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On January 20 2017 07:50 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 05:35 Peeano wrote:On January 19 2017 16:08 n.DieJokes wrote:Does anyone have the map statistics for Demian? I'm curious, looks like a hard map to hold a third 'Joined November 2008', doesn't know how to use TLPD... Shame on you. To be fair, Demian only seems to show up in the BW Amateur database, not the Professional one. And the link from its Liquipedia map page to TLPD is busted, aka 'Unknown Map': http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/679_Demian
I don't think it was used during professional BW
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where's 1st~Tsunami at? we need to see some tactic low econ zerg start something again haha
seriously i find zerg macroing or purely "surprise" builds to be the only way to win very sad. research for missle/claw damage should be just one thing really, so annoying it takes forever and usually ppl have to choose one over the other in shorter games.
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On January 19 2017 13:29 [[Starlight]] wrote:
My bad, I was referring to the live casts, which do indeed allow you to select quality level.
You're obviously looking at the VODs, which have had some problems of late. I think it was mentioned that the VODs for the Flash vs Jaedong series were going to be re-done and re-uploaded soon, if that's the specific issue you're encountering.
I don't think there was a problem with the video, just with my slow connection. I will try to watch again, but right now I'm really missing a way to set the resolution/quality.
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Bisutopia19200 Posts
Wondering if Terran is unbeatable in standard games? Zero vs Mong, Last, and howoo tonight on the weekly dagger.
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On January 20 2017 06:59 lolmlg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2017 23:07 Dante08 wrote:On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?" I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes.
I think people deny imbalances nowadays more in order to make BW not appear 'weak' in comparison to some other RTS often cited in this very community. However such low level of argumentation is silly.
BW balance is not perfect. However it is remarkably not that imbalanced, given the complexity of the game. If you look at all the other RTS games, it is by a huge margin the most balanced game ever. However this doesn't mean it is perfectly balanced.
Also ASL2 map pool is imbalanced for the midgame zvt, since a third is hard to take because of the wide chokes. I'd preferred FS just because of the choke, even if all of you are sick of it.
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Canada11314 Posts
Man. What a series. So, so good.
edit.
Also, I would hold off on balance complaints as JD only recently rejoined BW.
edit again.
In reply to Pleasuremann. Spoilered for space.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 18 2017 09:27 Pleasuremann wrote:
It's not childish at all, if you work hard for something you want to be rewarded no matter what you do. If the only reward is getting shitted on in the internet I can totally understand why he doesn't have the desire to compete anymore. Flash is still human even if it's hard to believe  Every standout individual, in any sport, in the history of sports has accumulated his share of vitriol/hatred. Lebron James comes to mind; one of the most hyper-scrutinized and criticized figures of our time. He and others like him are forced to recognize that antagonism comes with the territory. To try and argue against the nature of fame and its complications, especially when you're the prominent figure in your field, is to deny the irrevocable truth that you can't please everyone. I love Esports; I love FlaSh, I love it all, man. I think it's fair to say that the medium is a little different than professional sports in some ways. On your stream, you've got floods of hate. I get that. But picture being an athlete going into a stadium or court on an away game. Those guys have to deal with random people hating on them, to their face, with the intention of getting in their heads so they'll perform worse in the game that starts in 10 minutes. NBA players have an 82-game season, not counting pre or post season. Let's assume that in half(41) of those games, there's a few random douches in the crowd who feel it is their JOB to tell them they're shit so their team can win. And if you're the star player? If you're Lebron James? This kind of thing is going to happen much, much more often than that. And your twitter comments are probably going to show it. Esports isn't as big as athletic sports are, and I think everyone here recognizes it is a different medium. But for a player to publicly announce he may withdraw from leagues(which can be construed as holding the league hostage, intended or not) because he is recieving negative attention is hypersensitive at best, and manipulative at worst. Is winning not its own reward? I understand they're making their money from their stream support, but at what point must the franchise's best player say 'enough', and begin to cultivate that resilient filter that COMES from being hated and push through it? Adversity makes a player better in any sport. If it doesn't, they collapse from the pressure and that's it. But threatening to quit because people are trying to undermine your success is showing that at some level, you hold others responsible for your actions. If someone wants to quit, they can quit. There's no need to talk about it or place blame. Even if there is hate, these are players who are still a part of Esports; they likely follow tournaments and they care enough to post something even if it's negative. Fanatacism across the spectrum is a part of competitive life. Maybe I'm being too hard on him; he's 24 and we all mature at different levels as we navigate through life. But what does it say about the league when its best player threatens to quit whenever his haters get under his skin? Is that an image the ASL wants to promote?
Nah man. People seem to feel entitled to directing their vitriol at people. Screw that noise. inControl talked a little about that sort thing- it's different when there's a handful of people yelling at you. It's an entirely different thing when it's thousands of people directing their vitriol at you. Angry internet mobs because that's really what it is- an angry mob, is not something that needs a defence.
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ZvT stats this Starleague:
11 - 8 in maps counting Flash's and JD's matches (one was a free win for Flash against Terror);
5 - 3 in maps excluding F+J.
Clearly terrans are OP, and the current TvZ meta is unbreakable.
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On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all.
If a player makes no mistakes then they played perfectly and should win. Unless you think both players played perfectly and thus the racial bias and map bias are the only factors.
No one has ever played a perfect starcraft game. It's not like there's a solved version of it like Connect Four.
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Before new late game was invented in 2010 balance in TvZ was, IMHO, OK. Despite the bad statistics for Zergs, I argue that the results were more the fault of bad Zerg players than race imbalance overall. Zerg had one job that day - get enough gas, build ultras, snipe the vessels, send waves of zeglings/ultras, wait for gg from terran. Maraton of ZvZ semifinals and finals is my argument here. Anyway even then it was puzzleing that mediocre terrans were sometimes incredibly succesfull vs top Zergs.
Now, when late game ZvT is no longer in favour of Zergs, I actually accept that this matchup is favourable for terran on most maps.
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On January 20 2017 14:22 juvenal wrote:
ZvT stats this Starleague:
11 - 8 in maps counting Flash's and JD's matches (one was a free win for Flash against Terror);
5 - 3 in maps excluding F+J.
Clearly terrans are OP, and the current TvZ meta is unbreakable.
from less than 20 games played you declare terrans are OP... riiight
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On January 20 2017 15:45 Zera wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 14:22 juvenal wrote:
ZvT stats this Starleague:
11 - 8 in maps counting Flash's and JD's matches (one was a free win for Flash against Terror);
5 - 3 in maps excluding F+J.
Clearly terrans are OP, and the current TvZ meta is unbreakable. from less than 20 games played you declare terrans are OP... riiight That's 11-8 in favour of Zerg.
Though tbh, every matchup has been turned upside down in ASL 2. Zerg is 28% in ZvP, Protoss is 36% in PvT.
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On January 20 2017 16:20 Terrorbladder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 15:45 Zera wrote:On January 20 2017 14:22 juvenal wrote:
ZvT stats this Starleague:
11 - 8 in maps counting Flash's and JD's matches (one was a free win for Flash against Terror);
5 - 3 in maps excluding F+J.
Clearly terrans are OP, and the current TvZ meta is unbreakable. from less than 20 games played you declare terrans are OP... riiight That's 11-8 in favour of Zerg. Though tbh, every matchup has been turned upside down in ASL 2. Zerg is 28% in ZvP, Protoss is 36% in PvT.
oh my bad. True that 
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On January 20 2017 06:59 lolmlg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2017 23:07 Dante08 wrote:On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?" I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes.
Before flash started using late mech switch, I have a clear memory that JD was the favorite in the super standard games. He used to have insanely good hive play in addition to his muta micro. Examples off the top of my head: power outage game, WCG finals tau cross game, Rush Hour 3 game. I haven't gone back and check, but I'm wondering, don't other people have this impression also?
I remember Flash using a lot of nonstandard builds to win some of the MSL finals against JD, such as the goliath + mnm midgame attack.
After mech switch, Flash was likely the favorite in the standard long game. But I feel like it's well known that JD never mastered the gameplay vs. late mech.
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On January 20 2017 11:13 duke91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 06:59 lolmlg wrote:On January 19 2017 23:07 Dante08 wrote:On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?" I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes. I think people deny imbalances nowadays more in order to make BW not appear 'weak' in comparison to some other RTS often cited in this very community. However such low level of argumentation is silly. BW balance is not perfect. However it is remarkably not that imbalanced, given the complexity of the game. If you look at all the other RTS games, it is by a huge margin the most balanced game ever. However this doesn't mean it is perfectly balanced. Also ASL2 map pool is imbalanced for the midgame zvt, since a third is hard to take because of the wide chokes. I'd preferred FS just because of the choke, even if all of you are sick of it.
Historically, imbalances in BW have mostly been map-dependend. Sure BW is not perfectly balanced. But it's inherent balance is so good that the remaining imbalances can "easily" be come by map design. That said, we haven't fully understand what map design leans the map in favour of a certain match-up. But that can be tested. It also might require meta-game shifts. So yeah FS was historically balanced during KeSPA while we had maps during the Savior era that really played in the hands of the terrans at that time. FS seems to be imbalanced post-KeSPA. I think it's not the fault of the map but more because players got worse and the meta shifted because of that. I think a big part of FS not being balanced anymore is because zerg players' muta micro got worse which enabled terrans to rush to the easily accessible third much quicker. That gave them an enormous boost for the late game.
On January 20 2017 18:27 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 06:59 lolmlg wrote:On January 19 2017 23:07 Dante08 wrote:On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?" I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes. After mech switch, Flash was likely the favorite in the standard long game. But I feel like it's well known that JD never mastered the gameplay vs. late mech.
I don't think you can really master playing against 3-3 mech as zerg...
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TvZ is probably a tad more T favored in the current meta than would be ideal.
But it's silly to use this series as the example. Jaedong did great this ASL, but he's nowhere near all the way back. He's not even the best ZvT player right now. He might not even be a top 3 ZvT player right now!
Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
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On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
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On January 20 2017 08:04 killer1nz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 07:50 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 20 2017 05:35 Peeano wrote:On January 19 2017 16:08 n.DieJokes wrote:Does anyone have the map statistics for Demian? I'm curious, looks like a hard map to hold a third 'Joined November 2008', doesn't know how to use TLPD... Shame on you. To be fair, Demian only seems to show up in the BW Amateur database, not the Professional one. And the link from its Liquipedia map page to TLPD is busted, aka 'Unknown Map': http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/679_Demian I don't think it was used during professional BW
Looking it up, yeah, it's only been around since 2014.
Still doesn't explain the busted 'Unknown Map' link on its map page. Obviously, it's known.
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On January 20 2017 19:26 Jae Zedong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well. Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
I think its a cycle. I cant count how many times Ive watched professional Bw and thought that a matchup/strat/unit is imbalanced, only for things to turn around. It might take months or even a year, but it will happen. And the greatest players have always been the ones who have turned match ups upside down.
Even having said that though, and even though Flash himself has said that 5rax is quite strong nowadays, too little credit is given to flash. I know it is hard to not belittle someone when the post is arguing about imbalance (which is ok to discuss even though it is such a minefield), but at least show some effort.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On January 20 2017 19:01 Miragee wrote:
I don't think you can really master playing against 3-3 mech as zerg...
Thing is the "best" zergs haven't had as much practice to break it and it doesn't help that the Terrans that are around now are some of the best Terrans there's ever been. ZerO using queens is a step in the right direction imo.
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On January 20 2017 19:50 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 19:26 Jae Zedong wrote:On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well. Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era. I think its a cycle. I cant count how many times Ive watched professional Bw and thought that a matchup/strat/unit is imbalanced, only for things to turn around. It might take months or even a year, but it will happen. And the greatest players have always been the ones who have turned match ups upside down. Even having said that though, and even though Flash himself has said that 5rax is quite strong nowadays, too little credit is given to flash. I know it is hard to not belittle someone when the post is arguing about imbalance (which is ok to discuss even though it is such a minefield), but at least show some effort.
How did I belittle Flash lol. I said he basically perfected TvZ. He's making the absolute most out of what he is given, it's just that his pieces are a little bit better. Like playing white in Chess.
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EPT
