[ASL15] Ro4 Day 2

On April 18 2023 17:33 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
go, go JyJ ! ! !

A bo7 TvT finals sound good to me, especially considering the map pool

On April 18 2023 19:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Hero is a fucking genius

On April 18 2023 20:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:
why the fuck did I bet on JyJ

On April 18 2023 20:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:
why the fuck did I bet on JyJ

On April 18 2023 20:18 prosatan wrote:

did u bet on Best yesterday BLinD-RawR ?

I went with Best / Hero

On April 18 2023 20:29 TMNT wrote:

Also Hero has been to semis and finals for countless times without ever winning one. He's due one title.

On April 18 2023 20:42 Peeano wrote:
What a scrappy game lmao

On April 18 2023 20:55 Kaal wrote:
chasing those 2 lings with those 2 marines was some D rank brain move. only had to put one in mineral line to be able to keep mining. if he had the other at entrance he probably lives.

On April 18 2023 21:47 HOLYBATS wrote:
Back 2 back tvt finals. Isn't the maps are anti T ?

On April 18 2023 21:47 HOLYBATS wrote:
Back 2 back tvt finals. Isn't the maps are anti T ?

On April 18 2023 21:54 Rainalcar wrote:
Oh look, terran winner again.

On April 18 2023 21:53 prosatan wrote:
is there a match between Best and hero for the 3rd place ?

On April 18 2023 21:56 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
why did they scrapped the 3rd place btw, anyone knows? after such a long time, too..

a bit of a shame because there was no pressure on the players and sometimes it had better games than the grand final.

On April 18 2023 21:59 TMNT wrote:

I guess it's kind of a pointless game. Neither players are really interested in it, and the viewers as well. Same reason that many sports don't have that game as well.

On April 19 2023 02:39 TMNT wrote:
I probably won't watch the finals but I hope Mind takes it.

To me JYJ's run is still a fluke because he didn't really show anything special last ASLs or his form online. Also he gets to dodge TvP.

Meanwhile, Mind has always been a top Terran. MSL Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the ASL era (before he went to the military and the trio of Light Rush Royal stepped up). It took him one season to get back to top form but at least we know this is what he's always capable of.

And guess what? After coming back from the military, Zero also wasn't able to qualify for one season, only to come back and win 2 in a row.

On April 19 2023 03:09 superjoppe wrote:
Meh, I guess the finals will be 5 hours of tank battles. I would much rather have an intense TvZ final. Anyway, congrats on both Mind and Jyj for going this far!

On April 19 2023 03:01 RJBTV wrote:


JyJ's been slowly creeping up higher in the ASL placements since Season 7. He's proven himself to be a rock solid competitor on stage. He's got nerves as cold as ice and maintains focus.

On April 19 2023 03:09 superjoppe wrote:
Meh, I guess the finals will be 5 hours of tank battles. I would much rather have an intense TvZ final. Anyway, congrats on both Mind and Jyj for going this far!

On April 19 2023 03:01 RJBTV wrote:


JyJ's been slowly creeping up higher in the ASL placements since Season 7. He's proven himself to be a rock solid competitor on stage. He's got nerves as cold as ice and maintains focus. It is definitely not a fluke. BUT the problem this ASL lies in the favorites crapping the bed and going out miserably which definitely changed who could progress to the finals. Mini and Soma being in Ro16 would have changed everything dramatically because they are, with light, the most dominant players in online play. But as this ASL has shown, online play =/= offline play. JyJ and Hero are both prime examples of this.

Other pros praise his insane attention to optimization details and macro. Other pros recognize his skill.

On April 18 2023 20:29 TMNT wrote:
I want Hero to advance because that way Best would never have to "what if", as he'd lose to Hero in the finals anyway.

Also Hero has been to semis and finals for countless times without ever winning one. He's due one title.

On April 19 2023 03:01 RJBTV wrote:
Mini and Soma being in Ro16 would have changed everything dramatically because they are, with light, the most dominant players in online play. But as this ASL has shown, online play =/= offline play.

On April 18 2023 21:50 Zariel wrote:
I dont get why TvT finals is all that bad to be honest, maybe cuz I'm a terran purist. I really like the chess and strategical aspect of it

On April 19 2023 08:30 Artas1984 wrote:


Those were exactly my thoughts.. Hero at this point is the most consistent top pro in ASL to always go far and not win a trophy. Well at least this match was entertaining, unlike Best vs. Mind... But i do have to say, JYJ vs. Soulkey was better.



You don't know that. Mini and Soma might have flopped spectacularly in the RO16 just like they did in RO24. If they sucked in RO24, chances are they would have sucked in RO16 as well. Also, Snow is the MOST dominant player online, and BY FAR. His win-rate coming to this ASL was a whopping 10 % higher than anybody's. He was the true nr. 1 favorite to win this season.

On April 19 2023 19:16 TMNT wrote:
I just realized that since Flash went away, there has been 5 ASLs, of which we have 3 Terran winners and 6 finalists.

Meanwhile, online the overall win rate for Terran hasn't changed one bit.

Certainly no one's gonna be able to say "It's just Flash" now.

On April 19 2023 03:31 outscar wrote:
Is 2 port wraith JyJ's new secret weapon? He closed both TvZ series with that.
All that 5 zergs ro8 to give us TvT final. Terran is the master race! 910 needs to come up with HEAVY anti terran maps next season lol (+ anti FlaSh ^^).

Also what's up with falling out of chair whenever you seeded to finals lol. Last season RoyaL now JyJ.

On April 19 2023 20:25 Simplistik wrote:
Kinda shame about TvT final, but pleased for JyJ, and also pretty good series. There were some good epic moments.

No 3rd place play-off eh?

On April 19 2023 19:16 TMNT wrote:
I just realized that since Flash went away, there has been 5 ASLs, of which we have 3 Terran winners and 6 finalists.

Meanwhile, online the overall win rate for Terran hasn't changed one bit.

Certainly no one's gonna be able to say "It's just Flash" now.

On April 19 2023 14:54 Sonic_md wrote:
Final TvT
Score 4-3
Every game 30+ minutes )))

On April 21 2023 19:02 Maks wrote:
Who can say after that Flash is the best Starcraft player? How do you separate the strength of the Terrans from that of the Flash? Flash has retired, yet Terran players continue to dominate the scene.

On April 21 2023 20:10 M2 wrote:
Terran players or perhaps the race itself certainly look pretty good when they have time to prepare for a particular series on particular maps. Does this mean that the race is op or is it even true? I am not sure, but it certainly looks like this format was good for the terrans throughout the years

On April 21 2023 19:02 Maks wrote:
Who can say after that Flash is the best Starcraft player? How do you separate the strength of the Terrans from that of the Flash? Flash has retired, yet Terran players continue to dominate the scene.

On April 22 2023 03:14 TMNT wrote:
I had a heated debate with someone on this forum a while ago on a topic quite relevant to this matter.

Basically, after going through the MSL/OSL record back in Kespa days, it was found out that in qualifiers, the race distribution was always basically 33:33:33, but then Protoss just got eliminated more during qualifiers and then in the final tournaments they are under-represented compared to Zerg and Terran, with Terran over-represented I think.

I mean, all evidences regarding race balance just point to the same direction after 25 years. They can't be all coincidences.

On April 22 2023 04:10 Postaljester_ wrote:


I will also add KCM to your considerations. I love the format but Protoss barely has any wins.

On April 22 2023 04:49 RJBTV wrote:


Protoss won two out of the last 4 KCM finals...

On April 22 2023 03:34 TMNT wrote:
Maybe I should start a new thread on this as well, because I normally was more concerned about P win rate being sub 50% in all matchups. But the last two seasons have me realized that TvZ is also a big problem:

http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=map_stac
Polypoid: 56.3%
Vermeer: 57%
Eclipse: 52.6%
Sylphid: 59.6% (who let this happen?)
Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever)
Allegro: 51.4%
Ascension: 58.5%
Revolver: 54.3%
Butter: 53%
Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro)
Nemesis: 56.1%
Odyssey: 56.9%
Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh)
Monopoly: 51.9%
76: 52.3%
Neo Arkanoid: 51.6%

Retro: 50.4% (there's hope)
Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here)

Dark Orgin: 46.5%
Heartbreak Ridge: 46.1% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat

With this stats I'm surprised Zerg players haven't moaned more during the years. Maybe because they still get to beat Protoss?

Also hilarious that FS and Eclipse are the two maps Arty hate the most while Vermeer was well made according to him >

On April 22 2023 04:49 RJBTV wrote:


Protoss won two out of the last 4 KCM finals...
Also I think it is in part an issue of the protoss talent pool being very shallow compared to zerg and terran. Very promising up and coming protoss players and some of the old guard have quit competition or are out because of injuries.

On April 22 2023 13:33 Djabanete wrote:
I sometimes wonder why, with so much data available, we don’t yet have a set of 7 maps that are all within, say, 52–48 in all three matchups.

There was recently an interview with a mapmaker posted here on TL — sorry, I forget the name — who said that fun was more important than balance and that if you can get within 55–45, you’re doing a good job. And I’m sure he’s right on both counts.

But if nearly all the maps skew 55–45 in the same direction, it starts being hard to win a BoX. If I play a Bo7 against you, and you’re favored 55–45 in every game, my odds of winning the Bo7 are a lot lower than 45%. And yes, fun is more important than balance, but why not both?

Daily proleagues generate a huge amount of data, and people are already compiling the statistics (such as those that TMNT quoted), so where’s the part where we adjust the maps that aren’t within 52–48 or else toss them out, and start building up a bank of fun maps that are balanced in all three matchups? I’m not seeing the obstacle here.

Complaining about BW balance isn’t my hobbyhorse, but I do really wonder what the point of collecting data is if it never gets used.