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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On September 08 2020 10:28 TornadoSteve wrote:
How long does he exactly need to fully recover from his army time ? Its ridiculous. Hero and ssak are almost back in full strenght already (imo). To me, this is clear that bisu is playing at his peak and never really played better than this... Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever and this is why ive been enjoying it so much ; unfortunately, multitasking, micro and macro wont be sufficient to compensate his poor decision making anymore. And im being polite, there is no other guy close to this level who come close to Bisu in terms of poor decision making. Nope, not even Mini.
Not everyone can sustain high levels of motivation. Look at Sea, Rain, etc.
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Yeah indeed, so they both stopped streaming (bw at least). He wont follow that path though, guy seems to love money much.
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On September 08 2020 10:28 TornadoSteve wrote:
How long does he exactly need to fully recover from his army time ? Its ridiculous. Hero and ssak are almost back in full strenght already (imo). To me, this is clear that bisu is playing at his peak and never really played better than this... Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever and this is why ive been enjoying it so much ; unfortunately, multitasking, micro and macro wont be sufficient to compensate his poor decision making anymore. And im being polite, there is no other guy close to this level who come close to Bisu in terms of poor decision making. Nope, not even Mini.
Now this is a hot take.
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TLADT24920 Posts
These games were so lopsided that it was pretty ridiculous. If you showed someone the games and took out the player names, they'd never guess Bisu played in any of them. Well, maybe except in the Shine one lol. You had game 1 where Leta outmacroed Bisu after discovering the hidden robo and easily defended the reaver. Game 2 was Shine pretty much telling JyJ that he's going to all-in by showing him the hydras, killing a depot and an SCV then pulling back and wasting another 20 minutes to gg. The moment his all-in was scouted and the attack failed especially when he donated all his mutas and couldn't snipe a single tank was game over. Sad part was that he seemed to make some headway with his queen usage and frontal pushes near his exp/3rd, but after that one strong showing, he kept messing up his micro and couldn't do anything. For some odd reason, he would keep attacking with pure hydras with no lurker or defilers. One could argue that he was putting all his gas into queens, but that was not going to help him break out as easily as getting several lurkers under a swarm and pushing back the tank line constantly.
Not much to say on the TvT. Bisu vs Shine PvZ was interesting, but also funny and would recommend. The one game that was probably worth watching. Finally, that last game, don't get me started. The lackluster micro was just bad. The zealot vs marine micro early on where he walked past a red hp marine then the zealot+goon vs 4 marine micro... I was figuratively shaking my head watching that. One marine needed a single hit but Bisu instead decided to ignore it and spread his dps out killing 2 from 4 marines. He could've gotten all 4 and that game would've been totally different. Then he decided to attack a relatively decent position without any prebattle positional micro and while his carrier were still in Jyj's main. To top it all off, he decides to go for the one unit in the protoss arsenal that he is plain terrible at using. Why not play for the macro game? Grab a couple more bases, mass gateways with arbiter tech. JyJ didn't even go heavy goliath when he scouted the carrier especially when he scanned and confirmed that Bisu wasn't tricking him. Ahh was just too terrible. Not to take anything from Jyj, he played solid, but this Bisu today was not close in skill to the Bisu before the army. It's true that Bisu's PvT was always suspect. Anyone remember his ASL game vs Flash on FS where Flash killed Bisu who had like 5-6 bases after Bisu did one of the worst stasis' ever? But at his early to mid game was solid. These games felt really messy.
This Bisu looked like an amateur thrown into a pit of lions waiting to be devoured. I've seen some people say that Bisu doesn't care anymore and isn't motivated. Perhaps that is the case, but I also doubt that he'd keep trying his hand at the qualifiers after failing in the first two. I think I read someone stating that he wasn't even motivated before the army in another thread which I don't buy at all. Time will tell if he'll ever regain his form or if this is the new reality for Bisu fans.
Edit: sSak has done really well since his return. His game vs hero in astl on eclipse was just so so solid that it was pretty impressive.
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Yeah... dude there are thousands of talented players who cant make it to the ASL top 24.
Bisu is legend for a reason.
To Steve, saw bigfans post after.
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On September 08 2020 15:30 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 10:28 TornadoSteve wrote:
How long does he exactly need to fully recover from his army time ? Its ridiculous. Hero and ssak are almost back in full strenght already (imo). To me, this is clear that bisu is playing at his peak and never really played better than this... Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever and this is why ive been enjoying it so much ; unfortunately, multitasking, micro and macro wont be sufficient to compensate his poor decision making anymore. And im being polite, there is no other guy close to this level who come close to Bisu in terms of poor decision making. Nope, not even Mini. Now this is a hot take.
From what I have gathered, Bisu has huge pressure on him, from fans and haters alike(from stream, homepage). I still think it was more of a choke than bad form. Bisu is constantly third in sponrankings with over 60% winrates while some like Hero struggle to get into top 10.
Like before army Bisu seldom played in online tournaments and was more of "bububuu, Money money". And his tvp has always been suspect, remember Asl 2 his games against Sea?
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On September 08 2020 15:59 whaski wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 15:30 Miragee wrote:On September 08 2020 10:28 TornadoSteve wrote:
How long does he exactly need to fully recover from his army time ? Its ridiculous. Hero and ssak are almost back in full strenght already (imo). To me, this is clear that bisu is playing at his peak and never really played better than this... Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever and this is why ive been enjoying it so much ; unfortunately, multitasking, micro and macro wont be sufficient to compensate his poor decision making anymore. And im being polite, there is no other guy close to this level who come close to Bisu in terms of poor decision making. Nope, not even Mini. Now this is a hot take. From what I have gathered, Bisu has huge pressure on him, from fans and haters alike(from stream, homepage). I still think it was more of a choke than bad form. Bisu is constantly third in sponrankings with over 60% winrates while some like Hero struggle to get into top 10. Like before army Bisu seldom played in online tournaments and was more of "bububuu, Money money". And his tvp has always been suspect, remember Asl 2 his games against Sea?
I was being sarcastic. I personally find it mind-boggling that there are still people who argue that the mechanical level is higher today than it was during the Kespa days, which is factually untrue. Furthermore, if you compare Bisu's mechanics now to his mechanics back then, it's laughable. What BigFan pointed out in his post is a good example for this: There is no way Bisu would have screwed up his early game micro vs terran that bad back in the day. And his play was littered with this sort of mistakes so it wasn't just an odd one out.
That being said, I certainly agree with you that pressure played a role and that his showing was worse than what his current form is like.
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On September 08 2020 17:36 Miragee wrote:
I personally find it mind-boggling that there are still people who argue that the mechanical level is higher today than it was during the Kespa days.
I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue this.
The level of play and where people spend their mechanical level is way better today, so I might see people saying that people are more mechanically efficient today, and in that sense the level is higher.
But I don't think anyone argues that the pure mechanical skill is close to what it was during peak Kespa-era.
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On September 08 2020 19:41 Barneyk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 17:36 Miragee wrote:
I personally find it mind-boggling that there are still people who argue that the mechanical level is higher today than it was during the Kespa days. I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue this. The level of play and where ", so I might see people saying that people are more mechanically efficient today, and in that sense the level is higher. But I don't think anyone argues that the pure mechanical skill is close to what it was during peak Kespa-era.
Well, read the comment I originally quoted. Saying "Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever" is either badly worded or means what I said above. I would argue that evolving general knowlegde, including strategy and "where people spend their mechanical level is way better today", is somewhat seperate from personal skill development.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this topic with this type of discussion again; so sorry I brought that up.
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On September 08 2020 21:56 Miragee wrote:
Well, read the comment I originally quoted. Saying "Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever" is either badly worded or means what I said above. I would argue that evolving general knowlegde, including strategy and "where people spend their mechanical level is way better today", is somewhat seperate from personal skill development.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this topic with this type of discussion again; so sorry I brought that up.
No, it is talking about general skill level. Not mechanical skill level. You interpreting it as mechanical skill is all on you. They never said that.
Strategy, decision making etc. is just as much a personal skill as mechanical skills. If you wanna argue that it is separate, you can do that. But when talking about "general skill", all is included.
So yeah, your misinterpretation.
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On September 08 2020 01:16 Barneyk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 22:46 Brainojack wrote:
I've always liked this format. It moves things along quickly and allows for some fresh blood to make it deeper. Even if there is an upset the underdog will eventually run into better players later in the tournament.
The point off this tournament isn't to determine the best player in the world, it's to determine the ASL10 champ. I think this is a bit misleading, what is the best player in the world? Preparing builds, using mental games, predicting what your opponent is going to do etc. is all part of the game. And the person that succeeds in doing that and becoming the ASL10 champ, is the best player in the world, under the circumstances presented. It is easy to change who is the best in the world by changing the maps, format or a bunch of other stuff. But with the format we have, the one who wins, is the best in the world in that format and with that map pool etc. Just like in any sport, wether team sports like soccer, individual 1v1 sports like boxing or tennis, or poker or whatever. There are always many factors in deciding who is the best in the world and there will always be debate about who actually is the best in the world. Except, in BW everyone knows Flash is the best in the world overall.  But not in every aspect...
It kinda sounds like you read what I wrote as "the point of this tournament is to determine the best player in the world" and are trying to convince me otherwise. I think we agree, but just in case:
It's not misleading at all, the ASL can't spend the time required to determine the best player in the world.
What you are basically calling the 'Conditional Best player in the World (under the circumstances/format presented)' is so much easier to call 'ASL10 Champion' because those circumstances/format are ASL10.
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yes, perhaps my hatred of the bo1 format stemmed from bisu losing. and maybe you are right-- maybe if bisu played a bo3 he would have lost. that is fine. Still does not take away from the fact that a bo3 is better than a bo1 in terms of figuring out who is the better player. But perhaps that is not what a starleague is looking for. Perhaps a starleague is looking to catch lightning in a bottle. that is fine. I still think, regardless of who wins anything, that a bo3 format is better than a bo1 format. and it also gives us more games. who wants to watch a 2 hour asl instead of a 4 hour asl? not me. I want to see what all the players planned and if it gets fucked up in one game because of a blind counter I don't think that is the best judge of who should advance. Maybe the bo1 format is better because it can showcase how one player can befuddle another and leave it at that. But I like the scenario where one player can be blindsided in game 1, and then adapt and play a better game 2 and 3. that's all. I'm not trying to throw shade on the gosu gods that are good at taking 1 off
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On September 10 2020 06:18 Alejandrisha wrote:
yes, perhaps my hatred of the bo1 format stemmed from bisu losing. and maybe you are right-- maybe if bisu played a bo3 he would have lost. that is fine. Still does not take away from the fact that a bo3 is better than a bo1 in terms of figuring out who is the better player. But perhaps that is not what a starleague is looking for. Perhaps a starleague is looking to catch lightning in a bottle. that is fine. I still think, regardless of who wins anything, that a bo3 format is better than a bo1 format. and it also gives us more games. who wants to watch a 2 hour asl instead of a 4 hour asl? not me. I want to see what all the players planned and if it gets fucked up in one game because of a blind counter I don't think that is the best judge of who should advance. Maybe the bo1 format is better because it can showcase how one player can befuddle another and leave it at that. But I like the scenario where one player can be blindsided in game 1, and then adapt and play a better game 2 and 3. that's all. I'm not trying to throw shade on the gosu gods that are good at taking 1 off
+1
2x bo1 / 3x bo3 format FTW
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On September 10 2020 06:18 Alejandrisha wrote:
yes, perhaps my hatred of the bo1 format stemmed from bisu losing. and maybe you are right-- maybe if bisu played a bo3 he would have lost. that is fine. Still does not take away from the fact that a bo3 is better than a bo1 in terms of figuring out who is the better player. But perhaps that is not what a starleague is looking for. Perhaps a starleague is looking to catch lightning in a bottle. that is fine. I still think, regardless of who wins anything, that a bo3 format is better than a bo1 format. and it also gives us more games. who wants to watch a 2 hour asl instead of a 4 hour asl? not me. I want to see what all the players planned and if it gets fucked up in one game because of a blind counter I don't think that is the best judge of who should advance. Maybe the bo1 format is better because it can showcase how one player can befuddle another and leave it at that. But I like the scenario where one player can be blindsided in game 1, and then adapt and play a better game 2 and 3. that's all. I'm not trying to throw shade on the gosu gods that are good at taking 1 off
However Flash has won these tournaments consistently throughout the years whilst Bisu have not and the format has mostly been Bo1.
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On September 12 2020 02:48 KrsNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2020 06:18 Alejandrisha wrote:
yes, perhaps my hatred of the bo1 format stemmed from bisu losing. and maybe you are right-- maybe if bisu played a bo3 he would have lost. that is fine. Still does not take away from the fact that a bo3 is better than a bo1 in terms of figuring out who is the better player. But perhaps that is not what a starleague is looking for. Perhaps a starleague is looking to catch lightning in a bottle. that is fine. I still think, regardless of who wins anything, that a bo3 format is better than a bo1 format. and it also gives us more games. who wants to watch a 2 hour asl instead of a 4 hour asl? not me. I want to see what all the players planned and if it gets fucked up in one game because of a blind counter I don't think that is the best judge of who should advance. Maybe the bo1 format is better because it can showcase how one player can befuddle another and leave it at that. But I like the scenario where one player can be blindsided in game 1, and then adapt and play a better game 2 and 3. that's all. I'm not trying to throw shade on the gosu gods that are good at taking 1 off However Flash has won these tournaments consistently throughout the years whilst Bisu have not and the format has mostly been Bo1.
Throughout what years? Post-Kespa? I also remember the shit-show after Flash got kicked out in the group stage by Classic and Ssak.
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On September 12 2020 03:44 Miragee wrote:
Throughout what years? Post-Kespa? I also remember the shit-show after Flash got kicked out in the group stage by Classic and Ssak.
When was this?
Was this when he went 14cc?
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On September 13 2020 00:01 Barneyk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2020 03:44 Miragee wrote:
Throughout what years? Post-Kespa? I also remember the shit-show after Flash got kicked out in the group stage by Classic and Ssak. When was this? Was this when he went 14cc?
I think so but he lost to both in macro games iirc... 2010/2011.
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Bisu showed up with a Nexus first into proxy robo, a cannon rush, and carriers on a non-carrier map. Bo1 isn't the issue.
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game 5 would have liked to see the shuttle full of zealots engaging with the dragoons against the rolling tanks at the 3rd at 9:36
also shine v jyj needed a few overlords up the right side to slow down the income when jyj set up the containments
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EPT
