[ASL20] Ro16 Group D

On September 16 2025 19:44 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Speed more like...Speed 2

On September 16 2025 20:55 Rainalcar wrote:
Poor read from light. If he stayed defensive, he wins.

On September 16 2025 20:58 Just_a_Moth wrote:

I thought he would break the sunkens. I mean guess he did, but he couldn't any real damage done.

On September 16 2025 21:15 RowdierBob wrote:
wtf is Xun always going on about with ‘tempo’?

On September 16 2025 18:33 Peeano wrote:
If those guys care enough Speed is not winning more than 1 game today. Please make it so.

On September 16 2025 21:19 konadora wrote:
Light vs Larva gonna be tough for Larva imo

On September 16 2025 21:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:


don't know, light has such a slow start when he plays TvZ he might drop a set before he gets serious, hopefully the soma series warmed him up.

On September 16 2025 21:19 Peeano wrote:

Easy.

On September 16 2025 20:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't soma the reason behind the phrase OgreZergGamer?

as in tastosis coined it during a soma game

On September 16 2025 21:33 konadora wrote:
there's no way Larva is getting with a no pool 3 hatch... on Dominator no less

On September 16 2025 21:53 konadora wrote:
ever since Light disappeared for a long time due to his wife complaining, his performance has really dropped

On September 16 2025 21:58 RogerChillingworth wrote:


LOL. Wives, man.
Light really has looked weak for a while. All the Terrans slumping.

On September 16 2025 22:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:
valks just hanging like dead weight bro just kill some ovies or something

On September 16 2025 21:00 Sorusaba wrote:
Imagine a universe where BarrackS is the only terran in the ro8...

On September 16 2025 22:06 BLinD-RawR wrote:


wasn't effort the problem there?

On September 16 2025 22:14 TMNT wrote:
I've never seen Light showing that much emotion on camera. He's always been a poker face guy. He looks like he's so fed up with Starcraft today. Wouldn't be surprised if he takes another long break after this.

On September 16 2025 22:09 konadora wrote:
Terrans really need to step up, their play is getting too predictable

1-1-1 is 100% figured out
8 rax is easily countered

a Bisu type of revolution is needed, or they gotta dig into some of the older builds

On September 16 2025 22:16 RogerChillingworth wrote:


So many variations of 1-1-1 though.
Need Royal to do a bit better. I think Rush is too predictable.
Would have liked to see 1 or 2 of these amateur Terrans make it instead of the seeded laurel-resters, although they play more modern mechanical styles afaik.
sSak entering some god mode, Royal, FlaSh, one or two others... would be fine.

On September 16 2025 22:13 Rainalcar wrote:
My guess!

Barracks Mini
Bisu Effort
Snow Larva
Soma Best

Absolute favorite to win if he can avoid zvz is Soma.

On September 16 2025 22:24 Rainalcar wrote:
I would expect Mini, but Barracks has a chance.
Snow, at least I hope
Soma for sure
Bisu Larva is a tossup

On September 16 2025 22:09 LightSpectra wrote:
I would honestly rather watch a PvP and ZvZ gauntlet than a dozen hydra bust games in a row tbh

On September 16 2025 22:28 Rainalcar wrote:
Anyone remembers protoss wining a bo7 pvz?

On September 16 2025 22:30 BoesFX wrote:

Best vs Queen

On September 16 2025 22:43 Rainalcar wrote:


True, nice!

Hope remains while the company is true

On September 16 2025 22:06 barcodejester wrote:
damn 1 terran in top 8. the era of zerg will continue i suppose. getting kinda boring with zerg dominating everything

On September 16 2025 23:05 TMNT wrote:
Expect some heated debates here next weeks since we have 3 PvZ series lol.

On September 16 2025 23:21 LightSpectra wrote:



"90% of PvZ games being a hydra bust or cannon/zealot rush fucking sucks" is what we should be talking about

On September 16 2025 23:21 LightSpectra wrote:


"PvZ is imbalanced" isn't even worth discussing anymore, the statistics speak for themselves.

"90% of PvZ games being a hydra bust or cannon/zealot rush fucking sucks" is what we should be talking about

On September 16 2025 23:21 LightSpectra wrote:


"90% of PvZ games being a hydra bust or cannon/zealot rush fucking sucks" is what we should be talking about

[B]On September 16 2025 23:27 Shinokuki wrote:
can't wait to prove TMNT wrong when protoss wins 2/3 next week

On September 16 2025 23:31 RogerChillingworth wrote:



Definitely better than talking about balance. The map discussion is more interesting to me, though. Maps and adjusting the veto rules in tournaments. If every season we can get solid, interesting maps that encourage meta shifts and offer some cool stuff for players to chew on, I can see a lot of minor issues being solved all at once.

On September 16 2025 23:40 TMNT wrote:

That's not how you prove me or anyone else wrong lol.

By that same principle, you can say that since Soulkey beat Protoss multiple times to win ASL, ZvP is imba.

On September 16 2025 23:45 LightSpectra wrote:


I'm not clear how a map is supposed to discourage hydra busts without inadvertently screwing TvZ or PvT balance. Like, Pole Star is bad for hydra busting but it's fucking awful for PvT.

On September 16 2025 22:59 TMNT wrote:
Rain beat Soma in a Bo7 in his first season coming back too.

If Bisu/Larva can't knock Soma out, he'll eat the Protoss players from the other bracket. Bisu is actually the only Protoss who has a winning record (or maybe it was 50/50) against Soma so he has the best chance. Soma vs Snow is 65/35 in win rate. I think similar for Mini.

Btw, Best has no chance.

Ironically, if Bisu knocks Soma out and faces Snow/Mini in the finals, well...

On September 17 2025 00:15 iopq wrote:
Where are all the Soma-is-overrated people now?

On September 17 2025 00:15 iopq wrote:
Where are all the Soma-is-overrated people now?

On September 17 2025 01:46 88)trAncE wrote:
Bisu will be in final

On September 17 2025 01:46 88)trAncE wrote:
Bisu will be in final

On September 17 2025 02:01 M2 wrote:

Well Soma is definitely not overrated, its crazy to think otherwise, however, in regards to these games, he won vs I am coming from a long hiatus Lavra and I don't know what I am doing here today Light. Not exactly a very stable basis for conclusions if you ask me

On September 17 2025 04:09 Vasoline73 wrote:
Kind of a crazy Ro8.

I’m expecting Barracks to get rolled by Mini 4-1 but I hope I’m wrong and that it’s a close series.

All the other series seem 50/50ish to me. Maybe Bisu is favored vs Larva but it’s been a long time since he’s made a deep run in a starleague so…. we’ll see.

If you put a gun to my head…

Barracks < Mini
Snow < Effort
Soma < Best
Bisu < Larva

On September 17 2025 04:09 Vasoline73 wrote:
Kind of a crazy Ro8.

I’m expecting Barracks to get rolled by Mini 4-1 but I hope I’m wrong and that it’s a close series.

All the other series seem 50/50ish to me. Maybe Bisu is favored vs Larva but it’s been a long time since he’s made a deep run in a starleague so…. we’ll see.

If you put a gun to my head…

Barracks < Mini
Snow < Effort
Soma < Best
Bisu < Larva

On September 17 2025 04:55 RogerChillingworth wrote:



Gun to your head and you're goin with THAT? Hope it's not loaded, brother.
Agreed about Mini vs Barracks though, except I do hope Barracks gets rolled. I hope it's 4 to -1 and Mini wins every game with the first zealot. Literal steaming crater in the studio where the booth used to be.

I dno about you guys but ASL keeps my mind off the end of the world. Need 3 of these a year.

On September 17 2025 05:02 mtcn77 wrote:

Are you McAfee camp, or bitcoin camp? Moneros are the end of the world currency! Totootoo! Bitcoin is fluff.

On September 07 2025 00:10 mtcn77 wrote:

I disagree. I said it before, mapmakers can't manipulate matchup weights. Best they can do is increase distance in which case better players exploit it better. You get impossible builds like hatchery first.

On September 17 2025 06:48 Highgamer wrote:

Is this some kind of inside-joke or did he just write Calm's name wrong? If s. o. could explain/translate plz. Thx

On September 16 2025 23:45 LightSpectra wrote:


I'm not clear how a map is supposed to discourage hydra busts without inadvertently screwing TvZ or PvT balance. Like, Pole Star is bad for hydra busting but it's fucking awful for PvT.

On September 17 2025 16:34 gravity wrote:

I wonder if matchup-specific maps would work? (would need to ban Random of course, but nobody plays that anyway).

On September 17 2025 09:30 Lazyer wrote:
Games today were great, though Light was playing kinda strangely in TvZ. Larva showing he can clean house just as well as when he retired, the 4pool was funny af.

I'm in on Barracks making it to the finals, then losing. Gotta put my points where my heart is. The four Protosses making it from the Ro24 all the way to Ro8 is amazing, the legend of the fall is here, but I don't know if it'll pull thru for a champ even though it's been years since our last Protoss champion.

Barracks > Mini
Effort > Snow
soma > Best
Bisu > Larva

Barracks > Effort
soma > Bisu

soma > Barracks

It's soma's ASL!!! He is BACK

On September 17 2025 23:44 kidleaderr wrote:
light has always been one of the most overrated terrans

On September 17 2025 23:44 kidleaderr wrote:
light has always been one of the most overrated terrans

On September 16 2025 23:27 M2 wrote:

What should we talk about it? Its the only all in strat in the whole game which does not hurt the aggressor when it does not work.

On September 17 2025 22:03 Kraekkling wrote:
soma is about to enter his bonjwa phase

On September 18 2025 00:08 Miragee wrote:
I cannot believe Larva won 2-0 over Light. Dang.

Those drawings for the Ro8 must have been close to the worst possible outcome for the protoss players, except for Bisu maybe. My predictions are:

Barracks<Mini
Snow<Effort
Soma>Best
Bisu>Larva

But each match could go either way imho because Mini is so volatile and Bisu tends to suck vs tricky plays...

On September 18 2025 14:40 iopq wrote:


What are you talking about? Going all-in muta vs. Terran usually doesn't hurt the Zerg at all, when Terran recovers the Zerg just shrugs and makes a hydra den and queen's nest.

The same way a Protoss is FORCED into a bunch of cannons, the Terran is FORCED into a bunch of turrets even if the Zerg does nothing special with muta.

By the same token, just throwing zealots at the Zerg usually forces so many lings it pays for itself, even if you kill no drones. Just the lost mining time running them away from the third or natural and zergling losses from having to kill them behind minerals is already worth it.

This whole game is about pressuring your opponent while getting ahead behind it. Nobody plays NR 10 anymore

On September 18 2025 19:43 TMNT wrote:
. Terran doesn't have to delay Barracks

On September 18 2025 19:43 TMNT wrote:

What are you talking about actually?

I feel like this is a super oversimplification of the game which is either not true or only applicable to low rank games.

How can going all in with Mutas vs Terran doesn't hurt the Zerg at all. That's a shocking statement. If you don't trade Mutas with MM/Turrets efficiently, one counter push and they stim past your Sunkens. If you do nothing with your Mutas, they lose value significantly once Irradiate is out.

The same dynamics can't be applied in 3H Hydra vs Protoss. Cannons are twice more expensive than Turrets. Terran doesn't have to delay Barracks or lose +1 upgrade for Turrets. If you do nothing with Hydras, they are still the mainstay of your army later.

Throwing Zealots at Zerg doesn't usually pay for itself. It's all about whether you can trade efficiently or not, i.e. if you can sneak a Zealot out undetected, or have better positioning/micro. Zergs at the top level don't overbuild Lings for the sake of it like a D ranker. You can find many games at pro level where Protoss is in deep shit later on if their first Zealots get caught without trading well.

In a way the Zealots vs Lings dynamics in early game PvZ is similar to the Mutas vs MM/Turrets dynamics in ZvT, i.e. you get the better trade, hence getting ahead, by having better skills than your opponent. You talked as if just by producing some Zealots/Mutas and send them across the map without achieving anything doesn't hurt the Protoss/Zerg.

On September 19 2025 00:29 Artas1984 wrote:
Love how Larva proved every caster wrong about his round of 8 outcome! LARVA! Lim Hong Gyu! NR. 1 TOP ZERG - that is how he used to call himself before winning his ASL!

Predicted ASL20 finals - footclap chad gamer (Snow) vs. footstar chad gamer (Larva)!

On September 19 2025 10:36 Cricketer12 wrote:

Calling the guy famous for 20 kill reavers bland is certainly a take.

On September 19 2025 11:12 Cricketer12 wrote:

You're changing the goalpost. I commented on you calling him bland. Blandness has no correlation to skill level.

On September 18 2025 19:43 TMNT wrote:

What are you talking about actually?

I feel like this is a super oversimplification of the game which is either not true or only applicable to low rank games.

How can going all in with Mutas vs Terran doesn't hurt the Zerg at all. That's a shocking statement. If you don't trade Mutas with MM/Turrets efficiently, one counter push and they stim past your Sunkens. If you do nothing with your Mutas, they lose value significantly once Irradiate is out.

The same dynamics can't be applied in 3H Hydra vs Protoss. Cannons are twice more expensive than Turrets. Terran doesn't have to delay Barracks or lose +1 upgrade for Turrets. If you do nothing with Hydras, they are still the mainstay of your army later.

Throwing Zealots at Zerg doesn't usually pay for itself. It's all about whether you can trade efficiently or not, i.e. if you can sneak a Zealot out undetected, or have better positioning/micro. Zergs at the top level don't overbuild Lings for the sake of it like a D ranker. You can find many games at pro level where Protoss is in deep shit later on if their first Zealots get caught without trading well.

In a way the Zealots vs Lings dynamics in early game PvZ is similar to the Mutas vs MM/Turrets dynamics in ZvT, i.e. you get the better trade, hence getting ahead, by having better skills than your opponent. You talked as if just by producing some Zealots/Mutas and send them across the map without achieving anything doesn't hurt the Protoss/Zerg.

On September 19 2025 15:32 iopq wrote:
If you try to attack with hydras and don't kill the protoss and you're still on 20 drones (made two more hatcheries while spending all the gas on hydra) you're dead

Just watch any SK game where he tries the all-in attack and protoss had enough not to die - even he can't macro out of it. If you don't ATTACK with the hydra and the Protoss made his +1 offset next to his cannons, that's not an "all-in" at all

On September 19 2025 17:07 TMNT wrote:
The correct statement is "it's the only strat in the game with the potential to kill immediately but the aggressor still has the option to back off and transition to a macro game".

On September 19 2025 17:45 iopq wrote:


Making 20 muta vs. Terran is exactly like this, you can be very aggressive with it, or you can put on pressure and transition

A quick +1 corsair/zealot timing is also exactly like this, you can either kill the zerg or just supply block him so he can't drone after the attack

and don't tell me we don't see wins like this in the ASL

On September 19 2025 17:51 TMNT wrote:

If they are "exactly" like 3H Hydra, why don't we see more Terran/Zerg dying to "Muta bust" and "Zealot bust".

If you're using this logic, basically any build where you make units and attack fits the description.

Once again, it's super oversimplification.

On September 20 2025 01:10 goody153 wrote:
Soma #1 seed in not surprising

Larva just reminded me why he won an ASL back then lol

This seasons R16 is kinda amazing

On September 19 2025 23:19 Shinokuki wrote:
TMNT forgot about 8rax which is the most ultimate "only strat in the game with the potential to kill but agressor has literally infinite advantages." Its pretty hard to see 973 these days and you get to see pretty uninformed posters here, still claiming 973 is still this "mythical" build that can always destroy protoss. Soma doesn't even upload any guides on 973 anymore because it's hard as hell to execute it. 8 RAX literally has all the upsides.

On September 20 2025 05:36 TMNT wrote:

Fair point about 8 Rax. I did forget about it. It is a build that if not successful, the game is still playable for Terran (in most cases). However its potential to kill is far less below 3H Hydra. It relies on the Zerg opening to deal damage. A simple Pool first opening counters it. It can be scouted. And even in Hatch first opening Zerg can rely on micro to hold (albeit more difficult for the Z). Compare that to a Hydra bust where no amount of micro can save you and there's no reliable way to scout?

Soma doesn't upload guides about 973 anymore is no proof lol. Their guides are for ladder players anyway, not progamers.

On September 22 2025 09:22 FataLe wrote:
Hey guys I don't watch Brood War but do sometimes follow the results. Would anyone kindly summarise why SoulKey had an early exit?

On September 19 2025 17:51 TMNT wrote:

If they are "exactly" like 3H Hydra, why don't we see more Terran/Zerg dying to "Muta bust" and "Zealot bust".

On September 22 2025 09:22 FataLe wrote:
Hey guys I don't watch Brood War but do sometimes follow the results. Would anyone kindly summarise why SoulKey had an early exit?

On September 23 2025 16:36 iopq wrote:


Because he was actually lucky to win so many in a row. What people don't remember is in the ZvZ finals he had more build order wins. If his opponent went a different build even once he would have lost. Getting Sharp as the finals opponent was also lucky. Around finals time he lost in an online match to Light 1-4.

He barely beat BeSt as well. BeSt could play differently in just ONE game of the series and take it.