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On September 07 2020 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote:jyj/leta obviously.............. O_O has asl ro24 always been bo1 in all 5 matches? this seems ridiculous Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 03:50 BisuDagger wrote:On September 07 2020 01:57 Miragee wrote:On September 06 2020 21:16 Wonk wrote:
seems like Bisu is not back to his old strength. See you all on saturday for group B! Tbh, I was pretty sure he was going to lose once he decided to go carriers. Bisu's PvT late game is not great already but historically his carrier play has been extra bad. Like, you could bet on him losing as soon as he dropped the fleet beacon in an official match. Has been a while since I predicted a group this wrong. Leta and Jyj advancing... Would love to see how many people bet on that result. This is a huge career day for Jyj. For anyone following his long history, you have to be really proud of him advancing. i have been following jyj and i still wanted him to lose xD but yes-- it is always good to have new blood in the meaningful rounds of gsl ^^
yeah i agree that 5x bo1 in ro24 is kinda ridiculous in 2020
still.. big congratz to the winners of course!
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 07 2020 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:
Question:
Am I the only one who thinks that both Tasteless and Artosis have improved tremendously in the last year or so. It went from I never learn anything to, "Wtf - that is how that is done". Tasteless has been on like a 3 month straight comedy tour de force as well. This applies to both ASL and GSL. It feels noticeable but nobody has commented on it.
It was definitely noticed. Both casters are playing more. And with Tasteless overcoming his wrist injury, you can tell he really has put in quite a few more hours of play time himself. I think they are both doing great. I love that Scarlett has also played a role in developing their knowledge too.
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It is weird to see people complaining about the Ro 24 format, it is the same format we've had since what, 2006?
I like it, I think it makes things exciting. It shakes things up a bit.
Bisu and Shine both lost because they played poorly, they made poor decisions that cost them. Leta and JYJ played better. This series really isn't an argument to why Bo1 x2 is a bad format imo.
And yeah, Tastosis is better than ever right now imo, when BW came back and they started casting they were also really focused on explaining the game for people that followed them more than BW and went over the basics repetitively. It wasn't just their lack of knowledge of current meta that made their commentary so lackluster in an analytical sense, they were simply focused on getting new watchers up to speed.
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On September 07 2020 21:20 Barneyk wrote:
It is weird to see people complaining about the Ro 24 format, it is the same format we've had since what, 2006?
I like it, I think it makes things exciting. It shakes things up a bit.
Bisu and Shine both lost because they played poorly, they made poor decisions that cost them. Leta and JYJ played better. This series really isn't an argument to why Bo1 x2 is a bad format imo.
And yeah, Tastosis is better than ever right now imo, when BW came back and they started casting they were also really focused on explaining the game for people that followed them more than BW and went over the basics repetitively. It wasn't just their lack of knowledge of current meta that made their commentary so lackluster in an analytical sense, they were simply focused on getting new watchers up to speed.
It is the Bisu has lost effect. Nothing more to it than that. Had Bisue advance, everything would be fine in the world. I get it, but bisu didnt seem on par today and deserved what he got.
On September 06 2020 17:40 KobraKay wrote:
Damn wont be able to catch these live but later tonight will sure see the vods to catch the bisu tears xD
Sad to be right about this. Leta did some cheese but still he seemed in control where it had to be in G1 and he showed his game sense (or a little luck by that vulture seeing that probe moving out at a random time).
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I've always liked this format. It moves things along quickly and allows for some fresh blood to make it deeper. Even if there is an upset the underdog will eventually run into better players later in the tournament.
The point off this tournament isn't to determine the best player in the world, it's to determine the ASL10 champ.
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On September 07 2020 19:24 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 14:18 AttackZerg wrote:
Question:
Am I the only one who thinks that both Tasteless and Artosis have improved tremendously in the last year or so. It went from I never learn anything to, "Wtf - that is how that is done". Tasteless has been on like a 3 month straight comedy tour de force as well. This applies to both ASL and GSL. It feels noticeable but nobody has commented on it. It was definitely noticed. Both casters are playing more. And with Tasteless overcoming his wrist injury, you can tell he really has put in quite a few more hours of play time himself. I think they are both doing great. I love that Scarlett has also played a role in developing their knowledge too.
Oh did I miss her talking with them?
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Can anyone explain why, in Bisu vs Shine, Bisu canceled his first cannon right after starting it? Or why he fired on his own pylon with cannons?
I’m guessing they were play errors caused by nerves, but that type of error is very rare for Bisu...
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
After that the casting was great today. It’s very enjoyable to hear them go deeper strategically.
On September 07 2020 22:46 Brainojack wrote:
The point off this tournament isn't to determine the best player in the world, it's to determine the ASL10 champ.
Agreed, this is a subtle distinction that’s often missed. Predictable outcomes are not good.
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 08 2020 00:07 Djabanete wrote:
Can anyone explain why, in Bisu vs Shine, Bisu canceled his first cannon right after starting it? Or why he fired on his own pylon with cannons?
I’m guessing they were play errors caused by nerves, but that type of error is very rare for Bisu...
What you thought was a first cannon was actually a pylon. The drone got through so he needed to build something to push the drone back out and he didn't have 150 minerals for the cannon yet. Then he attacked his pylon because the sunken colony trick lets you 1) attack building in range 2) the attacking animation grants additional range to the sunken so if you retarget to something like the cannons which were out of range, they could be hit by sunken.
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On September 08 2020 00:15 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 00:07 Djabanete wrote:
Can anyone explain why, in Bisu vs Shine, Bisu canceled his first cannon right after starting it? Or why he fired on his own pylon with cannons?
I’m guessing they were play errors caused by nerves, but that type of error is very rare for Bisu... What you thought was a first cannon was actually a pylon. The drone got through so he needed to build something to push the drone back out and he didn't have 150 minerals for the cannon yet. Then he attacked his pylon because the sunken colony trick lets you 1) attack building in range 2) the attacking animation grants additional range to the sunken so if you retarget to something like the cannons which were out of range, they could be hit by sunken.
Thanks!
I just rewatched that part of the VOD. It looks like Shine didn't use the sunken to attack cannons using this trick even when the pylon was still alive. So Bisu "helped" Shine kill the pylon as a preventive measure?
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 08 2020 00:49 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 00:15 BisuDagger wrote:On September 08 2020 00:07 Djabanete wrote:
Can anyone explain why, in Bisu vs Shine, Bisu canceled his first cannon right after starting it? Or why he fired on his own pylon with cannons?
I’m guessing they were play errors caused by nerves, but that type of error is very rare for Bisu... What you thought was a first cannon was actually a pylon. The drone got through so he needed to build something to push the drone back out and he didn't have 150 minerals for the cannon yet. Then he attacked his pylon because the sunken colony trick lets you 1) attack building in range 2) the attacking animation grants additional range to the sunken so if you retarget to something like the cannons which were out of range, they could be hit by sunken. Thanks! I just rewatched that part of the VOD. It looks like Shine didn't use the sunken to attack cannons using this trick even when the pylon was still alive. So Bisu "helped" Shine kill the pylon as a preventive measure?
Exactly. Every *trick* in BW requires extra APM and attention. Shine was focused on his next move and therefore did not attempt to glitch his sunken. However it took very little APM from Bisu to focus down the pylon and prevent the sunken from ever having a chance to overreach it's power.
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On September 07 2020 22:46 Brainojack wrote:
I've always liked this format. It moves things along quickly and allows for some fresh blood to make it deeper. Even if there is an upset the underdog will eventually run into better players later in the tournament.
The point off this tournament isn't to determine the best player in the world, it's to determine the ASL10 champ.
I think this is a bit misleading, what is the best player in the world?
Preparing builds, using mental games, predicting what your opponent is going to do etc. is all part of the game. And the person that succeeds in doing that and becoming the ASL10 champ, is the best player in the world, under the circumstances presented.
It is easy to change who is the best in the world by changing the maps, format or a bunch of other stuff. But with the format we have, the one who wins, is the best in the world in that format and with that map pool etc.
Just like in any sport, wether team sports like soccer, individual 1v1 sports like boxing or tennis, or poker or whatever. There are always many factors in deciding who is the best in the world and there will always be debate about who actually is the best in the world.
Except, in BW everyone knows Flash is the best in the world overall. 
But not in every aspect...
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I approve of these results. Leta and JYJ both played solid games. Bisu showed his signature over-aggression in PvT and it cost him the Ro16. Shine vs Bisu was super fun to watch though.
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On September 08 2020 00:59 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2020 00:49 Djabanete wrote:On September 08 2020 00:15 BisuDagger wrote:On September 08 2020 00:07 Djabanete wrote:
Can anyone explain why, in Bisu vs Shine, Bisu canceled his first cannon right after starting it? Or why he fired on his own pylon with cannons?
I’m guessing they were play errors caused by nerves, but that type of error is very rare for Bisu... What you thought was a first cannon was actually a pylon. The drone got through so he needed to build something to push the drone back out and he didn't have 150 minerals for the cannon yet. Then he attacked his pylon because the sunken colony trick lets you 1) attack building in range 2) the attacking animation grants additional range to the sunken so if you retarget to something like the cannons which were out of range, they could be hit by sunken. Thanks! I just rewatched that part of the VOD. It looks like Shine didn't use the sunken to attack cannons using this trick even when the pylon was still alive. So Bisu "helped" Shine kill the pylon as a preventive measure? Exactly. Every *trick* in BW requires extra APM and attention. Shine was focused on his next move and therefore did not attempt to glitch his sunken. However it took very little APM from Bisu to focus down the pylon and prevent the sunken from ever having a chance to overreach it's power.
Cheers.
I thought it was weird for Bisu to make two glaring mechanical errors, and my best explanation before you answered my questions was that he was sweating bullets because it was an elimination game against Shine ;-)
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On September 07 2020 21:29 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 21:20 Barneyk wrote:
It is weird to see people complaining about the Ro 24 format, it is the same format we've had since what, 2006?
I like it, I think it makes things exciting. It shakes things up a bit.
Bisu and Shine both lost because they played poorly, they made poor decisions that cost them. Leta and JYJ played better. This series really isn't an argument to why Bo1 x2 is a bad format imo.
And yeah, Tastosis is better than ever right now imo, when BW came back and they started casting they were also really focused on explaining the game for people that followed them more than BW and went over the basics repetitively. It wasn't just their lack of knowledge of current meta that made their commentary so lackluster in an analytical sense, they were simply focused on getting new watchers up to speed. It is the Bisu has lost effect. Nothing more to it than that. Had Bisue advance, everything would be fine in the world. I get it, but bisu didnt seem on par today and deserved what he got. Show nested quote +On September 06 2020 17:40 KobraKay wrote:
Damn wont be able to catch these live but later tonight will sure see the vods to catch the bisu tears xD Sad to be right about this. Leta did some cheese but still he seemed in control where it had to be in G1 and he showed his game sense (or a little luck by that vulture seeing that probe moving out at a random time).
nah, I always kind of disliked this type of format
i was and am an advocate of 3x bo1 and 2x bo3 format. Getting into a prestige tournament just to fly from it after two quick bo1 games is kinda silly.
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On September 08 2020 04:48 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 21:29 KobraKay wrote:On September 07 2020 21:20 Barneyk wrote:
It is weird to see people complaining about the Ro 24 format, it is the same format we've had since what, 2006?
I like it, I think it makes things exciting. It shakes things up a bit.
Bisu and Shine both lost because they played poorly, they made poor decisions that cost them. Leta and JYJ played better. This series really isn't an argument to why Bo1 x2 is a bad format imo.
And yeah, Tastosis is better than ever right now imo, when BW came back and they started casting they were also really focused on explaining the game for people that followed them more than BW and went over the basics repetitively. It wasn't just their lack of knowledge of current meta that made their commentary so lackluster in an analytical sense, they were simply focused on getting new watchers up to speed. It is the Bisu has lost effect. Nothing more to it than that. Had Bisue advance, everything would be fine in the world. I get it, but bisu didnt seem on par today and deserved what he got. On September 06 2020 17:40 KobraKay wrote:
Damn wont be able to catch these live but later tonight will sure see the vods to catch the bisu tears xD Sad to be right about this. Leta did some cheese but still he seemed in control where it had to be in G1 and he showed his game sense (or a little luck by that vulture seeing that probe moving out at a random time). nah, I always kind of disliked this type of format i was and am an advocate of 3x bo1 and 2x bo3 format. Getting into a prestige tournament just to fly from it after two quick bo1 games is kinda silly.
There are always some people who complain each tournament, especially when a favorite is eliminated. And it makes sense, I guess. But I love the early part of ASL where each game is insanely important and underdogs can show up with bizarre builds and do well.
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On September 07 2020 21:29 KobraKay wrote:
It is the Bisu has lost effect. Nothing more to it than that. Had Bisue advance, everything would be fine in the world. I get it, but bisu didnt seem on par today and deserved what he got.
Agreed 200%
From what we have seen, there is really no evidence that Bisu would have done better in a Bo3. He had his chance twice in PvT, yet lost both without ever being in a remotely good position. All of that, against players that may not even get past Ro16.
Sad times to be a Bisu fan..
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 08 2020 05:34 Grouhh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2020 21:29 KobraKay wrote:
It is the Bisu has lost effect. Nothing more to it than that. Had Bisue advance, everything would be fine in the world. I get it, but bisu didnt seem on par today and deserved what he got.
Agreed 200% From what we have seen, there is really no evidence that Bisu would have done better in a Bo3. He had his chance twice in PvT, yet lost both without ever being in a remotely good position. All of that, against players that may not even get past Ro16. Sad times to be a Bisu fan..
I think the most valid complaint is why is he considered tier one in this tournament. He is a solid tier two player, or as shine says, he is the worst of tier 1. Everyone is so ready for the old Bisu they are putting him on to high a pedestal.
Edit: not that that complaint would help Bisu. But he certainly makes the group easier for the other players then other tier ones.
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How long does he exactly need to fully recover from his army time ? Its ridiculous. Hero and ssak are almost back in full strenght already (imo). To me, this is clear that bisu is playing at his peak and never really played better than this... Truth is bw is at the highest skill level ever and this is why ive been enjoying it so much ; unfortunately, multitasking, micro and macro wont be sufficient to compensate his poor decision making anymore. And im being polite, there is no other guy close to this level who come close to Bisu in terms of poor decision making. Nope, not even Mini.
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Never liked Bo1 groups myself, and it has nothing to do with Bisu getting knocked out here. (In fact, it's no sure thing that he would have beaten either Shine or JyJ in Bo3s.) Sure, it's how it has worked for ages, but that doesn't make me like it any better. I thought it was suboptimal for the MSL and I think it's suboptimal for the ASL. (In general, an appeal to tradition isn't the highest recommendation. Remember the OSL round-robin groups? The OSL was the most prestigious tournament, and round-robin is a garbage format. You got situations where Player is already 100% eliminated and Player B is already 100% sure to advance, and yet they still have to pointlessly play each other. Worse, Player A who is 100% eliminated, and thus has no incentive but pride, may face Player B who will advance only if they beat Player A.)
My problem with Bo1 in group stages is the same as my problem with Bo1 for the grand finals: You want players to have a chance to show what they've prepared, and you want players who are capable of fighting from behind to have a chance to do it. Rookies get more time in the spotlight and stars can show their magic if they've still got it.
In other sports you don't see abridged matchups in the early rounds of a tournament. In Wimbledon, you play out all the sets (three sets for women's tennis, five for men's) whether it's the finals or the first round. In World Cup soccer/football, you play out real matches at every stage --- you don't start by playing matches on a 10-minute clock or matches where the first point wins, and then gradually build up to the real thing for the finals.
To me, given the typical pace and duration of BW games, double elimination Bo3s or single elimination Bo5s just feels right for determining who advances and who doesn't. For expediency, I like the KSL group format (double elimination, starting with Bo1 but you can't get eliminated without losing a Bo3), as well as the GSL format (back when it was a BW tournament --- single elimination bracket from the very beginning, starting with Bo3s and then doing Bo5s only in the deep rounds).
For that matter, I'm not a fan of seeding players into the Ro16, but that's another conversation :-)
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EPT
