EPT[ASL2] Semifinals: Flash vs Jaedong - Page 80
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. | ||
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
However, who knows what would have happened had those lurkers been up in time? I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome but perhaps made the process look less grim. I'm glad to see them both back and fighting in this beautiful game. 이제동 HWAITING! | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On January 19 2017 09:34 SirGlinG wrote: I'm thinking of the scan Flash did on JD's hydras as he saw them move out before the hydra ling push. JD just three hatch lurker'd the game before, had a similar if not exactly the same set up for this game. The timing of moving out those 3-4 hydras that Flash saw, was it within reason to be read as JD just going for a lurker contain/push? Or did Flash misread the timing and what he needed to defend? It's a odd push so no matter how Godly he is, playing that is gonna be difficult. BTW next season Hydras will be the meta of very Zerg match up and JD will win! A pro gamer, especially one of Flash's calibre, has to know a hydra bust is possible when he walls and the units spawn outside, especially after he didnt scan the lair. Hell, as a TvZ and ZvT main player, I sometimes do the bust, and know to read it. Even after he miss-read it, if he had just built 2 bunkers in each other's range, he'd win the game easily. Just 2. He had plenty of time to do it. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11827 Posts
On January 19 2017 01:05 BigFan wrote: so I presume that you can get to the top of fish and get top 4 next ASL c3rberUs?  No, thanks, I don't play terran. I play starcraft the manly way. | ||
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Terrorbladder
2755 Posts
On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: My head hurts after reading this post. It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more. I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. | ||
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On January 19 2017 19:56 quirinus wrote: A pro gamer, especially one of Flash's calibre, has to know a hydra bust is possible when he walls and the units spawn outside, especially after he didnt scan the lair. Hell, as a TvZ and ZvT main player, I sometimes do the bust, and know to read it. Even after he miss-read it, if he had just built 2 bunkers in each other's range, he'd win the game easily. Just 2. He had plenty of time to do it. I agree Flash should've handled it better, and said so many times in this thread. That said, I think people overestimate how robotic these players can be, especially in televised situations. Hydra bust ZvT is so rare at high levels, and it's almost inconceivable that it would be used in a do-or-die game. It's far more common at low levels, so it's probably more on low level players' minds. As for the two Bunkers, I think Flash over-optimized for protecting his natural CC and mineral line. There actually weren't many places he could've built Bunkers in a way to still keep the Hydras from shooting the CC. That said, it still would've been the right move, as with the 5 Rax and +1 build, all he needed was to stabilize. But he got "greedy" in trying to hold his natural with no disruption to mining. In fairness, if Flash did manage to hold the whole natural, he would've won for sure, so it's kind of like a defensive all-in. | ||
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TT1
Canada10093 Posts
In any case it was a good build by JD, had Flash spawned at the bottom base im not sure he would have done a hydra allin. When you wall with a rax on the top base your units come out from the wrong side, so thats essentially -1 rax worth of production which is a huge deal vs builds like hydra allin (especially when you wall and have 2 exposed depots). When the attack hit Flash was basically working off 1 rax worth of production. Even with 2 bunks (which Flash couldn't fully fill, he had 3 marines 2 bats when the attack hit, so he'd have 5 marines if he responded properly) i think JD could just focus down the SCV's and kill the bunks (or maybe just run in after killing the depot). | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 19 2017 21:56 TT1 wrote: Biggest mistake Flash made was not having an SCV out on the map, JD didn't even have ling speed (which is already a tell) so he couldn't have killed it. In any case it was a good build by JD, had Flash spawned at the bottom base im not sure he have done a hydra allin. When you wall with a rax on the top base your units come out from the wrong side, so thats essentially -1 rax worth of production which is a huge deal vs builds like hydra allin (especially when you wall and have 2 exposed depots). When the attack hit Flash was basically working off 1 rax worth of production. Even with 2 bunks (which Flash couldn't fully fill, he had 3 marines 2 bats when the attack hit, so he'd have 5 marines if he responded properly) i think JD could just focus down the SCV's and kill the bunks (or maybe just run in after killing the depot). The good old no scouting flash! Do you think it could have worked If Flash would have scouted it, then built the bunkers outside of his wall in? 5 marines, one bunker outside his rax (with repairing scvs) for defending against the first wave, buying time for the four rax building in in his main. And then two bunkers by his cc. Perhaps he can't support that kind of production while 6-7 scvs repair a bunker but it's flash. | ||
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TT1
Canada10093 Posts
On January 19 2017 22:17 SirGlinG wrote: The good old no scouting flash! Do you think it could have worked If Flash would have scouted it, then built the bunkers outside of his wall in? 5 marines, one bunker outside his rax (with repairing scvs) for defending against the first wave, buying time for the four rax building in in his main. And then two bunkers by his cc. Perhaps he can't support that kind of production while 6-7 scvs repair a bunker but it's flash. Not sure about the positioning of the bunks, i think behind the depots is safer because he can can reinforce them faster. Best response would have obviously been to scout with an scv, once he knows its a hydra allin he can lift the rax @ his wall into his nat and start producing from it. In that spot i think its better to just skip medics and get marines + bunks so u can fill 2-3 bunks up asap. But yea, main thing is not being caught off guard. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On January 19 2017 21:56 TT1 wrote: Biggest mistake Flash made was not having an SCV out on the map, JD didn't even have ling speed (which is already a tell) so he couldn't have killed it. In any case it was a good build by JD, had Flash spawned at the bottom base im not sure he would have done a hydra allin. When you wall with a rax on the top base your units come out from the wrong side, so thats essentially -1 rax worth of production which is a huge deal vs builds like hydra allin (especially when you wall and have 2 exposed depots). When the attack hit Flash was basically working off 1 rax worth of production. Even with 2 bunks (which Flash couldn't fully fill, he had 3 marines 2 bats when the attack hit, so he'd have 5 marines if he responded properly) i think JD could just focus down the SCV's and kill the bunks (or maybe just run in after killing the depot). He tried to sneak an SCV but it was caught by zerglings in the middle of the map and those zerglings were parked outside the natural of Flash, since then he had no way to scout anything with SCVs. On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more. I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. This can not bet more wrong. Handicapped his entire career? Flash has won far more? You sure? It would just have taken you one minute to check stats in TLPD. I will help you with that. JD vs T 64% winrate. Head to head with Flash was 24 - 25 in favour for Flash. Check your facts before posting something like this. Cheers  | ||
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sharkie
Austria18761 Posts
On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more. I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. Jaedong is more talented than Flash <3. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4189 Posts
On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more. I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. | ||
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TT1
Canada10093 Posts
On January 19 2017 23:00 Zera wrote: He tried to sneak an SCV but it was caught by zerglings in the middle of the map and those zerglings were parked outside the natural of Flash, since then he had no way to scout anything with SCVs. This can not bet more wrong. Handicapped his entire career? Flash has won far more? You sure? It would just have taken you one minute to check stats in TLPD. I will help you with that. JD vs T 64% winrate. Head to head with Flash was 24 - 25 in favour for Flash. Check your facts before posting something like this. Cheers His initial scouting SCV should stay on the map. Keep scouting to see when z gets speed, when he takes his nat gas and try to sneak into his main for a rescout. | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
True, to be honest I only said he was on par with Flash to moderate my post a little. Jaedong best ever <3 | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5963 Posts
On January 19 2017 16:08 n.DieJokes wrote: 'Joined November 2008', doesn't know how to use TLPD... Shame on you.Does anyone have the map statistics for Demian? I'm curious, looks like a hard map to hold a third | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
highways complaining about terran LOOOOL we're back in 2009 | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On January 19 2017 23:07 Dante08 wrote: - Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance. Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?" I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On January 19 2017 16:08 n.DieJokes wrote: Does anyone have the map statistics for Demian? I'm curious, looks like a hard map to hold a third http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/679_Demian/games only 5 TvZs | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 20 2017 05:35 Peeano wrote: 'Joined November 2008', doesn't know how to use TLPD... Shame on you. To be fair, Demian only seems to show up in the BW Amateur database, not the Professional one. And the link from its Liquipedia map page to TLPD is busted, aka 'Unknown Map': http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/679_Demian | ||
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