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On January 21 2017 19:45 Pleasuremann wrote:
Do you see Esports as different? Perhaps that the prominent and exceptional figures within it should not be subject to the same inherent rigors and scrutinies of their professional athlete contemporaries? If so, why?
First, Flash isn't even a professional gamer anymore. These guys are more entertainers than anything now.
Second, Flash makes his money directly from his fans, and from interacting with his fans. He doesn't really get to choose to "tune out" the noise because he has to read through the same chatbox the trolls are spamming him in to interact with his real fans to maximize his earnings. This is completely different than professional athletes who make their money through contracts and sponsorships, and almost never directly make a dime off of their fans. It's like if LeBron had to physically wade through the crowd of haters at every away game in order to talk to the Cavs fans who would then pay him his salary.
Third, most people on this thread are making way too big a deal out of something Flash said once. We have no idea how serious he is, or if he was simply letting off steam because he was emotionally wrought after a very stressful series.
Overall, the equivalence you're drawing here doesn't make sense once you peel beyond the superficial "top gamer <==> top professional athlete".
And honestly, if LeBron could make equally as much money as he did now without having to put up with what he does, I bet he at least seriously considers it. He's also said stupid stuff he didn't mean when he wasn't feeling well, like after the Heat lost to the Mavs and he said that all the people rooting for him to fail would still have to go back to their lives tomorrow, in a way that implied their lives suck.
You're basically taking the most generous interpretation of pro athletes, and the least generous interpretation of a thing Flash said literally once, and building your case around those starting points, which feels pretty flawed.
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On January 21 2017 21:43 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 19:45 Pleasuremann wrote:
Do you see Esports as different? Perhaps that the prominent and exceptional figures within it should not be subject to the same inherent rigors and scrutinies of their professional athlete contemporaries? If so, why?
First, Flash isn't even a professional gamer anymore. These guys are more entertainers than anything now. Second, Flash makes his money directly from his fans, and from interacting with his fans. He doesn't really get to choose to "tune out" the noise because he has to read through the same chatbox the trolls are spamming him in to interact with his real fans to maximize his earnings. This is completely different than professional athletes who make their money through contracts and sponsorships, and almost never directly make a dime off of their fans. It's like if LeBron had to physically wade through the crowd of haters at every away game in order to talk to the Cavs fans who would then pay him his salary. Third, most people on this thread are making way too big a deal out of something Flash said once. We have no idea how serious he is, or if he was simply letting off steam because he was emotionally wrought after a very stressful series. Overall, the equivalence you're drawing here doesn't make sense once you peel beyond the superficial "top gamer <==> top professional athlete". And honestly, if LeBron could make equally as much money as he did now without having to put up with what he does, I bet he at least seriously considers it. He's also said stupid stuff he didn't mean when he wasn't feeling well, like after the Heat lost to the Mavs and he said that all the people rooting for him to fail would still have to go back to their lives tomorrow, in a way that implied their lives suck. You're basically taking the most generous interpretation of pro athletes, and the least generous interpretation of a thing Flash said literally once, and building your case around those starting points, which feels pretty flawed.
I agree 100%. A professional athlete HAS to enter into a particular role as one of someone super confident to achieve success in their sport. This role is supposed to shield them from becoming nervous in front of crowds and in the face of stiff competition.
Flash cannot do that so easily, because he has to be in touch with his emotions, if his respones to his fans donations in the chat shall be perceived as authentic and heart-felt.
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Just as a heads-up for anyone watching the ASL Finals tonight...
...it starts EARLIER than usual, aka Midnight PST, instead of the usual 2am.
Don't get caught off-guard and curse the stars above for missing it. 
(...even if it is a TvT).
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It's a false dichotomy to say you cant be entertaining to fans and at the same time be emotionally guarded. Sorry. It might be hard to do, but its clearly a false dichotomy, and quibbling over whether the development of modern gaming makes one more of an entertainer or a professional gamer is....ultimately pointless. They are just human concepts attempting to encapsulate translatable meaning. Call Flash a professional gamer or a professional streamer, neither would fully encapsulate what he does/is and thats because the definitions are in flux. So why debate them?
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On January 22 2017 07:27 Dazed_Spy wrote:
It's a false dichotomy to say you cant be entertaining to fans and at the same time be emotionally guarded. Sorry. It might be hard to do, but its clearly a false dichotomy, and quibbling over whether the development of modern gaming makes one more of an entertainer or a professional gamer is....ultimately pointless. They are just human concepts attempting to encapsulate translatable meaning. Call Flash a professional gamer or a professional streamer, neither would fully encapsulate what he does/is and thats because the definitions are in flux. So why debate them?
No one's saying players "can't". You just invented a strawman, and then called it a false dichotomy.
Also no one is debating whether he's a pro gamer or pro streamer. Another strawman! People are just noting that he's not just a pro gamer anymore, and that his income source functions differently than when he was purely a progamer.
Some people are just empathizing with Flash because a bunch of people are freaking out about one thing he said one time. At most some people are saying that "it's harder" than others are making it out to be to interact with fans and take all the trolling, not that it's impossible. And my post was pointing out that using "professional athletes" as a standard is not even close to being an apples to apples comparison.
If anything, this discussion has been a microcosm of how annoying it must be at times to be a streamer, even before we consider outright trolls. If you want to be casual and authentic, this is an example of how people might take one thing you said and blow it way out of proportion.
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On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all.
You're absolutely correct. A top Terran, if he makes no mistakes, just can't be beat. They said that if AI played Starcraft, the one with most potential is Terran because it has so much flexibility and requires so much multi-tasking, that if used correctly, would blow the other races out of the water. Well we see that with Flash as one of the most complete Terran players. ZvT is very unfair and uphill battle for Zerg. The sad thing is, 3 hatch mutas which is standard BO for Zerg, is suspectible to so much Terran "non-risky" cheese, and may still get punished by timing pushes before defiler. And right after defiler, when Terran starts massing Tanks and mines, Z is in trouble again.
BW is such an old game but balance change is needed at highest level. Medics 40 health would be a small start but not enough. I would suggest tanks do less damage to mitigate their late game deathball power, and SCV revert to 45 health like they should've been in SC2. SCVs are the toughest workers to harrass and kill thanks to their high health.
I would also push Hydras to be more viable in ZvT by giving them a passive, where their attacks decrease the enemy unit's regeneration by 50% for few seconds. This would give them a fighting chance vs. Bio and not affect other matchups.
Increase the cost of vulture to 100 minerals, but give them slightly more damage to armored units to make them better late game and worse early game.
Make Terran buildings cost 100/100 research to be able to lift, like burrow costs 100/100, so that T can be punished for proxying buildings via cheese and still have to pay for the failed cheese like other races.
Finally, make Ultralisks stand over Terrain like mineral patches and small units which would help late game ZvT a little bit.
These are small changes that should go into the alarmingly one-sided matchup and should help, and look for bigger changes later down the road if need be. To summarize:
0. Medics 40 health (your suggestion)
1. Tank damage decreased to 55 and splash also reduced
2. Hydras gain new passive that reduces regeneration / healing
3. Vulture gains more armored damage, but costs 100 minerals
4. Terran buildings require 100/100 investment tech to lift.
5. Ultralisks can stand over small obstacles
6. SCV health reduced to 45
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TLADT24920 Posts
Some of these things would break ZvT. The matchup is fine as is. Anyone not named Flash is losing and winning just as much. EffOrt has also been taking games off Flash and is close to 50% with him (something like 40ish% last I checked). Also, lol at making lifting a 100/100 investment.
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On January 22 2017 14:34 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. These are small changes that should go into the alarmingly one-sided matchup and should help, and look for bigger changes later down the road if need be. To summarize: 0. Medics 40 health (your suggestion) 1. Tank damage decreased to 55 and splash also reduced 2. Hydras gain new passive that reduces regeneration / healing 3. Vulture gains more armored damage, but costs 100 minerals 4. Terran buildings require 100/100 investment tech to lift. 5. Ultralisks can stand over small obstacles 6. SCV health reduced to 45
ZvT does lean T ever so slightly, but many of those suggestions would cause problems in other places, such as TvP, where 55 damage, reduced-splash Siege Tanks would be a disaster for T vs massed goons, massed zels, or both. 
I'd agree that the Medic heal rate is a little too high, and maybe Irradiate could be de-buffed a tiny bit around the edges, but much beyond that, you're screwing things up, not helping. 
And of course, it's highly unlikely that there are going to be balance changes in the new patch in any case. But, they are fun to talk about. 
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My biggest problem with ZvT has always been: I see terran screw up early to mid game and still win in the end (because of tanks). But I rarely ever saw zergs screw up early to mid game and win in the late game. If that doesn't say something about the matchup then I don't know what does.
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On January 22 2017 19:04 sharkie wrote:
My biggest problem with ZvT has always been: I see terran screw up early to mid game and still win in the end (because of tanks). But I rarely ever saw zergs screw up early to mid game and win in the late game. If that doesn't say something about the matchup then I don't know what does.
That's why people say it tends to tip in favour of terran. However, if both players don't slip up it's an issue and as you know, you don't balance games to account for obvious mistakes.
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On January 22 2017 19:04 sharkie wrote:
If that doesn't say something about the matchup then I don't know what does.
Actual stats? Objective analysis that doesn't involve talking about what you qualify as a 'screw-up'?
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On January 22 2017 19:04 sharkie wrote:
My biggest problem with ZvT has always been: I see terran screw up early to mid game and still win in the end (because of tanks). But I rarely ever saw zergs screw up early to mid game and win in the late game. If that doesn't say something about the matchup then I don't know what does.
Isnt it the same for PvT?
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why are you all whining about TvZ? How about PvT? Or ZvP?
grow up
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On January 22 2017 15:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 14:34 parkufarku wrote:On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote:
It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all. These are small changes that should go into the alarmingly one-sided matchup and should help, and look for bigger changes later down the road if need be. To summarize: 0. Medics 40 health (your suggestion) 1. Tank damage decreased to 55 and splash also reduced 2. Hydras gain new passive that reduces regeneration / healing 3. Vulture gains more armored damage, but costs 100 minerals 4. Terran buildings require 100/100 investment tech to lift. 5. Ultralisks can stand over small obstacles 6. SCV health reduced to 45 ZvT does lean T ever so slightly, but many of those suggestions would cause problems in other places, such as TvP, where 55 damage, reduced-splash Siege Tanks would be a disaster for T vs massed goons, massed zels, or both. I'd agree that the Medic heal rate is a little too high, and maybe Irradiate could be de-buffed a tiny bit around the edges, but much beyond that, you're screwing things up, not helping. And of course, it's highly unlikely that there are going to be balance changes in the new patch in any case. But, they are fun to talk about.
You may have a point on the tanks. I want to be able to change up ZvT without affecting TvP too much. TvP is in a fairly good state
On January 22 2017 21:04 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2017 19:04 sharkie wrote:
My biggest problem with ZvT has always been: I see terran screw up early to mid game and still win in the end (because of tanks). But I rarely ever saw zergs screw up early to mid game and win in the late game. If that doesn't say something about the matchup then I don't know what does. Isnt it the same for PvT?
no, PvT is fairly balanced matchup. Actually the most balanced non-mirror matchup. If T does 2 fact opening and fails, he'll most likely lose the game. Same for a P with a failed DT cheese.
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On January 21 2017 21:43 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2017 19:45 Pleasuremann wrote:
Do you see Esports as different? Perhaps that the prominent and exceptional figures within it should not be subject to the same inherent rigors and scrutinies of their professional athlete contemporaries? If so, why?
First, Flash isn't even a professional gamer anymore. These guys are more entertainers than anything now. Second, Flash makes his money directly from his fans, and from interacting with his fans. He doesn't really get to choose to "tune out" the noise because he has to read through the same chatbox the trolls are spamming him in to interact with his real fans to maximize his earnings. This is completely different than professional athletes who make their money through contracts and sponsorships, and almost never directly make a dime off of their fans. It's like if LeBron had to physically wade through the crowd of haters at every away game in order to talk to the Cavs fans who would then pay him his salary. Third, most people on this thread are making way too big a deal out of something Flash said once. We have no idea how serious he is, or if he was simply letting off steam because he was emotionally wrought after a very stressful series. Overall, the equivalence you're drawing here doesn't make sense once you peel beyond the superficial "top gamer <==> top professional athlete". And honestly, if LeBron could make equally as much money as he did now without having to put up with what he does, I bet he at least seriously considers it. He's also said stupid stuff he didn't mean when he wasn't feeling well, like after the Heat lost to the Mavs and he said that all the people rooting for him to fail would still have to go back to their lives tomorrow, in a way that implied their lives suck. You're basically taking the most generous interpretation of pro athletes, and the least generous interpretation of a thing Flash said literally once, and building your case around those starting points, which feels pretty flawed.
Good points all around, and thank you for your thoughtful response.
First, it IS false equivalency to equate athletes with entertainers in this instance. I won't deny it-I was aggrandizing to make a point. Second, it IS just one little comment Flash made which has contextual elements we can't be fully aware of. I didn't have any issue with the comment he made beyond feeling a little sympathy. I had an issue with what followed - a seemingly hyper-vigilant trove of commentors whom immediately pointed at the apparent inequality of the dynamic in which he is making his living.
It is fine to come rushing to your hero's side as a fan; but the responses just seemed a little like a mother coddling their child.
I understand better now that the streamers must virtually come in contact with their fans to make their money. I also understand that there are intrinsic and inalienable hardships that come with being in the public eye, regardless of one's profession. You can say it's not a profession if you like, but these people are still exchanging their time and services for a purpose which yields revenue.
There was also an assumption about Lebron in there that we can't ever verify.
It could be said that atheletes never directly make a dime off their fans. But they implicitly make millions off of them. Wthout viewership, there would be no league; at least not what it is now. Without ad revenue and gear sales, there would similarly be no sponsorships as we know them. Fans drive the machinery upon which professional sports are built. In streaming, the money comes explicitly from the fans. In sports, it comes implicitly. But the money still comes from the fans and ends up in the player's pocket. It just changes hands a few times.
With respect to having a buffer between athletes and fans which is not afforded to streamers and fans - give me a break. The hate coming from the internet and not real life IS the buffer. In our theoretical experiment here, there's a difference between Flash having to look at a wall of text and Lebron physically maneuvering himself through hating, spiteful fans to get his money. It's nothing like that. That is also false equivalency.
In the end I agree it is ridiculous to even be talking about this as it is ultimately pointless.
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On January 22 2017 21:58 Terrorbladder wrote:
why are you all whining about TvZ? How about PvT? Or ZvP?
grow up
You grow up! You grow up AND YOU DIE!!!
lol.
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This is ridiculous argument. ZvT may be a bit favored towards terran but flash has said that right before his ro4 with jaedong he practiced with effort and other zergs and they were killing him everytime he went 5 barrack +1. The most reasonable solution to this imbalance is to END the usage of fighting spirit. This map is so garbage for zergs. its so easy for terrans to defend 4 bases when they are mech switching. The rush distance is also ridiculously short which enables terran to effectively execute timing attacks. Circuit breaker needs to be the new most popular map
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On January 25 2017 05:24 Shinokuki wrote:
This is ridiculous argument. ZvT may be a bit favored towards terran but flash has said that right before his ro4 with jaedong he practiced with effort and other zergs and they were killing him everytime he went 5 barrack +1. The most reasonable solution to this imbalance is to END the usage of fighting spirit. This map is so garbage for zergs. its so easy for terrans to defend 4 bases when they are mech switching. The rush distance is also ridiculously short which enables terran to effectively execute timing attacks. Circuit breaker needs to be the new most popular map
Im fine with CB as long as they remake in the jungle tileset with narrow ramps
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Woah. I cannot believe how poorly many of you evaluate this series. This series highlighted ZERO of the T>Z dynamics. Literally zero.
This series was decided by strategic decisions and micro. Flash, at this point in time, is clearly playing more solid then Jaedong, and even still mistakes cost Jaedong the series.
In one game, Jaedong made a horrible decision to start his lurker upgrade after his hive (or he just plain forgot it).
His Muta micro was subpar for him and for a korean live event - his match strategy was interesting and almost paid off. He did show some of the one of a kind decisive actions that like Tasteless said, propelled him to the top in his first few starleagues.
Terran does have some very clear areas of dominance T>Z but so many of you have tears on your keyboards for all of the wrong reasons. This wasn't mech abuse, this wasn't map splitting mass ira - this was an MMA fight where the figher who fought better won.
In ladder games, we see more abusive play by both terrans and zerg but very rarely do the top level zergs lose because of the game is broken.
P.S - My fellow brothers and sisters of the brood, if you only do 1 build every game and expect to break even against equal opposition .... then you deserve the loses you get.
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On January 22 2017 21:58 Terrorbladder wrote:
why are you all whining about TvZ? How about PvT? Or ZvP?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Just because one matchup may have a balance issue, doesn't mean we can't discuss another match-up that also may have balance issues.
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EPT
