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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Game 1] +Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Larva Game 1?Yes (32) 94% No (1) 3% If you have time (1) 3% 34 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Larva Game 1? (Vote): Yes
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Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Larva Game 7?Yes (12) 75% No (2) 13% If you have time (2) 13% 16 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Larva Game 7? (Vote): Yes
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On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis.
He is retired from competitive play while playing in the most competitive tournament. Seems like a contradiction.
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I’m as bit surprised by Larva playstyle. Is it me or that kind of turtle style is just off meta? Most ZvP I see these days have the Zerg player sniping HT with mutas and being on the offensive.
Happy for Bisu, though I don’t see him winning the whole thing. Will still be cheering for him.
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On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis.
This. Larva used to be the goat until a few years ago, but then he stopped playing and lost all of his skills. Lately he's been improving, but he's still a shadow of his former self.
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On October 01 2025 15:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m as bit surprised by Larva playstyle. Is it me or that kind of turtle style is just off meta? Most ZvP I see these days have the Zerg player sniping HT with mutas and being on the offensive.
Happy for Bisu, though I don’t see him winning the whole thing. Will still be cheering for him.
i wouldnt say off meta is the right term.
larva's late game is like top 1/2 in both zvp and zvt. his problem is he often struggles to get to that point, especially after his competitive break.
this makes the way he likes to play zvp more unique because the matchup generally favours zerg having priority over the map for most of the early-mid game but larva is quite happy to cede map control in favour of econ. unfortunately his opponent is the biggest hard counter to him because bisu is an absolute macro god if left unchecked. its no secret amongst all the pros that bisus ability to grow his supply is better than every other toss and thats probably what threw larva off. his recent practice games probably werent against protosses with macro optimisation as good as bisu and larva ended up droning just a little too much which led to him getting rolled.
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On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game.
somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate.
soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp.
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I don't even think Larva's retirement has anything to do with the results. He's already gotten back in his shape. The thing is, before retirement he was still kind of Bisu's bitch, losing to him a huge amount of times (like 70% or something). He was the Zerg Bisu had the least problem with. When he said he would pick Bisu in his group for ASL11, everyone was like "nice joke Larva" (even though he did beat Bisu afterwards, but it's Bo1 anyway).
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i do think bisu would have beaten larva in a bo7 even if larva was in his prime anyway, but matches like game 5 for example, i think showed that larva wasnt really up to speed yet. that was a game that larva absolutely should not have lost. the timing for bisu was more larva's mistake than bisu's clutch play
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On October 01 2025 16:50 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis. This. Larva used to be the goat until a few years ago, but then he stopped playing and lost all of his skills. Lately he's been improving, but he's still a shadow of his former self.
The goat ? He basically won a very close ASL vs Mini and retired lol. I dont ever remember him dominating everyone. Him like Soulkey was getting eliminated at early ASls cuz of zerg vs zerg. Then he beat Jaedong and few others on his way to the final. Larva was Known for playing 1000 games vs FlaSh and taking 20 lol.
Btw Game 1 What he did with the mass sunkens if Bisu just put 4 reavers to shutdown that shit.. But instead Bisu doing Bisu things decided it was more optimal to attack up ramp.
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On October 01 2025 08:12 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 02:40 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:20 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 21:23 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, I can feel the pain of Zergs during that 10-13th min power spike of Protoss when they have that kind of a death ball army and you can't be sure whether they'll hit the natural or the 3rd to put your defence.
It seems like the benefits from that sneaky 4th base of Larva didn't kick in yet for him though. Bisu probably hit the only timing for him. This is why zergs are all inning so hard early game to either get ahead or outright kill protoss. It gets really hard for zerg to snowball into solid macro game onwards from 11 min and forward on these maps. On the topic of maps, it is interesting but probably not meaningful due to miniature sample sizes that some maps have seen wild swings in win rates from ASL season 19 to 20. In ZvP: Metropolis - 50% -> 16.7% Pole Star - 60% -> 25% Radeon - 50% -> 20% There's a common theme here. Wide chokes. See larva vs bisu games? It felt pretty one sided on these maps. Bisu can just 1a2a3a4a into it or into narrower point, if larva put 80% of his army in wide chokes.
Yes, and Bisu only camped and moved out at 150 supplies and 1a2a3a'd and won. Feels like something a B rank player can do too.
Nothing to do with having a lead with Nexus first and a executing 2 base timing while Zerg took his 4th base at 9:30 (game 2), holding off an all-in attempt with just Zealots and Probes while not even losing the Gate (game 3), a base trade that could have gone Larva's way if his execution was better and he didn't forget his Lurker in the Overlord (game 4), or hitting a timing right before Zerg's sneaky base kicked in, plus Zerg decided to fight the Protoss deathball by having his small groups of army going in one by one (game 5).
Btw, out of curiosity, what chokes do you consider wide? Polestar chokes don't seem wide to me. Neither are Metropolis. Knockout's double bridges and high ground 3rd aren't narrow enough for you? The only one I can say has wide chokes is Radeon. You want chokes like Fighting Spirit's?
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On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp.
Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing.
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On October 01 2025 18:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp. Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing.
what are you talking about
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On October 01 2025 18:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp. Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing.
He said the P in PvZ is not stress free. He didn't say the Z in ZvP is stress free. How can you make a whole post countering something that's not there? This is why arguing with you is very not... stress free Eon. You constantly miss the points or get facts wrong or misremember things yet you're overly aggressive in your attitude.
Btw I don't agree with him that Soma standard game is shit. It's like saying Mini can't play macro too. They can both play standard and macro, maybe not the best of their race, but it's just that their chosen style is agression and tricky builds.
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On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis.
this is wrong though. Larva returned to competitive online gaming last november. He plays proleagues and he plays sponsor games. He started out by playing best of 21s vs pros multiple times a week in november and december and continued doing this. He played more than some of the major proleague regulars. He retired when they still used sponbang. He has 982 match entries on Eloboard. About 150 of these entries are from his retirement period where he would sometimes play some spon matches. The other 832 or so are from November until now. That is a higher amount of documented games than almost anyone else has since November.
Also the claim that Soma's macro is his weakest is dead wrong. His Macro is maybe his best aspect. He excells at it. But he also excells at tricky builds, all ins, and timing attacks. Just look at any of his online games in KCM, Proleague, or the Chinese sponsored best o sets, ultimate battle, or his ladder games.
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On October 01 2025 07:22 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2025 21:36 sas.Sziky wrote:Bisu with no mapple defense practice looks strong this is why he is my favorite Protoss player. Just not die against Soma all ins, and then win this ASL man, if Jaedong cant do it this season  I told before you can have a huge power spike at 9 if you mineral boost vs 12 if you don't. All those all ins Soma deal have a 45 second advantage. It is either do or die for protoss and soma can overcommit the protoss to defense without revealing his tech.
45 second ? oo you mean with boost u can like ~5 second erlier a pool,lair and etc as zerg perspectiva. 45 is to much man :D
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On October 01 2025 18:03 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 08:12 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 02:40 RogueTheGOAT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:20 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 21:23 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, I can feel the pain of Zergs during that 10-13th min power spike of Protoss when they have that kind of a death ball army and you can't be sure whether they'll hit the natural or the 3rd to put your defence.
It seems like the benefits from that sneaky 4th base of Larva didn't kick in yet for him though. Bisu probably hit the only timing for him. This is why zergs are all inning so hard early game to either get ahead or outright kill protoss. It gets really hard for zerg to snowball into solid macro game onwards from 11 min and forward on these maps. On the topic of maps, it is interesting but probably not meaningful due to miniature sample sizes that some maps have seen wild swings in win rates from ASL season 19 to 20. In ZvP: Metropolis - 50% -> 16.7% Pole Star - 60% -> 25% Radeon - 50% -> 20% There's a common theme here. Wide chokes. See larva vs bisu games? It felt pretty one sided on these maps. Bisu can just 1a2a3a4a into it or into narrower point, if larva put 80% of his army in wide chokes. Yes, and Bisu only camped and moved out at 150 supplies and 1a2a3a'd and won. Feels like something a B rank player can do too. Nothing to do with having a lead with Nexus first and a executing 2 base timing while Zerg took his 4th base at 9:30 (game 2), holding off an all-in attempt with just Zealots and Probes while not even losing the Gate (game 3), a base trade that could have gone Larva's way if his execution was better and he didn't forget his Lurker in the Overlord (game 4), or hitting a timing right before Zerg's sneaky base kicked in, plus Zerg decided to fight the Protoss deathball by having his small groups of army going in one by one (game 5). Btw, out of curiosity, what chokes do you consider wide? Polestar chokes don't seem wide to me. Neither are Metropolis. Knockout's double bridges and high ground 3rd aren't narrow enough for you? The only one I can say has wide chokes is Radeon. You want chokes like Fighting Spirit's?
I can assure you PoleStar is the second worst map after Radeon for z v p. It's very difficult to find a good position to engage protoss on this map. It's also almost impossible to turtle as the map is very small with a third that is quite far and difficult to defend. And yes, the "chokes" are wide.
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On October 01 2025 18:20 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 18:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp. Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing. He said the P in PvZ is not stress free. He didn't say the Z in ZvP is stress free. How can you make a whole post countering something that's not there? This is why arguing with you is very not... stress free Eon. You constantly miss the points or get facts wrong or misremember things yet you're overly aggressive in your attitude. Btw I don't agree with him that Soma standard game is shit. It's like saying Mini can't play macro too. They can both play standard and macro, maybe not the best of their race, but it's just that their chosen style is agression and tricky builds.
I was answering to this sentence. 'stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp'
You can literally say this about any matchup any race. Is not just oh poor me protoss my stress is so high playing a zerg..
Is not about arguing. Since there is nothing to argue. Every race has to worry about different strategies. is funny cuz from the zerg pov all protoss has to do to shutdown most of the 'mindgames' is just make more canons lol. While from zerg lets take Soma vs Best on Litmus. You could say oh wow zerg just decided to go 3 hatcheries before pool. is that easy. In fact from the begin what he did with the drone killing that worker scout and denying information is not easy at all. In fact most of the times when zerg attemps pulling something like that he ends up getting scouted. The amount of attention and multitasking going on to pull those early tricks are actually insane. I means is pretty obvious some can pull it others dont even bother and stick to other ways. But since you guys all resume to zerg decided to go hydras and killed protoss is the goto. There is not even a point.
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On October 01 2025 18:01 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 16:50 Magic Powers wrote:On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis. This. Larva used to be the goat until a few years ago, but then he stopped playing and lost all of his skills. Lately he's been improving, but he's still a shadow of his former self. The goat ? He basically won a very close ASL vs Mini and retired lol. I dont ever remember him dominating everyone. Him like Soulkey was getting eliminated at early ASls cuz of zerg vs zerg. Then he beat Jaedong and few others on his way to the final. Larva was Known for playing 1000 games vs FlaSh and taking 20 lol. Btw Game 1 What he did with the mass sunkens if Bisu just put 4 reavers to shutdown that shit.. But instead Bisu doing Bisu things decided it was more optimal to attack up ramp.
Larva was extremely strong. In my view he was the clear favorite against everyone other than Rush, who failed to stop him. After that I was almost 100% convinced he'd win the tournament, although Mini shocked us with his impressive skills. He made it a close final match.
If Larva had kept practicing after that, I'm convinced he would've destroyed everyone for years to come. Other players were very lucky that he went on a hiatus, because no other zerg player had such a strong macro game. He was the reason why Flash stopped doing mech transitions in every TvZ, as Larva proved that zerg was actually a clear favorite against that strategy. Towards the end of their rivalry, Flash could only beat Larva with heavy early/mid game aggression, and so the TvZ meta reverted back from mech to bio.
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On October 01 2025 18:20 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 18:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp. Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing. He said the P in PvZ is not stress free. He didn't say the Z in ZvP is stress free. How can you make a whole post countering something that's not there? This is why arguing with you is very not... stress free Eon. You constantly miss the points or get facts wrong or misremember things yet you're overly aggressive in your attitude. Btw I don't agree with him that Soma standard game is shit. It's like saying Mini can't play macro too. They can both play standard and macro, maybe not the best of their race, but it's just that their chosen style is agression and tricky builds.
Hero is the only top zerg who can't macro properly, and among the top protoss players they all have strong macro. I don't know what people are smoking calling Soma's macro bad. His macro isn't god tier, but it's very strong. He wins a lot of late game scenarios, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't watched his games.
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On October 01 2025 19:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 18:20 TMNT wrote:On October 01 2025 18:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 01 2025 17:51 evilfatsh1t wrote:On October 01 2025 07:27 Shinokuki wrote:On October 01 2025 03:02 TMNT wrote:On September 30 2025 23:58 Shinokuki wrote:On September 30 2025 23:51 TornadoSteve wrote:
When im allinin, its usually to outright kill my opponent, or get ahead. This sounds about right The issue is that they are "forced" to because if they don't protoss is usually ahead in these macro games. It gets real easy for protoss to just macro up to 140-150 psi and expand to 3 bases if z also tries to do the same. P can 1a2a3a4a5a into wide chokes on these modern maps and get some really good engagements and snowball into 4/5 base protoss with 2/2 upgrades. This is why soma has worked so hard on mineral optimization and crafted a well thoughout builds to kill protoss in early mid games or mind trick protoss into being defensive. No bro. I don't know how you got it in a total opposite way like that. Protoss is only ahead during the 10-13th minute if they do some damage to Zerg in the earlier phases, or by a BO luck. Like a sneaky Zealot getting some Drone early on, or a pre-storm Zealot timing that deals some damage, or a good trade between Corsairs vs Muta/Scourge, or a failed Hydra bust attempt from Z. Basically, race A is ahead of race B at the x minute because because player A deals some damage to player B y minutes earlier, which is true in every matchup. There's no games where Protoss and Zerg both play safe, just macro up, and no one does anything to the other, and Protoss can naturally get ahead like you described. If that were the case, why would Protoss players even bother with Gate expand? Just FFE, build Cannons to be safe, camp and macro until you get 150 supplies and push out lol. And the global PvZ win rate would be ~55% instead of ~45% like currently lol. You're just so tunnel visioned into those games where Protoss crushes Zerg at their power spike, because well, you're a Zerg supporter and can only see the difficulties of Zerg in the matchup, like the problem with maps you always claim. Why can't we have mineral lines that don't allow Zealot to hide? Why can't we have narrow chokes to defend? Basically, why mapmakers don't make the matchup easier for us? I'm really curious what your mmr is and how you keep refuting what every z pros are saying right now. You really don't seem to understand zvp that well. The games where they go 50:50 are games that z/p cross spawn and constantly scout each other and z ends up making only 6 lings and protoss goes straight to stargate before cannon. See the games snow played vs soma today (FYI snow destroyed soma 7-2 as soma seemed to purposefuly go standard to get ready for bisu matches. Soma did say he will play 30 games every day until the day of the match to increase his mechanics and he has ALWAYS said he lacks standard macro game. It's crazy how many mineral lines allow for zealots to hide and let's not even mention wide choke points which is the biggest culprit. You see effort, larva, and soma all doing crazy styles to not let it get to standard macro game. Foreigners think soma played so well but the sad reality is that he needed to do this in order to be ahead because it sure is easy for protoss to 1a2a3a into wide chokepoint and get insane advantage. For example, see game 7 or 8 of snow vs soma BO9 (forgot which game it was but it was on polestar). Snow lost 2 DTs for FREE in the beginning and then soma opted to go standard and soma lost so much at wide chokepoint, attempting to defend both his nat and 4th with like 20 lurkers. Snow killed 20 lurkers and expanded twice. Soma had no answer for such eco disadvantage and the fact that he lost all his gas heavy units. It's really crushing as zerg to play like this where the other race can play macro standard game, stress free while zerg has to be the one initiating the variance play so that it doesn't fall into typical standard game. somas standard macro play is indeed his weakest part of his game, and yet you rely on that as evidence that protoss is generally favoured in a macro race against zerg and zergs just crumble to protoss deathball? ok mate. soma plays like that because his standard game is shit. he tries mind games or weird builds and tries to greed as much leverage he can get out of any lead in order to snowball his game, because once again, his standard macro game is shit. and when the benchmark for a good toss in a standard macro game is bisu, then yeah, its understandable that zergs try to punish protoss earlier. but the reality is, no other toss has a standard game as clean as bisus anyway. snow and mini arent known for optimisation and macro, and best doesnt have bisus unit control. also zvp will never change in that priority is pretty much always with zerg and the onus is on protoss to find out what zerg is doing at all times and respond perfectly. its far easier to make a mistake as a protoss or straight up die to a build you didnt even see coming. stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp. Then you go on ladder make 2 gateways ur op last scout and u get a free win without a sweat haha. Stress free LMAO. You are so funny.Or my favorite one. You doing well as a zerg then realized all your drones are gone by 1 DT. I mean i can type a book of how stressful zvp is. Like for example shit. play at 350 APM THE WHOLE FREAKING GAME BTW. ANd then look a second away and your whole army is gone to storms. Yeah sure stress free. ANd you can do this about any matchup. Starcraft is not stress free.Stop playing. He said the P in PvZ is not stress free. He didn't say the Z in ZvP is stress free. How can you make a whole post countering something that's not there? This is why arguing with you is very not... stress free Eon. You constantly miss the points or get facts wrong or misremember things yet you're overly aggressive in your attitude. Btw I don't agree with him that Soma standard game is shit. It's like saying Mini can't play macro too. They can both play standard and macro, maybe not the best of their race, but it's just that their chosen style is agression and tricky builds. I was answering to this sentence. ' stress free is the last thing i would say to describe a protoss playing a zvp' You can literally say this about any matchup any race. Is not just oh poor me protoss my stress is so high playing a zerg.. Is not about arguing. Since there is nothing to argue. Every race has to worry about different strategies. is funny cuz from the zerg pov all protoss has to do to shutdown most of the 'mindgames' is just make more canons lol. While from zerg lets take Soma vs Best on Litmus. You could say oh wow zerg just decided to go 3 hatcheries before pool. is that easy. In fact from the begin what he did with the drone killing that worker scout and denying information is not easy at all. In fact most of the times when zerg attemps pulling something like that he ends up getting scouted. The amount of attention and multitasking going on to pull those early tricks are actually insane. I means is pretty obvious some can pull it others dont even bother and stick to other ways. But since you guys all resume to zerg decided to go hydras and killed protoss is the goto. There is not even a point.
that sentence was in response to shinokukis claim that protoss can in fact play a standard macro game "stress-free". learn to read.
and no, protoss cant just simply 'make more cannons' as a solution to any trick zerg might try to pull. its as stupid as saying zerg should just build a spore/sunken at every base to prevent dts or build 2 sunkens at each base to prevent +1 zealot push
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On October 01 2025 18:28 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2025 15:10 Bonyth wrote:
Larva retired from competetive online gaming. I think using his quarter-final game against Bisu for the sake of balance talk is just disrespectful to other zergs that compete on a daily basis. this is wrong though. Larva returned to competitive online gaming last november. He plays proleagues and he plays sponsor games. He started out by playing best of 21s vs pros multiple times a week in november and december and continued doing this. He played more than some of the major proleague regulars. He retired when they still used sponbang. He has 982 match entries on Eloboard. About 150 of these entries are from his retirement period where he would sometimes play some spon matches. The other 832 or so are from November until now. That is a higher amount of documented games than almost anyone else has since November. Also the claim that Soma's macro is his weakest is dead wrong. His Macro is maybe his best aspect. He excells at it. But he also excells at tricky builds, all ins, and timing attacks. Just look at any of his online games in KCM, Proleague, or the Chinese sponsored best o sets, ultimate battle, or his ladder games.
his macro isnt his best aspect. his best aspect is his early game. hes insanely good at setting himself up for a mid game where he doesnt go in behind, and then he just rides that momentum. that comes from his mind games, builds and all that.
guys like larva and soulkey are players that actually have great macro games and they excel off that. they know how to grind games out even from worse positions. soma is different where his entire playstyle revolves around not going into the mid game in a worse position at all.
when i say soma's macro is shit obviously im not saying he doesnt know how to press sh on all his hatcheries like some b tier ladder player. his macro is shit in the context of all the pros where there are other zerg players that are able to come back from worse positions in the mid-late game more than he does.
larva and soma are basically opposite ends of the spectrum; larva having weak early games and struggling to go into the mid game ahead but being an absolute god at late game army management, and soma being the player that relies on his early game advantage to carry him smoothly through the rest of his games.
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