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United States10328 Posts
kal > backho
calm < forgg
soo < jaedong
hwasin < lomo
ace:
calm > jaedong?? 
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Kal>Backho
Calm < forgg
soO< Jaedong
Hwasin < Lomo
1-3 :O
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Kal > Backho
Calm < ForGG
SoO < Jaedong
Hwasin = Lomo (not sure about this one)
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I'm cheering for STX. No one in Lecaf is looking so invincible anymore.
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Lecaf is monstrous and for good reason, their lineup is so deep they are like the lakers right now. They dont really have a lack of any specific race or type of player, though BackHo is hardly the Protoss that I wish for, he gets the job done. I want Soul to win this so bad but I just dont think its possible unless they get a nice ace match. I can easily see this going 2-2 but when Jaedong is put under pressure (especially when hes already played that day) he performs like a beast. 3-2 for lecaf imo.
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this will go ace. july < forgg lecaf 3-2
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If Anytime was still here, Lecaf would be imbalanced, 3:0 everytime. But: I predict
Kal<Backho (I'm always going to predict Backho to win, just so when he does, I'll be one of the few people to get it right).
Calm<fOrGG(This is fOrGG's oft-overlooked matchup. But his best)
Soo<Jaedong
Hwasin<Lomo(Sexy wraith battle?)
Calm<Jaedong(gogo sexy ZvZ)
Stx Soul 0 < Lecaf Oz 5
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Kal > Backho
Calm < fOrGG
SoO < Jaedong
Hwasin > lomo
Kal > fOrGG
YES i know thats a weird ace match but for some reason i think they are going to try and be unpredictible and try and not have a zvz final
Oh and everyone knows if Calm losses like it looks like he will Hwasin will win his game  there my reasoning
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On November 15 2008 02:08 SpiralArchitect wrote:
Lecaf is monstrous and for good reason, their lineup is so deep they are like the lakers right now. They dont really have a lack of any specific race or type of player, though BackHo is hardly the Protoss that I wish for, he gets the job done. I want Soul to win this so bad but I just dont think its possible unless they get a nice ace match. I can easily see this going 2-2 but when Jaedong is put under pressure (especially when hes already played that day) he performs like a beast. 3-2 for lecaf imo.
I feel Lecaf's fast start is directly attributed to Jaedong and ForGG's surprisingly quick departures from both starleagues. They're very stacked at Terran, but if Jaedong's off for any reason, they're looking at toSky and Backho for two games... not exactly "deep".
I think the Laker analogy best fit Samsung(yes, I am biased in this opinion), who are doing almost as well despite many of their top guns, especially Stork, taking time off for the starleagues. They probably have the best mix of star power and depth right now.
As for this series, my predictions
Kal - simply better player in mirror
ForGG - Don't believe I've seen TvZ on this map before, but ForGG vZ should be fine
Jaedong
Hwasin - I think he'll stop sucking
And Jaedong wins ace against whoever
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Kal
ForGG
Jaedong
Hwasin
Then Tossgirl beats Jaedong in ace match. Har har har~
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On November 15 2008 03:11 StalinRusH wrote:Kal > Backho Calm < fOrGG SoO < Jaedong Hwasin > lomo Kal > fOrGG YES i know thats a weird ace match but for some reason i think they are going to try and be unpredictible and try and not have a zvz final Oh and everyone knows if Calm losses like it looks like he will Hwasin will win his game there my reasoning
Its very unlikely that theyll send kal ace, he has focused on pvp now and lecaf wont send bakho, calm and july have better chances against jaedong/forgg
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CA10824 Posts
sheis > jaedong for ace!
oh wait -_-;
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Remember a time when hwasin used to be good? 
Lecaf is going to take this ez.
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On November 15 2008 01:08 ]343[ wrote:kal > backho calm < forgg soo < jaedong hwasin < lomo ace: calm > jaedong??
they can't go to ace if it is a 3-1 win
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On November 15 2008 05:14 dinmsab wrote:Remember a time when hwasin used to be good? Lecaf is going to take this ez.
OR
Hwasin beats lomo and then Jaedong in the ace match and unslumps and wins the next OSL!
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think OP's prediction is probably accurate. Calm (as much as I love him) might lose his game and cause us to drop it 1-3 though. Either way I don't think things look good for STX.
Then again, up until now STX has won most matchups they've been underdogs in and lost most matchups they've been favorites in SO IF THIS IS BIZARRO WORLD WE'LL WIN FOR SURE! :D
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july is my fav player by far but even so id really love to see a rematch of forgg v kal for the ace, also while stx WILL win the set calm is not beating forgg hes just way to insane tvz definetly the strongest in proscene atm (which makes savior beating him at blizzcon fucking amazing btw)
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lol, there are like 5x as many Lecaf fans as there are STX fans on this site, where the hell are they?
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United States10328 Posts
On November 15 2008 05:15 kemoryan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 01:08 ]343[ wrote:kal > backho calm < forgg soo < jaedong hwasin < lomo ace: calm > jaedong?? they can't go to ace if it is a 3-1 win
oops sorry I failed that should read HWASIN > LOMO (typo)
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I think most Lecaf fans are new to the scene and don't post as much, but I am probably wrong. Just like the people who think STX will win.
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On November 15 2008 02:08 SpiralArchitect wrote:
Lecaf is monstrous and for good reason, their lineup is so deep they are like the lakers right now. They dont really have a lack of any specific race or type of player, though BackHo is hardly the Protoss that I wish for, he gets the job done. I want Soul to win this so bad but I just dont think its possible unless they get a nice ace match. I can easily see this going 2-2 but when Jaedong is put under pressure (especially when hes already played that day) he performs like a beast. 3-2 for lecaf imo.
they are known as the team that has 0 depth and rides their aces. well done.
uuuuuunless you really want to claim that hiya lomo backho..... dongrae? are high calibre players. but then fbh is only mediocre.
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It's just that their aces are S-class than most, and they have 2 of them, meaning they could theoretically ride wins on only those 2 and the ace match. It's like a better version of KTF. Their aces are more consistent and they have more and better backup players.
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lomo, maybe.
other than that id take ktfs supporting cast any day. tempest has good games and shows some promise, and lucifer can dt drop anyone on any given day. 815 is a good choice on macro maps. i havent seen sair play much but hes been winning.
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On November 15 2008 10:32 Avidkeystamper wrote:
It's just that their aces are S-class than most, and they have 2 of them, meaning they could theoretically ride wins on only those 2 and the ace match. It's like a better version of KTF. Their aces are more consistent and they have more and better backup players. What back up players? WtfOn November 15 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote:
lomo, maybe.
other than that id take ktfs supporting cast any day. tempest has good games and shows some promise, and lucifer can dt drop anyone on any given day. 815 is a good choice on macro maps. i havent seen sair play much but hes been winning.
Dont forget haran/firefist, who look like [especially with luxury as their teacher] they could be strong players some day.
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meh, haran seemed to prosper with the whole crazy zerg thing, i dont think hes played a single televised game since it went out of style.
firefist maybe, but hes been promising for like 2 years now. granted he didnt really have a zerg mentor at wemade.
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On November 15 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote:
lomo, maybe.
other than that id take ktfs supporting cast any day. tempest has good games and shows some promise, and lucifer can dt drop anyone on any given day. 815 is a good choice on macro maps. i havent seen sair play much but hes been winning.
Lucifer sucks balls, Tempest maybe, he's still shady, I'd say around Hiya's level. Haven't seen much from 815, haven't seen much from Sair.
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Crazy sexy lineups for both sides. I have to vote against either Kal or forGG, my two faves...Lecaf will probably take this.
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On November 15 2008 04:59 LosingID8 wrote:sheis > jaedong for ace! oh wait -_-;
That guys TvZ is amazing
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On November 15 2008 11:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote:
lomo, maybe.
other than that id take ktfs supporting cast any day. tempest has good games and shows some promise, and lucifer can dt drop anyone on any given day. 815 is a good choice on macro maps. i havent seen sair play much but hes been winning.
Lucifer sucks balls, Tempest maybe, he's still shady, I'd say around Hiya's level. Haven't seen much from 815, haven't seen much from Sair.
doesnt matter how good he is, he plays cheesy protoss. that makes him valuable for sniping. not really sure what to say if you think hiyas as good as tempest. and if you havent seen much from the guy who was their best z before luxury, why you are you trying to talk about them skill wise?
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On November 15 2008 11:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 11:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 10:57 IdrA wrote:
lomo, maybe.
other than that id take ktfs supporting cast any day. tempest has good games and shows some promise, and lucifer can dt drop anyone on any given day. 815 is a good choice on macro maps. i havent seen sair play much but hes been winning.
Lucifer sucks balls, Tempest maybe, he's still shady, I'd say around Hiya's level. Haven't seen much from 815, haven't seen much from Sair. doesnt matter how good he is, he plays cheesy protoss. that makes him valuable for sniping. not really sure what to say if you think hiyas as good as tempest. and if you havent seen much from the guy who was their best z before luxury, why you are you trying to talk about them skill wise?
Woah, I swore I underlined "around". If you saw the games Tempest won in the MSL, they weren't straight up, the straight up games he lost to FBH's TvP which still is mediocre, just not autoloss. Yes, I haven't seen them, so I assume they're worse than what they're playing currently. Bad assumption?
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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so weird that they don't use july ever
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hmm, I'd hope for a 3-1 from stx..
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On November 15 2008 09:42 3clipse wrote:
lol, there are like 5x as many Lecaf fans as there are STX fans on this site, where the hell are they?
lol numbers dont matter we loud and proud
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The beautiful thing with Lecaf is that they always have a chance to win in every game... They never have an autolose matchup (except BackHo vs Z maybe) so by combining this with good Ace players they can beat every other team out there.
Kal < Backho (35/65)
PvP specialist BackHo has an advantage over Kal however he can always drop a game against any1 by screwing something up so a win isn't guaranteed.
Calm > fOrGG (55/45)
Harmony is not so hot for mutas, I predict a special build from Calm so fOrGG will lose. If they play standard ZvT Calm will be slaughtered.
SoO < Jaedong (0/100)
The king of Z will crush this no name guy without a doubt
Hwasin > lomo (60/40)
Hwasin is not so hot right now and the map is Medusa so there's room for crazy stuff in there
Ace Match: Calm or Kal < Jaedong
It's Andromeda so I think that Kal would be the better choice here. Still Jaedong is going to win this.
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On November 15 2008 13:00 heyitsme wrote:
The beautiful thing with Lecaf is that they always have a chance to win in every game... They never have an autolose matchup (except BackHo vs Z maybe) so by combining this with good Ace players they can beat every other team out there.
Kal < Backho (35/65)
PvP specialist BackHo has an advantage over Kal however he can always drop a game against any1 by screwing something up so a win isn't guaranteed.
Calm > fOrGG (55/45)
Harmony is not so hot for mutas, I predict a special build from Calm so fOrGG will lose. If they play standard ZvT Calm will be slaughtered.
SoO < Jaedong (0/100)
The king of Z will crush this no name guy without a doubt
Hwasin > lomo (60/40)
Hwasin is not so hot right now and the map is Medusa so there's room for crazy stuff in there
Ace Match: Calm or Kal < Jaedong
It's Andromeda so I think that Kal would be the better choice here. Still Jaedong is going to win this.
they said this about jaedong and oversky..
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On November 15 2008 13:43 arb wrote:
they said this about jaedong and oversky..
True, but that matchup is ZvZ
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On November 15 2008 10:20 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I think most Lecaf fans are new to the scene and don't post as much, but I am probably wrong. Just like the people who think STX will win.
I'm mostly a reader, not a poster.
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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I love to see Soo vs Jaedong...
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Here we go~ Thanks for the stream.
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Isn't that Tossgirl siting over there...
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Oh wow, starting nice and early.
Kick some ass, STX!
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On November 15 2008 14:09 muramasa wrote:
Tossgirl for Ace match.
this.
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United States13143 Posts
On November 15 2008 14:12 LunarDestiny wrote:
GG. Kal lost...
Well, not yet, but probably.
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Kal will have to kill over 9000 units with his reaver to get back in the game.
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aaaaah, wtf
Stream isn't working for me. Like, at all. It's a black window. It usually works for me, any help?
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The scarab AI really hates Kal today.
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Kal might have a chance...
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Aww... right when i got on Backho won
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It's nice to see BackHo winning games.
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
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daum is not working for me. Is there another stream?
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BackHo is good at PvP. He is Stork's practice partner for the mu.
Him beating Kal is really not a surprise...
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On November 15 2008 14:15 3clipse wrote:
aaaaah, wtf
Stream isn't working for me. Like, at all. It's a black window. It usually works for me, any help?
?
Any alternative places I can watch? Any idea what the problem is?
I just reinstalled WMP 11, still nothing. :/
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On November 15 2008 14:26 DownMaxX wrote:
It's nice to see BackHo winning games.
lol no. actually, its more like it's bad to see kal losing...
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I am quite convinced now Kal is abit overrated
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forGG fighting!!!! you can take this guy!!
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Kal's weak point is PvP and Backho's strong point is PvP...
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<3 corinthios but my vlc stream is not very smooth...
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On November 15 2008 14:29 heyitsme wrote:
BackHo is good at PvP. He is Stork's practice partner for the mu.
Him beating Kal is really not a surprise...
Really? i thought Stork was devoting more time practicing with Jangbi for his MSL semi (which he won) and the finals against either Free or Bisu. I believe Jangbi would have a higher priority than Backho. Seemed kinda weird that Kal helped Stork in the OSL and in return Stork helped Backho beat Kal.
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On November 15 2008 14:33 LunarDestiny wrote:
Kal's weak point is PvP and Backho's strong point is PvP...
Yeah, but Kal's been practicing PvP for like 3 weeks now, and Backho only new he would play Kal maybe a week in advance? I know it's not an excuse, just wanted to point that out.
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Lol Forgg must need lot of surgery to be good looking like that
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I don't know about Kal helping Stork in the OSL, but I remember that interview where Stork said that he practiced with BackHo before playing with Best.
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Yeah, Kal "helped" too, it was just that they accepted requests to play games. Much was the real help, thinking up BOs and strategies.
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Oh yea? I thought that Much mainly contributed for the Finals against Fantasy.
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tossgirl on stx's bench? interesting
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On November 15 2008 14:43 heyitsme wrote:
Oh yea? I thought that Much mainly contributed for the Finals against Fantasy.
Much for Fantasy, Kal for BeSt. BeSt is the harder opponent for sure
Quite mad that ForGG lost... I hate Calm
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On November 15 2008 14:44 talismania wrote:
tossgirl on stx's bench? interesting
She was sitting there.
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I predicted the cheez whiz from Calm
2 out of 2 in my predictions so far
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Im just upset the game ended like that ...
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On November 15 2008 14:44 Solinren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 14:44 talismania wrote:
tossgirl on stx's bench? interesting She was sitting there.
I know, I've never seen them take her to proleague before.
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Haha, Calm has been on a tear lately.
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Hes not denying that Tossgirl isnt on the bench, Calm probably forced the coaches to promote her
Tossgirl was recently promoted to A team
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Thanks for the alternate stream Corinthos. <3
CALM FTW
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On November 15 2008 14:44 kramus wrote:
wtf why didn't he repair
Forgg would have more prepared with fastling because calm had been on 2 hatches which was spotted. And the I love how calm used 4 lings to distract forgg attention and then just focus control group of ling to attack bunker
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At least we get to see Jaedong faster. ^.^
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I wonder who would have the best shot vs Jaedong if this goes to Ace? Calm, Kal and Hwasin (when he isn't on a wicked slump) are all really strong vs Z.
Edit: ooo, Jaedong's ZvZ is 77%, Calm would get crushed. I think Kal is the best choice considering the shape Hwasin is in.
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Jaedong better not screw this one up
At least ForGG's lost will allow Lomo to do some crazy wraith micro
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If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good.
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WHAT? Soo's nikname is creationtoss.. lol
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On November 15 2008 14:57 LunarDestiny wrote:
If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good.
He's 8-4? Yeah, but it's Jaedong's ZvZ. I wouldn't risk it, unless Calm has the best micro on the team.
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Calm is really good. I hate him, but he's good. JD/Calm would be like 67/33 imo.
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On November 15 2008 14:57 LunarDestiny wrote:
If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good.
If anything, i would not put Calm in the ACE match.If Jaedong wins against Soo, then theres probably a 90% chance that Jaedong will play ACE match and he has a ridiculous record against zerg. I say Kal is probably the best choice or maybe Hwasin depending on how well he fared against Lomo.
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Start the game already, OGN.
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On November 15 2008 14:51 NonConGuy wrote:
Jaedong better not screw this one up
At least ForGG's lost will allow Lomo to do some crazy wraith micro
I dunno how that will fare versus range upgraded goliaths...Lomos real entertainment factor is his 2 port wraiths in TvZ other than that hes another decent/good terran. Though he put up a good fight against Flash in Gom s1, if I recall correctly. I guess it will depends on how Hwasin plays.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Soo flinched. He can already feel a sharp pain in his asshole.
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On November 15 2008 14:57 LunarDestiny wrote:
If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good.
Calm's ZvZ is his best mu for sure but Jaedong has the best ZvZ in the damn world right now. It's totally unrealistic for Calm to have a chance other than the stardard "it was ZvZ, I got lucky". Jaedong's ZvP, while still unreal, isn't as strong as his ZvZ and Kal is just under Stork for strongest PvZ. Yeah, he's been dropping a lot of games lately, but I don't think he's in a slump, it's that a lot of them have been PvP's.
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Lomo's TvT is pretty fun to watch too.
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On November 15 2008 15:07 3clipse wrote:
Calm's ZvZ is his best mu for sure but Jaedong has the best ZvZ in the damn world right now. It's totally unrealistic for Calm to have a chance other than the stardard "it was ZvZ, I got lucky". Jaedong's ZvP, while still unreal, isn't as strong as his ZvZ and Kal is just under Stork for strongest PvZ. Yeah, he's been dropping a lot of games lately, but I don't think he's in a slump, it's that a lot of the have been PvP's.
I thought Bisu has better PvZ than Kal does...
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Jaedong is mindraping Soo by the look on their faces. You can feel it.
/joking
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Kinda funny all the drawings of Male Korean progamers look like white girls
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Bisu isn't on the team? lol
but why am i so fail with the stream?... T_T
And here I thought I had FAST internet.
why do daum streams have to be so damn high quality?
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Dang, JD's so fast, my stream's probe hasn't built a pylon yet.
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lol soo messed up his pylon placement, now he gets gas slower
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edit: nvm it's neo-requiem
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protoss is gas fucked stupid pilon placement
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Can any of us actually watch this?
There's so much buffering/lagging/waiting/skipping...for me
T_T
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On November 15 2008 15:07 3clipse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 14:57 LunarDestiny wrote:
If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good. Calm's ZvZ is his best mu for sure but Jaedong has the best ZvZ in the damn world right now. It's totally unrealistic for Calm to have a chance other than the stardard "it was ZvZ, I got lucky". Jaedong's ZvP, while still unreal, isn't as strong as his ZvZ and Kal is just under Stork for strongest PvZ. Yeah, he's been dropping a lot of games lately, but I don't think he's in a slump, it's that a lot of them have been PvP's. Stork does not have strongest pvz...
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I get shivers whenever they pan to Jaedong concentrating.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Mutas > reaver.
Jaedong got this. Snipe the reaver and Soo cant do anything.
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Wow Soo going all in, pretty much a GG for him
And it is GG
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On November 15 2008 15:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:07 3clipse wrote:On November 15 2008 14:57 LunarDestiny wrote:
If it went to ace vs Jaedong, Calm would be stx's best choice.
July's ZvZ sucking badly lately.
Hwasin is kind of slumping.
Kal is a choice.
But Calm was a ZvZ sniper and his proleague record is very good. Calm's ZvZ is his best mu for sure but Jaedong has the best ZvZ in the damn world right now. It's totally unrealistic for Calm to have a chance other than the stardard "it was ZvZ, I got lucky". Jaedong's ZvP, while still unreal, isn't as strong as his ZvZ and Kal is just under Stork for strongest PvZ. Yeah, he's been dropping a lot of games lately, but I don't think he's in a slump, it's that a lot of them have been PvP's. Stork does not have strongest pvz...
Anytime does :D
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On November 15 2008 15:16 Love.Zelduck wrote:
Can any of us actually watch this?
There's so much buffering/lagging/waiting/skipping...for me
T_T
I stopped trying to watch a while ago. I just read LRs since I can get the information faster that way, sadly lol
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United States1865 Posts
hahahahaha insane shuttle snipe by Jaedong
he is just so fucking in control from beginning to end
*edit*
and game is over
hahaha
jaedong kicks ass zvp
made him look like he was foreigner-level instead of a paid korean progamer
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What the hell!!!
Mutalisk got omg amount of walking probes...
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Wow that was pure rape. Not that I expected anything different.
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On November 15 2008 15:18 Atrioc wrote:
hahahahaha insane shuttle snipe by Jaedong
he is just so fucking in control from beginning to end
Where's that dancing pic. Where is it.
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Lecaf's got this, No one beats Lecaf in ace.
On November 15 2008 15:19 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:18 Atrioc wrote:
hahahahaha insane shuttle snipe by Jaedong
he is just so fucking in control from beginning to end
Where's that dancing pic. Where is it.
Lol, requisite for all Lecaf game thread starters to have the pic on hand?
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the pylon was hilarious =)
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Jaedong is a beast in raping rookies
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Jaedong never fails to impress me. Little tactics constantly.
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On November 15 2008 15:09 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:07 3clipse wrote:
Calm's ZvZ is his best mu for sure but Jaedong has the best ZvZ in the damn world right now. It's totally unrealistic for Calm to have a chance other than the stardard "it was ZvZ, I got lucky". Jaedong's ZvP, while still unreal, isn't as strong as his ZvZ and Kal is just under Stork for strongest PvZ. Yeah, he's been dropping a lot of games lately, but I don't think he's in a slump, it's that a lot of the have been PvP's. I thought Bisu has better PvZ than Kal does...
My bad, he does. 64% to 62%. I'm thinking back to when Bisu was on his slump. Kal's still a monster though. Probably #3 in the world for the mu but I don't have recent stats in front of me so I hope I'm not wrong again, lol.
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Storks sair reaver control in pvz might be the best..along with jangbi. I wasnt really watching sc when anytime was around so I cant comment on too many of his games outside of the ones from the GSI and vs oov.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
This game was a 8===(=DY )
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Destructionzerg > Creationtoss
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United States1865 Posts
#7
SOO:
![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/21oy1hk.png)
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On November 15 2008 15:19 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:18 Atrioc wrote:
hahahahaha insane shuttle snipe by Jaedong
he is just so fucking in control from beginning to end
Where's that dancing pic. Where is it.
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that game was sooooo rape.
JD has found out how to counter the stork rush build i guess lol.
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On November 15 2008 15:20 mog87 wrote:
Storks sair reaver control in pvz might be the best..along with jangbi. I wasnt really watching sc when anytime was around so I cant comment on too many of his games outside of the ones from the GSI and vs oov.
I'm talking recently. Sure, they may not be Jaedong or July, but Anytime's on a 10 game streak vs Zerg. He's beastin.
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On November 15 2008 15:21 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:19 EvoChamber wrote:On November 15 2008 15:18 Atrioc wrote:
hahahahaha insane shuttle snipe by Jaedong
he is just so fucking in control from beginning to end
Where's that dancing pic. Where is it.
For anyone don't know the background of this pic and thinks that blond in black is hot, I suggest you to look carefully and reconsider...
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What is that person (blond) wearing on her legs?
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Wait, Backho's a person now?
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On November 15 2008 15:24 Love.Zelduck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:20 mog87 wrote:
Storks sair reaver control in pvz might be the best..along with jangbi. I wasnt really watching sc when anytime was around so I cant comment on too many of his games outside of the ones from the GSI and vs oov. I'm talking recently. Sure, they may not be Jaedong or July, but Anytime's on a 10 game streak vs Zerg. He's beastin.
When was Anytime's last game? in May 2008?? That isnt exactly recent and plus it will be awhile before ACE can play him, reach, and casy
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United States1865 Posts
On November 15 2008 15:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:
What is that person (blond) wearing on her legs?
i dont know but let me spoil the suprise
+ Show Spoiler +
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LOMOOOO
Hwasin is going to get owned by 2port again
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I'm pretty much expecting Lomo to lose here, though of course I'd like for him to win.
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On November 15 2008 15:28 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 15:26 Avidkeystamper wrote:
What is that person (blond) wearing on her legs? i dont know but let me spoil the suprise + Show Spoiler +
I know, I was trying to prevent spoilers by using the word person.
On November 15 2008 15:28 EvoChamber wrote:
Wait, Backho's a person now?
Thought I used the word 'girl', huh?
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teal vs dark green? lame..
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On November 15 2008 12:34 Corinthos wrote:I will be relaying this when it starts. Stream: vlc: mmsh://75.126.18.2:3221
Thanks for the stream!!
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nice mine placement from Lomo, cutting off that one tank stuck on the high ground
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aaaaaand Hwasin cant even hold off a 4 vulture harass.
making him the worst player in the world ever ever
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On November 15 2008 15:32 Dazed_Spy wrote:
teal vs dark green? lame..
huh? it's yellow vs red
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On November 15 2008 15:38 DeepGray wrote:huh? it's yellow vs red it started off as teal/dark green, they switched it like 4 minutes in
and the yellow is more of a tan 
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the colors are different than what the game started with, never knew they could change colors
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United States1865 Posts
On November 15 2008 15:38 ShloobeR wrote:
aaaaaand Hwasin cant even hold off a 4 vulture harass.
making him the worst player in the world ever ever
fact
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hwasin is tan, lomo is red
hwasin winning so far...but its close
nvm lomo is up a base
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pretty much even, but Hwasin not doing a good job commanding his scvs, had like 10 of them on the high ground going back and forth without even noticing.
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dropships by hwasin, lets see how prepared lomo is
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On November 15 2008 15:45 -slo.m1ke- wrote:
nice scvs for hwashin =)
That happens when you send SCVs from ur main to ur second natural (not the one on high ground).
I can't believe this never came up during practice.
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lomo has better map control on the left, hwasin on the right. Stalemate, the best kind of tvt. [seriously, I love it].
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On November 15 2008 15:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:That happens when you send SCVs from ur main to ur second natural (not the one on high ground). I can't believe this never came up during practice.
Not first time, dont remember what games but i ve seen probes doing the same.
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awww
i was pretty happy with the recent spurt of fun TvTs.
but it's games like this that ruin TvT for me
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I'd never have guessed, but Medusa is actually a pretty sweet TvT map.
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Uh-Oh, they split the map but it looks like Hwasin has the 3rd main area.
Looks like BCs.
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Yeah, lomo just threw away all his dropships with tanks inside. Not looking good for him at all
woah, hwasin going massive amounts of starports
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Lomo tries to do something exciting but this will only lose him the game
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Personally I hate this kind of TvT.. stalemates are boring. At least Medusa is a 3-player map which means they can't both just sit back and mine out, one will come out ahead.
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On November 15 2008 15:51 NonConGuy wrote:
Yeah, lomo just threw away all his dropships with tanks inside. Not looking good for him at all
woah, hwasin going massive amounts of starports
Physics lab going up!!
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fuck yeah that's the payoff of long tvts - BCs!!!
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This is a little more like the old Hwasin.
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Oh my God,I fucking hate T v T
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Lomo down to 3 mining bases, Hwasin is definitely going to take this game. Lets go ace match
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Hwasin's level of play is oscillating so wildly recently...should've gone with wraiths, Lomo.
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Just gg out, Lomo, no point in dragging this out.
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Whoa, the Great Wall of Tanks!?!
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well if it gets to ace prolly get to see Jaedong again?
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Lomo has to GG when the BCs come.
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BCs spotted, Lomo should just GG
and he does
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Hwasin looks to be suiciding SCVs to get more supply...for his BCs!
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july vs jaedong
calm vs jaedong
july vs forgg
hwasin vs jaedong I think are the most likely ace matches .... assuming lomo doesn't nuke his way out of this!
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Battlecruisers, eh? Don't see that every day.
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On November 15 2008 15:55 AttackZerg wrote:
july vs jaedong
calm vs jaedong
july vs forgg
hwasin vs jaedong I think are the most likely ace matches .... assuming lomo doesn't nuke his way out of this!
Most likely hwasin and jaedong
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i loved the old send the engineering bay to distract the turrets trick lol
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damn hwasin looking raggedly tied - dunno if he would have the energy for an ace match
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The bright side is Lomo wore Hwasin down with a loooooong TvT.
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I predict... Calm vs. Jaedong
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I'd say it's probably going to be Calm/Kal vs Jaedong. It's Andro right?
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and hwasin wins without crossing the center of the map, how can people say that TvT is the best race mu?
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I want Jaedong vs Hwasin.
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Jin YoungSoo! Lomo has sweat coming off his try face :S
and hwasin clutches,
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Time for aceeeeeeee
Kal vs JaeDong or Hwasin vs Jaedong ?
Lomo had way more advanctage early game, but the first push actually costed him agame
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United States17042 Posts
On November 15 2008 15:57 malongo wrote:
and hwasin wins without crossing the center of the map, how can people say that TvT is the best race mu?
all mirrors have their bad games and their good games.
Let's see jaedong again.
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hwasin/kal vs jaedong..or hopefully kal vs forgg.
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I still maintain they should send Kal, but that was pretty decent from Hwasin so I guess he has a shot at coming through too.
Still, this is Jaedong, I've pretty much come to terms with STX losing this.
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meh that game reminded me of the downside to TvT
probably zvz for ace
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If Lecaf sends fOrGG and loses, I'll feel depressed during my competition tomorrow.
(Dang that was a bad post).
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I think Hwasin the TvZ specialist has the best chance..either way as long as the ace isnt a ZvZ or a TvT we should be in for a treat.
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I reckon it will be like
Hwasin : 'Coach! I am gaining some confidence! I request to play in the ace match!'
Coach : 'Yes I approve!'
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Hwasin : 'Coach! I have just been raped and lost us the match!"
Coash : 'Yes!'
This is how I would like it to pan out anyway
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On November 15 2008 16:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
If Lecaf sends fOrGG and loses, I'll feel depressed during my competition tomorrow.
(Dang that was a bad post).
what competition?
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If Lecaf didn't send Jaedong they are stupid...
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KAL MY MAN SHOW YOUR STUFF!!!!!!!!!
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Kal vs. Jaedong. Go go go STX~
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Jaedong was expected
Kal vs Jaedong for ace match!
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i said it first tbfh!
+ need lecaf shirts ty.
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YEAHHH Kal vs JD
Show us that you deserve a spot in PR Kal
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Hell yeah. It's gonna be a sweet game
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this could be a really great game... fingers crossed
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Lets see Jaedong raping a better protoss on a bias ZvP map...
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jaedong has his "im a badass ill eat you" face
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Interesting...gogo Kal =D
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ANDROMEDA
this is going to be a great game.
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We need a better Jaedong pic for TLPD to show his intense concentration face.
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Kal's pvz is awesome against jaedongs style. I'm a huge jd fan, but I think I would give kal better chances then any other protoss alive against jd in a match.
Just my opinion, statistics do not back this  .
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On November 15 2008 16:05 AttackZerg wrote:Kal's pvz is awesome against jaedongs style. I'm a huge jd fan, but I think I would give kal better chances then any other protoss alive against jd in a match. Just my opinion, statistics do not back this .
I would agree
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On November 15 2008 13:00 heyitsme wrote:
The beautiful thing with Lecaf is that they always have a chance to win in every game... They never have an autolose matchup (except BackHo vs Z maybe) so by combining this with good Ace players they can beat every other team out there.
Kal < Backho (35/65)
PvP specialist BackHo has an advantage over Kal however he can always drop a game against any1 by screwing something up so a win isn't guaranteed.
Calm > fOrGG (55/45)
Harmony is not so hot for mutas, I predict a special build from Calm so fOrGG will lose. If they play standard ZvT Calm will be slaughtered.
SoO < Jaedong (0/100)
The king of Z will crush this no name guy without a doubt
Hwasin > lomo (60/40)
Hwasin is not so hot right now and the map is Medusa so there's room for crazy stuff in there
Ace Match: Calm or Kal < Jaedong
It's Andromeda so I think that Kal would be the better choice here. Still Jaedong is going to win this.
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What is kal's pvz style? harass? jd will out multi-task him
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On November 15 2008 16:06 heyitsme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 13:00 heyitsme wrote:
The beautiful thing with Lecaf is that they always have a chance to win in every game... They never have an autolose matchup (except BackHo vs Z maybe) so by combining this with good Ace players they can beat every other team out there.
Kal < Backho (35/65)
PvP specialist BackHo has an advantage over Kal however he can always drop a game against any1 by screwing something up so a win isn't guaranteed.
Calm > fOrGG (55/45)
Harmony is not so hot for mutas, I predict a special build from Calm so fOrGG will lose. If they play standard ZvT Calm will be slaughtered.
SoO < Jaedong (0/100)
The king of Z will crush this no name guy without a doubt
Hwasin > lomo (60/40)
Hwasin is not so hot right now and the map is Medusa so there's room for crazy stuff in there
Ace Match: Calm or Kal < Jaedong
It's Andromeda so I think that Kal would be the better choice here. Still Jaedong is going to win this.
damn, nice
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stream being a huge beyotch to me atm
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On November 15 2008 16:06 Proposal wrote:
What is kal's pvz style? harass? jd will out multi-task him
Kal has an agressive style, yes harass, and yes Jaedong won against that style before, 2nd game of their finals.
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Kal's style against strong opponent is semi-cheese...
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On November 15 2008 16:07 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:06 heyitsme wrote:On November 15 2008 13:00 heyitsme wrote:
The beautiful thing with Lecaf is that they always have a chance to win in every game... They never have an autolose matchup (except BackHo vs Z maybe) so by combining this with good Ace players they can beat every other team out there.
Kal < Backho (35/65)
PvP specialist BackHo has an advantage over Kal however he can always drop a game against any1 by screwing something up so a win isn't guaranteed.
Calm > fOrGG (55/45)
Harmony is not so hot for mutas, I predict a special build from Calm so fOrGG will lose. If they play standard ZvT Calm will be slaughtered.
SoO < Jaedong (0/100)
The king of Z will crush this no name guy without a doubt
Hwasin > lomo (60/40)
Hwasin is not so hot right now and the map is Medusa so there's room for crazy stuff in there
Ace Match: Calm or Kal < Jaedong
It's Andromeda so I think that Kal would be the better choice here. Still Jaedong is going to win this. damn, nice
lol thx
However I can still miss my prediction on the outcome of the Ace match
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STX coach looks like he's contemplating suicide, as usual.
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man the stripes on the ogn commentators' suits are rather distracting. quite a fashion statement.
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I really hate those commentators...
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JAEDONG FIGHTING~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~~!~!
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Kal in the bottom right, Jaedong in the top left. Let's do this Kal~ TT
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stream just dropped for me, and is now back up
kal in bottom right, jd in top left
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On November 15 2008 16:10 EvoChamber wrote:
STX coach looks like he's contemplating suicide, as usual.
I lolled hard.
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On November 15 2008 16:08 LunarDestiny wrote:
Kal's style against strong opponent is semi-cheese... your a dumbass and will probably end up banned...
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Fuck. I was sure it was going to be Tossgirl.
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Wtf at the girl who is kneeing down with her shoe off!!!
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On November 15 2008 16:15 muramasa wrote:
Fuck. I was sure it was going to be Tossgirl.
They'll probably use her when they play eSTRO or ACE.
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12 hatch into pool, forge then nexus for kal
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:16 DownMaxX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:15 muramasa wrote:
Fuck. I was sure it was going to be Tossgirl. They'll probably use her when they play eSTRO or ACE.
And lose.
She's just there to look pretty not to play. You don't wanna think that but it's true.
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United States17042 Posts
fourth hatch going up for jaedong, looks like sair reaver for kal
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Agreed, tossgirl is no really on the A team to play. I feel she is more used for motivational purposes
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United States17042 Posts
jaedong's going with scourge to kill the first sair, then going with lurker. Kal's going to be in trouble if he keeps losing sairs
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United States17042 Posts
2 sairs now for kal, he's hiding them against the threat of muta
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United States17042 Posts
are the scourge going to kill the shuttle as it pops? guess not.
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On November 15 2008 16:20 NonConGuy wrote:
Agreed, tossgirl is no really on the A team to play. I feel she is more used for motivational purposes
you'd think she would be more distracting than motivating...
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United States17042 Posts
3 muta vs 2 sairs, it's not going to be enough, jd runs, brings more scourge
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Ninja zealot scouts Jaedong.
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I really wanna know how the living conditions are there. How do they maintain privacy?
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United States17042 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:21 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:20 NonConGuy wrote:
Agreed, tossgirl is no really on the A team to play. I feel she is more used for motivational purposes you'd think she would be more distracting than motivating...
motivating the B team maybe >.>
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United States13143 Posts
Wow, that zealot had 4 kills and had scouted JDs main when it died.
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United States17042 Posts
ninja zeal also gets 1 drone kill
4 scourge are scouting in kal's base, kal has 2 reavers and no shuttle
jaedong's at 3 gas right now, going with hydra+muta+ling
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On November 15 2008 16:22 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I really wanna know how the living conditions are there. How do they maintain privacy?
I would assume she has her own room and possibly own bathroom. It would probably encourage the guys to actually tidy up after themselves.
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SICK SHUTTLE SNIPE
Kal definitely down by a lot losing i think 2 reavers along with the shuttle
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United States17042 Posts
jd with some sick play, kal loses 2 reavers
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Jaedong's play is so intimidating.. he's going to make one of these new 15-year-old progamers cry with his mindgames someday.
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bye bye shuttle with 2 reavers
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oooooh, bad news for Kal.
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United States10774 Posts
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United States17042 Posts
JD has this game no sweat, kal didn't manage to take down jd's fourth, jd has like 3 control of hydra. Depends how the ht storm ><;;
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Jaedong with a fucking huge amount of hydras heading to kals base
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okay massive hydra break soon...
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United States17042 Posts
hydra break fails, becuase of reavers+ht from kal.
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United States17042 Posts
kal's endgame strat better be really really good, becuase without his first 2 reavers he has no midgame strat.
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J with way more bases and kal contained
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United States1865 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:24 DownMaxX wrote:
Jaedong's play is so intimidating.. he's going to make one of these new 15-year-old progamers cry with his mindgames someday.
i'm pretty sure he made by.baby (who is really young) cry or at least quite upset after the proleague match they had
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United States17042 Posts
storm and reavers are so good. How many bases does jd have- on the minimap it looks like he's unstoppable >.>
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Wow that 2 control group of lurkers was failure by Jaedong
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Holy fuck! Jaedong just lost a billion lurkers and killed nothing.
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United States17042 Posts
1.5 controls of lurkers for jd, and he's coming in for the flank with the hydra. That's a lot of dead lurkers...
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United States10774 Posts
WTF @ JAEDONG AND MASS LURKERS LOLLLL
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what is jaedong doing with his lurkers...
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WOW, big battle won by Kal. He's actually hanging on this game. Only by a thread, but it's still impressive considering that start.
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United States13143 Posts
wow, JD's hydralurk army was absolutely crushed.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Jaedong: "here Kal kill 30 lurkers for free and see how much I care."
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I think Kal might actually win this game!
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is Jaedong just fucking around or what.
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Wow his storms are godly.
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United States12607 Posts
Kal's PvZ is not to be fucked with.
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United States17042 Posts
kal is pushing in on jd's main, but I don't think kal has enough units to actually break jd.
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As long as kal doesn't mc a defiler, jd will win.
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Kim GuHyun! Control ssa eum! Seriously sick storms and mass fighting.
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United States17042 Posts
kal trying to take the main/nat on the top right, looks like it's going to be uncontested for now by jaedong.
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youre on like 15 bases JD
defiler or ultra or something please :O
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Like a said, kals style is very very good against jaedongs style!
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United States17042 Posts
4 gas for jaedong right now, we should be able to see ultra/ling soon (or dark swarm. That's a lot of ht to try to combat the hydra blob.
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Smart play by jaedong by countering at Kal's new base rather than saving his own.
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WHERE'S THE COWS?
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United States10774 Posts
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Kal is pushing into Jaedong's nat with a huge force. I't slooking really good for Kal now.
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United States17042 Posts
jd trades expos'
left hand side for jaedong, top right for kal. Jd needs to hold off this push, right now all he has is hydra+ ling, and 1 defiler.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:32 AttackZerg wrote:
Like a said, kals style is very very good against jaedongs style!
Jaedong just dropped the soap.
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United States13143 Posts
hahaha, Kal building a nexus in the middle.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:33 DownMaxX wrote:WHERE'S THE COWS?
No cows for Jaedong because he spent all his gas on lurkers
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United States17042 Posts
does kal seriously think that he can hold the double gas in the middle at this point? 5 sunkes to block for jd at the bottom left.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Seriously Jaedong, what a fucking joke.
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for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P
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Now DT harass. I'm no expert, but this looks poor for JD.
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United States17042 Posts
jd was in trouble after he lost his 1.5 control groups of lurkers to that goon
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Jaedong is barely mining now.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:35 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:
jd was in trouble after he lost his 1.5 control groups of lurkers to that goon
why the FUCK did he make them? all that resources could have been spent on faster hive, more hydras/lings/hatcheries/ultras
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United States17042 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:36 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote:
jd was in trouble after he lost his 1.5 control groups of lurkers to that goon why the FUCK did he make them? all that resources could have been spent on faster hive, more hydras/lings/hatcheries/ultras
agreed. I think that jd's base count right now is lower than kals
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jd is long sense dead.
wow.
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Boooo. Jaedong should not have lost that game.
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United States17042 Posts
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! THANK YOU SO MUCH KAL!
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Hm...if his ZvP is slumping this could mean a renaissance of his ZvT?
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Fuck. Jaedong blown away another lead. Looks like Jaedong forgot how to strike. Although Kal played great. His storms were awesome.
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wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/
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jaedong threw that one... in complete control until it looked like he had no mid-late game plan.
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That was depressing. So many lurkers against goons and ht. GG.
And Kal looks smug as always. -.-
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I just realized kal trains pvz against julyzerg ..... lol no wonder he is good against jaedong .
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I believe Khan takes 1st place now?
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STX for Proleague champs!
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On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/
How is Kal mediocre?
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CA10824 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/
wow, how can you call kal a mediocre toss?
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It pains me that kal looks so pleased
didn't JD say recently that he doesnt want to use Guardians because he keeps losing with them?
His unit pool is going to be very thin soon
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every Lecaf loss is always nice for us KTF fans... lol
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On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/
Kal is FAR from mediocre toss. If jaedong didnt make so many and had more hydras, it should have been in the bag.
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On November 15 2008 16:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Hm...if his ZvP is slumping this could mean a renaissance of his ZvT?
I hope not,because all good players out there right now are protoss. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with Jaedong. When the terrans are terrorizing everybody,his Z v T is slumping,and now that the protoss have taken over everything,his Z v P is starting to slump. C'mon JD. Pull your shit back together fast.
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Thanks again for the VLC stream, Corinthos~
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Looks like Jaedongs ZvP against Backho is overtaking his ZvP against Anytime.
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On November 15 2008 16:39 Nitan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ How is Kal mediocre?
Ok, Kal isn't that mediocre, but his ZvP in general is just dying lately.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
He's sweating just as hard as vs Free lol. Jaedong please shape up or gtfo. That was painful to watch.
Jesus even a D- Zerg wouldn't move in 24 CLUMPED lurkers into goon/ht. What a a horrible ZvP.
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On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P
he can't he was playing zerg.
now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it.
and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
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I dont really fucking understand why he made so many lurkers and moved all of them to the bottom expo, to defend???????????, and after getting such a big big advantage of snippign shuttle??
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On November 15 2008 16:38 AttackZerg wrote:I just realized kal trains pvz against julyzerg ..... lol no wonder he is good against jaedong .
I think the underlying reason was like 20 lurkers dying after only shooting 1 round of spines...and that was maybe like 7 of them.
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On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main.
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On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard.
Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs.
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On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs.
Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously.
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United States17042 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
about 2 years ago, before bisu, the answer was: ultra/ling is imba.
Now, I'm not so sure. You need to balance units and resources so that you can be a step ahead. Jaedong got a huge advantage that game by taking out the first two reavers, then threw away the advantage that he gained by building 1.5 control of lurkers, and getting them taken out by about 2 controls of goons
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jd got to cozy lost the killer instinct and just assumed he could roll whatever kal had and got his lurks raped for nothing, still amazing play by kal we did it stx fans pulled out another one
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On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously. Yeah, considering flash has the highest elo peak at the moment, his answer I have to guess is "k".
On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. Yes it is an answer. A great pvz a few years ago would have a 52% win ratio. Zerg were imbalanced, and still are. Protoss get two bases and have to hide away in their base while zerg can take the map, switch techs almost immediately, doom drop freely...and did I mention crack lings? Yeah, if a protoss gets on 4- 5 gas with pure archons late hes really strong. Sur-fuckin-prise. If you sit there and let ANY race pump out their best troops with great resources they become unstoppable.
Starcraft is about abusing your races' strengths, and minimizing your races' weaknesses. If a protoss gets to late game, has numerous reavers and archons, the zerg failed miserably.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
jaedong could have done anything to win but to spend shitload of resources on 24 lurkers and suicide them? mass ling hydra and a couple lurks works. faster hive into cracklings works. dont cry, his 25 mineral/75 gas scourages took down shuttle+ 2 reavers. in terms of indvidual unit strength, of course protoss is better, but that's not how zerg is played. zerg = cheap masses with a lot of expos. get it?
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I think Kal played excellently late game.
But before that 24 Lurker suicide pact, Kal was being schooled
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
The scenario this game was a lot different taht in the Free game. Kal did not macro off 5 gas forever.
Jaedong would have won if he didn't suicide all those lurks. Don't complain man, thats Protoss's job.
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On November 15 2008 16:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously. Yeah, considering flash has the highest elo peak at the moment, his answer I have to guess is "k".
StarCraft is so volatile, posting stuff like this will only bite you in the end.
If they rematched I would vote for Jaedong and I'm sure a large majority would too.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main.
Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda.
Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game.
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How incredibly lame.
I always thought Andromeda lends itself to 'your contain means nothing' type of games. Lurker suicide or not, Jaedong had no business losing that. Zerg have a huge advantage early due to 3hatching at 3 mineral patches with 1 choke, but the map also forces the Zerg to have a window where they more or less have to hydra break or it's over. JD's was late, and he lost.
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On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game.
Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
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On November 15 2008 16:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously. Yeah, considering flash has the highest elo peak at the moment, his answer I have to guess is "k". StarCraft is so volatile, posting stuff like this will only bite you in the end. If they rematched I would vote for Jaedong and I'm sure a large majority would too. Flash is playing like a god again. Jaedong is losing to Frozean, Kal, and fuckin roro. Don't even try it.
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On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs.
I might be going out on a limb here, but I think a best of 5 Final is both more important and more telling than a PL ace match.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
I am not looking at the game list, Andromeda has ALWAYS been a Zerg map.
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Jaedong losing to Free in bo3 in MSL, Stork in bo3 WCG, and now Kal in the important ace match. Jaedong's zvp confidence cant be so high
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On November 15 2008 16:43 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. jaedong could have done anything to win but to spend shitload of resources on 24 lurkers and suicide them? mass ling hydra and a couple lurks works. faster hive into cracklings works. dont cry, his 25 mineral/75 gas scourages took down shuttle+ 2 reavers. in terms of indvidual unit strength, of course protoss is better, but that's not how zerg is played. zerg = cheap masses with a lot of expos. get it?
it was looking like game 1 (maby diff game dont remember) of the july v backho series where he got his reavers sniped then sent in the zealots anyway retreated them then suicided them into an expo seemingly defeated but unlike july jd got careless and well kal isnt backho
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On November 15 2008 16:47 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously. Yeah, considering flash has the highest elo peak at the moment, his answer I have to guess is "k". StarCraft is so volatile, posting stuff like this will only bite you in the end. If they rematched I would vote for Jaedong and I'm sure a large majority would too. Flash is playing like a god again. Jaedong is losing to Frozean, Kal, and fuckin roro. Don't even try it.
Try what?
Don't even jump it.
See, I can do it too.
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It seems like JD lost the same way he lost vs free: too much cockiness / dumb tech choice. Once he took out that shuttle he got too relaxed.
GODDAMNIT Jaedong, yes you are mechanically the best zerg player on earth, but stop fucking doing dumb shit like this :\, Us Z players need SOMEONE to look up to.
At least his lost means my team wins! :D
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United States10774 Posts
seriously, I would have left after losing the reavers and suiciding my zealots. Also having seen 4 bases filled with drones.
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On November 15 2008 16:47 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. I might be going out on a limb here, but I think a best of 5 Final is both more important and more telling than a PL ace match. Yes, a best out of five final is more telling of skill at the moment. Sadly your vaunted win is quite old indeed.
But yes, lets have this b05 between Flash and Jaedong. It wouldn't be close, with the shit Jaedong pulled today...yesterday...day before that, and just in general, for the last month or two .
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
Here's the game list, take a nice long look.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvP
Zerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP.
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On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP.
I don't understand why Protosses always go sair/reaver on that map. It just encourages mass expo even more.
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On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP.
The min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases. Care to respond to my other points, including who actually played the games? It was Good Zergs (Luxury, July, Jaedong) against protosses either unknown or bad vZ (Backho, Best).
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On November 15 2008 16:53 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP. I don't understand why Protosses always go sair/reaver on that map. It just encourages mass expo even more.
Easy transition into island expansions, and they have a lot of free expansions that way, maybe the transition to normal ground units quicker and more powerful.
Khan and Lecaf are tied 6-2
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Sorry, I triple posted. Spare me.
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On November 15 2008 16:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP. The min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases. Care to respond to my other points, including who actually played the games? It was Good Zergs (Luxury, July, Jaedong) against protosses either unknown or bad vZ (Backho, Best).
hyvaa over jangbi and hyuk over free seem REALLY outa place lol
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On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
Taking out islands is zerg's specialty. No amount of cannons can stand up to a few ovies packed with cracklings and a couple of swarms. So it's not imba there.
Andromeda by its layout is very zerg favored.
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On November 15 2008 16:57 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Taking out islands is zerg's specialty. No amount of cannons can stand up to a few ovies packed with cracklings and a couple of swarms. So it's not imba there. Andromeda by its layout is very zerg favored.
Um no amount of ovies can stand up to 6 upgraded air attack corsairs. Which they get with the sair/reaver opening.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP. The min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases. Care to respond to my other points, including who actually played the games? It was Good Zergs (Luxury, July, Jaedong) against protosses either unknown or bad vZ (Backho, Best).
Do you know anything about ZvP? What Protoss needs is a third gas, not a mineral only. Your point makes zero sense...it only favors Protoss because they usually have less bases? WHAT? While Protoss is taking the mineral only Zerg eats the entire up. Stop trolling, Z>P on Andromeda. It has always been that way and even today the Korean commentators were talking about why exactly Zerg is so favored over Protoss on that map.
Yeah, I don't want to list out the games for you. Go look at it yourself. See how well Stork, Bisu, free, Jangbi, and the other top Protoss do on that map. And what kind of horrible Zergs they lose to on that shit map.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:57 baubo wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Taking out islands is zerg's specialty. No amount of cannons can stand up to a few ovies packed with cracklings and a couple of swarms. So it's not imba there. Andromeda by its layout is very zerg favored. Um no amount of ovies can stand up to 6 upgraded air attack corsairs. Which they get with the sair/reaver opening.
turn map hack on by burrowing zerglings everywhere and drop wherever the sairs aren't
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Khan and Lecaf are tied 6-2
Khan is 1'st because their game W-L ratio is better.
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On November 15 2008 16:58 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP. The min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases. Care to respond to my other points, including who actually played the games? It was Good Zergs (Luxury, July, Jaedong) against protosses either unknown or bad vZ (Backho, Best). Do you know anything about ZvP? What Protoss needs is a third gas, not a mineral only. Your point makes zero sense...it only favors Protoss because they usually have less bases? WHAT? While Protoss is taking the mineral only Zerg eats the entire up. Stop trolling, Z>P on Andromeda. It has always been that way and even today the Korean commentators were talking about why exactly Zerg is so favored over Protoss on that map. Yeah, I don't want to list out the games for you. Go look at it yourself. See how well Stork, Bisu, free, and the other top Protoss do on that map.
Protosses usually have less bases, since this map gives an extra base, the ratio is 4:3 bases instead of 3:2 which is more balanced. I also mentioned the island. Which is gas btw. Bisu and Stork do well on the map, remember Bisu vs Jaedong and Stork vs Lux/GGPlay. Free is inconsistent, everyone agrees on that. If you look at the game list, the majority fits what I said earlier.
This is to your burrowed zergling thing. By the late game where zergs attempt drops, Protoss have observers for Lurkers and usually just in case. Also, drops are usually done quick, on cross maps you can't wait for the overlords to go all the way to the islands in time, because if scouted, the corsairs will get there so much faster. On noncross positions, the protoss should not take the island. Unless they play Stork style.
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On November 15 2008 16:48 OneOther wrote:
I am not looking at the game list, Andromeda has ALWAYS been a Zerg map.
What? Zerg wins about 60% on that map, which probably about equal to what you'd see over all ZvPs. Don't forget how much the huge size helps balance the early game back in the favor of non-zerg.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:58 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:51 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Here's the game list, take a nice long look. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/175_Andromeda/games/ZvPZerg gets shitload of resources and produces unlimited number of units to eventually starve the Protoss. Andromeda is the map you see the most hatcheries in ZvP. The min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases. Care to respond to my other points, including who actually played the games? It was Good Zergs (Luxury, July, Jaedong) against protosses either unknown or bad vZ (Backho, Best). Do you know anything about ZvP? What Protoss needs is a third gas, not a mineral only. Your point makes zero sense...it only favors Protoss because they usually have less bases? WHAT? While Protoss is taking the mineral only Zerg eats the entire up. Stop trolling, Z>P on Andromeda. It has always been that way and even today the Korean commentators were talking about why exactly Zerg is so favored over Protoss on that map. Yeah, I don't want to list out the games for you. Go look at it yourself. See how well Stork, Bisu, free, and the other top Protoss do on that map. Protosses usually have less bases, since this map gives an extra base, the ratio is 4:3 bases instead of 3:2 which is more balanced. I also mentioned the island. Which is gas btw. Bisu and Stork do well on the map, remember Bisu vs Jaedong and Stork vs Lux/GGPlay. Free is inconsistent, everyone agrees on that. If you look at the game list, the majority fits what I said earlier.
someone please save me from this misery.
if you don't mind me asking, what rank are you on iccup? If you know the matchup ZvP pretty well, I can't believe you are actually saying P>Z on Andromeda. Come on.
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Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:01 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:48 OneOther wrote:
I am not looking at the game list, Andromeda has ALWAYS been a Zerg map.
What? Zerg wins about 60% on that map, which probably about equal to what you'd see over all ZvPs. Don't forget how much the huge size helps balance the early game back in the favor of non-zerg.
huge map size always, always helps zergs.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote:
Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ.
Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it.
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On November 15 2008 17:03 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote:
Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it.
Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible.
I'm going to sleep, I can't reply for at least a day.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:04 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:03 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote:
Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it. Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible.
Vertical/Horizontal distances are close, and the chokes are pretty wide, which is why it's very cheesible. And also why so many Zergs do it.
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On November 15 2008 17:05 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:04 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 17:03 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote:
Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it. Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible. Vertical/Horizontal distances are close, and the chokes are pretty wide, which is why it's very cheesible. And also why so many Zergs do it.
The bases are in the corners of the map, the furthest it can be, also the map is big, aforementioned, and each base has a ramp-choke, I mean come on.
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United States10774 Posts
Avidkeystamper:
If you don't mind me asking, what rank are you on iccup? If you understand and know the matchup ZvP pretty well, I don't see how you are actually saying P>Z on Andromeda. Come on. Is this your lack of knowledge or crazy Jaedong fanboyism? I am not even trying to defend anything, because I don't like Kal. I am just awed that you are actually claiming Z isn't favored over P on this map.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:06 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:05 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:04 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 17:03 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote:
Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it. Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible. Vertical/Horizontal distances are close, and the chokes are pretty wide, which is why it's very cheesible. And also why so many Zergs do it. The bases are in the corners of the map, the furthest it can be, also the map is big, aforementioned, and each base has a ramp-choke, I mean come on.
Ramp choke doesn't help at all. Corners? How the hell does that matter? If you have ever played on Andromeda, you would know the distance from Zerg base to Protoss choke is very close vertically/horizontally. The map has a huge center...but that doesn't matter. All that cheese needs is close distance/wide choke.
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United States10774 Posts
GO LOOK AT SOME GAMES AND HOW NEWB ZERGS MANAGE TO BEAT GOOD PROTOSS WITH CHEESE, PLEASE
IT WORKS WELL!!!
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9070 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/
I lol'ed incredibly hard on than
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Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote:
Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win.
Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me...
One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage...
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On November 15 2008 17:10 OneOther wrote:
GO LOOK AT SOME GAMES AND HOW NEWB ZERGS MANAGE TO BEAT GOOD PROTOSS WITH CHEESE, PLEASE
As I mentioned earlier, the point about Andromeda is it gives zergs an easy hydra break opportunity early because of 3 hatch at 3 mineral patches with only 1 choke. That's why it seems like it's zerg favored overall - because zerg has a few minute window where they can press a huge advantage. Contains are much riskier, because of the way Protoss is able to reach the critical mass of 'hi I obliterate zerg' units without needing any more bases.
The open map argument is true for ZvT (and PvT really), but not as much for ZvP.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:22 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:10 OneOther wrote:
GO LOOK AT SOME GAMES AND HOW NEWB ZERGS MANAGE TO BEAT GOOD PROTOSS WITH CHEESE, PLEASE As I mentioned earlier, the point about Andromeda is it gives zergs an easy hydra break opportunity early because of 3 hatch at 3 mineral patches with only 1 choke. That's why it seems like it's zerg favored overall - because zerg has a few minute window where they can press a huge advantage. Contains are much riskier, because of the way Protoss is able to reach the critical mass of 'hi I obliterate zerg' units without needing any more bases. The open map argument is true for ZvT (and PvT really), but not as much for ZvP.
yeah, see, that's not the only reason why Zerg is good on it though. I think zer0das covered it well.
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United States2186 Posts
How is this possibly being argued? In many maps imbalance is hard to tell at first and evens out over time (815, Arcadia), or a counter is developed (Katrina), but Andro has been played so much that the imbalance is clearly present.
For theory, look at it this way: Andro by its nature forces tosses to go sair/reaver, both because of the islands and because how disadvantageous toss ground is (very easily defendable 3 bases Savior style->non sair/reaver does not grant protoss an accessible 3rd or 4th gas which is needed to combat the super rich Zerg) . They also have to prepare for a hydra break which can be very easily done or threatened at little sacrifice (at least a 3 hatch build). And note that contrary to what was said at some point or another, the zerg is not at a disadvantage if they don't hydra break. It's just a very real threat that the toss has to keep in mind and go out of their way to prepare for, provided the scouting probe is denied.
Know what the number one weakness of sair/reaver is? How slow and immobile it is. The sairs must always be there to protect the shuttles. Sair/reaver cannot be in multiple places at once. Sair/reaver can be ambushed, as it is predictable and easily foreseen. So essentially, sair/reaver has great trouble of killing a lot of zerg bases at once, something normal toss ground has no issues with (dts and speed zeals are fine on their own while reavers must be supported at all times). I always tell people I teach that when playing against sair/reaver: just overexpand, they won't be able to shut them all down. And guess what Andromeda gives? A ridiculous amount of expansions.
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good job Kal, glad SXT pulls this upset ^.^
*going to watch the ace game*
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Can't believe so many people are calling Kal a mediocre P. Also, can't believe almost NOBODY mentioned that this was a finals rematch ... it's like everybody completely forgot about that one
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Kal is definitely not a mediocre P :/
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On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss.
Hey, I like that line of thinking!
Most of mercury's zvp games feature good zvp players (yellow, jju, july, saferzerg) against bad pvz players (reach, rock, autumn, zeus). Sure, there are some exceptions, but that won't be an issue since andromeda has such anomalies as hyuk > free, type-b > stork (type-b's only zvp win ever), and hyvaa > jangbi.
Clearly mercury's statistical imbalance is merely due to repeated mismatches featuring zvp juggernauts against mediocre pvz players. I'm pleased to say that mercury is in fact balanced zvp!
Oh wait, you also had some crappy matchup analysis to go with it. I'm not sure how to even respond to the "min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases" thing. The min-only expansion most certainly does not favor protoss. It's not uncommon in pvz to have thousands of minerals in the bank with a two digit gas count, simply because protoss needs every drop of gas it can mine to win against a competent zerg. Quite a few tosses on andromeda don't even take the min-only expansion until a bit later and get a third gas as their second expansion simply because gas is that crucial.
What's advantageous for protoss is a fast third gas. However, an island is not the same at all. Going for the island that quickly tips off your reaver/sair strat to the zerg (and reaver/sair is the only way to do it unless you want to die), so any advantage is lost. Unfortunately andromeda is completely wide open in the center, so the only safe way for a protoss to grab a third gas IS by an island. The game that most reveals the imbalance is jaedong versus stork from the WCG Korea finals. Stork clearly wanted no part of a straight up game on that map, so he went for a desperate goon/reaver timing attack (without taking the min-only, how about that) which failed horribly because the open nature of andromeda allowed jaedong to surround and destroy without giving stork any place to retreat to.
Basically, andromeda is z > p, stop trying to fight it.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 18:54 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 16:41 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer. It's hard on Andromeda, what Jaedong should've on done was to exploit the Protoss army's lack of mobility and done repeated harass with drops on the main. Zerg>>>>Protoss on Andromeda. Jaedong ACTUALLY lost after taking down a shuttle/2 reavers and fucking up Kal's entire timing and strategy. This is how much Jaedong sucked in that game. Look at the actual game list instead of the stats. There were mostly good ZvPs beating up on nooby protoss vZ. Andromeda has the min only and close 3rd gas. And island maps, since drop is a natural tech progression for protoss. Hey, I like that line of thinking! Most of mercury's zvp games feature good zvp players (yellow, jju, july, saferzerg) against bad pvz players (reach, rock, autumn, zeus). Sure, there are some exceptions, but that won't be an issue since andromeda has such anomalies as hyuk > free, type-b > stork (type-b's only zvp win ever), and hyvaa > jangbi. Clearly mercury's statistical imbalance is merely due to repeated mismatches featuring zvp juggernauts against mediocre pvz players. I'm pleased to say that mercury is in fact balanced zvp! Oh wait, you also had some crappy matchup analysis to go with it. I'm not sure how to even respond to the "min only favors protoss since they usually have less bases" thing. The min-only expansion most certainly does not favor protoss. It's not uncommon in pvz to have thousands of minerals in the bank with a two digit gas count, simply because protoss needs every drop of gas it can mine to win against a competent zerg. Quite a few tosses on andromeda don't even take the min-only expansion until a bit later and get a third gas as their second expansion simply because gas is that crucial. What's advantageous for protoss is a fast third gas. However, an island is not the same at all. Going for the island that quickly tips off your reaver/sair strat to the zerg (and reaver/sair is the only way to do it unless you want to die), so any advantage is lost. Unfortunately andromeda is completely wide open in the center, so the only safe way for a protoss to grab a third gas IS by an island. The game that most reveals the imbalance is jaedong versus stork from the WCG Korea finals. Stork clearly wanted no part of a straight up game on that map, so he went for a desperate goon/reaver timing attack (without taking the min-only, how about that) which failed horribly because the open nature of andromeda allowed jaedong to surround and destroy without giving stork any place to retreat to. Basically, andromeda is z > p, stop trying to fight it.
In Avidkeystamper's world, anything is possible!
it's just that avidkeystamper gets stomped
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On November 15 2008 16:42 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:41 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote:
wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ JD fans have no right to insult kal the great anymore, because your hero just bent over and took it long and hard. Kal, stop toying with mediocre zergs. Wtf Flash, stop losing to people like Tester, seriously.
Wtf jaedong stop losing to people like sangho, han and roro
LOL
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OMG ppl,stop saying that Kal is mediocre protoss.
And Jaedong is good too. But he has not enough expirience in ZvP like Savior or July.
He only knows to do 1 hatch lurker+timing hydra+lurker mixed with Mutals. His long game zvp is not good !
GJ KAL
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wait, I don't get it, if z>p, then why is Jaedong losing to Kal? Experience?
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JAEDONG had too much advantage,he killed Kal's shuttle with reavers and after that Kal was able to won.Jaedong ---> noob
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On November 15 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote:
Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me... One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage...
man what the hell i voted for you in liquibet
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Jaedong is sucking ZvP once more cos the Maestro be wanting his skill back.
Hehe.
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OMG,there so many noobs,with their opinions.I think a lot of them are C- on ICCUP.
TT so many noobsssssssssssssssss
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On November 15 2008 16:40 Disarray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 16:35 ShloobeR wrote:
for the love of god jaedong
make something that doesnt take one hit from a protoss unit to die : P he can't he was playing zerg. now, i hate to start some sort of imbalance crying, but it just doesn't make sense to me. whats zergs equivilent of storm/reaver/archon ? it just seems sooo invincible once its out and zerg has to spend 2-3x the resources on shittier caliber units to defeat it. and im tired of hearing "the zerg shouldn't let them get to that point in the game" cause thats a cop out, not an answer.
Well you're trying to justify one unit versus three very late game units. Zerg actually has the advantage late game with equal bases because they can pump out all the units they loose with ease in a short span due to 3 larve (Sauron Zerg effect) I digress though, it is countered by mixing your armies around (See Julyzerg vs Best game 3 in the osl finals). Ultraling plus defieler play is a strict way to stand off against the protoss ball late game, but guardian/hydra sniping mid-late game means they have to either build more archons then reavers which makes dark swarm more deadly.
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Wow...can't believe Jaedong pissed off such a good lead. Nice job by Kal though, I shall check out the VOD when I can~
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I cant believe how many people underestimate Kal
In many many interviews, July has stated so many times
"Players like stork and best don't scare me. They are predictable and I am confident I can beat them in a fight + mindgame. However, players like Kal are different. They constantly fuck with your mind, making you angry and slip up because of your feelings. I really hate practicing against Kal, but I have to say he was one of the best protosses I played against"
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On November 15 2008 16:39 iLoveKTF wrote:
every Lecaf loss is always nice for us KTF fans... lol
very true, im very pleased lecaf lost
GO KTF
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What the hell is up with Jaedong's decision making lately? That's the 3rd time he's played well in pvz and then completely blown the game by making a crazy decision like turtling hard in game 3 vs free, hydra drop in game 3 vs stork or mass lurkers here.
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United States1654 Posts
I think Jaedong's poor decisions lately have been costing him important games. First there was the Guardians versus Free that did no damage, and now it was the morphing of a bunch of Lurkers for no reason versus Kal and then losing them all. Perhaps his loss of confidence in his play has also decreased his confidence in clutch moments.
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guardians vs free would have done damage if free hadn't seen them coming and built more corsairs... free's observer at the south of jaedong's main won him that game.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 21:48 traced wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 17:19 OneOther wrote:On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote:
Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass.
Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions.
The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways).
The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me... One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage... man what the hell i voted for you in liquibet
lol I am going to trounce him, don't even doubt it.
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=P i was just giving you shit
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JD will climb back - he's a pure winner.
Kal is just a amazing Toss - I love his play when he plays with his head properly turned on.
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Guardian Ultra Hydra Defiler Chogoling Queen Scourge Drone obv.
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Second Lecaf's loss in a row... I guess they won't dominate the proleague as it seemed at the beginning of the season. But given that their next game is against ACE they will be 7:2 by the end of this week. Still that's really impressive record.
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United States10328 Posts
wtf backho won? wtf but good job to kal vs jaedong
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This loss is infinitely more frustrating due to the fact that Jaedong should've won. GRrr
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On November 15 2008 10:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2008 02:08 SpiralArchitect wrote:
Lecaf is monstrous and for good reason, their lineup is so deep they are like the lakers right now. They dont really have a lack of any specific race or type of player, though BackHo is hardly the Protoss that I wish for, he gets the job done. I want Soul to win this so bad but I just dont think its possible unless they get a nice ace match. I can easily see this going 2-2 but when Jaedong is put under pressure (especially when hes already played that day) he performs like a beast. 3-2 for lecaf imo. they are known as the team that has 0 depth and rides their aces. well done. uuuuuunless you really want to claim that hiya lomo backho..... dongrae? are high calibre players. but then fbh is only mediocre.
Your missing the point of depth my friend. Having high caliber players does not transfer to depth having a long list of players who can win the filler games are what they need, and thats what hiya, lomo, backho and yes even dongrae do. They arent flashy, they aren't gosu, but they win the games that matters so their ace of forGG/Lomo can come in and win. I guess KHAN is probably a bit deeper this season but I cant think of another team with such a strong bench.
P.S. - Please stop using old ass topics to troll me, all I ever see you do is trolling. Why dont you try contributing?
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On November 16 2008 09:29 ]343[ wrote:
wtf backho won? wtf but good job to kal vs jaedong
Backho isnt a bad player at all. He is a very important part of the Lecaf stacked team since he is pretty much the only protoss player on the squad. Without Backho, Lecaf would probably not be as dominant as right now.
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On November 16 2008 12:08 NonConGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 09:29 ]343[ wrote:
wtf backho won? wtf but good job to kal vs jaedong Backho isnt a bad player at all. He is a very important part of the Lecaf stacked team since he is pretty much the only protoss player on the squad. Without Backho, Lecaf would probably not be as dominant as right now.
backo almost always wins when lecaf would loose 3-1 otherwise, letting his team go for the ace
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How can anyone say Lecaf's lineup has no depth? Maybe the big names outshine everybody so much that people won't notice, but even their scrub players are usually better than other teams scrub's.
No shame in losing to STX, probably the most balanced team in PL.
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is awesome32269 Posts
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It's not an upset to lose vs stx. Of all the 4 games this week I would rate this match as the least 'upset'
MBC - ESTRO 2-3
OGN - KTF 3-0
SKT1 - WStars 1-3
STX - Lecaf - 3-2
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/pachi/banner/SPL_080930.png)
Kal < Destination > 
Calm < Harmony > 
fOrGG![[image loading]](http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3130/jdzx3.png)
