EPTRain looked like he was the next skill tier higher than Sharp’s. I was very impressed. In the post game he reminded me of a confident Jaedong.
4 Protosses in the top 4 is meme worthy.
[KSL3] Ro8 Day 2 - Soulkey vs Snow/Rain vs Sharp - Page 6
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Rain looked like he was the next skill tier higher than Sharp’s. I was very impressed. In the post game he reminded me of a confident Jaedong. 4 Protosses in the top 4 is meme worthy. | ||
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
With effort gone I think soulkey is definitely the best zerg in the world right now, but his zvp is just not nearly as refined as his zvt. Man it sucks that we're only getting PvP for the rest of the tournament :\ | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:54 ggsimida wrote: It didnt trigger me so badly, its just inapt and wrong, and it helps reinforce bad mentalities for other players. Not you, but other people will see that and go "zealot rush = noobie = unfair"ok maybe the word "cheese" triggered you so badly? maybe i shouldnt use the word semicheese so lightly with such negative connotation to you..early game pressure fine? | ||
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AnalDiablo
3 Posts
It's a derivation of standard ZvP, but if someone wants to identify some of the key timings I would appreciate it. I think he goes single evo, carapace, and then follows up with another evo later. | ||
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ggsimida
1156 Posts
On May 25 2019 01:19 Dazed. wrote: It didnt trigger me so badly, its just inapt and wrong, and it helps reinforce bad mentalities for other players. Not you, but other people will see that and go "zealot rush = noobie = unfair" It's not wrong to class it as semicheese btw, it's easy to force micro errors on the Terran side with that opening and hence you can gain an advantage or even outright win. All without tanking your economy like typical 2gate cheese would hence the semi part. It's a common opener even among macro toss players. I put it in the same category as forward 8rax tvz and 973 Hydra zvp. If someone just think "cheese noob" then let's see how well their 100% standard openings only do for them in a boX tourney. Even great players cheese from time to time, you have to mix it up to make yourself unpredictable to face. | ||
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Jaeyun
United States202 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:07 AnalDiablo wrote: Anyone have the scoop on SoulKey's mixup build against Snow that won him a game? It was a three-base Hive push with Lurkers, Adrenal Glands, OV Speed, and +1Range/+2 Carapace. It's a derivation of standard ZvP, but if someone wants to identify some of the key timings I would appreciate it. I think he goes single evo, carapace, and then follows up with another evo later. Typically, when you go 3 base lurker into hive, you rush carapace upgrades then as it's about to finish, you move into triple evo chamber to align the 2-1-1. The reasoning is that once you have your carapace up, the zealots no longer get their weapon advantage over the lings. In this case, it seems SK only went dual evo chamber for 2-1, which might be because he was down economically throughout the game throwing away a lot of units that weren't getting much value. With hive, you want to move into defiler and creep out to take your 4th base but in this case, Soulkey opted to move in for the kill move for a couple reasons. First, he was successful in sniping at least 2 (maybe 3?) HTs with his lings and noticed Snow also invested in an archon, which otherwise would have put him to a total of 5-6 fully loaded HT, which is what you're looking for when P moves out for a 2-0 timing. With his lings, he scouted he only had 1 more HT remaining which would leave him vulnerable to an engagement. Second, with hive tech, Snow is constantly deciding which base to defend and the bridge typically tends to be an unfavorable spot to attack in but he was able to catch Snow off guard with his army moving in a line and getting sliced by lurkers, causing SK's attack to succeed. I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Overall, amazing play from Snow - heartbreaking for me to see as a Zerg but he deserved it. What impressed me the most was Snow's corsair control in a high-stakes game. When corsairs are alive and active, they're such a pain to deal with all game, not to mention a counter to late game crackling doom drops. G4 was probably also really tilting for SK because Snow cut probes very early to move in for a constant 2 base all in. SK almost held and had a decent shot had he not gotten killed by the DT, but very impressive for Snow to keep that pressure on. I had Rain as a slight favorite against Sharp, as Sharp's TvT and TvP are both monster, but Rain easily flexing how strong of a player he is in offline settings and in a series. The one thing I'll leave here is that Rain made his entire career being one of the most solid, conservative, and mechanically brilliant Protosses in both SC2 and SCR - when a player like that mixes in intelligent cheeses, it makes him that much more potent in a five game series. Similar to how SK loves playing super aggressive all-in builds but is mechanically top tier at all stages of the games. This is way different from players cheesing because they need to. I know Bisu is and will always be known as the GOAT of Protoss, but sometimes I genuinely feel the ghost of Bisu is keeping people from appreciating Rain's brilliance. Not trying to compare the two, just a strange observation. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66364 Posts
all toss ro4 and grand finals.. hope there will be interesting builds and strategies edit: to be fair, that corsair control throughout the entire game by snow was absolutely insane rain looking super solid too | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19371 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:28 Jaeyun wrote: Typically, when you go 3 base lurker into hive, you rush carapace upgrades then as it's about to finish, you move into triple evo chamber to align the 2-1-1. The reasoning is that once you have your carapace up, the zealots no longer get their weapon advantage over the lings. In this case, it seems SK only went dual evo chamber for 2-1, which might be because he was down economically throughout the game throwing away a lot of units that weren't getting much value. With hive, you want to move into defiler and creep out to take your 4th base but in this case, Soulkey opted to move in for the kill move for a couple reasons. First, he was successful in sniping at least 2 (maybe 3?) HTs with his lings and noticed Snow also invested in an archon, which otherwise would have put him to a total of 5-6 fully loaded HT, which is what you're looking for when P moves out for a 2-0 timing. With his lings, he scouted he only had 1 more HT remaining which would leave him vulnerable to an engagement. Second, with hive tech, Snow is constantly deciding which base to defend and the bridge typically tends to be an unfavorable spot to attack in but he was able to catch Snow off guard with his army moving in a line and getting sliced by lurkers, causing SK's attack to succeed. I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt this SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Overall, amazing play from Snow - heartbreaking for me to see as a Zerg but he deserved it. What impressed me the most was Snow's corsair control in a high-stakes game. When corsairs are alive and active, they're such a pain to deal with all game, not to mention a counter to late game crackling doom drops. G4 was probably also really tilting for SK because Snow cut probes very early to move in for a constant 2 base all in. SK almost held and had a decent shot had he not gotten killed by the DT, but very impressive for Snow to keep that pressure on. I had Rain as a slight favorite against Sharp, as Sharp's TvT and TvP are both monster, but Rain easily flexing how strong of a player he is in offline settings and in a series. The one thing I'll leave here is that Rain made his entire career being one of the most solid, conservative, and mechanically brilliant Protosses in both SC2 and SCR - when a player like that mixes in intelligent cheeses, it makes him that much more potent in a five game series. Similar to how SK loves playing super aggressive all-in builds but is mechanically top tier at all stages of the games. This is way different from players cheesing because they need to. I know Bisu is and will always be known as the GOAT of Protoss, but sometimes I genuinely feel the ghost of Bisu is keeping people from appreciating Rain's brilliance. Not trying to compare the two, just a strange observation. Rain feels a lot more like Stork then Bisu when putting him with the greats. Stork was reliable vT and when you watched his matches you weren't constantly worried about him defeating himself with questionable decisions. Stork always felt in command even when he lost. The previous sentence is what people here chime about Rain too. Rain in PvP and PvT seems to always be dictating the flow of the game. He's outright scary and always seems favored against everyone he plays. Even with his historically weak PvZ you almost get amnesia over that matchup before he plays a Zerg because he's just that good. But then he loses to a Zerg and you go "oh yeah, he does that". He, like every Protoss, has an unexplainable weakness that prevents him from being the best there is. I'm not sure we've ever seen a 100% completely well-rounded Protoss player to this day, except in very small and brief doses. | ||
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Jaeyun
United States202 Posts
And if I HAD to compare, to your point, this era, at least before this KSL for a span of at least 6 months has been marked by a ton of extremely strong Zergs with Protoss especially struggling to figure them out, although obviously with this KSL the results are starting to tip in favor of the other way. Bisu certainly would have better results than Rain in the PvZ department but he's still going to be struggling against the likes of a prime Effort, Hero, Soulkey, or Larva on most of the recent ASL/KSL maps, whether he wins or not. I know he's had victories against them before he left to the army, but you have to admit this past year was a rough time for Protoss up until now. I would not rate Bisu's PvT better than Rain's. Their PvP's would be a solid coin flip. (Edit) For the record, despite all of this, I still believe Bisu is the GOAT with his skill and also the impact he had on the game. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2937 Posts
I think Rain, as basically the Chad of PvP, will make Snow and whoever he faces in the finals look a lot worse than they are, but it’s been fantastic to see all these Protoss advance through sick preparation. It took a while but it looks like Rain finally figured out to put a cannon in every mineral line before Sharps vultures get there. The disappointment from Zerg and Terran players is understandable, as we Protoss have had our hopes crushed disproportionately more often. But hey, it’s our turn now. | ||
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AnalDiablo
3 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:28 Jaeyun wrote: I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt this SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Thanks for the analysis! I get stormed to death anyway, but I definitely need something new—I've been running into a wall in B league as ZvP, along the same lines as we're seeing in this match. Protoss just seems to have all their bases covered. I'll have to check out your stream. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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Miragee
8695 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:47 konadora wrote: man what happened to soulkey... rip all toss ro4 and grand finals.. hope there will be interesting builds and strategies edit: to be fair, that corsair control throughout the entire game by snow was absolutely insane rain looking super solid too Soulkey's ZvP has been strange for quite some time. He is very passive, which is weird considering his TvZ is very aggressive. Oh well, 4 Protoss in the Ro4 don't excite me at all. A PvP once in a while is fine but it's my least favourite match up for sure. | ||
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Jaeyun
United States202 Posts
Thanks for the analysis! I get stormed to death anyway, but I definitely need something new—I've been running into a wall in B league as ZvP, along the same lines as we're seeing in this match. Protoss just seems to have all their bases covered. I'll have to check out your stream. Np! At lower levels, I would recommend just trying to execute 5 hatch hydra and being aggressive around the 7:30-8:30 mark. After that, I'd just back up, drone, and block off the big Protoss push at around 12-13 minutes. Move into 4-5 bases with hive tech then play from there. You probably don't want to be out on the map fighting before then, in my opinion. Good luck! Did really nobody notice in the game Snow lost against Soulkey, that Snow had 1-1 upgrades? That was the single most important mistake Snow did. Don't know why he decided to upgrade armor instead of +2 attack (maybe lack of money), but zealots need one more upgrade than zerg carapace to fight effectively against lings. And here Soulkey didn't have just lings. Those were cracklings! Snow was going for 2-1 upgrades with a double forge to counter SK's style. A good number of P's go 8 gate double forge in PvZ to go for a 2-1 timing rather than 2-0. This makes lings do 3 damage to goons, which is a big deal when Zerg reinforces with lings to pop goons once the zealots are gone. You may have looked at Snow's upgrades right before +2 weapons hit so he had 1-1 but he had 2-1 at the fight on the bridge. | ||
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Miragee
8695 Posts
On May 25 2019 05:12 Jaeyun wrote: Np! At lower levels, I would recommend just trying to execute 5 hatch hydra and being aggressive around the 7:30-8:30 mark. After that, I'd just back up, drone, and block off the big Protoss push at around 12-13 minutes. Move into 4-5 bases with hive tech then play from there. You probably don't want to be out on the map fighting before then, in my opinion. Good luck! Snow was going for 2-1 upgrades with a double forge to counter SK's style. A good number of P's go 8 gate double forge in PvZ to go for a 2-1 timing rather than 2-0. This makes lings do 3 damage to goons, which is a big deal when Zerg reinforces with lings to pop goons once the zealots are gone. You may have looked at Snow's upgrades right before +2 weapons hit so he had 1-1 but he had 2-1 at the fight on the bridge. Didn't Soulkey kill the spinning forge though? Was that 3-1 in the making then? | ||
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Jaeyun
United States202 Posts
Didn't Soulkey kill the spinning forge though? Was that 3-1 in the making then? Yes, either +3 attack or +2 armor. There's two forges so we wouldn't be sure which was which on the front wall. At 13:33 in that particular game the observer clicks on an archon with 2-1 upgrades, which is consistent with the double forge style Snow was going for. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
i can only stomach so much PvP's (or any mirror for that matter). | ||
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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