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On April 29 2025 23:56 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2025 23:23 HolySmokes wrote:
Hey, TMNT's ego showed up and is failing to understand nuance in discussion as usual. Lol T is not going to push with ground army and Battlecruisers because what will BC's offer and what timing will it be able to take advantage of? If it's all inny for P obviously that's because P shit is expensive as hell and more invested in its purposes. Well that's the race, what are you going to do but take advantage of it the way Best did? What ego? I'm just discussing that game and the only part in my posts that refers to you is "steady there" - as in "let's not get ahead of ourselves, his build is good for that game on that map but not meta-changing". What's with these posters who come up with a bold take, and when people disagree with them, start being offensive in the argument? I'm pretty sure if you use such a bold statement like this: Show nested quote +pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over you should provide justifications for it. And one game on one weird map certainly isn't enough to prove your statement. For sure you wouldn't use the games on the map 76 to claim that Zergs were pushing ZvT meta to the use of Devourers would you? And what nuance are you talking about? The TvP push with ground + BC is just an example to show that your analogy about TvP 3 base push is incorrect. Obviously TvP push with BC is not a strategy, but it's a fitter analogy in the sense that if T on 3 bases try to afford that much then they are broke, just like P on 3 bases trying to afford both Templars and Arbiters.
Your ego as in your habit of debating with people over things you see that are not there. I'm not the first to call you out on it. You're reading way too much into what I wrote and putting your words in my mouth.
Never said the Arbiter play was specifically pushing the meta or anything, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was referring to in general, Best's use of off-beat builds to gain advantages and exploit timings and mindfuck Queen throughout the series.
People are saying Queen played bad and wondered why he kept sticking with 9 pool openers. Well I think he was just not ready for the crazy builds Best presented and was afraid to switch it up and get killed by Best switching back to standard gateway FE, which before this point was absolutely killing Zergs in PvZ.
The TvP analogy was just to say how it is a viable strat for T in TvP to deliberately sit on 3 bases to attempt a midgame timing attack, which if it gets crushed can seem "all in" in the sense that T will have lost the game since it put everything it had into doing that and will have a hard time getting back into the game if it even can. The basic idea there is not different to the mindset that Best was going in with each game, his builds were clearly tailored to hit certain timings. When it works it looks spectacular, when it doesn't it looks like an all in. It is just P's flaw, or feature depending on how you look at it, that it really needs to make such attacks work and cannot have the flexibility to recover like T can.
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On April 29 2025 14:52 Bonyth wrote:
Don't know what u guys saw in these games, but I saw a desperate protoss try to all-in zerg player in 1 way or another. Best clearly played with inferior player mindset, in most games skipping safety measures (no cannons in bases vs muta presence, no dark archon, no corsair against muta) as well as skipping late game (no additional upgrades on forge past 101 upgrades).
That being said, entertaining series with entertaining result. Looking forward to Best vs Light.
I didn't see inferiority, just pragmatism.
No matter which race you play, all-inning greedy style Zergs one way or the other has always been a favorable gamble.
You can also regard it as if the Zergs feeling of inferiority (or overconfidence) is what makes them consistently greed. Best mixed it up, the 2 games that he made more probes he easily lost, because Queen kept on greeding. Why on earth if you had the muta micro + multitask of Queen, wouldn't you delay your 4th base and 6th Hatch a bit just to be safe? Don't you want an even game, you'd rather gamble stomping/getting stomped? Its like stating "Kill me with zealots early, else face infinite hydras" Because unlike Soulkey who knows that you have to mix it up, he was stubbornly trying to get huge too fast every single game in an identical way. If Z is a maniac like Zelot, then sure, better play safe. Btw Zerg's lategame is way superior, limited only by the players ability to handle the infinite units and macro. However its very taxing for the body, saw Queen suffering after that heroic win vs arbiters? Rubbing his neck in despair, as if he lost. After that, his decision making was awful. At the last game he suicided all his 0-0 hydras vs 1-2 toss army.
You also have to play at your strengths and their weaknesses, it seems that Best likes to trade armies in general, creating timing windows, this allows him to utilise high gateway count in relation to his lowish probe count. In this regard trading 1-1 vs 0-0 hydras is preferable to 1-2 vs 1-0 hydras. Also, why on earth would you let a Z of Queens ability mine 4 bases optimally, while suffering his muta harass trying to get your 3rd, giving him time to do infinite +2 hydras? He will kite your death ball backwards, backstab you, split your army etc. The deathball superior P army style you like to play sure has to be played safe and reactive, more corsairs, DA, dual forge, reavers later, charge templars, do more probes, roam a bit, secure 3rd, secure 4th, and better attack him before hive stuff.
Best seemed determined, hyped up, full adrenaline blazing, very sharp with micro and multitask, proper bully mindset. His plan was clearly to dictate the game state instead of absorbing and reacting. He wasn't thinking clearly at all times, made some throws like recall at 9oclock without enough obs, and that suicide army to distract 2 dt drop (should have been reverse: distract with 2 dt, to prevail with army), but all in all this stress that he put on Queen paid off.
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On April 30 2025 01:51 HolySmokes wrote:
Your ego as in your habit of debating with people over things you see that are not there. I'm not the first to call you out on it. You're reading way too much into what I wrote and putting your words in my mouth.
Never said the Arbiter play was specifically pushing the meta or anything, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was referring to in general, Best's use of off-beat builds to gain advantages and exploit timings and mindfuck Queen throughout the series.
People are saying Queen played bad and wondered why he kept sticking with 9 pool openers. Well I think he was just not ready for the crazy builds Best presented and was afraid to switch it up and get killed by Best switching back to standard gateway FE, which before this point was absolutely killing Zergs in PvZ.
Then the problem, I'm afraid, is the way you wrote your post and your perception of the matchup, not mine.
When you said "Best just pushed the Protoss meta to a whole new level and turned some long held beliefs about the standard over" then followed up by describing the Arbiter game, you obviously left an impression that the Arbiter play is a demonstration of the previous statement. That sounds logical because Arbiter is almost never used in PvZ.
Especially that you finished the post with "And his 12 nexus citadel first build is so slick it makes corsair first feel like a thing of the past" while this build is neither new nor ground breaking, while being also a gamble build. Mini pulled that kind of build on a regular basis. That's why Bonyth said he was trying to all in one way or another and skipping safety measures. To put it simply, if his 12 Nexus opening matched with Queen's 9 Pool opening, we're not here discussing pushing PvZ meta right now.
We're only talking about "pushing the meta" with stuff like Bisu's revolution. Nexus first or Sairless against Zerg is not pushing the meta, they're just situational, high risk high reward builds that have been existing since forever.
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Lol TMNT, learn how to read carefully and how to have a discussion with people, instead of finding one thing you feel someone said wrong and sticking your face in to try to look like a big shot. That is all.
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On April 30 2025 03:27 HolySmokes wrote:
Lol TMNT, learn how to read carefully and how to have a discussion with people, instead of finding one thing you feel someone said wrong and sticking your face in to try to look like a big shot. That is all.
Kinda seems like that's what you're doing, but without being able to identify something TMNT said that's wrong.
But shoutout to BeSt for, for once, being the more clutch player in a series. He has a pretty decent shot at the Finals here, and I really hope that it's somehow him vs. Snow for the title of the ultimate choker.
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I mean, all I did was disagree with your statement which is objectively too hyperbolic (if you think it's not hyperbolic, please respond to post #303).. You're now just backtracking from that statement.
You're the one who needs to learn how to write and have a discussion. All I see is the moment people disagree with you, you start calling them out and being offensive. It's not only me is it, as you also immediately criticized Bonyth as "stuck on traditional conventions of playing and failed to see what was going on".
There are probably 10 instances in this thread alone where people disagreed with each other's opinion and I don't see them calling each other "sticking your face in to try to look like a big shot". You have a problem mate.
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Lmao the forum's biggest arguer saying I have a problem, when your reputation precedes itself and you and the same 10 accounts are always replying to each other. Not my fault you can't interpret words with nuance and I already explained what I meant. So why are you still making a big deal out of nothing?
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You're obviously the one who got personal and made this a big deal.
Just line up our replies one by one and reflect and see when did it escalate and who initiated?
Also in terms of argument I absolutely owned you, evidenced by the fact that you've been dodging the points and resorted to personal attack.
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One of the most entertaining bo7 series in ASL history, for sure. A fantastically tasty comeback win.
GGs!
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On April 29 2025 23:48 Nirli wrote:
Queen is the Mini of Zerg. A real life tilt machine.
Queen is probably my second favorite zerg after JD, but for whatever reason i love seeing Queen getting tilted! It's a part of that ultimate SCBW experience - know your players, thrive on their emotions, watch them crack, suffer, tilt and so on!
However, NOWHERE is Queen comparable to Mini (and no one really is). Queen's tilts are decent, like that of any normal human. Mini's tilts are some kind of GARGOYLESQUE masochistic dehumanization art form, combined with his long nails gives me the creeps - it's just not a pleasant thing to watch.
Game openings Queen lost to: 2-gate, cannon rush, crosspawn Nexus first vs. overpool, forge expand vs. 9-pool gas.
I think Queen played better still. Best won on gamble by doing wacky builds, to which Queen was unprepared and that is Queens' fault entirely. In a best of 7 tournament all builds count! A 9-pool gas opening is A LEGIT good build for a best of 7 series! SK would throw a rush like that in a long series for sure. Don't talk BS about 9-pool gas being lame! In another situation (horizontal spawn with Best going gateway expand) Queen would murder Best.
I think Bonyth was right saying that Best felt like an underdog. Honestly, the zerg have never looked so strong as they did over the last year or two. Non of the top protoss players could touch the top 3 zergs in a long series (Soulkey, Hero, Queen).
On April 30 2025 06:30 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
One of the most entertaining bo7 series in ASL history, for sure.
This whole ASL has been legendary so far. Probably the best since Larva became a champ. Let's just hope that the rest of the games will go to the maximum distance! Also, Soulkey needs to loose to Rush for this ASL to be great once more.
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What a series. Surprised queen cracked. Queen used to be phenomenal.
Game 4. Man that was peak.
Both looked relatively sloppy but it was a pleasure to watch. Usually I am very very down on Best but he deserves props.
Edit damnit why is snow being wasted in another pvp.qq
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ugh i accidently spoiled myself, waiting for the tastosis cast. at least i know its gonna be the full 7. still hyped!
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Tastosis talking about Billy Mitchell already made my day!
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Just watched the game
Best day of my life
Best
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I disagree with some of y'all saying that Best only won based on build order luck. He did have bo luck but it wasn't what won him all those games. On the Radeon game, the cannon rush gave him quite a lead at the beginning but Queen managed to stabilize afterwards, and it was the 2 zealots killing all the drones plus the base plus all the zealots + storm Best was throwing Queen's way that did it. Obviously the bo luck helped achieve that state but it wasn't determined by it.
Same can be said for game 7, the bo was good and it gave Best an advantage but then Best blundered many times and it was Queen's botched attack at Best's 3rd that put him way behind.
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Great series. Both players played so well.
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On April 28 2025 18:49 ThePhan2m wrote:
Best has always had really weak PvZ. He is my favorite of the underdogs for sure ^^ hope he pulls trough!
I'm not just saying this because he won today, but Best had weak PvZ in like 2009 when he fought against July, similar to how Jaedong had godly ZvZ 15 years ago
But Best legitimately is probably tied with Mini for having the best PvZ in the modern era. I think he has among the highest winrate against Zerg in ASL
Things change, like Jaedong probably has the worst ZvZ out of all the top Zergs now
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Have to agree that it wasn't a particularly strong showing. Not all BO luck, but it was more of a "throw off a macro zerg by doing random stuff" than anything solid. Zero's probably the zerg that is the most vulnerable to that approach, too.
The main thing that impressed me in these series was a lack of choking by Best.
That being said, pressure may mount up now that there's more expectations.
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Very polarizing series in many ways. Best played a radical style vs Queen's standard style, which impressed some and unimpressed others. I think more than anything it shows how people view these players (not that highly). Bisu and Savior wasn't technically anything remarkable itself (the Bisu build wasn't technically "new" at the time), but it was a finals with a relatively new underdog against a GOAT, and everyone ate it up. Nowadays in retrospect we can see it as more Savior's arrogance and failure to prepare as well as Bisu did, probably thinking he could just come in and ezPZ a nobody Toss, fucking around and finding out. Still it was a great moment, and I think Best deserves a lot of credit for what he did this series as well.
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EPT
