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On October 29 2018 14:22 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan, but this was a fantastic outcome.
This is probably better for literally everyone involved. Effort, other BW players, Afreeca, the BW scene, even Flash himself.
I feel the same way.
In order for Flash's games to be exciting, people have to believe it's possible for him to lose.
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United States1655 Posts
Huge props to Effort, great games and one of the most impressive runs in a tournament from recent memory, going through the previous ASL champion. KSL champion, and basically the BW champion.
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The defence for the drop+wraith from Effort was insane. I have not seen any zerg ever survive that, especially against someone like flash, they always seem to drop the ball. Effort really seems like the fucking real deal. Wow, such a beast.
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On October 29 2018 14:28 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 14:22 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan, but this was a fantastic outcome.
This is probably better for literally everyone involved. Effort, other BW players, Afreeca, the BW scene, even Flash himself.
I feel the same way. In order for Flash's games to be exciting, people have to believe it's possible for him to lose.
It's true, even though Snow did it in season 5, it didn't feel as credible considering the map pool. With Effort, it feels like he did it the hard way, and it was a long time coming. Both Last and Effort have finally been rewarded for the skill they've been showing for so long, and that's just great for the scene.
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On October 29 2018 14:28 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 14:22 darktreb wrote:
I'm a huge Flash fan, but this was a fantastic outcome.
This is probably better for literally everyone involved. Effort, other BW players, Afreeca, the BW scene, even Flash himself.
I feel the same way. In order for Flash's games to be exciting, people have to believe it's possible for him to lose.
There are many ways to talk about Flash's greatness. But I always thought the best way was that since 2010, almost every time he lost it was a significant event. That's true greatness that a player's losses make for a better story than their wins.
Even after all these years, so many of Flash's losses stand out:
- Power Outage loss to Jaedong
- Reverse Sweep OSL loss to Effort
- suddenly out of both OSL and MSL in group stage
- Jangbi ro8 with that crazy Pathfinder game right before surgery
- Proleague Finals epic loss to Fantasy and epic ace match loss to Bisu
- Fantasy 3-0 TvT (in spite of the score, two fantastic games followed by a brilliant hidden second Starport in game 3)
- Last 3-0 ASL1
- Soulkey "proleague" ace match
- Snow on insane Protoss maps
- and now this finals
It's too bad 2009 was so long ago. If more people could relive that year and how hard it was for Flash, they would appreciate everything that he's accomplished much more. Now he's Thanos with all the infinity stones and it's only fun when he loses.
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United States889 Posts
On October 29 2018 17:58 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 14:28 Dromar wrote:On October 29 2018 14:22 darktreb wrote:
It's too bad 2009 was so long ago. If more people could relive that year and how hard it was for Flash, they would appreciate everything that he's accomplished much more. Now he's Thanos with all the infinity stones and it's only fun when he loses.
For my money, the defining run of the last era of Broodwar was when Jaedong and Flash faced off against each other in GOM, MSL and OSL all in the same like month. Jaedong won the first, Flash the next two, and Jaedong was the best player at the time. Flash was just known as a cheesy/fluky player, and even now he's making it into almost every finals. We still haven't moved past that run and I don't think we will.
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On October 29 2018 15:22 Sigrun wrote:
Huge props to Effort, great games and one of the most impressive runs in a tournament from recent memory, going through the previous ASL champion. KSL champion, and basically the BW champion.
Yeah, he basically beat the final boss of Starcraft on the highest difficulty setting. He beat the guy who's already beaten multiplayer and is just peering down at mortals from his atop his throne.
In terms of the calibre of players Effort had to face in his bracket, this felt like ForGG's Arena MSL run, and in terms of a long-time-coming-victory from a promising player who kept floundering, this felt like Jangbi's first OSL win against Fantasy.
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Some people play nervous and worse when they are worried about an upcoming event and I think flash I has been this case dreading his military service he’ll have to do have his life back in sk. He should go in now before hell be too old when he gets Gets out.
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Ok Im sober and clear now. And I just finished watching game 5. Here's some takeaways.
- This finals is the best possible result for BW and the fans and the community. (Well maybe second only to Jaedong wins vs Flash for obvious narrative and rivalry and Jaedong farewell tour.) Flash losing means he's not unbeatable which is good for the competitive ecosystem of the sports.
- Effort winning is epic: 1) he is one of the old guards, 2) he had an epic win vs. Flash before, 3) he won by bringing out inspired and creative strategies out of a 20-year old game!
- Effort is extremely underrated. This is similar to point #2 but I really have to reiterate how criminally underrated he is. He is known as a solid zerg but his mechanical skills and knowledge of the secrets of the game is second to none. He won against Flash by keeping Flash guessing - sneaking speed before lair, faking mass speedlings while actually rushing lurkers and pushing in after Flash moves out, and that game 5 hydra-based game to ultra with muta harrass is divine!!! I have only seen two people do that - Hydra (as a reaction to wraith play) and Zero (because he is a crazy zerg.) Other than game 2, Flash never had anything clear, and was never able to actually settle down. And when Flash was up with his terran shananigans, Effort was two steps ahead - vulture drop smash, using his overlords as bait to eliminate the cloaked wraiths, sniping that fast first tank with the suicide hydra squad, He was practically perfect. His only losses were greed in game two and failing to scout and underestimating Flash macro after three harasses to his third.
- This is where I compare Effort to another zerg and one of Flash other rivals - Jaedong. Forgive me Jaedong fans, but he is great, but he is one-dimensional great. He is like Nadal in tennis, he wins by overwhelming his opponents with brute force. Once his playstyle got figured out, and his mechanical skills declined, he started losing. He was not the cunning and scheming zerg that Effort is. Effort's zerg is mental, reactionary, with layers upon layers of schemes and plots. He leads his opponent to one thing while hitting them with something they don't expect.
- 1-1-1 is dead. Effort killed it.
- BW4LYF!!!
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To me it seems as if the solution to 1-1-1 have been same approach as Zergs solution to protoss FE.
For protoss it has become really hard as the Zergs can do all these semi-all ins (2 hatch hydra bust, ling runby, 3 hatch hydrabust, 3 hatch muta 2hatch muta) but where the zergs are making sure they are following up with a more standard game. Today, if zergs play completely standard they seem to really struggle against toss FE. The semi allins keep the toss honest as is normally stated.
The same pattern starts to show for the 1-1-1 where terrans have to be ready for more and more and if their scout is somewhat early denied by lings (just like ZvP) they have to either cut coners blindly or overcommit on defence. The later academy means terran is very much is the same boat as toss. I think this is what makes the huge difference, terrans have to play blindly for much longer, and this has to be exploited by zerg.
Look at all the recent effort games against flash and last in the semi. He has thrown so many small variations that are not allins, but stuff that can do A LOT of damage. Like the small little two lings he hid againts Last when his vulture moved out.
Normally the 1-1-1 vultures have kept the terrans completely safe (just like toss one or two cannons when the build first startet). But now that is no longer the case and it seems really hard for terran to expand without huge risk of many various things happening.
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Effort did not let Flash play an ordinary game, that's why he took the series. GGs
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Can't we somehow get day[9] to make an analysis of this series? I would gladly pay to see that.
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Effort was so ballsy in this series, building the den so close to the SCV on Sylphid and cutting the sunken in Autobahn G5. What did he have to gain from building the den in the main while the SCV was still alive? Some mindgames to make Flash think that a 2hatch lurker is less likely?
If he had taken too much damage from the first vulture in G5 there would be people calling him out for "greedy play".
I remember that Jaedong tried aggressive builds against Last but he got demolished so badly. What did Effort/Flash do differently?
On October 29 2018 22:20 Elroi wrote:
Can't we somehow get day[9] to make an analysis of this series? I would gladly pay to see that.
I'd be happy to watch/read an analysis by Day9 or anyone skilled.
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I can give u analysis, flash didn’t try because he has inferiority complex about his adult profession being video game player. He is embarrassed on stage and to wear asl uniform so he let effort win. Gg.
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On October 29 2018 22:56 JieXian wrote:Effort was so ballsy in this series, building the den so close to the SCV on Sylphid and cutting the sunken in Autobahn G5. What did he have to gain from building the den in the main while the SCV was still alive? Some mindgames to make Flash think that a 2hatch lurker is less likely?If he had taken too much damage from the first vulture in G5 there would be people calling him out for "greedy play". I remember that Jaedong tried aggressive builds against Last but he got demolished so badly. What did Effort/Flash do differently? Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 22:20 Elroi wrote:
Can't we somehow get day[9] to make an analysis of this series? I would gladly pay to see that. I'd be happy to watch/read an analysis by Day9 or anyone skilled.
When I saw it, I thought it was to make flash scan the natural rather than the main, thinking he had scouted that with the scv. I believe that is what happened too.
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Just watched the games.
effOrt played well, but I have to say, it seems like Flash's losses were entirely due to mis-microing his vultures and wraithes, and also that accidental double science facility in game 5. Somebody should buy him a new ruler.
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On October 29 2018 21:52 radadaundandan wrote:
Effort did not let Flash play an ordinary game, that's why he took the series. GGs
Everybody and their mother knew that this was the way to do it. No one thought that we would actually see it done successfully.
Respect, Effort.
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On October 29 2018 22:20 Elroi wrote:
Can't we somehow get day[9] to make an analysis of this series? I would gladly pay to see that.
I'm not day9, but I'd do an analysis for a price.
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On October 30 2018 00:59 LightSpectra wrote:
Just watched the games.
effOrt played well, but I have to say, it seems like Flash's losses were entirely due to mis-microing his vultures and wraithes, and also that accidental double science facility in game 5. Somebody should buy him a new ruler.
My thoughts as well. Effort played very well, but Flash did not seem in top form...and also made some poor choices strategically. Happy to see Effort win though.
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On October 30 2018 01:09 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2018 21:52 radadaundandan wrote:
Effort did not let Flash play an ordinary game, that's why he took the series. GGs Everybody and their mother knew that this was the way to do it. No one thought that we would actually see it done successfully. Respect, Effort.
More than not playing standard, I think effort in this series changed the metagame to be fair.
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EPT
