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On April 29 2025 02:41 mOnion wrote:Honestly more embarrassing for Queen than the BCM loss. No shot a Zerg should lose a Bo7 to a Toss today. And it still took mostly luck for it to happen. Very impressed by Best, always knew he had a chance, but unfortunately requires misplay by Zerg and luck, which he got! Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 01:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
A little cringe to see all those HT picked off for free. Seen this exact thing happen every PvZ this decade, Toss has basically no defense against it. Hardly cringe
least accurate take of the day ngl.
Zergs lose Bo5-9 to protoss all the time. It is not out of the ordinary. Its not weird lol.
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On April 29 2025 02:41 mOnion wrote:Honestly more embarrassing for Queen than the BCM loss. No shot a Zerg should lose a Bo7 to a Toss today. And it still took mostly luck for it to happen. Very impressed by Best, always knew he had a chance, but unfortunately requires misplay by Zerg and luck, which he got! Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 01:52 RogerChillingworth wrote:
A little cringe to see all those HT picked off for free. Seen this exact thing happen every PvZ this decade, Toss has basically no defense against it. Hardly cringe
Dark Archon works pretty damn well. Corsair are also a possibility, and you can even go for speed shuttles.
I don’t know what it is with absolutely trying to get HT go full pedestrian with nothing but goons to zone out those mutas.
I think DA are going to be the next big thing in PvZ. They need baby sitting, but maelstrom and feedback are insanely good spells.
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Zero really underperformed, let's be honest, his build orders were shit. On top of that the win on Eclipse is almost pure luck, thinking Best was going 2 gates, putting super late third, he comitted to zerglings and it just happened to work since Best never expected this. Also, his 9pool speed ling into lair was awful, this shit never works. Of course Best would instantly bypass corsaire and makes mass gates. The only time I saw an ex-pro spamming this build was Hero on fish server just to level up to D/C rank quickly and at least he had the decency to transit to 4 hatch hydra instead.
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I gotta say I haven't been this excited for an ASL since forever. Don't know why. There's something in the air.
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On April 28 2025 15:21 Lazyer wrote:
Cant see Best making it out ; -; ASL title forever out of his reach with all these strong Zergs around.
I stand so sorely correct, he fkin KILLED IT TODAY
Legendary for bringing out Arbiters in PvZ, absolute mad lad.
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 29 2025 06:23 iFU.pauline wrote:
Zero really underperformed, let's be honest, his build orders were shit. On top of that the win on Eclipse is almost pure luck, thinking Best was going 2 gates, putting super late third, he comitted to zerglings and it just happened to work since Best never expected this. Also, his 9pool speed ling into lair was awful, this shit never works. Of course Best would instantly bypass corsaire and makes mass gates. The only time I saw an ex-pro spamming this build was Hero on fish server just to level up to D/C rank quickly and at least he had the decency to transit to 4 hatch hydra instead.
yeah its a common understanding amongst top zerg now that 9 pool speed is a very poor (literally) opening BO and has a low winrate on any map that isn't 2p
as long as the protoss isnt going nexus first, its considered a BO loss already
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Holy
fucking
shit
This will go down as one of the greatest PvZs of all time. Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over. The Arbiter game was one of the greatest failed plays ever. He would have absolutely won that game if he had kept his observer alive on the 3rd recall or recalled the 4th instead. And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past.
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Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades).
That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light.
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What a fun series to watch. Easily one of the most entertaining PvZ series in ASL history. Even just that Death Valley game alone made it a banger.
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Just watch the games. I did not expect Best prepared this series. He must trained with Mini. The arbiter play is the beauty of bw.
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On April 29 2025 14:08 HolySmokes wrote:
Holy
fucking
shit
This will go down as one of the greatest PvZs of all time. Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over. The Arbiter game was one of the greatest failed plays ever. He would have absolutely won that game if he had kept his observer alive on the 3rd recall or recalled the 4th instead. And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past.
Steady there. The Arbiter build is just a surprise mf one off build designed for that map. No way it can become the PvZ meta. Like Bonyth said Best essentially did an all in on 3 bases and in fact it helped that Queen was expanding like a mad man. Even in the next game on that map, Zerg will watch out for the Arbiter.
Similarly, the other builds are situational, combined with spawning luck and build choice of Queen, that led to Best hitting jackpot. It's no reliable way to play PvZ. It indeed looks like Best was taking advices from Mini yesterday.
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On April 29 2025 17:32 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 14:08 HolySmokes wrote:
Holy
fucking
shit
This will go down as one of the greatest PvZs of all time. Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over. The Arbiter game was one of the greatest failed plays ever. He would have absolutely won that game if he had kept his observer alive on the 3rd recall or recalled the 4th instead. And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past. Steady there. The Arbiter build is just a surprise mf one off build designed for that map. No way it can become the PvZ meta. Like Bonyth said Best essentially did an all in on 3 bases and in fact it helped that Queen was expanding like a mad man. Even in the next game on that map, Zerg will watch out for the Arbiter. Similarly, the other builds are situational, combined with spawning luck and build choice of Queen, that led to Best hitting jackpot. It's no reliable way to play PvZ. It indeed looks like Best was taking advices from Mini yesterday.
Steady yourself. No one said the Arbiter strat was going to be a standard way to play PvZ. Obviously it was prepped for that one map, in the context of a series. But it shows the viability of the unit in the right context. Best just showed a ton of creativity and ingenuity with his race against his opponent and played a great series, which is the real takeaway here.
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Yeah but the problem is we'll probably see 1 or 2 PvZ games on that map for, like, ever. That's why it's not the "meta".
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On April 29 2025 14:52 Bonyth wrote:
Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades).
That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light.
Weird take. I think you are too stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on in each game with the little changes that Best was pulling that was throwing Queen off his standard openers. He didn't do what you said because he didn't have to or it wasn't suited to the strat he was trying to execute. No one calls a 3 base TvP push an all in, its just what T builds up towards, I saw the same idea here. But I guess one man's failed timing attacks is another man's all in.
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On April 29 2025 22:50 HolySmokes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 14:52 Bonyth wrote:
Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades).
That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light. Weird take. I think you are too stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on in each game with the little changes that Best was pulling that was throwing Queen off his standard openers. He didn't do what you said because he didn't have to or it wasn't suited to the strat he was trying to execute. No one calls a 3 base TvP push an all in, its just what T builds up towards, I saw the same idea here. But I guess one man's failed timing attacks is another man's all in.
Obviously because it's different to a 3 base TvP push. A Terran can both push on 3 bases while expanding on normal maps. Best limited his choice to expand further than 3 bases because (a) of the map and (b) of his tech choice. A more correct analogy is Terran pushing Protoss with both ground army and Battle Cruisers.
But you don't even have to compare to Terran because what Best did in that game was essentially playing PvT with both Templars and Arbiters. Now do you see Protoss afford all that on 3 bases? There's your all in.
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Best's on valley was him trying to end before his gas ran out, or to cripple queen and open up his nat expansion to spread over bottom left and stabilize. He couldnt end because he had 1 bad recall + uphill attack at 9 base. he traded extremely inefficiently there and started to lose from that point onwards. had he picked another base he would have probably won that game.
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Hey, TMNT's ego showed up and is failing to understand nuance in discussion as usual. Lol T is not going to push with ground army and Battlecruisers because what will BC's offer and what timing will it be able to take advantage of? If it's all inny for P obviously that's because P shit is expensive as hell and more invested in its purposes. Well that's the race, what are you going to do but take advantage of it the way Best did?
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RJBTV with the Best glazing actually turned out correct, wow. It was pure Rocky toss today from Best, some moments were worthy of E rank ladder.
Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine.
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On April 29 2025 23:23 HolySmokes wrote:
Hey, TMNT's ego showed up and is failing to understand nuance in discussion as usual. Lol T is not going to push with ground army and Battlecruisers because what will BC's offer and what timing will it be able to take advantage of? If it's all inny for P obviously that's because P shit is expensive as hell and more invested in its purposes. Well that's the race, what are you going to do but take advantage of it the way Best did?
What ego? I'm just discussing that game and the only part in my posts that refers to you is "steady there" - as in "let's not get ahead of ourselves, his build is good for that game on that map but not meta-changing". What's with these posters who come up with a bold take, and when people disagree with them, start being offensive in the argument?
I'm pretty sure if you use such a bold statement like this:
pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over
you should provide justifications for it. And one game on one weird map certainly isn't enough to prove your statement.
For sure you wouldn't use the games on the map 76 to claim that Zergs were pushing ZvT meta to the use of Devourers would you?
And what nuance are you talking about? The TvP push with ground + BC is just an example to show that your analogy about TvP 3 base push is incorrect. Obviously TvP push with BC is not a strategy, but it's a fitter analogy in the sense that if T on 3 bases try to afford that much then they are broke, just like P on 3 bases trying to afford both Templars and Arbiters.
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On April 29 2025 23:48 Nirli wrote:
RJBTV with the Best glazing actually turned out correct, wow. It was pure Rocky toss today from Best, some moments were worthy of E rank ladder.
Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine.
Even I was doubting my own Best glazing. I should never have doubted myself.
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EPT
