[KSL3] Ro8 Day 2 - Soulkey vs Snow/Rain vs Sharp
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Snow versus Soulkey The historical racial advantage goes to Zerg and the map pool is fine for zerg. The better player overall is Soulkey. But, this week he had a a major punch to the psyche and Snow beat him in ksm recently. Normally Soulkey would be a huge favorite but I believe psyche matters and Soulkey played some ... hard games this week. That said, I think Soulkey will win but Snow .... he has a shot. There are many strong pvz builds at the moment, Snow has near or at a decade of experience, he has and is a warrior and that will give him his best shot at beating the current best zerg in the world. Sharp V Rain The historical racial advantage goes to Rain, the map pool is fairly balanced with maybe a slight protoss lean. Rain is the better player and a better match player. Full stop. Rain is a champion who keeps champion-ing. But, as others have pointed out, he didn't look solid versus Last, just very and wildly aggressive (compared to the calm brutality Stork has shown PvT) and smart. Sharp has fantastic vulture control and way better judgement then any terrans not named Last or Flash. He could theoretically beat Rain if they played 15 minute no rush, or completely standard expand openings. The problem is that right now, protoss have a dangerous array of both strong and successful early middle game strategies or unit combos. The success of 3 speed shuttles attacks at gut punching terran just before or just after third expand is terrifying. Have we seen it lose this season? If Rain plays risky, he runs the risk of a brutal take down. Should be a good match that Rain wins. | ||
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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BirdBird
34 Posts
yesterday was a disaster quite honestly | ||
M3t4PhYzX
Poland3786 Posts
GG! | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
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Highgamer
1346 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
EDIT: Oh, wow, i actually predicted something! | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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BirdBird
34 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
On May 24 2019 19:59 BirdBird wrote: I honestly don't understand how that all happened Soulkey moved out. Corsairs sniped 5 or so overlords, so he got supply blocked. Snow moved into natural that had nothing in it because Soulkey was busy building overlords and and had his army far away. At least that's how i see it happened. | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
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BirdBird
34 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Soulkey missplayed a near ideal position. He needs to play so well to win from here. | ||
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On May 24 2019 19:50 lolfail9001 wrote: I did not see the first game, but this second game has me feeling Soulkey stands no chance. I have a good eye to recognize when literally nothing goes right. EDIT: Oh, wow, i actually predicted something! Congratulations! It feels good to be right. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On May 24 2019 20:04 Szinkler wrote: I'm curious how much effect does Soulkey's match against Flash has on him. I totally, totally think Flash is a soul eater and a keymaker. Dude was brutal. | ||
lolfail9001
Russian Federation40169 Posts
Also, it's definitely the kind of day where nothing goes right for Soulkey. EDIT: Phew, was almost scared there for a second, good to see my jinx powers still function well. | ||
IRseriousCat-
74 Posts
I saw him get up to 1700 minerals, did anyone see higher? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20717 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
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Torvaltz
United States188 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Snow is playing great. | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
I've always felt like cracklings were something people just got incidentally, which seems a shame. I guess the fact that he picked off so many storms as the game went on helped a ton with that big bust. | ||
Ayjayzee
9 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On May 24 2019 20:29 Ayjayzee wrote: I know sk sniped some Templars but it still seemed like snow was low on them. Delaying the mining-gasing of the third may have been two templar worth of gas... probably one. Soulkey could have easily lost there. | ||
razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
Can't place hatch like that on bottom right. See it eats larva | ||
Torvaltz
United States188 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Poll: Recommend game 4? Yes (9) No (jk yes) (0) in bath? (0) 9 total votes Your vote: Recommend game 4? | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Poll: Recommend whole match? Yes (7) if or if not drunk? (3) No (0) 10 total votes Your vote: Recommend whole match? | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Click poll - type shit - copypaste. Meowowow the age of protoss is terrifying! | ||
razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
On May 24 2019 20:54 AttackZerg wrote: Meowowow the age of protoss is terrifying! It's like all the Protoss suddenly woke up and remembered "oh yeah, we're OP race, let's just roll this tournament LOLOLKK" | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Sharp should be able to take out Rain, he already did it twice! Snow vs Sharp should be much closer than Rain PvPing his way to the title. | ||
IRseriousCat-
74 Posts
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oEkY
Germany641 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:11 IRseriousCat- wrote: Sharp is underdog. Sharp is going to win, 3-0 Calling it now. i would rather say that sharp is slightly the favorite here | ||
BirdBird
34 Posts
HA! what a game | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Aeternum
Latvia35 Posts
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oEkY
Germany641 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:25 Turbovolver wrote: I'm telling you, this guy is so overrated. unless he's up against Stork :o | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
You wound me. But you're right. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:32 Dazed. wrote: still no idea why everyone salivates over soulkey. Hes good but...eh with effort's departure to civil service zerg is now competitively dead imo | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
Sending the probes was neat. | ||
razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:32 Dazed. wrote: still no idea why everyone salivates over soulkey. Hes good but...eh His TvZ is really good. | ||
TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:37 Turbovolver wrote: Hahahahaha this guy really doesn't trust his standard play. Sending the probes was neat. I know right? The community-titled "Strongest Protoss" needs tricks vs Sharp | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:39 ggsimida wrote: maybe rain is cheesy but feels like overconfidence strikes sharp again was he overconfident? The only way I could have seen him ending that was sending most of his SCVs to ensure the proxy gate couldn't get up. He'd still be behind regardless, even if he killed the gateway. He scouted it perfectly, and he still lost. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:40 Wonk wrote: I'll never respect Rain like i respected Bisu. I hope Sharp punishes him for his dishonesty. was he overconfident? The only way I could have seen him ending that was sending most of his SCVs to ensure the proxy gate couldn't get up. He scouted it perfectly, and he still lost. he can pull a bunch ofscv to help kill the zeal/s when the going gets tough, even flash does that if i recall old games of his against proxy gate pressure. like i feel sharp still has this ladder mentality where he could solely rely on rine micro to stall the zeal until fact, except hes not playing against an amateur this time round. i feel this sort of notion in many of other sharps game as well (where he got cocky and just end up killing himself instead, like example 1 game vs modesty where he pushed too early and give up marines cheaply to mutas, when staying to the turrets would be better to build up army and force errors out of modesty before guardian push instead) | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20717 Posts
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Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:39 razorsuKe wrote: I know right? The community-titled "Strongest Protoss" needs tricks vs Sharp In my opinion Rain is doing these cheeses because terrans got so greedy that he is punishing them by doing this. He is amazing in a long macro game, he is not afraid of that, but if terran goes 14cc then he is behind... I hate cheeses but I understand why he is doing it (which is 100% not because he doesn't trust his standard play). | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:47 ggsimida wrote: he can pull a bunch ofscv to help kill the zeal/s when the going gets tough, even flash does that if i recall old games of his against proxy gate pressure. like i feel sharp still has this ladder mentality where he could solely rely on rine micro to stall the zeal until fact, except hes not playing against an amateur this time round. i feel this sort of notion in many of other sharps game as well (where he got cocky and just end up killing himself instead, like example 1 game vs modesty where he pushed too early and give up marines cheaply to mutas, when staying to the turrets would be better to build up army and force errors out of modesty before guardian push instead) And while he's doing that, he's losing SCVs and missing mining while Rain is mining to his hearts content back at his base and going fine. Whatever he does, he's crippling his economy to stay alive. He's honestly better off praying for good marine macro in the hope he can barely hold and get into a normal game. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:55 Wonk wrote: And while he's doing that, he's losing SCVs and missing mining while Rain is mining to his hearts content back at his base and going fine. Whatever he does, he's crippling his economy to stay alive. He's honestly better off praying for good marine macro in the hope he can barely hold and get into a normal game. holding out with maybe minor loss (toss is wasting mineral cranking out zeal, its not free) vs the outcome u see where he just straight up died? flash took the former and he won. | ||
Szinkler
Hungary394 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:55 Turbovolver wrote: 14cc is no more common now than it's ever been. It was just an example, there are other kinds of greed. But nevermind. Main thing is that I'm sure he is confident in his standard play. You will see. | ||
Cele
Germany4012 Posts
I guess it's kinda meant to be funny, but i think it's not and you're way overboard. Btw im a P player and no Flash fan in particular.. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20717 Posts
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Cele
Germany4012 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:04 Wombat_NI wrote: I enjoyed it personally Sure, everbody has a different sense of humor. But wouldn't you agree that many Fans of Lee Young Ho might find it offensive? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20717 Posts
Those kind of folks are super disrespectful to the level of other players so I don’t really care if they’re offended | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:02 Cele wrote: Okay the average Flash fan is drooling, having a nervous breakdown and spit bubbles on the side of his mouth, Tastosis? I guess it's kinda meant to be funny, but i think it's not and you're way overboard. Btw im a P player and no Flash fan in particular.. Nobody said that was the average Flash fan, though. "People who believe Flash can do no wrong are the worst" makes no comment about what is average for a Flash fan. | ||
Cele
Germany4012 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:09 Wombat_NI wrote: Well no I felt he was saying it about the rabid ones who bring up Flash whenever there’s any BW game on and say things like he’d win easily if only he was playing etc etc. Those kind of folks are super disrespectful to the level of other players so I don’t really care if they’re offended Yeah? I might have missed that context. Okay then. | ||
Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Well, those were a nice pair of recalls. it didn't seem to do much though. | ||
Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's a strange thing for any caster to say. Tastosis prequently mocks and insults fans and the common bw player, it really strange to hear. It's such a turnoff. Well, those were a nice pair of recalls. it didn't seem to do much though. Agreed with that. It did more damage to Rain's units but Rain's got a whole lot of bases and army production buildings. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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Terra1
Philippines312 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada1994 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On May 24 2019 21:57 ggsimida wrote: holding out with maybe minor loss (toss is wasting mineral cranking out zeal, its not free) vs the outcome u see where he just straight up died? flash took the former and he won. They're not free, but they're not actively hurting your economy like having to defend with SCVs just to stay alive is. Saying "flash could come back from that position" does not mean it's balanced or fair. Yuck. 3 PvPs in a row. I know people say "if you like starcraft you should enjoy every matchup" but PvP is the only one that puts me to sleep on a fundamental level. ZvZ feels similar but is at least exciting. | ||
repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
KSL Tasteless ar-CHAWN we were dumb KSL cheer signs art KSL cheer art KSL Tasteless flash never lost a game KSL cheer signs KSL Rain interview | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:28 Wonk wrote: They're not free, but they're not actively hurting your economy like having to defend with SCVs just to stay alive is. Saying "flash could come back from that position" does not mean it's balanced or fair. its not a direct loss but its still an economic loss in the form of an opportunity cost, where you could get nexus up faster with classic goon expand instead. proxy gate pressure is bit of semicheese if you dont do damage you are behind than if you took the safe opening. i only used flash because i sorta recalled one of his games where he held it easily that way, i mean where else else could i take it from. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:35 ggsimida wrote: its not a direct loss but its still an economic loss in the form of an opportunity cost, where you could get nexus up faster with classic goon expand instead. proxy gate pressure is bit of semicheese if you dont do damage you are behind than if you took the safe opening. i only used flash because i sorta recalled one of his games where he held it easily that way, i mean where else else could i take it from. I'd hardly call it a semicheese in the sense of a bunker rush because of how little resources you have to devote to getting it done. 1 probe, and 3 if you want to make sure it goes off. It just doesn't really hurt the protoss' economy in the same way sending 5-6 SCVs across the map to build a bunker and body block for the marines so they can actually fight zealots does. These units are never going to be equal and i accept that, but god damn it hurts sometimes. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:35 ggsimida wrote: 'if you dont do damage you are behind' its not a direct loss but its still an economic loss in the form of an opportunity cost, where you could get nexus up faster with classic goon expand instead. proxy gate pressure is bit of semicheese if you dont do damage you are behind than if you took the safe opening. i only used flash because i sorta recalled one of his games where he held it easily that way, i mean where else else could i take it from. dude literally ALL pressure builds of any kind meet that criteria. Hell, all economic builds meet this criteria 'if your economic opener doesnt put you ahead economically, you are behind' its like when the goal of the build isnt met, bad things happen. That doesnt make the build cheese or semi cheese. We cant keep moving the goal post of cheese as a community to the point where pressuring with a fucking zealot is cheese. | ||
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:42 Dazed. wrote: 'if you dont do damage you are behind' dude literally ALL pressure builds of any kind meet that criteria. Hell, all economic builds meet this criteria 'if your economic opener doesnt put you ahead economically, you are behind' its like when the goal of the build isnt met, bad things happen. That doesnt make the build cheese or semi cheese. We cant keep moving the goal post of cheese as a community to the point where pressuring with a fucking zealot is cheese. ok maybe the word "cheese" triggered you so badly? maybe i shouldnt use the word semicheese so lightly with such negative connotation to you..early game pressure fine? | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:41 Wonk wrote: I'd hardly call it a semicheese in the sense of a bunker rush because of how little resources you have to devote to getting it done. 1 probe, and 3 if you want to make sure it goes off. It just doesn't really hurt the protoss' economy in the same way sending 5-6 SCVs across the map to build a bunker and body block for the marines so they can actually fight zealots does. These units are never going to be equal and i accept that, but god damn it hurts sometimes. eh its not about sending 5 scvs across the map, they are only pulled when the zeals are in the base and the going gets tough like if you fumble your rine micro. | ||
Geo.Rion
7375 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
On May 24 2019 23:00 ggsimida wrote: eh its not about sending 5 scvs across the map, they are only pulled when the zeals are in the base and the going gets tough like if you fumble your rine micro. I was describing an equivalent cheese, i.e bunker rush. But in every situation in PvT early game the onus is on the terran to perfectly micro the marines in order to trade equally with the protoss. This isn't really problem, and I'm not complaining about this in particular The units are all different and have their weaknesses and tradeoffs in the grand scheme of the game. We could get into units microing units and who is more favoured with the same amount of micro, but the fact of the matter is protoss will do and get away with more of these kinds of openings compared to terran and sometimes even zerg on these maps because their commitment versus success and potential to continue to a normal game is much higher, as we have seen in recent pro games. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Rain looked like he was the next skill tier higher than Sharp’s. I was very impressed. In the post game he reminded me of a confident Jaedong. 4 Protosses in the top 4 is meme worthy. | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
With effort gone I think soulkey is definitely the best zerg in the world right now, but his zvp is just not nearly as refined as his zvt. Man it sucks that we're only getting PvP for the rest of the tournament :\ | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 24 2019 22:54 ggsimida wrote: It didnt trigger me so badly, its just inapt and wrong, and it helps reinforce bad mentalities for other players. Not you, but other people will see that and go "zealot rush = noobie = unfair"ok maybe the word "cheese" triggered you so badly? maybe i shouldnt use the word semicheese so lightly with such negative connotation to you..early game pressure fine? | ||
AnalDiablo
3 Posts
It's a derivation of standard ZvP, but if someone wants to identify some of the key timings I would appreciate it. I think he goes single evo, carapace, and then follows up with another evo later. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 25 2019 01:19 Dazed. wrote: It didnt trigger me so badly, its just inapt and wrong, and it helps reinforce bad mentalities for other players. Not you, but other people will see that and go "zealot rush = noobie = unfair" It's not wrong to class it as semicheese btw, it's easy to force micro errors on the Terran side with that opening and hence you can gain an advantage or even outright win. All without tanking your economy like typical 2gate cheese would hence the semi part. It's a common opener even among macro toss players. I put it in the same category as forward 8rax tvz and 973 Hydra zvp. If someone just think "cheese noob" then let's see how well their 100% standard openings only do for them in a boX tourney. Even great players cheese from time to time, you have to mix it up to make yourself unpredictable to face. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:07 AnalDiablo wrote: Anyone have the scoop on SoulKey's mixup build against Snow that won him a game? It was a three-base Hive push with Lurkers, Adrenal Glands, OV Speed, and +1Range/+2 Carapace. It's a derivation of standard ZvP, but if someone wants to identify some of the key timings I would appreciate it. I think he goes single evo, carapace, and then follows up with another evo later. Typically, when you go 3 base lurker into hive, you rush carapace upgrades then as it's about to finish, you move into triple evo chamber to align the 2-1-1. The reasoning is that once you have your carapace up, the zealots no longer get their weapon advantage over the lings. In this case, it seems SK only went dual evo chamber for 2-1, which might be because he was down economically throughout the game throwing away a lot of units that weren't getting much value. With hive, you want to move into defiler and creep out to take your 4th base but in this case, Soulkey opted to move in for the kill move for a couple reasons. First, he was successful in sniping at least 2 (maybe 3?) HTs with his lings and noticed Snow also invested in an archon, which otherwise would have put him to a total of 5-6 fully loaded HT, which is what you're looking for when P moves out for a 2-0 timing. With his lings, he scouted he only had 1 more HT remaining which would leave him vulnerable to an engagement. Second, with hive tech, Snow is constantly deciding which base to defend and the bridge typically tends to be an unfavorable spot to attack in but he was able to catch Snow off guard with his army moving in a line and getting sliced by lurkers, causing SK's attack to succeed. I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Overall, amazing play from Snow - heartbreaking for me to see as a Zerg but he deserved it. What impressed me the most was Snow's corsair control in a high-stakes game. When corsairs are alive and active, they're such a pain to deal with all game, not to mention a counter to late game crackling doom drops. G4 was probably also really tilting for SK because Snow cut probes very early to move in for a constant 2 base all in. SK almost held and had a decent shot had he not gotten killed by the DT, but very impressive for Snow to keep that pressure on. I had Rain as a slight favorite against Sharp, as Sharp's TvT and TvP are both monster, but Rain easily flexing how strong of a player he is in offline settings and in a series. The one thing I'll leave here is that Rain made his entire career being one of the most solid, conservative, and mechanically brilliant Protosses in both SC2 and SCR - when a player like that mixes in intelligent cheeses, it makes him that much more potent in a five game series. Similar to how SK loves playing super aggressive all-in builds but is mechanically top tier at all stages of the games. This is way different from players cheesing because they need to. I know Bisu is and will always be known as the GOAT of Protoss, but sometimes I genuinely feel the ghost of Bisu is keeping people from appreciating Rain's brilliance. Not trying to compare the two, just a strange observation. | ||
konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
all toss ro4 and grand finals.. hope there will be interesting builds and strategies edit: to be fair, that corsair control throughout the entire game by snow was absolutely insane rain looking super solid too | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19032 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:28 Jaeyun wrote: Typically, when you go 3 base lurker into hive, you rush carapace upgrades then as it's about to finish, you move into triple evo chamber to align the 2-1-1. The reasoning is that once you have your carapace up, the zealots no longer get their weapon advantage over the lings. In this case, it seems SK only went dual evo chamber for 2-1, which might be because he was down economically throughout the game throwing away a lot of units that weren't getting much value. With hive, you want to move into defiler and creep out to take your 4th base but in this case, Soulkey opted to move in for the kill move for a couple reasons. First, he was successful in sniping at least 2 (maybe 3?) HTs with his lings and noticed Snow also invested in an archon, which otherwise would have put him to a total of 5-6 fully loaded HT, which is what you're looking for when P moves out for a 2-0 timing. With his lings, he scouted he only had 1 more HT remaining which would leave him vulnerable to an engagement. Second, with hive tech, Snow is constantly deciding which base to defend and the bridge typically tends to be an unfavorable spot to attack in but he was able to catch Snow off guard with his army moving in a line and getting sliced by lurkers, causing SK's attack to succeed. I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt this SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Overall, amazing play from Snow - heartbreaking for me to see as a Zerg but he deserved it. What impressed me the most was Snow's corsair control in a high-stakes game. When corsairs are alive and active, they're such a pain to deal with all game, not to mention a counter to late game crackling doom drops. G4 was probably also really tilting for SK because Snow cut probes very early to move in for a constant 2 base all in. SK almost held and had a decent shot had he not gotten killed by the DT, but very impressive for Snow to keep that pressure on. I had Rain as a slight favorite against Sharp, as Sharp's TvT and TvP are both monster, but Rain easily flexing how strong of a player he is in offline settings and in a series. The one thing I'll leave here is that Rain made his entire career being one of the most solid, conservative, and mechanically brilliant Protosses in both SC2 and SCR - when a player like that mixes in intelligent cheeses, it makes him that much more potent in a five game series. Similar to how SK loves playing super aggressive all-in builds but is mechanically top tier at all stages of the games. This is way different from players cheesing because they need to. I know Bisu is and will always be known as the GOAT of Protoss, but sometimes I genuinely feel the ghost of Bisu is keeping people from appreciating Rain's brilliance. Not trying to compare the two, just a strange observation. Rain feels a lot more like Stork then Bisu when putting him with the greats. Stork was reliable vT and when you watched his matches you weren't constantly worried about him defeating himself with questionable decisions. Stork always felt in command even when he lost. The previous sentence is what people here chime about Rain too. Rain in PvP and PvT seems to always be dictating the flow of the game. He's outright scary and always seems favored against everyone he plays. Even with his historically weak PvZ you almost get amnesia over that matchup before he plays a Zerg because he's just that good. But then he loses to a Zerg and you go "oh yeah, he does that". He, like every Protoss, has an unexplainable weakness that prevents him from being the best there is. I'm not sure we've ever seen a 100% completely well-rounded Protoss player to this day, except in very small and brief doses. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
And if I HAD to compare, to your point, this era, at least before this KSL for a span of at least 6 months has been marked by a ton of extremely strong Zergs with Protoss especially struggling to figure them out, although obviously with this KSL the results are starting to tip in favor of the other way. Bisu certainly would have better results than Rain in the PvZ department but he's still going to be struggling against the likes of a prime Effort, Hero, Soulkey, or Larva on most of the recent ASL/KSL maps, whether he wins or not. I know he's had victories against them before he left to the army, but you have to admit this past year was a rough time for Protoss up until now. I would not rate Bisu's PvT better than Rain's. Their PvP's would be a solid coin flip. (Edit) For the record, despite all of this, I still believe Bisu is the GOAT with his skill and also the impact he had on the game. | ||
oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
I think Rain, as basically the Chad of PvP, will make Snow and whoever he faces in the finals look a lot worse than they are, but it’s been fantastic to see all these Protoss advance through sick preparation. It took a while but it looks like Rain finally figured out to put a cannon in every mineral line before Sharps vultures get there. The disappointment from Zerg and Terran players is understandable, as we Protoss have had our hopes crushed disproportionately more often. But hey, it’s our turn now. | ||
AnalDiablo
3 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:28 Jaeyun wrote: I would warn against trying to use this build to go in for a kill move in other circumstances/scenarios as you'll find that you'd probably get stormed to death running into your opponent when P is at his strongest point (~12 minutes). The pros often can dictate the pace of the game with their superior micro, then punish with thin timings, but I doubt this SK intended for this build to be a 3 base all in kill move. Thanks for the analysis! I get stormed to death anyway, but I definitely need something new—I've been running into a wall in B league as ZvP, along the same lines as we're seeing in this match. Protoss just seems to have all their bases covered. I'll have to check out your stream. | ||
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
On May 25 2019 02:47 konadora wrote: man what happened to soulkey... rip all toss ro4 and grand finals.. hope there will be interesting builds and strategies edit: to be fair, that corsair control throughout the entire game by snow was absolutely insane rain looking super solid too Soulkey's ZvP has been strange for quite some time. He is very passive, which is weird considering his TvZ is very aggressive. Oh well, 4 Protoss in the Ro4 don't excite me at all. A PvP once in a while is fine but it's my least favourite match up for sure. | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
Thanks for the analysis! I get stormed to death anyway, but I definitely need something new—I've been running into a wall in B league as ZvP, along the same lines as we're seeing in this match. Protoss just seems to have all their bases covered. I'll have to check out your stream. Np! At lower levels, I would recommend just trying to execute 5 hatch hydra and being aggressive around the 7:30-8:30 mark. After that, I'd just back up, drone, and block off the big Protoss push at around 12-13 minutes. Move into 4-5 bases with hive tech then play from there. You probably don't want to be out on the map fighting before then, in my opinion. Good luck! Did really nobody notice in the game Snow lost against Soulkey, that Snow had 1-1 upgrades? That was the single most important mistake Snow did. Don't know why he decided to upgrade armor instead of +2 attack (maybe lack of money), but zealots need one more upgrade than zerg carapace to fight effectively against lings. And here Soulkey didn't have just lings. Those were cracklings! Snow was going for 2-1 upgrades with a double forge to counter SK's style. A good number of P's go 8 gate double forge in PvZ to go for a 2-1 timing rather than 2-0. This makes lings do 3 damage to goons, which is a big deal when Zerg reinforces with lings to pop goons once the zealots are gone. You may have looked at Snow's upgrades right before +2 weapons hit so he had 1-1 but he had 2-1 at the fight on the bridge. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On May 25 2019 05:12 Jaeyun wrote: Np! At lower levels, I would recommend just trying to execute 5 hatch hydra and being aggressive around the 7:30-8:30 mark. After that, I'd just back up, drone, and block off the big Protoss push at around 12-13 minutes. Move into 4-5 bases with hive tech then play from there. You probably don't want to be out on the map fighting before then, in my opinion. Good luck! Snow was going for 2-1 upgrades with a double forge to counter SK's style. A good number of P's go 8 gate double forge in PvZ to go for a 2-1 timing rather than 2-0. This makes lings do 3 damage to goons, which is a big deal when Zerg reinforces with lings to pop goons once the zealots are gone. You may have looked at Snow's upgrades right before +2 weapons hit so he had 1-1 but he had 2-1 at the fight on the bridge. Didn't Soulkey kill the spinning forge though? Was that 3-1 in the making then? | ||
Jaeyun
United States199 Posts
Didn't Soulkey kill the spinning forge though? Was that 3-1 in the making then? Yes, either +3 attack or +2 armor. There's two forges so we wouldn't be sure which was which on the front wall. At 13:33 in that particular game the observer clicks on an archon with 2-1 upgrades, which is consistent with the double forge style Snow was going for. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5051 Posts
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
i can only stomach so much PvP's (or any mirror for that matter). | ||
Ideas
United States7956 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Ideas
United States7956 Posts
On May 25 2019 12:08 Alpha-NP- wrote: We should all root for Stork. It would be a crazy story if he won the whole thing. Like Bisu returning. It'd actually be more fitting if he got 2nd though, no? | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3680 Posts
Although I will say, I much prefer PvP over 7min ZvZ and 60min TvT. | ||
MooPower92
8 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 26 2019 05:27 MooPower92 wrote: What a great time to be a Protoss player and fan! We need more Protoss honor and titles! During the Kespa days it was always Terran, then zerg and then Protoss having the least titles. And it hasn't been much different with Amateur tournaments. Protoss definitely are in need of more titles in Brood War! | ||
sM.Zik
Canada2542 Posts
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On May 25 2019 05:12 Jaeyun wrote: Np! At lower levels, I would recommend just trying to execute 5 hatch hydra and being aggressive around the 7:30-8:30 mark. After that, I'd just back up, drone, and block off the big Protoss push at around 12-13 minutes. Move into 4-5 bases with hive tech then play from there. You probably don't want to be out on the map fighting before then, in my opinion. Good luck! Snow was going for 2-1 upgrades with a double forge to counter SK's style. A good number of P's go 8 gate double forge in PvZ to go for a 2-1 timing rather than 2-0. This makes lings do 3 damage to goons, which is a big deal when Zerg reinforces with lings to pop goons once the zealots are gone. You may have looked at Snow's upgrades right before +2 weapons hit so he had 1-1 but he had 2-1 at the fight on the bridge. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Why aren't any terrans or zergs here, because they got smashed. All of the players remaining has earned this. Snow would be the least exciting winner, Rain would be logical, Mini might be the best toss in the world right now or Stork, a throwback to before I had grey hairs or eye wrinkles, who happens to have played the most dominant wins in the last 3 rounds. Protoss players are normally a dime a dozen - all four of these guys have commanded their forces in strong fashion. Mini's fast 2-3 shuttle early midgame strategy is the bisu build of the new age, calling it now. Also, someone is going to do a maelstorm+storm drop in a pvz soon. I can feel it. | ||
Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3437 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
On May 26 2019 15:37 AttackZerg wrote: Even thou I am not a big fan of finals without zerg, I am satisfied with this league and excited for the finals. Why aren't any terrans or zergs here, because they got smashed. All of the players remaining has earned this. Snow would be the least exciting winner, Rain would be logical, Mini might be the best toss in the world right now or Stork, a throwback to before I had grey hairs or eye wrinkles, who happens to have played the most dominant wins in the last 3 rounds. Protoss players are normally a dime a dozen - all four of these guys have commanded their forces in strong fashion. Mini's fast 2-3 shuttle early midgame strategy is the bisu build of the new age, calling it now. Also, someone is going to do a maelstorm+storm drop in a pvz soon. I can feel it. Hey slow down, my boy Action got Mini on the ropes, got caught out of position midgame with his hydra army and Mini capitalized but he hardly got smashed. | ||
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
Cant really complain about anything about poor showing by soulkey and best, but even then best would have won it would have been 4 protoss anyways | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 26 2019 15:37 AttackZerg wrote: Even thou I am not a big fan of finals without zerg, I am satisfied with this league and excited for the finals. Why aren't any terrans or zergs here, because they got smashed. All of the players remaining has earned this. Snow would be the least exciting winner, Rain would be logical, Mini might be the best toss in the world right now or Stork, a throwback to before I had grey hairs or eye wrinkles, who happens to have played the most dominant wins in the last 3 rounds. Protoss players are normally a dime a dozen - all four of these guys have commanded their forces in strong fashion. Mini's fast 2-3 shuttle early midgame strategy is the bisu build of the new age, calling it now. Also, someone is going to do a maelstorm+storm drop in a pvz soon. I can feel it. Snow would be the most exciting winner imho. He has style(Dark Archons!), he has never won before and PvP is his weakest matchup, taking down Rain and Mini/Stork would be a great feat. Protoss players dominated every matchup, even the dreaded PvZ, so that they completely deserved to reach ro4. | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
On May 26 2019 21:39 Dante08 wrote: I've said from the last ASL/KSL the age of Protoss is here. They have improved so much in PvZ and are giving top Zergs such a hard time. And I would largely favour Rain, Snow and Mini against all Terrans except Flash. Will be interesting to see what happens in the next ASL. Pretty sure it goes like Snow, then stork, then Best, then Rain, then Mini if were talking about pvt | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Moopower
126 Posts
Rain has been in good form since season 4 and has proven to be championship material taking sc2 and sc1 titles. Sure sc2 is different than bw but winning and seemingly mastering both games gives him a psychological edge. He has proven to not have final jitters and can perform under pressure. Stork has really surprised me by dismantling Last with a calm and steady pace throughout the whole match. The way he destroys Last with Carriers all 3 games shows they weren't a fluke. He even humiliates Best by taking an expo while Best plays a safe build, playing the mind games and STILL outmacroes him in many occasions. I really hope to root for Stork if he continues this trend. He has been known as the King of Silvers and 2nd place finishes in the Kespa era, never truly establishing himself as the dominant toss, but he was mostly always top tier until KSL started again. Now Stork looks reborn a new Protoss! Mini was a protoss I've found hard to root for. He was always emotional and seemed to crack under pressure. He definitely came a long way in dealing with that emotional turmoil. While most pros calmly accept defeat or even have a slight disappointed look, Mini slumps over with his head down that makes most people think he is weak mentally. That may explain some, but sometimes emotional players have that much more of a drive to succeed. I think in a previous ASL or KSL he managed to beat SK after a near reverse sweep. I thought he was going to get 2-3ed and toss the match but he managed to get a grip of himself. Now he seems to have mastered a lot of zealot pressure in PvZ early game and has cleaned up his plays a lot. He is like the underdog story similar to Stork that can hopefully rise to the occasion and become one of the greats! Snow, most impressed me in ASL season 5 against Flash. The only protoss at the time that I truly believed gave Flash a run for his money. All the Protoss seemed to trash Terrans all except Flash. You might as well call it FvP instead of TvP. The same way Bisu dominates PvZ, Flash is always leagues ahead of the rest of the Terrans in this match up. Snow convincingly beat Flash, and I can't say the same for any Protoss recently. So hopefully Flash will participate next tournaments and a Protoss can prove themselves against a god. | ||
KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
On May 27 2019 00:06 TornadoSteve wrote: Pretty sure it goes like Snow, then stork, then Best, then Rain, then Mini if were talking about pvt Stork is having a great tournament but I wouldn't put his PvT ahead of Rain. Will need to see how he performs in a few more tournaments. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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TornadoSteve
775 Posts
Still 3pvp series, but we might see some nice micro battles... fingers crossed. edit: I wont pretend that I know when its good to use it so i cant answer your question I would go ahead and use it on Sparkle though. Only to drop my first reaver on a desert island nearby when my shuttle is target down by a corsair. | ||
soldier8
Russian Federation60 Posts
4 protosses in ksl semifinals whaaat? | ||
Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
On May 29 2019 19:27 soldier8 wrote: 4 england teams in semifinals european finals CL and LE 4 protosses in ksl semifinals | ||
mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
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