EPTNot sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ.
[PL] STX vs Lecaf - Page 21
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:01 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: What? Zerg wins about 60% on that map, which probably about equal to what you'd see over all ZvPs. Don't forget how much the huge size helps balance the early game back in the favor of non-zerg. huge map size always, always helps zergs. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:02 baubo wrote: Actually, Stork is the Andromeda specialist. He has the whole corsair/reaver/carrier/dark archon/defiler build pretty much set. :D Not sure about the other tosses, but Stork actually plays on it a lot, usually PvZ. Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:03 OneOther wrote: Andromeda is also very cheesible, which is why so many tosses lose on it. Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible. I'm going to sleep, I can't reply for at least a day. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:04 Avidkeystamper wrote: Andromeda is a big map, which makes it very uncheesible. Vertical/Horizontal distances are close, and the chokes are pretty wide, which is why it's very cheesible. And also why so many Zergs do it. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:05 OneOther wrote: Vertical/Horizontal distances are close, and the chokes are pretty wide, which is why it's very cheesible. And also why so many Zergs do it. The bases are in the corners of the map, the furthest it can be, also the map is big, aforementioned, and each base has a ramp-choke, I mean come on. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
If you don't mind me asking, what rank are you on iccup? If you understand and know the matchup ZvP pretty well, I don't see how you are actually saying P>Z on Andromeda. Come on. Is this your lack of knowledge or crazy Jaedong fanboyism? I am not even trying to defend anything, because I don't like Kal. I am just awed that you are actually claiming Z isn't favored over P on this map. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:06 Avidkeystamper wrote: The bases are in the corners of the map, the furthest it can be, also the map is big, aforementioned, and each base has a ramp-choke, I mean come on. Ramp choke doesn't help at all. Corners? How the hell does that matter? If you have ever played on Andromeda, you would know the distance from Zerg base to Protoss choke is very close vertically/horizontally. The map has a huge center...but that doesn't matter. All that cheese needs is close distance/wide choke. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
IT WORKS WELL!!! | ||
disciple
9069 Posts
On November 15 2008 16:38 onihunter wrote: wtf, Jaedong, stop losing to mediocre tosses :/ I lol'ed incredibly hard on than | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
Zerg is generally going to be getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions. The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways). The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:15 zer0das wrote: Or you could like, play a game on the map against someone of similar skill and figure out pretty quickly the maps favors Zerg a ton. The reason Protoss all go Sair/Reaver is because if they don't, the Zerg is going to doom drop with impunity at some point, and the reaver gives them the ability to harass. Zerg is generally going to be using getting 3 hatch on such a macro oriented map, and the third hatch goes at the mineral only, far before Protoss can get it. The Protoss can grab it too, but it is going to slow their early harass considerably, which just lets the Zerg take more bases. Lurkers can hit either the mineral only or the natural from really annoying positions. The "easy" to take third gas is not easy to hold without a reaver, templar, and some cannons. Dark swarm can mess that up quite a bit as well. The island expo is way, way safer between corsairs and cannons (and maybe a reaver). The other two mains are quite far away for the Protoss to take and defend without compromising their natural. Meanwhile, the Zerg just needs to sunken up their front a bit, and they essentially get two more or less free bases on top of the natural (since they need to lay down more hatches anyways). The way the game usually plays out from my experience is the Zerg gets an economic advantage from the very fast mineral only, secures a midgame lead, does any number of drop/harass antics to further that lead, and then expands like crazy, at which point it is a pain in the arse to win. Ahhh all the memories of suffering against Zergs when Andromeda was ICCup MOTW are creeping back into me... One game vs Chill the other day I had a huge ground army of 200/200 vs like 100/200 and lost because Chill used the map very well to his advantage... | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:10 OneOther wrote: GO LOOK AT SOME GAMES AND HOW NEWB ZERGS MANAGE TO BEAT GOOD PROTOSS WITH CHEESE, PLEASE As I mentioned earlier, the point about Andromeda is it gives zergs an easy hydra break opportunity early because of 3 hatch at 3 mineral patches with only 1 choke. That's why it seems like it's zerg favored overall - because zerg has a few minute window where they can press a huge advantage. Contains are much riskier, because of the way Protoss is able to reach the critical mass of 'hi I obliterate zerg' units without needing any more bases. The open map argument is true for ZvT (and PvT really), but not as much for ZvP. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 15 2008 17:22 QibingZero wrote: As I mentioned earlier, the point about Andromeda is it gives zergs an easy hydra break opportunity early because of 3 hatch at 3 mineral patches with only 1 choke. That's why it seems like it's zerg favored overall - because zerg has a few minute window where they can press a huge advantage. Contains are much riskier, because of the way Protoss is able to reach the critical mass of 'hi I obliterate zerg' units without needing any more bases. The open map argument is true for ZvT (and PvT really), but not as much for ZvP. yeah, see, that's not the only reason why Zerg is good on it though. I think zer0das covered it well. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
For theory, look at it this way: Andro by its nature forces tosses to go sair/reaver, both because of the islands and because how disadvantageous toss ground is (very easily defendable 3 bases Savior style->non sair/reaver does not grant protoss an accessible 3rd or 4th gas which is needed to combat the super rich Zerg) . They also have to prepare for a hydra break which can be very easily done or threatened at little sacrifice (at least a 3 hatch build). And note that contrary to what was said at some point or another, the zerg is not at a disadvantage if they don't hydra break. It's just a very real threat that the toss has to keep in mind and go out of their way to prepare for, provided the scouting probe is denied. Know what the number one weakness of sair/reaver is? How slow and immobile it is. The sairs must always be there to protect the shuttles. Sair/reaver cannot be in multiple places at once. Sair/reaver can be ambushed, as it is predictable and easily foreseen. So essentially, sair/reaver has great trouble of killing a lot of zerg bases at once, something normal toss ground has no issues with (dts and speed zeals are fine on their own while reavers must be supported at all times). I always tell people I teach that when playing against sair/reaver: just overexpand, they won't be able to shut them all down. And guess what Andromeda gives? A ridiculous amount of expansions. | ||
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iloveHieu
United States1919 Posts
*going to watch the ace game* | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
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Titusmaster6
United States5935 Posts
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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