, Flash has more to blame on Bisu outplaying him and countering his strat flawlessly than the map itself. The biggest issue for TvP to me on Medusa is that the map looks like a very tempting turtle map due to the third expo and way too many terrans get read into that easily. To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
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On January 12 2009 15:18 thestool91 wrote:my predictions (for some reason, my predictions for ktf vs skt r nearly 100% right but im hoping im wrong this time :p) Best>Haran - best clearly is the favorite but i am not gonna lie, despite haran's record, i believe he still has solid play. dont doubt him. i wouldnt be surprised if haran won, but best is the greater chance in winning Bisu>Flash - flash has been literally raping all the non S-class gamers, but i still think he will lose to bisu. i get that feeling bisu's arbiters will crush flash. Thezerg>Lucifer - ok, during lucifer's beast win streak, i thought with his clever and unique style of playing (mass dark templar on katrina made me crap my pants) he would be the knew nal_ra. i was wrong after his win streak was followed by a ridiculous losing streak. i give the zerg the upper hand, mainly because i havent seen lucifer play at all recently. *if it goes to game 4 and 5 luxury<fantasty - i think luxury will fall to the mech build  ACE: flash >bisu - flash will win
AW SHIT MY PREDICTIONS WERE RIGHT AGAIN. im really choked that ktf just got 3-0ed two times in a row
luxury must be pissed that he switched teams
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why were people jumping on that guy
double nex is a pretty solid build advantage vs anything but center rax
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On January 13 2009 10:13 KissBlade wrote:
I'll preface my post by declaring there's probably some bias here because I'm a SKT1 fan but IMO, Flash has more to blame on Bisu outplaying him and countering his strat flawlessly than the map itself. The biggest issue for TvP to me on Medusa is that the map looks like a very tempting turtle map due to the third expo and way too many terrans get read into that easily. To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
Skyhigh beat Best because Best was sloppy, not because vulture harassment is effective on this map. The wide open middle makes pushing very slow and difficult for Terran so harassment is a must. But any competent Protoss can simply put 2-3 goons early on, pylon wall, or get 2 cannons later on. Basically you either push, or turtle and try (unsuccessfully) to harass and throw away your vultures.
Flash could've re-established his base at 9 if only he didn't lose all his vultures trying to harass. But even weaker Protosses won't have problems defending against vulture harass on this map. The vultures get no support at all and Protoss can re-position their army whenever Terran moves out in an instant. It's a case of you're screwed if you do, and screwed if you don't. If you don't attempt to harass, you'll fall way behind in econ. If you do attempt to harass, you'll be low on vultures and get broken by zealots. They should at least let Terrans build in the middle of the map.
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On January 13 2009 09:59 jwd241224 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 09:44 Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining about TvP on Medusa.
Why dont you look at ZvT??
Half the maps Terran has a massive advantage over Zerg. Medusa is considered Z>T buts its only 17-13 in favor of Zerg.
Andromeda 24-12
Destination 25-11
Rush Hour 3 33-20 (most of zergs wins were from 2006 also)
TvP is the most balanced matchup in Starcraft statistically so stop complaining.
I am pretty convinced that the recent spat of T>Z imbalance has been almost exclusively due to imbalances in skill and strategy (rather than the maps). Mech gives Terrans a second lethal option in TvZ, and thus far no Zerg has shown the ability to consistently deflect this build - Zergs still haven't come close to "figuring out" how to handle mech from a modern macro Terran. I urge you to look at the game lists on those maps (especially Andromeda) and find games you think the Zerg should have won, based on skill alone - you won't find many. Fantasy, Flash, Sea, fOrGG, Mind, Leta, even UpMagiC - we have so, so many Terrans showing S-class TvZ. Meanwhile, what are the Zergs doing? EffOrt shows promise, but he's been inconsistent at best. Luxury's ZvT has basically fallen off the face of the earth, he apparently has no ability to cope with mech. Jaedong is the lone glimmer of hope (his queen usage may help Zergs claw their way back into this MU), but even he was quite hit or miss towards the early half of this Proleague. As someone who has watched nearly all of the TvZs on these maps recently, I can say with confidence that it's subpar Zerg play, not the maps themselves, that are leading to this Zerg funk. To me it just seems like since Terrans got better at deflecting 2- and 3- hatch muta with more conservative turret and MnM use/valkyries or gols, Zergs have had no answers in ZvT. EDIT: here, take a look at the TvZ game list for Andromeda. It will give you a great idea of what I am talking about. + Show Spoiler [game list] +Can you see any games the Terran "shouldn't" have won here? What I see is a whole slew of ridiculously top notch TvZ players. Sometimes they lose to other S-class Zergs (see Yarnc > Sea, Luxury > Mind) but the case is usually that they have inferior opponents, or equally strong opponents and play an excellent game (for example, Mind > Jaedong or Sea > Jaedong).
this post would only make sense if zergs suddenly start beating mech builds on these maps. Which wont happen. Theres plenty of good zergs around, watch the games where t goes mnm and gets handled. This is a new era of t>z and so far the answer to this doesnt exist. So all the speculation is pointless
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no part of that post made sense
zergs will start beating mech as soon as they get their heads out of their asses
terrans can still win with mnm
theres not plenty of good zergs. theres 2
its not an era of t>z, its a new build that hasnt been worked out yet
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United States1865 Posts
On January 13 2009 12:18 IdrA wrote:
no part of that post made sense
zergs will start beating mech as soon as they get their heads out of their asses
terrans can still win with mnm
theres not plenty of good zergs. theres 2
its not an era of t>z, its a new build that hasnt been worked out yet
Seems a bit hypocritical./suspect to make a ton of posts saying how difficult TvP is and then completely disregard any evidence that the same difficulty exists for ZvT.
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United States2186 Posts
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately.
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On January 13 2009 13:45 Ver wrote:
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately.
where do you even get your facts
savior didnt invent 3 hatch muta and 1 rax CC existed long before that
Jaedong just recently broke 1 rax cc with queens? damn man good luck with that write up, im not the one to read it for sure
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On January 13 2009 08:14 exeprime wrote:
Um. If this map is so incredibly bad TvP, why did the KTF coach choose to play Flash on it? Especially against a team such as SKT, with two of the best toss players in the world... Obviously Flash is (or at least was) comfortable with it, and thought he could win.
I really wish people would stop finding excuses for Flash each time he loses, he's a big boy, a great sc player, he can handle himself. Everybody loses games now and then, and there's nothing wrong with that. Moaning about it constantly is.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but KTF's coaching is some of the worst in the league. Their coach is like the anti-January--KTF starts with a matchup disadvantage far more often than they should, and KTF has done a downright awful job of leveraging their young, developing players into Proleague wins. They also managed to buy one of the former best Zerg players in the league and convert him into a mediocre wildcard who cannot be counted on to win ZvT or ZvZ (and, due to the aforementioned coaching issues, frequently draws ZvP, which at this point is practically an autoloss for Luxury).
I actually think Flash would be doing immensely better on many other teams. Take a look at Fantasy, a player with pretty average mechanics who came within one win of taking an OSL gold at a very young age due in large part to the combined efforts of his team and his coaches. If Flash had iloveoov thinking up builds for him, I'm quite sure he'd have another OSL/MSL finals appearance by now.
Also, I feel safe in assuming that the second part of your post wasn't directed at me for obvious reasons, but I rarely make excuses for Flash. I watched last season's GOM finals with utter disgust at how poorly he played, and in general I spend most of my time wishing Flash would improve his mnm/vessel mechanics so he could develop more firebathero-like TvZ instead of depending on mech. But if you believe that this game was somehow winnable for Flash given the immense library of VODs we have to draw upon of games played on Medusa, I'd like to hear your revolutionary TvP strategy that evens it up.
disciple wrote:
The map is imba, clearly...but dont get overexcited about that, if you check out TLPD you will find at least 3 maps with even more horrible PvT record... like Jim Raynor's Memory or smth like that, toss barely won any games there. I'm saying it just to replay your statement about the Dragons, because yes - map balance was always a huuge factor. I predict JD to start owning left and right just because of the new OSL and MSL... not that he is not good or smth but the new maps should really be a hand
look at Desert Fox...or even Python. What about the new map Neo Harmony
Neo Harmony is eminently playable TvP/PvT. There isn't nearly enough evidence there to claim the map is bad. Desert Fox was a godawful map, no argument there, but unlike Medusa it was pulled after only 31 games, and it was never used in Proleague. Python's balance looks bad from the stats, but I don't remember anyone complaining about it PvT except Nony--at the time, I'm pretty sure Python was widely considered a well-balanced map, and I remember lots of people comparing it to LT as a good map for balanced, standard play. I don't think there's any point in bringing up Jim Raynor's Memory, seeing as it's what, five years old now?
jwd241224 wrote:
Point being: the fact that Medusa is P>T doesn't mean that Bisu didn't play a brilliant game. You'll also notice that most of the Bisu fanboys in this thread (myself included) acknowledge Flash's skill and how it contributed to making this game an exciting one.
Bisu played well, but I think he's played many better PvTs in the past. The games that stand out in my mind in particular are some of those from his various series versus Hwasin and one or two from his series versus UpMagic before losing to Mind. His game against Flash on Destination was fantastic as well. I'm not denying that Bisu played effectively in this game or that his PvT has generally been excellent lately. I take issue only with the idea that his win here somehow reflects more than an understanding of how to beat Flash's build on a deeply flawed map and the macro ability to take advantage of his early 4 bases. To me, the most impressive thing either player did this game was Flash's defense of the shuttle harass. The game was decided the moment Bisu took those bases with Flash obviously in no position to threaten them for a long time.
LxRogue wrote:
I think you guys make some legit points for why Medusa favors P, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make it out to be, nor does it account for Bisu's victory.
The two biggest turning points of that game, i think most would agree:
-Bisu's 2 shuttle + goon attack
-Bisu winning the first big battle
That attack could have been done on most any map, and it was a very clever follow up to fast nexus, especially given Flash's predictable triple CC build. It was successful because Flash didn't expect it, not because of the map. The natural choke isn't really any wider than on most maps, and Bisu wasn't really able to abuse the cliff, in fact he lost both shuttles.
Bisu's victory in that first large battle was due to a couple things. He adapted to Flash being tank-heavy with a lot of zealots of his own, and a single zealot bomb took out the majority of the few vultures. Yes building a turret would have helped, but certainly Flash could have avoided losing as much as he did. Yes the middle being wide open helped, but can you name any maps where the terran can take a 4th base without making himself far more vunerable?
No, I think most would agree that the biggest turning point of that game was Bisu mass expanding while Flash was on one factory. Posts like this that analyze map balance on an individual game level always fail to account for the amount of history that influences play on any given map. It's like the four or five people in every thread about Byzantium who claim that Zerg players lose because they just keep doing that darn 2 hatch muta build. Zerg players use that build precisely because standard macro play has been shown not to work vP on Byzantium. Likewise, Flash did not play standard either in GOM or in this match because standard play inevitably leaves the Terran behind. Against Rock, that's no big deal. Against Bisu, Flash can't get away with that and he knows it.
Bisu's bulldog-type thing with the shuttle and goons would have been a wash in any other situation but the one Bisu was in. Bisu's entire gameplan revolved around being very aggressive early because his superior economy allowed him to sacrifice units with impunity and a 3/3 ball is scary even on Medusa. His decision-making was in this sense pretty similar to Jangbi's in his GOM game versus pepe on Neo Requiem, a map with similar base geometry issues; Jangbi went with an unusually aggressive early attack in that game that allowed him to snipe ~4 tanks even as he was taking his third, and he proceeded to go extremely zealot-heavy in the followup attack because he knew pepe would be switching some production time away from vultures to replenish his tank count. Bisu didn't even micro perfectly during the attack; others in this thread have noticed that he forgot about a couple of his dragoons, but it didn't matter. Ordinarily losing two shuttles and a bunch of zealots/dragoons for only a few tanks is a bad idea, but here it compounded Bisu's advantage because a) trading down is good when you're up that many bases and b) the dragoons attacking the front stopped mining for a long time and killed several SCVs. Basically, he delayed Flash enough to cement his macroeconomic advantage perfectly.
Taking a 4th is frequently difficult for Terran, but here's the difference. On Medusa, the 3rd at the min-only is frequently almost as costly in terms of turrets/tanks for the Terran to take as the 4th, whereas Protoss can take it with complete impunity. Second, Protoss can completely wall off every expansion on the map except the third base's nat. On the original Colosseum, where the 3rd and 4th are about equally safe for both races, TvP was balanced. Third, the Terran army depends upon extremely awkward positioning with no help from buildings or terrain to defend that 4th. The long tank column is begging to be flanked by mass zealots, which is what Bisu did, knowing he could easily remake his army after the zealots died to reduce tank numbers. More vultures might have helped, but I don't think so--tanks are extremely strong at 3-2, and the tank positioning on this map doesn't really allow for a strong front line of vultures that won't get zealot bombed or sniped by dragoons before the tanks can take enough shots. Furthermore, Flash had been using a lot of his vultures to attempt to harass and divert parts of Bisu's army to his expos, which I'm sure he felt was necessary once he realized how large Bisu's econ advantage was.
Highways wrote:
LOL Terrans complaining
LOL a single-issue poster
Oh you edited some content into your post. I love how you come into every one of these threads to say "You think PvT is imbalanced? Well, what about TvZ?????" as though it makes sense for mapmakers to counteract TvZ imbalance by making maps where Protoss is autowin versus Terran. Seriously, what is the thought process here? Is it perhaps that you recognize that by and large there have not been many Zergs playing well lately, and there's almost no map type on which the likes of Kwanro and MuMyung wouldn't fail against good Terrans? Just a thought!
KissBlade wrote:
To me a wide open field and open natural means more aggressive vulture play. Open ground totally favors vultures because not only do they move better than any early toss units (before 1a2a3a macro toss kicks in) but the pylon wall investments to stop them only comes into play mid late game. Reaver drop heaven IMO is misleading, even to progamers, Reavers are still a huge investment and also a tax on multimanagement. As I said, the biggest downfall to terrans on this map seems to be that they're all sucked into defensive play. Skyhigh's play against Best really drives this point in. A flat out "keep him on the defense" strat by Skyhigh really knocked it home.
Vultures are countered easily early-game by cannons and dragoons, which they absolutely cannot fight before upgrades come into effect, not to mention that a minimum number of tanks is usually required to defend shuttle/reaver play flying back and forth between the high and low ground. Best lost that game because he had sloppy control and made like one observer total and walked into a ridiculous number of mines, whereas Bisu had observers all over the map and calculated his zealot movement to clear out mines with minimal casualties. Calling reavers "a tax on multimanagement" as though they hurt the player using them is hilarious. I honestly don't know what else to say; I have never heard anyone respond to "reavers are good on this map" with "yeah but they require micro" as though that settles it.
Here's a question for you: why can't Mind, the Terran with probably the best mass vulture control, implement this strategy of yours on Medusa? He's used mass vult to great effect on other maps like Andromeda (vs Anytime) before. Mind is also one of the smartest players, well-known for coming up with studied strategies that perfectly suit the maps he's playing on. So where are the results?
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On January 13 2009 14:32 food wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2009 13:45 Ver wrote:
No it makes perfect sense. When you look past the blindfolds of race prejudice and pride you can see that it's the innovations that really matter and determine race balance/imbalance. 1 rax CC has a slight advantage vs Savior style 3 hatch muta and only very recently has Jaedong broken that drought with queens. Zergs currently have no answer to mech, thus Terran should have a definite advantage. How long it will hold we can't say; for all we know Savior is finding another answer to shift the advantage back to Zerg against like he did 3 1/2 years ago with 3 hatch muta -> lurker -> hive.
If you want to complain about T>Z, blame iloveoov, not maps or race imbalance or any such garbage.
At the same time, you can hold iloveoov and his successor Flash accountable for saving the Terrans from oblivion TvP. Yes, it's that bad, and those two are just that important in preventing Terran from falling into nothing in TvP.
I'm doing a writeup on these issues soon enough. Flash played pretty poorly this game btw although Bisu did great, really turned the map to his advantage. But yes Medusa is one of the most imbalanced maps in history, although I do think Flash had a fair shot if it wasn't for that mine bomb in the first siege break. Bisu's mass shuttle play really paid off at that one moment and I have nothing for compliments on how well and smart he has been playing lately. where do you even get your facts savior didnt invent 3 hatch muta and 1 rax CC existed long before that Jaedong just recently broke 1 rax cc with queens? damn man good luck with that write up, im not the one to read it for sure
I think he ment savior style 3 hatch muta which is Savior style (the specific timing for when to get hive, how many lurks, evo's etc) and 1 rax cc existed shortly before that, but not as long as you make it seem. His queen comment was odd though.
Also no need to be a smug asshole, ver is a very good poster and the write up would be good, regardless of what your argument of 2 little statements is.
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