EPT
[ASL19] Ro8 Day 1
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BLinD-RawR
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Simplistik
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HOLYBATS
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RowdierBob
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prosatan
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I like both of them !! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 13:06 RowdierBob wrote: Hopefully Best comes prepared with some builds to throw off Zero. If he plays straight up I think this will be a fairly routine win for Zero. BeSt picked death valley, he's definitely trying to cook something up. assuming he doesn't just die to shshshshshshshshsh | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2872 Posts
LB'D QUEEN. ROOTN FOR BEST. I was gonna cosplay as that old lady from Donnie Darko and slowly check my mail all day tomorrow, but i think i'll watch this instead. Clap. | ||
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inflection
57 Posts
 At least they've gotten to the infancy stage of the DA. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
Queen is just so focused in his matches, it's uncanny. He's looking like one of the strongest players in this tournament. But no one has really given him a challenge and thrown him off his game. Hopefully Best can do that with some interesting strategies and give us a great series. | ||
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Lazyer
United States343 Posts
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
On April 28 2025 14:35 inflection wrote: I'm almost scared to watch if it goes to late game since the pros haven't yet discovered feedback as a counter to plague. As a protoss it stresses me out. At least they've gotten to the infancy stage of the DA.They do occasionally, consider this game between Snow and Soulkey. I imagine the difficulty is that during the mid-game and early late-game the players don't have the time to baby-sit their DA, looking for opportunities. They are busy with macro, army movement, taking bases, harassment etc. | ||
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masoka82
Spain594 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
I think he's the overwhelming favorite for this one. Tough mappool as well for Best. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 14:35 RogerChillingworth wrote: Bro that pic of Best. Dude was gaunt. LB'D QUEEN. ROOTN FOR BEST. I was gonna cosplay as that old lady from Donnie Darko and slowly check my mail all day tomorrow, but i think i'll watch this instead. Clap. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/prech/files/ASL/Ro16f.jpg) This is what BeSt really looked like back in the day. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
4 1 to Queen probably. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2023/tfOSEZ.gif) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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Kespa1988
40 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
On April 28 2025 16:05 Simplistik wrote: I'm not convinced Queen is such a huge favourite. Both Stork and Bisu had chances to beat him this ASL. He can crumble to the right kind of mid-game pressure, or maybe some early game shenanigans. This is a decent point. Queen is not as strong mentally as someone like Soulkey. | ||
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ThePhan2m
Norway2750 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
Both these guys can fail horrendously and win epically, so this should be at least a lot of fun to watch. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8047 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 18:57 Peeano wrote: Best ro4? I will see it before I believe it. Let's go Queen, gimme those free pts. Both these guys can fail horrendously and win epically, so this should be at least a lot of fun to watch. he made Ro4 in ASL 15. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 18:49 ThePhan2m wrote: Best has always had really weak PvZ. He is my favorite of the underdogs for sure ^^ hope he pulls trough! he does, but he generally does better against ZerO/Queen than any other zerg. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
Thanks for the correction. However that was bo5, and then he went on to own himself in his easiest bo7 ever right after ^^ | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Duckvillelol
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 19:24 Duckvillelol wrote: Best you aren't Bisu, your zealots are less powerful they're getting the job done. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
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Peeano
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Simplistik
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gravity
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Zergxhx
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oxKnu
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Simplistik
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RowdierBob
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Gorsameth
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Simplistik
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Zergxhx
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Rain: I built DT so I won Best: What are DT and Storm? | ||
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Duckvillelol
Australia1241 Posts
Indiana Jones I chose... poorly | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 28 2025 19:32 Simplistik wrote: Also, was Queen maybe behind after the opening? His economy was very small... He wasn't behind. Remember Killer vs Bisu in Ro24, he even lost a Hatch but the game was in the balance afterwards. Queen got too tempted with Best's wonky natural that he couldn't resist the bust, but he was trying to bust with a 2 base economy while also attempting to expand into 3 bases as well. Zergs these days tend to not commit with the hydra bust and transition to macro game. | ||
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iFU.pauline
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BLinD-RawR
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Kaal
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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he's got a small force out, go attack the 4th. | ||
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prosatan
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prosatan
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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Kaal
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 19:49 Kaal wrote: best is so behind that if queen loses here itll be insane. Queen needs to be more proactive, being overly cautious atm. | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
On April 28 2025 19:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: Queen needs to be more proactive, being overly cautious atm. yeah hes just trying to snipe storms so he can amove i think. | ||
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Peeano
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Kaal
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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But I think it’s how best should keep playing this way. Try get an early game advantage to stop Queen droning up. | ||
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Peeano
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Simplistik
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BLinD-RawR
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Simplistik
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Kaal
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iFU.pauline
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Peeano
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Kaal
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BLinD-RawR
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 20:04 Kaal wrote: uhhh extremely suspect zealot pushout there expensive pump fake for DTs? | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 28 2025 20:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: DTS once again buying time. Buying time for defeat. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Simplistik
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Peeano
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Kaal
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Kaal
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 20:08 Peeano wrote: 1 zealot in that army and Queen refusing to just walk his hydra next to the goons on highground and destroy them. Fenix zealot | ||
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Kaal
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Kaal
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BLinD-RawR
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Kaal
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Simplistik
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gravity
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oxKnu
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RowdierBob
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iFU.pauline
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Kaal
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gravity
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Peeano
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TMNT
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Kaal
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gravity
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prosatan
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Kaal
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oxKnu
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gravity
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RowdierBob
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Peeano
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BLinD-RawR
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prosatan
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RowdierBob
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SwordM13X24
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Rainalcar
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RowdierBob
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On April 28 2025 20:45 gravity wrote: Like 5 mining bases vs 1, it's not looking good. Some of the recalls after the first one were a bit wasteful I think. Yeah the recall into the 9 expo probably tilted it back towards Queen. He prob should’ve either gone for the main or proxy hatch instead. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 28 2025 20:48 RowdierBob wrote: Yeah the recall into the 9 expo probably tilted it back towards Queen. He prob should’ve either gone for the main or proxy hatch instead. That was the time for the proxy hatch, he was massively ahead. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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TMNT
2729 Posts
Best had to fight on the left side of the map entirely using his recalled army, so the supply difference even when it was 200 vs 100 was deceiving because the armies that were fighting each other was like 100 vs 100. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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BLinD-RawR
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Kaal
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gravity
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oxKnu
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ThePhan2m
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Rainalcar
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BLinD-RawR
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Peeano
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Queen: *I can lose 2 more games like this, but maybe not.* | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:04 oxKnu wrote: Best is gonna regret those two stupid games earlier. Queen is not that scary in ZvP. Yeah thinking back the lost game on Eclipse was such a waste. If you are not sure what zerg is doing, just keep your zealots home. Then he fooled everyone in the Death Valley game (even the Observer couldn't spot the Arbiter tech until the Arbiter had 150 energy lmao) but the execution was lacking. But then you could also say the same thing about Queen. He shouldn't have lost the first game to pure zealots. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
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Last.Midnight
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TMNT
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JohnnyBlaze420
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prosatan
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iFU.pauline
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Simplistik
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Peeano
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Queen a bit uncertain: *I can't lose another game. Damn it.* | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:22 TMNT wrote: Hydra bust or ling flood incoming. It's just the way for a PvZ series. I hate you because it’s true :’) | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:23 Simplistik wrote: Queen having horrible flashbacks of getting his face pushed in by Jangbi. That game was a pure miracle. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:23 Peeano wrote: Best a bit unsure: *I can win 1 more games like this!* Queen a bit uncertain: *I can't lose another game. Damn it.* BeSt has shown better mental all series. part of me wonders if he's like "shit I can't believe I got this far" | ||
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RowdierBob
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iFU.pauline
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gravity
Australia1847 Posts
BeSt has shown better mental all series. Yeah I was wondering why Queen was looking distraught even after winning. Maybe he just looks like that. | ||
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TMNT
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BLinD-RawR
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TMNT
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Queen crawling back, killing the scouting probe and a zealot. | ||
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iFU.pauline
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TMNT
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gravity
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On April 28 2025 21:34 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Best Archon control is atrocious lmao Yeah and Queen controlling his Mutas very well against them. | ||
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TMNT
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gravity
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prion_
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TMNT
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Peeano
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On April 28 2025 21:39 RowdierBob wrote: Omg best will be shitting himself. He’s so close. looool | ||
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gravity
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Duckvillelol
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On April 28 2025 21:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: at this point its too much to ask for a DA Incredible that he didn't have one, given he's one of the few who you normally do see making them. Brilliant series and final game!!! | ||
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Peeano
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TMNT
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DjTPS9x.png) RJBTV is so going to brag about his original tier list now | ||
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Gorsameth
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konadora
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Simplistik
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:47 konadora wrote: in how long is this Best's Ro4 appearance? feels like its been forever ASL15, where he beat Action in an epic Ro8. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 21:47 konadora wrote: in how long is this Best's Ro4 appearance? feels like its been forever 2 years, ASL15 | ||
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konadora
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prosatan
Romania8047 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:47 Simplistik wrote: Zero corsair Protoss build is really like the old old days. New meta!! RIP LB! Well done Best!! | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
damn its been a while! | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:46 TMNT wrote: RJBTV is so going to brag about his original tier list now | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:47 Simplistik wrote: ASL15, where he beat Action in an epic Ro8. wow its really been 2 years | ||
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Zergxhx
China146 Posts
도재욱 fighting! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
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I always believed. | ||
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konadora
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DO-MEN!! | ||
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konadora
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Jenia6109
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BLinD-RawR
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On April 28 2025 21:51 konadora wrote: assuming Light beats JD tomorrow (sorry JD i love you but i don't think you're beating Light's TvZ), Best has a really good chance of making to finals DO-MEN!! oh I wouldn't count Jaedong out just yet. | ||
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Simplistik
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:50 BLinD-RawR wrote: other staffers thought I was crazy for voting Best. I always believed. To believe or not to believe, I always thought you are crazy Good luck on the rest of your LB. You are still in the race for the #1 spot! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:53 Simplistik wrote: I'm just so pleased that this was a fun series to watch. Last season we had blow-outs in all the knock-out matches. can't remember the last time we ever went to game 7 really | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
not only he got the spawn position that he wanted, but Queen went 9 pool gas on a cross spawn, so everything was going in his favor so he decided to go with speedlot +1 rush, but he started to think too cocky again (something he attributed his loss in game 2 and 3 to), so he decided to slow things down in the mid game | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:53 BLinD-RawR wrote: oh I wouldn't count Jaedong out just yet. i REALLY REALLY hope JD wins, my heart says JD but my mind says Light  | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
Look I’ve been stanning for Rain but I think it’s a 50/50 vs Snow. | ||
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konadora
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iFU.pauline
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TMNT
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Bisu vs Killer. Stork vs Queen. Rain vs Action. And this series alone must be at leats 3-4 throws in the 7 games, sometimes twice in the same game. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:55 RowdierBob wrote: Xun is growing on me as a commentator but he seems to have no idea about the level of the pros. Like he thinks Best is a big adv vs JD/Light and now he’s saying Rain is a big favourite vs Snow. Look I’ve been stanning for Rain but I think it’s a 50/50 cs Snow. Rain is an incredible player and I would honestly think he has a slight advantage vs Snow too Rain plays league most of the time and still casually advances to Ro8 without trying too hard lol | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:55 TMNT wrote: But it does feel like there's a lot of throwing back and forth in PvZ this season. Bisu vs Killer. Stork vs Queen. Rain vs Action. And this series alone must be at leats 3-4 throws in the 7 games, sometimes twice in the same game. The match has become a tad volatile with the hydra/muta snipe play style. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:54 BLinD-RawR wrote: can't remember the last time we ever went to game 7 really same, it felt like a ton of 4-0s or 4-1s | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
he has been improving a lot lately in online leagues, and some games were pure classic vintage prime era JD moments | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:54 BLinD-RawR wrote: can't remember the last time we ever went to game 7 really There were some TvZ's a few seasons ago. SK vs Rush, JyJ vs herO, Royal vs SK. Can't remember any PvZ's. We've only had Bo7 in Ro8 for a couple of seasons or so, right? Oh yeah, I also bet Best... | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:55 TMNT wrote: But it does feel like there's a lot of throwing back and forth in PvZ this season. Bisu vs Killer. Stork vs Queen. Rain vs Action. And this series alone must be at leats 3-4 throws in the 7 games, sometimes twice in the same game. This is the real experience of playing BW for anyone but FlaSh or peak Bisu/JD/Jangbi. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:56 konadora wrote: Rain is an incredible player and I would honestly think he has a slight advantage vs Snow too Rain plays league most of the time and still casually advances to Ro8 without trying too hard lol Snow played a really clinical PvP vs Bisu one or two seasons ago. If he's calm, he'll win. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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oxKnu
1180 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
On April 28 2025 21:59 Simplistik wrote: Snow played a really clinical PvP vs Bisu one or two seasons ago. If he's calm, he'll win. Snow in a calm and focused state is honestly on par with Soulkey. But so is Light. Soulkey, Light and SnOw form the holy trinity of the three races. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
- cannon rush close spawn - 12 nexus cross spawn - 9 pool cross spawn vs forge opening One thing slightly different and we'd be looking at very different outcome now. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
On April 28 2025 22:06 TMNT wrote: But I gotta say Best had incredible build order luck in the last 3 games to reverse the series: - cannon rush close spawn - 12 nexus cross spawn - 9 pool cross spawn vs forge opening One thing slightly different and we'd be looking at very different outcome now. with (near) equally skilled players seemingly small variations from game to game can lead to wildly different outcomes. Is Best the better player than Queen? Maybe, maybe not. But he did win by playing better for at least more games than Queen did. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4990 Posts
On April 28 2025 22:06 TMNT wrote: One thing slightly different and we'd be looking at very different outcome now. This is the real experience of playing BW. And this is why resilience is something all true champions show. A game of BW is never lost or over till it is. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
On April 28 2025 22:06 TMNT wrote: I don't think these games were so clean that you can point to the initial build order as being the deciding factor.But I gotta say Best had incredible build order luck in the last 3 games to reverse the series: - cannon rush close spawn - 12 nexus cross spawn - 9 pool cross spawn vs forge opening One thing slightly different and we'd be looking at very different outcome now. Your right that small differences could have swung games but there were multiple swing points in each, imo. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
On April 28 2025 22:06 TMNT wrote: But I gotta say Best had incredible build order luck in the last 3 games to reverse the series: - cannon rush close spawn - 12 nexus cross spawn - 9 pool cross spawn vs forge opening One thing slightly different and we'd be looking at very different outcome now. A really key adjustment he made in games 6 and 7 was going citadel first. His speed zeals hit a lot quicker than the standard stargate->citadel build and it worked very well for him. Zero didn’t have the space he wanted to drone whore. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
73 Posts
maybe soulkey will be unlucky vs rush and we may have pvp finals | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2872 Posts
Arbiters It was almost exactly like that scene from jurassic park, where the kid tells some dino jokes and then they all fall quietly asleep in the tree to soft piano music, then wake up without a single mosquito bite. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1033 Posts
But ZerO's gameplay is so behind hero and Sk even though he's ahead of pretty much anyone else. In the first game perhaps, i get it, i understand that he went 3h hydras after/vs against dual gates but i feel like someone like Sk would have made the perfect amount of dras to be able to take another expansion and kill half of the wall. ZerO just pumped sh then realise that, well, he was fucked. It was almost like that jurassic park scene in which the guy fell off a cliff, then was against a zillion of baby dinos. Except the fact that he decided to just walk on them and run back to the camp instead of collapsing behind the river. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1033 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
Very impressed by Best, always knew he had a chance, but unfortunately requires misplay by Zerg and luck, which he got! On April 29 2025 01:52 RogerChillingworth wrote: A little cringe to see all those HT picked off for free. Seen this exact thing happen every PvZ this decade, Toss has basically no defense against it. Hardly cringe | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
On April 29 2025 02:41 mOnion wrote: Honestly more embarrassing for Queen than the BCM loss. No shot a Zerg should lose a Bo7 to a Toss today. And it still took mostly luck for it to happen. Very impressed by Best, always knew he had a chance, but unfortunately requires misplay by Zerg and luck, which he got! Seen this exact thing happen every PvZ this decade, Toss has basically no defense against it. Hardly cringe least accurate take of the day ngl. Zergs lose Bo5-9 to protoss all the time. It is not out of the ordinary. Its not weird lol. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On April 29 2025 02:41 mOnion wrote: Honestly more embarrassing for Queen than the BCM loss. No shot a Zerg should lose a Bo7 to a Toss today. And it still took mostly luck for it to happen. Very impressed by Best, always knew he had a chance, but unfortunately requires misplay by Zerg and luck, which he got! Seen this exact thing happen every PvZ this decade, Toss has basically no defense against it. Hardly cringe Dark Archon works pretty damn well. Corsair are also a possibility, and you can even go for speed shuttles. I don’t know what it is with absolutely trying to get HT go full pedestrian with nothing but goons to zone out those mutas. I think DA are going to be the next big thing in PvZ. They need baby sitting, but maelstrom and feedback are insanely good spells. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1566 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4773 Posts
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Lazyer
United States343 Posts
On April 28 2025 15:21 Lazyer wrote: Cant see Best making it out ; -; ASL title forever out of his reach with all these strong Zergs around. I stand so sorely correct, he fkin KILLED IT TODAY Legendary for bringing out Arbiters in PvZ, absolute mad lad. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 29 2025 06:23 iFU.pauline wrote: Zero really underperformed, let's be honest, his build orders were shit. On top of that the win on Eclipse is almost pure luck, thinking Best was going 2 gates, putting super late third, he comitted to zerglings and it just happened to work since Best never expected this. Also, his 9pool speed ling into lair was awful, this shit never works. Of course Best would instantly bypass corsaire and makes mass gates. The only time I saw an ex-pro spamming this build was Hero on fish server just to level up to D/C rank quickly and at least he had the decency to transit to 4 hatch hydra instead. yeah its a common understanding amongst top zerg now that 9 pool speed is a very poor (literally) opening BO and has a low winrate on any map that isn't 2p as long as the protoss isnt going nexus first, its considered a BO loss already | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
fucking shit This will go down as one of the greatest PvZs of all time. Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over. The Arbiter game was one of the greatest failed plays ever. He would have absolutely won that game if he had kept his observer alive on the 3rd recall or recalled the 4th instead. And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland563 Posts
That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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HOLYBATS
Turkey731 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 29 2025 14:08 HolySmokes wrote: Holy fucking shit This will go down as one of the greatest PvZs of all time. Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over. The Arbiter game was one of the greatest failed plays ever. He would have absolutely won that game if he had kept his observer alive on the 3rd recall or recalled the 4th instead. And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past. Steady there. The Arbiter build is just a surprise mf one off build designed for that map. No way it can become the PvZ meta. Like Bonyth said Best essentially did an all in on 3 bases and in fact it helped that Queen was expanding like a mad man. Even in the next game on that map, Zerg will watch out for the Arbiter. Similarly, the other builds are situational, combined with spawning luck and build choice of Queen, that led to Best hitting jackpot. It's no reliable way to play PvZ. It indeed looks like Best was taking advices from Mini yesterday. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On April 29 2025 17:32 TMNT wrote: Steady there. The Arbiter build is just a surprise mf one off build designed for that map. No way it can become the PvZ meta. Like Bonyth said Best essentially did an all in on 3 bases and in fact it helped that Queen was expanding like a mad man. Even in the next game on that map, Zerg will watch out for the Arbiter. Similarly, the other builds are situational, combined with spawning luck and build choice of Queen, that led to Best hitting jackpot. It's no reliable way to play PvZ. It indeed looks like Best was taking advices from Mini yesterday. Steady yourself. No one said the Arbiter strat was going to be a standard way to play PvZ. Obviously it was prepped for that one map, in the context of a series. But it shows the viability of the unit in the right context. Best just showed a ton of creativity and ingenuity with his race against his opponent and played a great series, which is the real takeaway here. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On April 29 2025 14:52 Bonyth wrote: Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades). That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light. Weird take. I think you are too stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on in each game with the little changes that Best was pulling that was throwing Queen off his standard openers. He didn't do what you said because he didn't have to or it wasn't suited to the strat he was trying to execute. No one calls a 3 base TvP push an all in, its just what T builds up towards, I saw the same idea here. But I guess one man's failed timing attacks is another man's all in. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 29 2025 22:50 HolySmokes wrote: Weird take. I think you are too stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on in each game with the little changes that Best was pulling that was throwing Queen off his standard openers. He didn't do what you said because he didn't have to or it wasn't suited to the strat he was trying to execute. No one calls a 3 base TvP push an all in, its just what T builds up towards, I saw the same idea here. But I guess one man's failed timing attacks is another man's all in. Obviously because it's different to a 3 base TvP push. A Terran can both push on 3 bases while expanding on normal maps. Best limited his choice to expand further than 3 bases because (a) of the map and (b) of his tech choice. A more correct analogy is Terran pushing Protoss with both ground army and Battle Cruisers. But you don't even have to compare to Terran because what Best did in that game was essentially playing PvT with both Templars and Arbiters. Now do you see Protoss afford all that on 3 bases? There's your all in. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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Nirli
Bulgaria370 Posts
Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 29 2025 23:23 HolySmokes wrote: Hey, TMNT's ego showed up and is failing to understand nuance in discussion as usual. Lol T is not going to push with ground army and Battlecruisers because what will BC's offer and what timing will it be able to take advantage of? If it's all inny for P obviously that's because P shit is expensive as hell and more invested in its purposes. Well that's the race, what are you going to do but take advantage of it the way Best did? What ego? I'm just discussing that game and the only part in my posts that refers to you is "steady there" - as in "let's not get ahead of ourselves, his build is good for that game on that map but not meta-changing". What's with these posters who come up with a bold take, and when people disagree with them, start being offensive in the argument? I'm pretty sure if you use such a bold statement like this: pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over you should provide justifications for it. And one game on one weird map certainly isn't enough to prove your statement. For sure you wouldn't use the games on the map 76 to claim that Zergs were pushing ZvT meta to the use of Devourers would you? And what nuance are you talking about? The TvP push with ground + BC is just an example to show that your analogy about TvP 3 base push is incorrect. Obviously TvP push with BC is not a strategy, but it's a fitter analogy in the sense that if T on 3 bases try to afford that much then they are broke, just like P on 3 bases trying to afford both Templars and Arbiters. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands887 Posts
On April 29 2025 23:48 Nirli wrote: RJBTV with the Best glazing actually turned out correct, wow. It was pure Rocky toss today from Best, some moments were worthy of E rank ladder. Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine. Even I was doubting my own Best glazing. I should never have doubted myself. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
On April 29 2025 23:56 TMNT wrote: What ego? I'm just discussing that game and the only part in my posts that refers to you is "steady there" - as in "let's not get ahead of ourselves, his build is good for that game on that map but not meta-changing". What's with these posters who come up with a bold take, and when people disagree with them, start being offensive in the argument? I'm pretty sure if you use such a bold statement like this: you should provide justifications for it. And one game on one weird map certainly isn't enough to prove your statement. For sure you wouldn't use the games on the map 76 to claim that Zergs were pushing ZvT meta to the use of Devourers would you? And what nuance are you talking about? The TvP push with ground + BC is just an example to show that your analogy about TvP 3 base push is incorrect. Obviously TvP push with BC is not a strategy, but it's a fitter analogy in the sense that if T on 3 bases try to afford that much then they are broke, just like P on 3 bases trying to afford both Templars and Arbiters. Your ego as in your habit of debating with people over things you see that are not there. I'm not the first to call you out on it. You're reading way too much into what I wrote and putting your words in my mouth. Never said the Arbiter play was specifically pushing the meta or anything, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was referring to in general, Best's use of off-beat builds to gain advantages and exploit timings and mindfuck Queen throughout the series. People are saying Queen played bad and wondered why he kept sticking with 9 pool openers. Well I think he was just not ready for the crazy builds Best presented and was afraid to switch it up and get killed by Best switching back to standard gateway FE, which before this point was absolutely killing Zergs in PvZ. The TvP analogy was just to say how it is a viable strat for T in TvP to deliberately sit on 3 bases to attempt a midgame timing attack, which if it gets crushed can seem "all in" in the sense that T will have lost the game since it put everything it had into doing that and will have a hard time getting back into the game if it even can. The basic idea there is not different to the mindset that Best was going in with each game, his builds were clearly tailored to hit certain timings. When it works it looks spectacular, when it doesn't it looks like an all in. It is just P's flaw, or feature depending on how you look at it, that it really needs to make such attacks work and cannot have the flexibility to recover like T can. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On April 29 2025 14:52 Bonyth wrote: Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades). That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light. I didn't see inferiority, just pragmatism. No matter which race you play, all-inning greedy style Zergs one way or the other has always been a favorable gamble. You can also regard it as if the Zergs feeling of inferiority (or overconfidence) is what makes them consistently greed. Best mixed it up, the 2 games that he made more probes he easily lost, because Queen kept on greeding. Why on earth if you had the muta micro + multitask of Queen, wouldn't you delay your 4th base and 6th Hatch a bit just to be safe? Don't you want an even game, you'd rather gamble stomping/getting stomped? Its like stating "Kill me with zealots early, else face infinite hydras" Because unlike Soulkey who knows that you have to mix it up, he was stubbornly trying to get huge too fast every single game in an identical way. If Z is a maniac like Zelot, then sure, better play safe. Btw Zerg's lategame is way superior, limited only by the players ability to handle the infinite units and macro. However its very taxing for the body, saw Queen suffering after that heroic win vs arbiters? Rubbing his neck in despair, as if he lost. After that, his decision making was awful. At the last game he suicided all his 0-0 hydras vs 1-2 toss army. You also have to play at your strengths and their weaknesses, it seems that Best likes to trade armies in general, creating timing windows, this allows him to utilise high gateway count in relation to his lowish probe count. In this regard trading 1-1 vs 0-0 hydras is preferable to 1-2 vs 1-0 hydras. Also, why on earth would you let a Z of Queens ability mine 4 bases optimally, while suffering his muta harass trying to get your 3rd, giving him time to do infinite +2 hydras? He will kite your death ball backwards, backstab you, split your army etc. The deathball superior P army style you like to play sure has to be played safe and reactive, more corsairs, DA, dual forge, reavers later, charge templars, do more probes, roam a bit, secure 3rd, secure 4th, and better attack him before hive stuff. Best seemed determined, hyped up, full adrenaline blazing, very sharp with micro and multitask, proper bully mindset. His plan was clearly to dictate the game state instead of absorbing and reacting. He wasn't thinking clearly at all times, made some throws like recall at 9oclock without enough obs, and that suicide army to distract 2 dt drop (should have been reverse: distract with 2 dt, to prevail with army), but all in all this stress that he put on Queen paid off. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
On April 30 2025 01:51 HolySmokes wrote: Your ego as in your habit of debating with people over things you see that are not there. I'm not the first to call you out on it. You're reading way too much into what I wrote and putting your words in my mouth. Never said the Arbiter play was specifically pushing the meta or anything, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was referring to in general, Best's use of off-beat builds to gain advantages and exploit timings and mindfuck Queen throughout the series. People are saying Queen played bad and wondered why he kept sticking with 9 pool openers. Well I think he was just not ready for the crazy builds Best presented and was afraid to switch it up and get killed by Best switching back to standard gateway FE, which before this point was absolutely killing Zergs in PvZ. Then the problem, I'm afraid, is the way you wrote your post and your perception of the matchup, not mine. When you said "Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over" then followed up by describing the Arbiter game, you obviously left an impression that the Arbiter play is a demonstration of the previous statement. That sounds logical because Arbiter is almost never used in PvZ. Especially that you finished the post with "And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past" while this build is neither new nor ground breaking, while being also a gamble build. Mini pulled that kind of build on a regular basis. That's why Bonyth said he was trying to all in one way or another and skipping safety measures. To put it simply, if his 12 Nexus opening matched with Queen's 9 Pool opening, we're not here discussing pushing PvZ meta right now. We're only talking about "pushing the meta" with stuff like Bisu's revolution. Nexus first or Sairless against Zerg is not pushing the meta, they're just situational, high risk high reward builds that have been existing since forever. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On April 30 2025 03:27 HolySmokes wrote: Lol TMNT, learn how to read carefully and how to have a discussion with people, instead of finding one thing you feel someone said wrong and sticking your face in to try to look like a big shot. That is all. Kinda seems like that's what you're doing, but without being able to identify something TMNT said that's wrong. But shoutout to BeSt for, for once, being the more clutch player in a series. He has a pretty decent shot at the Finals here, and I really hope that it's somehow him vs. Snow for the title of the ultimate choker. | ||
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TMNT
2729 Posts
You're the one who needs to learn how to write and have a discussion. All I see is the moment people disagree with you, you start calling them out and being offensive. It's not only me is it, as you also immediately criticized Bonyth as "stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on". There are probably 10 instances in this thread alone where people disagreed with each other's opinion and I don't see them calling each other "sticking your face in to try to look like a big shot". You have a problem mate. | ||
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HolySmokes
56 Posts
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TMNT
2729 Posts
Just line up our replies one by one and reflect and see when did it escalate and who initiated? Also in terms of argument I absolutely owned you, evidenced by the fact that you've been dodging the points and resorted to personal attack. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
GGs! | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania119 Posts
On April 29 2025 23:48 Nirli wrote: Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine. Queen is probably my second favorite zerg after JD, but for whatever reason i love seeing Queen getting tilted! It's a part of that ultimate SCBW experience - know your players, thrive on their emotions, watch them crack, suffer, tilt and so on! However, NOWHERE is Queen comparable to Mini (and no one really is). Queen's tilts are decent, like that of any normal human. Mini's tilts are some kind of GARGOYLESQUE masochistic dehumanization art form, combined with his long nails gives me the creeps - it's just not a pleasant thing to watch. Game openings Queen lost to: 2-gate, cannon rush, crosspawn Nexus first vs. overpool, forge expand vs. 9-pool gas. I think Queen played better still. Best won on gamble by doing wacky builds, to which Queen was unprepared and that is Queens' fault entirely. In a best of 7 tournament all builds count! A 9-pool gas opening is A LEGIT good build for a best of 7 series! SK would throw a rush like that in a long series for sure. Don't talk BS about 9-pool gas being lame! In another situation (horizontal spawn with Best going gateway expand) Queen would murder Best. I think Bonyth was right saying that Best felt like an underdog. Honestly, the zerg have never looked so strong as they did over the last year or two. Non of the top protoss players could touch the top 3 zergs in a long series (Soulkey, Hero, Queen). On April 30 2025 06:30 M3t4PhYzX wrote: One of the most entertaining bo7 series in ASL history, for sure. This whole ASL has been legendary so far. Probably the best since Larva became a champ. Let's just hope that the rest of the games will go to the maximum distance! Also, Soulkey needs to loose to Rush for this ASL to be great once more. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11048 Posts
Game 4. Man that was peak. Both looked relatively sloppy but it was a pleasure to watch. Usually I am very very down on Best but he deserves props. Edit damnit why is snow being wasted in another pvp.qq | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10656 Posts
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rotta
5588 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
Best day of my life Best | ||
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Galacsia
Chile161 Posts
Same can be said for game 7, the bo was good and it gave Best an advantage but then Best blundered many times and it was Queen's botched attack at Best's 3rd that put him way behind. | ||
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prototype.
Canada4202 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada119 Posts
On April 28 2025 18:49 ThePhan2m wrote: Best has always had really weak PvZ. He is my favorite of the underdogs for sure ^^ hope he pulls trough! I'm not just saying this because he won today, but Best had weak PvZ in like 2009 when he fought against July, similar to how Jaedong had godly ZvZ 15 years ago But Best legitimately is probably tied with Mini for having the best PvZ in the modern era. I think he has among the highest winrate against Zerg in ASL Things change, like Jaedong probably has the worst ZvZ out of all the top Zergs now | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
The main thing that impressed me in these series was a lack of choking by Best. That being said, pressure may mount up now that there's more expectations. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
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goody153
44125 Posts
Seriously tho. Best basically flipped the game. It looked like an almost reverse sweep (cause it was 3-1 not 3-0) but still crazy Game 3 was easily the best game. That was such a bizzare game with arbiters in zvp and zerg expanding all over the map including next door like a lore accurate zerg Probably the best series so far for this tourney. Gotta love the audible crowd cheering too. They were really happy with best and all his storms at the end | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania119 Posts
Over the course of 7 games, Queen only once went 12-hatchery, all the other openings were four over-pools, one 9-pool, and one 9-pool gas. That's kind'a crazy. On April 30 2025 17:20 rotta wrote: Tastosis talking about Billy Mitchell already made my day! This is irrelevant talk for many people, who started watching SCBW in later years. Their off topic blabering came at the expense of concentrating on the openings and early actions of they players. I was very annoyed by that. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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townhouse
United States26 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada119 Posts
On May 01 2025 22:25 weiliem wrote: I will honestly enjoy a Best vs Snow finals I would not, Best is my favourite player and is super entertaining but his PvP is the worst out of the top Protosses | ||
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TornadoSteve
1033 Posts
On May 02 2025 06:26 ruhtraeel wrote: I would not, Best is my favourite player and is super entertaining but his PvP is the worst out of the top Protosses So true, it feels like he was priorizing teh probe before any unit, at any point of the game, until very recently lol Guy was trying to play a macro game in all of his pvsp, but never worked. Now he's a lot better, but his pvsp is clearly the worst of the top P tier, by far. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
This is irrelevant talk for many people, who started watching SCBW in later years. Their off topic blabering came at the expense of concentrating on the openings and early actions of they players. I was very annoyed by that. You can always try the other English stream/vod, which is much more play-by-play commentary. | ||
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Simplistik
2007 Posts
On May 02 2025 06:26 ruhtraeel wrote: I would not, Best is my favourite player and is super entertaining but his PvP is the worst out of the top Protosses I find that really wonky, because he used to be super good at it, back during the Pro era. He had a crazy 12 game win streak or something. I guess times change... | ||
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felleN
Australia60 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada119 Posts
On May 02 2025 13:22 Simplistik wrote: I find that really wonky, because he used to be super good at it, back during the Pro era. He had a crazy 12 game win streak or something. I guess times change... He was also terrible against Zerg in the proleague era, but now he's probably the best or second best PvZ player in the world (think he's close to Mini with the highest PvZ winrate) | ||
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