EPTOn September 18 2025 19:43 TMNT wrote:
What are you talking about actually?
I feel like this is a super oversimplification of the game which is either not true or only applicable to low rank games.
How can going all in with Mutas vs Terran doesn't hurt the Zerg at all. That's a shocking statement. If you don't trade Mutas with MM/Turrets efficiently, one counter push and they stim past your Sunkens. If you do nothing with your Mutas, they lose value significantly once Irradiate is out.
The same dynamics can't be applied in 3H Hydra vs Protoss. Cannons are twice more expensive than Turrets. Terran doesn't have to delay Barracks or lose +1 upgrade for Turrets. If you do nothing with Hydras, they are still the mainstay of your army later.
Throwing Zealots at Zerg doesn't usually pay for itself. It's all about whether you can trade efficiently or not, i.e. if you can sneak a Zealot out undetected, or have better positioning/micro. Zergs at the top level don't overbuild Lings for the sake of it like a D ranker. You can find many games at pro level where Protoss is in deep shit later on if their first Zealots get caught without trading well.
In a way the Zealots vs Lings dynamics in early game PvZ is similar to the Mutas vs MM/Turrets dynamics in ZvT, i.e. you get the better trade, hence getting ahead, by having better skills than your opponent. You talked as if just by producing some Zealots/Mutas and send them across the map without achieving anything doesn't hurt the Protoss/Zerg.
What are you talking about actually?
I feel like this is a super oversimplification of the game which is either not true or only applicable to low rank games.
How can going all in with Mutas vs Terran doesn't hurt the Zerg at all. That's a shocking statement. If you don't trade Mutas with MM/Turrets efficiently, one counter push and they stim past your Sunkens. If you do nothing with your Mutas, they lose value significantly once Irradiate is out.
The same dynamics can't be applied in 3H Hydra vs Protoss. Cannons are twice more expensive than Turrets. Terran doesn't have to delay Barracks or lose +1 upgrade for Turrets. If you do nothing with Hydras, they are still the mainstay of your army later.
Throwing Zealots at Zerg doesn't usually pay for itself. It's all about whether you can trade efficiently or not, i.e. if you can sneak a Zealot out undetected, or have better positioning/micro. Zergs at the top level don't overbuild Lings for the sake of it like a D ranker. You can find many games at pro level where Protoss is in deep shit later on if their first Zealots get caught without trading well.
In a way the Zealots vs Lings dynamics in early game PvZ is similar to the Mutas vs MM/Turrets dynamics in ZvT, i.e. you get the better trade, hence getting ahead, by having better skills than your opponent. You talked as if just by producing some Zealots/Mutas and send them across the map without achieving anything doesn't hurt the Protoss/Zerg.
If you try to attack with hydras and don't kill the protoss and you're still on 20 drones (made two more hatcheries while spending all the gas on hydra) you're dead
Just watch any SK game where he tries the all-in attack and protoss had enough not to die - even he can't macro out of it. If you don't ATTACK with the hydra and the Protoss made his +1 offset next to his cannons, that's not an "all-in" at all
So let's talk about two different scenarios:
1. Zerg makes 8-12 hydra and immediately drones and goes lair, never jumps on cannons and picks off only the gateway. This is just a bog standard pressure build hoping Protoss makes 7 cannons instead of like 3
2. Zerg makes 30+ hydra and attacks the Protoss cannons - if the Zerg fails to do any damage he's dead. If he trades well and Protoss has to sacrifice probes to live he's even, but he's really looking to kill the Protoss. This is not risk-free at all, it would be crazy to make 30+ hydra and not attack because they won't trade well against storm (you don't have muta sniping templars because you didn't get Lair quick)
There's a 1.5 scenario where the Zerg just wants Protoss to make more cannons and to kill the cannons protecting the +1 upgrade, but makes more like 20 hydra. But in this case it's based on micro and positioning, just like getting muta against Terran. If the Protoss loses +1 and has to rebuild cannons, it's a Zerg advantage, if the Zerg runs up into a bad engage with the cannons and doesn't get it anyway, it's Protoss advantaged.
In the same way, mass muta can trade well vs. turrets and the Zerg can build mass sunkens against the M&M pressure (like Soma did) or they can make lings and clean up the ball (Soulkey style)
at the top level, pros ALWAYS send zealots against Zerg
it's considered disadvantaged if you do not do it
