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On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
Hey, I like that line of thinking!
Most of mercury's zvp games feature good zvp players (yellow, jju, july, saferzerg) against bad pvz players (reach, rock, autumn, zeus). Sure, there are some exceptions, but that won't be an issue since andromeda has such anomalies as hyuk > free, type-b > stork (type-b's only zvp win ever), and hyvaa > jangbi.
Clearly mercury's statistical imbalance is merely due to repeated mismatches featuring zvp juggernauts against mediocre pvz players. I'm pleased to say that mercury is in fact balanced zvp!
Oh wait, you also had some crappy matchup analysis to go with it. I'm not sure how to even respond to the "min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases" thing. The min-only expansion most certainly does not favor protoss. It's not uncommon in pvz to have thousands of minerals in the bank with a two digit gas count, simply because protoss needs every drop of gas it can mine to win against a competent zerg. Quite a few tosses on andromeda don't even take the min-only expansion until a bit later and get a third gas as their second expansion simply because gas is that crucial.
What's advantageous for protoss is a fast third gas. However, an island is not the same at all. Going for the island that quickly tips off your reaver/sair strat to the zerg (and reaver/sair is the only way to do it unless you want to die), so any advantage is lost. Unfortunately andromeda is completely wide open in the center, so the only safe way for a protoss to grab a third gas IS by an island. The game that most reveals the imbalance is jaedong versus stork from the WCG Korea finals. Stork clearly wanted no part of a straight up game on that map, so he went for a desperate goon/reaver timing attack (without taking the min-only, how about that) which failed horribly because the open nature of andromeda allowed jaedong to surround and destroy without giving stork any place to retreat to.
Basically, andromeda is z > p, stop trying to fight it.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 18:54 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Hey, I like that line of thinking! Most of mercury's zvp games feature good zvp players (yellow, jju, july, saferzerg) against bad pvz players (reach, rock, autumn, zeus). Sure, there are some exceptions, but that won't be an issue since andromeda has such anomalies as hyuk > free, type-b > stork (type-b's only zvp win ever), and hyvaa > jangbi. Clearly mercury's statistical imbalance is merely due to repeated mismatches featuring zvp juggernauts against mediocre pvz players. I'm pleased to say that mercury is in fact balanced zvp! Oh wait, you also had some crappy matchup analysis to go with it. I'm not sure how to even respond to the "min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases" thing. The min-only expansion most certainly does not favor protoss. It's not uncommon in pvz to have thousands of minerals in the bank with a two digit gas count, simply because protoss needs every drop of gas it can mine to win against a competent zerg. Quite a few tosses on andromeda don't even take the min-only expansion until a bit later and get a third gas as their second expansion simply because gas is that crucial. What's advantageous for protoss is a fast third gas. However, an island is not the same at all. Going for the island that quickly tips off your reaver/sair strat to the zerg (and reaver/sair is the only way to do it unless you want to die), so any advantage is lost. Unfortunately andromeda is completely wide open in the center, so the only safe way for a protoss to grab a third gas IS by an island. The game that most reveals the imbalance is jaedong versus stork from the WCG Korea finals. Stork clearly wanted no part of a straight up game on that map, so he went for a desperate goon/reaver timing attack (without taking the min-only, how about that) which failed horribly because the open nature of andromeda allowed jaedong to surround and destroy without giving stork any place to retreat to. Basically, andromeda is z > p, stop trying to fight it.
In Avidkeystamper's world, anything is possible!
it's just that avidkeystamper gets stomped
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On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs.  Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously.
Wtf jaedong stop losing to people like sangho, han and roro
LOL
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OMG ppl,stop saying that Kal is mediocre protoss.
And Jaedong is good too. But he has not enough expirience in ZvP like Savior or July.
He only knows to do 1 hatch lurker+timing hydra+lurker mixed with Mutals. His long game zvp is not good !
GJ KAL
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wait, I don't get it, if z>p, then why is Jaedong losing to Kal? Experience?
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JAEDONG had too much advantage,he killed Kal's shuttle with reavers and after that Kal was able to won.Jaedong ---> noob 
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On November 15 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote:
Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me... One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage...
man what the hell i voted for you in liquibet
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Jaedong is sucking ZvP once more cos the Maestro be wanting his skill back.
Hehe.
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OMG,there so many noobs,with their opinions.I think a lot of them are C- on ICCUP.
TT so many noobsssssssssssssssss
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On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
Well you're trying to justify one unit versus three very late game units. Zerg actually has the advantage late game with equal bases because they can pump out all the units they loose with ease in a short span due to 3 larve (Sauron Zerg effect) I digress though, it is countered by mixing your armies around (See Julyzerg vs Best game 3 in the osl finals). Ultraling plus defieler play is a strict way to stand off against the protoss ball late game, but guardian/hydra sniping mid-late game means they have to either build more archons then reavers which makes dark swarm more deadly.
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Wow...can't believe Jaedong pissed off such a good lead. Nice job by Kal though, I shall check out the VOD when I can~
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I cant believe how many people underestimate Kal
In many many interviews, July has stated so many times
"Players like stork and best don't scare me. They are predictable and I am confident I can beat them in a fight + mindgame. However, players like Kal are different. They constantly fuck with your mind, making you angry and slip up because of your feelings. I really hate practicing against Kal, but I have to say he was one of the best protosses I played against"
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On November 15 2008 16:39 iLoveKTF wrote:
every Lecaf loss is always nice for us KTF fans... lol
very true, im very pleased lecaf lost
GO KTF
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What the hell is up with Jaedong's decision making lately? That's the 3rd time he's played well in pvz and then completely blown the game by making a crazy decision like turtling hard in game 3 vs free, hydra drop in game 3 vs stork or mass lurkers here.
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United States1655 Posts
I think Jaedong's poor decisions lately have been costing him important games. First there was the Guardians versus Free that did no damage, and now it was the morphing of a bunch of Lurkers for no reason versus Kal and then losing them all. Perhaps his loss of confidence in his play has also decreased his confidence in clutch moments.
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guardians vs free would have done damage if free hadn't seen them coming and built more corsairs... free's observer at the south of jaedong's main won him that game.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 21:48 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote:
Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me... One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage... man what the hell i voted for you in liquibet
lol I am going to trounce him, don't even doubt it.
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=P i was just giving you shit
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JD will climb back - he's a pure winner.
Kal is just a amazing Toss - I love his play when he plays with his head properly turned on.
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Guardian Ultra Hydra Defiler Chogoling Queen Scourge Drone obv.
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EPT
