[ASL16] Ro24 Group C

On August 16 2023 19:54 vtv.Teacher wrote:
Royal is basically fked going against SnOw now.

On August 16 2023 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Snow won the same way against Last forever ago, with the proxy reaver push right?

On August 16 2023 19:55 PVJ wrote:
Snow won the same way against Last forever ago, with the proxy reaver push right?

On August 16 2023 19:57 PVJ wrote:
As a terran player what is the rationale for not waiting with the first tank until the second is coming out from the factory and siege them up both deep within the terran main? I always see these situations trying to zone protoss with SCV's then bleeding tanks sequentially

On August 16 2023 20:00 RowdierBob wrote:

He was kinda screwed either way. A zeal, like 5 goons and a reaver on his doorstep before he had siege ready.

On August 16 2023 19:54 prosatan wrote:
i think 90% royal is out! Snow's PvT is out of this world even with the added pressure of ASL

On August 16 2023 20:03 TMNT wrote:

You can't be sure in a BO1 though. Royal is still expected to win 1 game out of 4 against Snow. Also I'm almost certain the map is gonna be Tempest and it's a weird one.

On August 16 2023 20:04 HOLYBATS wrote:

Both can choke really well.

On August 16 2023 20:07 Peeano wrote:
Shuttle has got this! He is one of the best PvZ early game if not the best, i.e.I hardly ever see him get hydra busted.

On August 16 2023 20:16 Peeano wrote:
Calm and Killer 2-0

On August 16 2023 20:18 M2 wrote:
not sure why protosses so rarely start cannons at the front just in case together with the corsairs scout and then cancel them if they find nothing, especially when there is some cheesy openings like zegilings busts

On August 16 2023 20:18 RowdierBob wrote:
Are hydra allins op or protosses too hopeless at scouting/anticipating them?

On August 16 2023 20:21 M2 wrote:

I think this is THE issue with PvZ, protoss has no reliable means to scout at this phase, they have to guess, if they are wrong -> they die, if they guess correct the game goes 50/50
Outside of this the race has all the means to fight toe to with zerg, but this guessing phase is quite devastating for the overall win rate in the match up

On August 16 2023 20:21 Rainalcar wrote:


Because then you bleed out, vs muta, lurker, etc. It's not about cost lost, it's also about everything else falling behind due to sunken costs in cannons. ZvP is imba due mostly to the early stages, but what else is new?

On August 16 2023 20:23 M2 wrote:

Yeah I understand this, but I saw a protoss timing is some games where they start cannons in a way that they are almost ready when the corsair reaches zerg base and if they see nothing they cancel them, but perhaps its not applicable every game

On August 16 2023 20:24 Rainalcar wrote:


Only if you have a really strong backed-up hunch will you see this. Most of the time, it's a guessing game.

On August 16 2023 20:45 prosatan wrote:
what is happening ? is snow falling ??

On August 16 2023 20:48 PVJ wrote:
I would also storm myself to death in a match like this like that high templar did

On August 16 2023 20:52 Rainalcar wrote:
I hope we end up with 1P after the group stage, just to hear how P are not trying enough

On August 16 2023 21:07 prosatan wrote:
did he heard the crowd ??

On August 16 2023 21:18 vtv.Teacher wrote:
Not a good start for Protoss this season... 3 of 4 are eliminated, free has an insanely hard group & it's likely that only Bisu or Stork will move on from Group F.

This season has the potential to only see 2 toss advance...

On August 16 2023 21:24 Peeano wrote:
Well played by Royal in the games he won. He has been a top terran since his ASL gold, unlike another Terran.

On August 16 2023 21:30 TMNT wrote:
Shuttle actually chose the right strategy after Royal kinda gifted him game 1. He knows he can't beat Royal in a standard macro game.

But I wonder if Royal did actually hear the crowd. The SCV made a turnover not once but twice.

On August 16 2023 21:28 Kaolla wrote:


Royal got through somewhat lucky in the RO24, nothing special about that? The dude really is nothing special. He beat a B-tier player today, yay, definitely is not on the level of the elites, but yea, we'll see that in the rest of ASL. Not sure what other terran you mean, but Jyj sure seems more impressive to me.

On August 16 2023 21:48 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Don't get why ASL insists on being bo1 in the ro24

On August 16 2023 20:18 M2 wrote:
not sure why protosses so rarely start cannons at the front just in case together with the corsairs scout and then cancel them if they find nothing, especially when there is some cheesy openings like zegilings busts

On August 16 2023 22:38 WGT-Baal wrote:
Not surprised Mini failed, but disappointed in Snow going 0-2. But then he always chokes, he s like worst than Best in that regard. I remember I argued with somebody calling him the best P ever recently and well... Their argument aged like fine milk.

On August 17 2023 01:04 TMNT wrote:

Maybe it was me (and Magic Power also joined in) but what I said was his peak PvT is the best ever, not him being the best P ever lol. Obviously it stands true still. We just dont see his peak PvT today sadly.

Also can't really say Snow always chokes. He's only improved his PvZ recently. Before it was more the expectation that he lost to Zergs (7 seasons in a row). He did choke today though. Both opponents he holds a win rate of 60-70% online and should have cruised through.

On August 16 2023 21:32 prosatan wrote:

Yes! I saw that too!! Very strange!!

On August 17 2023 01:45 Destroyer wrote:


Im pretty sure he heard the crowd and game got rigged due that. You cannot really hear the commentators or minor talks through that "double shielding"... But clear shout like that, absolutely (even when in booth)!

On August 17 2023 02:08 TMNT wrote:

Shuttle now back streaming and he said he heard the shout too. Well that means Royal also heard it and the SCV turning back right after the shout is quite evident. Shuttle's quite disappointed with it but obviously doesn't blame Royal. It's Afreeca who fucked up this time.

On August 17 2023 03:59 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Fun games from Shuttle. Super unfortunate about the crowd noise. He would have 100% won, no? I hope Afreeca makes some sort of a statement cuz that's some tournament integrity stuff right there.

I honestly enjoy Shuttle's play more than SnOw's, but it's clear the Protoss power is definitely lacking these days. What we need is someone like Ruin to perform well—his style is super cool. The ASL could use a couple more interesting Protoss (and a new format xD).

On August 17 2023 04:37 TMNT wrote:
Apparently Shuttle just released a statement saying sorry (supposedly to Royal) because he was upset and talked about the soundproof incident publicly on his stream after the game. Probably to also calm some of his fans down (as he has a huge fan base and there will be idiots who will go harass Royal after this).

On August 16 2023 20:16 sertas wrote:
Why do protoss always send corsair to enemy main, why not fly through middle to see hydras like 10-15 sec earlier giving a lot more time to make cannons?

On August 17 2023 01:17 RJBTV wrote:


Snow is by leaps and bounds the most dominant a protoss has been, in online play. important thing to emphasize. His online performance is so dominant only Flash and Light(2020+early 2021) have shown such dominance post Kespa. Snows has had months in 2023 where his winrate was at 75%, in pvz, pvt and pvp, combining spons, proleagues and events.

He simply cant translate it to bo1 offline performance. He needs to better handle weird situations and not choke.

On August 17 2023 13:28 Terrorbladder wrote:
After this group I think it's safe to say it's not a map balance/racial balance problem. Protoss players just have a skill issue.

On August 17 2023 17:42 Magic Powers wrote:


I wouldn't even take these trolls seriously. They know exactly that they don't know what they're talking about, they just want to have opinions. "Snow has gotten worse" lmao
The bo1 format during the group stage is just extremely unforgiving. Several games get decided by coin flip scenarios and people actually argue there's any skill involved in that. Even Flash loses many, many games by coin flip.

On August 17 2023 17:53 TMNT wrote:

We both had heated debates in the past and probably will have in the future as well but still can find many mutual grounds. Cheers.

As for complaining about BO1, people seem to forget ASL was still BO1 even in the Ro16 until season 7 and if not for the community voice we would still be looking at that travesty now.

Every time "lesser players" flukes their way out of Ro24 thanks to BO1, they immediately become the most hunted preys in the group nomination and get massacred next round so what's the point? But most of the times they just go home after 2 games anyway. So I'd argue that BO3 in Ro24 at least gives newcomers more chances to showcase their talent/style, instead of just being there.

On August 17 2023 19:13 ggsimida wrote:


im sure players like zelot appreciate a random TL poster hot take that he should just "showcase their talent/style" and have a much higher chance of losing bo3 over his past achievement of topping his ro24 group with bo1.

On August 17 2023 19:59 RJBTV wrote:
Snow haters also forget that there's more to BW than ASL. ASL RO24 might in fact be the poorest metric to track and determine player skill. If anything it is more a test of playing under pressure and keeping oneself collected. Sample size of games is way too small. Ro24 has a lot of coinflips where either player can win. "Lesser" Players deliberately force coinflip situations because they are fully aware their chances of winning decrease playing standard.

Look beyond ASL. Go to Eloboard and click on Snow's name and look at his achievements. Look at Snow winning Multiple Sanpao Spring cups where he more or less played against ASL Ro8 contenders to win those. Look at Ultimate Battle performance, KCM, Proleague, Spon matches. Anyone who claims Snow or protoss overall is doing bad is simply not looking at the truth shown in the data.

Its these uneducated takes that do nothing but show you know not what you're talking about.
Am I a SnOw fan? No. But I got to give credit and criticism where it is due. Snow is great online. He has lately been failing to translate that to offline. Would he fare better in best of sets in offline? More likely yes than not.

There is a reason there's so few amateurs or mid/low tier pros making it into ASL. Qualifiers are all best of three tournaments. Upsets happen in Qualifiers, but not as often as in the Bo1 ro24 format.

On August 17 2023 21:19 Kaolla wrote:
Look at Sea being a great player in Proleague, who remembers him? No one, he didnt accomplish anything. No leagues won is just a crappy player, that's the way ppl look at it and imo it's also right. Sea wasn't that great, he was ok by his teams standards, did win a lot, but yea... Snow.. I mean he might be the worst underperformer ever, if he wants any recognition he has to win ASL.

On August 17 2023 21:44 TMNT wrote:

He's recognized by no other than his colleagues, fellow progamers, casters etc. Ask them who is one of the best Protosses in the modern era, who has the best Reaver control in history, who is always one of the last picks in ASL Ro16 group nomination.

For once, if Artosis continues repeating he has the best PvT in history, lots of people will buy into it, whether it's true or not. Who are the "people" that look at it the way you described, or you're just voicing your personal opinion? I'm sure there are other people who think like you. But it's a pity that our people > your people.

On August 17 2023 22:12 Magic Powers wrote:
It can be argued that every ASL title holder does deserve their title, but the reverse claim is absurd. An ASL title is a freak occurrence that only few have a realistic shot at. Snow reached two ASL finals and placed second both times (against Rain and Flash). Sharp reached one ASL final and also placed second (against Shuttle). Soma reached one ASL final and likewise placed second (against Queen).

JyJ was in one ASL final and won (against Mind). So allegedly JyJ has proven himself worthy, but not Snow, Sharp or Soma. Ok, makes complete sense. /s

Furthermore, if an ASL title is how we measure a player's true accomplishment, why are there still people saying that Royal is a bad player? He has a title and he even gives Soma a run for his money. He's now on his way to another run.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either the ASL title means everything, or it's only one of many puzzle pieces that determine a truly accomplished player. You can't argue it's both at the same time.

On August 17 2023 22:43 Postaljester_ wrote:
PvZ is a lame matchup. Players are too good to have only side scouting

On August 17 2023 21:58 Kaolla wrote:


It doesn't matter what Artosis says and if he can beat Artosis with scouts, he's definitely good, that's not the point. It's just when asked about good players, he will never be in people's minds. Just like Sea wouldn't make any terran top 10 list despite all his best efforts back in the days. Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments. He won't be remembered, Stork and Bisu will go down as much better players, despite Snow actually being better now. And I mean you can even add Mini to the list. I think Snow is a much better player but it doesn't matter, Snow always fails.

On August 17 2023 23:01 TMNT wrote:

I have to ask you again, who are the people you're referring to? Because if you're into the Korean scene, you'll know that no one cares about JYJ even now let alone in the future. Royal will probaby be treated the same, unless they win a couple more. But many will remember Snow and his reaver.

Snow must be the equivalent of a tennis player who spends many weeks at the top of the ATP ranking, has the best drop shot in the history of the game, but never won a Grand Slam. I'm sure if such player existed he'll be remembered fondly by fans and colleagues.

On August 17 2023 23:14 Magic Powers wrote:


No one was arguing about Snow being remembered. We're talking about his skill.

On August 17 2023 23:32 Kaolla wrote:

I was, it's no doubt he's a great player that is not the point at all, read previous posts. This feels like you've skipped out on all of the conversation.

On August 17 2023 22:51 EndingLife wrote:

Don't lose scouting probe to slow lings.

On August 17 2023 22:23 RJBTV wrote:
it is really just some foreigners who put this much weight into an ASL title and ignore other tournaments with efffevtively the exact same players in it. Look at starcast new worlds. who made it to the top 8? look at past castermuse starleague seasons. those had the same players as ASL at the time did. are we going to ignore that too? ASL does have the most production quality invested into it, but winning ASL does not make one better than winning another tournament with the same players. Its just being narrow and closed minded with your eyes wide shut to ignore those. Light was the best player in 2020 but won no ASL in 2020. He dominated everything else in fashion even better than flash did. Right now Snow is doing the same thing. He is dominating everything except ASL.

On August 18 2023 00:00 Nirli wrote:
It would be interesting to see what would happen if daily proleague had Light and, instead of all the "new blood" Terrans (Rush, Royal, JyJ), Flash, Last and Fantasy (whom I consider a natural talent and not just some grinder like many of his colleagues). Would be very interested to see the results then.

On August 18 2023 00:07 TMNT wrote:

I assume you're implying that Snow will perform worse. And you're not wrong, his PvT won't look like this anymore. But the likes of Bisu Mini and Best will even have a harder time. But guess who will suffer the most? Zergs. JD will just move to K League full time lol.

On August 17 2023 23:49 Postaljester_ wrote:


That is up the Zerg player messing up. Not blocking ramp or just being lazy and having the lings following the probe. If the Zerg wants that probe is either dead or never getting up the ramp in the first place.

On August 18 2023 00:01 TMNT wrote:

One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.

For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.

But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?

On August 18 2023 11:43 Smorrie wrote:
All top tier ASL participants generally are playing for recognition and legacy. It's the most prestigious tournament with relatively little (financial) incentive, while requiring a lot of preparation and effort.

Proleague doesn't come remotely close to ASL in terms of prestige and is centered around entertainment and financial incentives instead.

TMNT's proleague posts are a testament of that. It gets a lot less viewership (especially globally) and thus also coverage. People love to see their favorite players duke it out and keep track of form, but aside from a skill benchmark it doesn't do too much for legacy.

Obviously Snow is not a nobody, but his recent peak PvT reign has been way too short to have a meaningful impact on the long term perception of his legacy, especially when he keeps failing to perform when it matters most. Recency bias is very strong in some of these posts above. His current popularity is also heavily influenced by his streaming career.

Winning championships is what makes the greatest players. Even Messi's legacy got a huge boost after winning the world cup. Regardless of winning so many CL titles and Ballon d'Ors, for many this was the final hurdle he needed to overcome to consider him the true goat, even though he definitely was passed his peak form.

On August 18 2023 00:01 TMNT wrote:

One of the reasons I'm maintaining the mega proleague thread here is because in the past I was frustrated many times when I saw some foreigners misjudging players because the only thing they watch is ASL, and they deduce everything based on a few isolated games there.

For example, one common misconception back then was how everyone thought Mini's PvZ was next level to Bisu after he 4-1 Queen twice in ASL, without knowing that he was kind of a bogeyman to Queen and his PvZ overall even at that time did not match the hype from the 4-1.

But oh well, for some people ASL will always be the only thing they can fathom. Even when you show it to their eyes they choose to close them. What else can you do?

On August 18 2023 18:26 Magic Powers wrote:


I think it's one thing to be ignorant and have opinions, it's entirely another thing to use inflammatory language and then to deny obvious facts when scrutinized by people who seem to know what they're talking about. Opinions and disagreements are fine, but the level of toxicity by haters is really out of proportion sometimes.

On August 18 2023 19:20 TMNT wrote:
Snow is now calling 910 (ASL director) for the next ASL to be held online + Show Spoiler +

On August 18 2023 19:31 RJBTV wrote:
To add to the above, many foreign fans are living in the past and disregard present day talent in favor of praising Kespa era top talent. Many still hype up Bisu and Jaedong as if they are presently still the best in their respective races and often dont give credit where it is due. Queen, Last, Rain and Light for example deserve to be considered as ASL/KSL era greats. They have a wide variety of achievements. Yet people talk about Rain as some scrub for losing in ro24, as if he was never that good.

On August 18 2023 19:31 Peeano wrote:

Lol. So being back on topic. Did you happen to hear anything (more) on Shuttle vs Royal and the crowd giving intel to Royal he shouldn't have. I'm really curious about this. While online play would really hurt the entertainment value of ASL it would ironically negate the crowd from giving away info to the players.

On August 19 2023 01:47 Smorrie wrote:
Honestly, I don't really see the problem. Fans can like whoever they like. Ironically, I'd say trying to enforce who people should hold in higher regard is the actual issue ^_^;

Skill level benchmarks just aren't very impactful for one's legacy - that's the discussion I tuned into. Even though it appears it's difficult to separate these from each other and the discussion easily gets clouded.

Winning an OSL/ASL isn't the be all and end all, but it generally does a lot more for one's legacy. It's what people remember most and what goes down in the history books.

Do you honestly remember who were top contenders near the end of the KESPA era? I wouldn't know. I know Flash & JD duked it out. JD had a killer final in MSL with a controversial power outage. Fantasy finally won an OSL when Flash & JD got eliminated. JangBi won an OSL and added himself to the elite protoss ranks. What about other players in that era? I honestly can not recall any proleague records, except for some generic narratives. That's the power of winning the most prestigious tournaments.

On August 18 2023 20:11 Peeano wrote:
Tbf Bisu did go carriers that game and thus still giving Flash a win

With Shuttle vs Royal, while it wouldn't have been auto-win for Shuttle if the crowd didn't interfere, I feel like it would be silly to say the interference didn't (significantly) decrease Shuttle's chance. Unlike Flash, Shuttle didn't win. It's commendable Shuttle put out any potential fires.

I mentioned booth in an earlier post, because I imagine it's better than nothing at all. I believe it's something ASL could invest in given we're on the 16th edition already.

On August 19 2023 02:28 WGT-Baal wrote:
btw I m sorry if this whole side discussion started due to my little banter at my fellow active TL-er regarding snow s skill and prediction coming into this ASL. I intended it mostly in jest.

On August 19 2023 03:12 Smorrie wrote:
Nobody said Snow is a bad player, not even the bait posts that sparked the discussion.

On August 16 2023 19:56 Kaolla wrote:
I mean I do think Royal is a cheese terran anyway

Snow losing in the RO24... Seriously, how can anyone take this guy seriously.... Best PvT... yea, right, best choker in the game.

Royal got through somewhat lucky in the RO24, nothing special about that? The dude really is nothing special. He beat a B-tier player today, yay, definitely is not on the level of the elites, but yea, we'll see that in the rest of ASL. Not sure what other terran you mean, but Jyj sure seems more impressive to me.

He can be the best everywhere, as long as he doesn't win ASL, he's nothing.

No leagues won is just a crappy player

Titiles are important in this and Snow doesn't have one and in general is just a shitty player in (televised) tournaments

On August 19 2023 03:12 Smorrie wrote:
I tried to support a valid claim made earlier in this thread which got collectively disregarded, partially due to the tone of voice and misinterpretation.

He can be the best everywhere, as long as he doesn't win ASL, he's nothing.

If Snow wins ASL, do you think it will have any significant impact on his current perceived greatness and his future legacy?

I'm arguing that, while an ASL title means a player IS in fact accomplished, the lack of an ASL title does not mean that they're NOT accomplished.

On August 19 2023 04:38 TMNT wrote:
Actually I didn't notice he called Royal a cheese player (probably because Royal cheesed a few times in his run to his ASL title). Proved that this guy has no clue about the current scene. He just watches ASL and thinks he knows it all.

ASL titles mean everything. Just like OSL and MSL (lesser) titles meant everything in the past. Jyj and Shuttle, and even Royal, will go down in history bigger than Snow and Sea for that matter. That's just the way it is.

How is that equal to your argument:


which is more or less in agreement with Magic Power:

On August 19 2023 03:21 Ideas wrote:


Yea I always thought it was strange that ASL never had the same soundproofing equipment that KESPA used but now we have a pretty clear-cut case of the lack of said equipment directly affecting the outcome of a game. It's really about time ASL installs some soundproof booths on their set to avoid this going forward.

On August 19 2023 06:12 Smorrie wrote:


I agree Royal is not defined by cheese play. He did have quite some cheese openings through his ASL run though. I'd argue that all those openers were part of a calculated tournament strategy to not become too predictable and survive all the way to the end, even though that's just pure speculation.

Aside from that, I also agree there are quite some baits posted lol... before those posts there are some gems to be found in the thread... your average ASL viewer ^_^;;;



^ that's what resonated with me originally



Fair point - I think it still has its own subtle difference, but I mainly wanted to offer a different perspective. Ultimately though, that quote is from a post from before I actively entered the discussion and it was not on my radar.

I think SoulKey, Soma & Hero are in a similar predicament. They are all waiting to catch momentum where they rise above and become able to force their will upon their opponents at any time & make a mark in the history books. Snow appears to be the guy closest to making that happen right now, but has been failing to do so. Until then they are all just amongst the 'greatest players', waiting to join the legendary ranks of players like ZerO, JD, Bisu, etc.

I have extensively exceeded my annual post capacity though - I need to go back into lurking, these useless discussions are a terrible way to use my limited time >_<

On August 25 2023 04:30 Sabu113 wrote:
I am unbelievably salty about game 1

….

I am the Dead Sea. Feels like 2013.

Man 2 asls a year for this is kinda killing me. Bleh I just want more snow not these b tier terrans and zergs. Not a good start to the ro24

Wish the tastosis stream did more than a 2x a year tournament.

On August 19 2023 22:25 WGT-Baal wrote:


As former staff/admin in big events with booths and public, let me tell you that this is always squarely the organizer s responsibility. ASL dropped the ball hard on that one, especially since better booth have been a thing almost literally anywhere else.
You cannot control fan's behaviour as a live audience (and shouldn't) and also the casters are here to entertain and be excited, or else what s the point?
The problem is indeed easily solved ... by better booths

On August 16 2023 21:17 BlueStar wrote:
Awful maps for protoss. Like... really... terrible.