EPT[ASL15] Ro4 Day 2 - Page 9
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On April 21 2023 19:02 Maks wrote: Who can say after that Flash is the best Starcraft player? How do you separate the strength of the Terrans from that of the Flash? Flash has retired, yet Terran players continue to dominate the scene. He's still the best. No doubt about that. Here's a relative way to look at it: even though Terran players continue to dominate the scene, no one's been able to dominate LIKE Flash. That means the best Terran individual after Flash is more or less on par with the best Protoss or Zerg individuals, which means Flash is above them all. | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On April 21 2023 20:10 M2 wrote: Terran players or perhaps the race itself certainly look pretty good when they have time to prepare for a particular series on particular maps. Does this mean that the race is op or is it even true? I am not sure, but it certainly looks like this format was good for the terrans throughout the years For me it's mostly about maps. The current concept of a standard macro map has to be subverted to balance the game. In the modern era, what are the standard maps? FS? Polypoid? Eclipse? Vermeer? All of them have Terran win rate more or less at 55% (maybe less so for Eclipse, I don't remember). Vermeer was supposed to be the new "balanced, standard" map but it's becoming worse than FS and Polypoid with Terran win rate on both matchups sitting at 56-57%. Also keep in mind that Flash never played a game on Vermeer. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5201 Posts
On April 21 2023 19:02 Maks wrote: Who can say after that Flash is the best Starcraft player? How do you separate the strength of the Terrans from that of the Flash? Flash has retired, yet Terran players continue to dominate the scene. Flash will always be the goat. Protoss and Zerg players just need to step it up. JyJ and Mind in the finals is just a big joke if you consider all the pontential. Go check the liquibet polls. TL isn't delusional. JyJ and Mind performed well, maybe even better than we thought they could. They earn credit for that. However many top players underperformed, significantly so. ASL results alone isn't a good gauge to judge race imba unless you only care about how ppl perform on stage. Even then the sample size is still too small to say anything meaningful. And that's where history comes in... Flash is the best. | ||
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Maks
Ukraine177 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
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Postaljester_
33 Posts
14 T 6 P 10 Z Currently the highest Zerg is #6 highest toss is #2 That is a cool website too bad I don’t know Hangul | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
Basically, after going through the MSL/OSL record back in Kespa days, it was found out that in qualifiers, the race distribution was always basically 33:33:33, but then Protoss just got eliminated more during qualifiers and then in the final tournaments they are under-represented compared to Zerg and Terran, with Terran over-represented I think. I mean, all evidences regarding race balance just point to the same direction after 25 years. They can't be all coincidences. | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=map_stac Polypoid: 56.3% Vermeer: 57% Eclipse: 52.6% Sylphid: 59.6% (who let this happen?) Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever) Allegro: 51.4% Ascension: 58.5% Revolver: 54.3% Butter: 53% Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro) Nemesis: 56.1% Odyssey: 56.9% Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh) Monopoly: 51.9% 76: 52.3% Neo Arkanoid: 51.6% Retro: 50.4% (there's hope) Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here) Dark Orgin: 46.5% Heartbreak Ridge: 46.1% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T) With this stats I'm surprised Zerg players haven't moaned more during the years. Maybe because they still get to beat Protoss? Also hilarious that FS and Eclipse are the two maps Arty hate the most while Vermeer was well made according to him >  | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States721 Posts
Best was committed to gatewayman and shuttles because he couldn't practice every style. Mind could practice every style because Terran has basically one flexible style. | ||
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Postaljester_
33 Posts
On April 22 2023 03:14 TMNT wrote: I had a heated debate with someone on this forum a while ago on a topic quite relevant to this matter. Basically, after going through the MSL/OSL record back in Kespa days, it was found out that in qualifiers, the race distribution was always basically 33:33:33, but then Protoss just got eliminated more during qualifiers and then in the final tournaments they are under-represented compared to Zerg and Terran, with Terran over-represented I think. I mean, all evidences regarding race balance just point to the same direction after 25 years. They can't be all coincidences. I will also add KCM to your considerations. I love the format but Protoss barely has any wins. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 22 2023 04:10 Postaljester_ wrote: I will also add KCM to your considerations. I love the format but Protoss barely has any wins. Protoss won two out of the last 4 KCM finals... Also I think it is in part an issue of the protoss talent pool being very shallow compared to zerg and terran. Very promising up and coming protoss players and some of the old guard have quit competition or are out because of injuries. | ||
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redknights
206 Posts
Also I believe there was an longtime meme among BW pros where Protoss players say that the stats on eloboard/sponbbang show that supposedly Protoss favored maps in PvT (like Ascension) have actually higher Terran winrates than expected, and then the Terran players respond that those stats are skewed bc of crappy Protoss players like YSC losing to everyone | ||
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TMNT
3113 Posts
On April 22 2023 04:49 RJBTV wrote: Protoss won two out of the last 4 KCM finals... Yeah but they won 3 out of the last 25 or so, so... Also there were some dodgy line-ups for Terran and Zerg in some weeks in recent seasons (like legitimately fielding 2-3 tier 2 players) while with Protoss it was almost 3 out of the big 4 every time. | ||
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Postaljester_
33 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On April 22 2023 03:34 TMNT wrote: Maybe I should start a new thread on this as well, because I normally was more concerned about P win rate being sub 50% in all matchups. But the last two seasons have me realized that TvZ is also a big problem: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=map_stac Polypoid: 56.3% Vermeer: 57% Eclipse: 52.6% Sylphid: 59.6% (who let this happen?) Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever) Allegro: 51.4% Ascension: 58.5% Revolver: 54.3% Butter: 53% Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro) Nemesis: 56.1% Odyssey: 56.9% Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh) Monopoly: 51.9% 76: 52.3% Neo Arkanoid: 51.6% Retro: 50.4% (there's hope) Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here) Dark Orgin: 46.5% Heartbreak Ridge: 46.1% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat With this stats I'm surprised Zerg players haven't moaned more during the years. Maybe because they still get to beat Protoss? Also hilarious that FS and Eclipse are the two maps Arty hate the most while Vermeer was well made according to him > The biggest problem is how most "balanced" maps are always against P and slightly good for Terran against both P and Z. I think in the Kespa Era there were some maps that Terran testers simply lobbied against because T was at a slight disadvantage but somehow maps like Raid Assault/Arkanoid/BattleRoyal which were PvZ abominations were considered Ok. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
There was recently an interview with a mapmaker posted here on TL — sorry, I forget the name — who said that fun was more important than balance and that if you can get within 55–45, you’re doing a good job. And I’m sure he’s right on both counts. But if nearly all the maps skew 55–45 in the same direction, it starts being hard to win a BoX. If I play a Bo7 against you, and you’re favored 55–45 in every game, my odds of winning the Bo7 are a lot lower than 45%. And yes, fun is more important than balance, but why not both? Daily proleagues generate a huge amount of data, and people are already compiling the statistics (such as those that TMNT quoted), so where’s the part where we adjust the maps that aren’t within 52–48 or else toss them out, and start building up a bank of fun maps that are balanced in all three matchups? I’m not seeing the obstacle here. Complaining about BW balance isn’t my hobbyhorse, but I do really wonder what the point of collecting data is if it never gets used. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
On April 22 2023 04:49 RJBTV wrote: Protoss won two out of the last 4 KCM finals... Also I think it is in part an issue of the protoss talent pool being very shallow compared to zerg and terran. Very promising up and coming protoss players and some of the old guard have quit competition or are out because of injuries. yeah.. and 3 out of 25 (!!!) editions overall.. that's a laughable 12% winrate. P is clearly the most volatlie and the hardest race to play at semi-pro and pro levels no debate | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
On April 22 2023 13:33 Djabanete wrote: I sometimes wonder why, with so much data available, we don’t yet have a set of 7 maps that are all within, say, 52–48 in all three matchups. There was recently an interview with a mapmaker posted here on TL — sorry, I forget the name — who said that fun was more important than balance and that if you can get within 55–45, you’re doing a good job. And I’m sure he’s right on both counts. But if nearly all the maps skew 55–45 in the same direction, it starts being hard to win a BoX. If I play a Bo7 against you, and you’re favored 55–45 in every game, my odds of winning the Bo7 are a lot lower than 45%. And yes, fun is more important than balance, but why not both? Daily proleagues generate a huge amount of data, and people are already compiling the statistics (such as those that TMNT quoted), so where’s the part where we adjust the maps that aren’t within 52–48 or else toss them out, and start building up a bank of fun maps that are balanced in all three matchups? I’m not seeing the obstacle here. Complaining about BW balance isn’t my hobbyhorse, but I do really wonder what the point of collecting data is if it never gets used. it's a mystery, indeed.. great post, agree about it all | ||
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