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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 29 2016 04:23 wassbix wrote: Do people not remember late 2011-2012 when Flash was getting his teeth kicked in by Fantasy and Jangbi in individual leagues. Didn't he get 2-0'd by Jangbi and then 3-0'd by Fantasy in a super convincing manner too? How is this relevant | ||
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Miragee
8467 Posts
Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. Either that, or he was trying to argue that Flash wasn't a bonjwa due to a late-career slump. Which I don't buy. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 05:34 GeLaar wrote: Something certainly has been fabricated here. I did not mention anything about "win streaks" until you did. And even then, I only pointed out that it was you who brought up win streaks. It seems that we can't agree on who said what, even with a written record in front of us. You specifically mentioned how Bisu's upset over sAviOr was more impactful, due to how it ended the dominance of sAviOr and how good he was against protoss, and how it the break in sAviOr winning streak was on a bigger scale of upset than any other in history. I provided the counter-argument that there were similar levels of upsets by mentioning iloveoov's insane streak against the zerg race, and how July ended that. You're the one that tried to make the upset more unique than it actually was by trying to force the narrative that the level of domination sAviOr showed was unstoppable by the protoss race before Bisu came along. Go tell sAviOr to have a 23 game winning streak like iloveoov was able to do (as opposed to his actual 9 game winning streak), then, we can agree that the protoss race was hopeless against sAviOr, and how Bisu's breaking of that win streak was more radical than any other in history. You also failed to provide any arguments to establish your assertion that no protoss did not know by which method to beat the zerg players, which is also a fabrication of the truth. They may not have had the level of success Bisu reached, but the evolution of the PvZ match-up wasn't already at the works by 2006 by other protoss players such as Daezang. Please go watch this game before constantly trying to force me into agreeing with you that protoss players had no idea how to win versus zerg before Bisu showed them how. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220172796769 You are shitting on the attempts made by other protoss players that paved way for Bisu to show his revolutionary style against the zerg race. Bisu was responsible for leading the way in one of the most significant meta-game shifts in history, in the most dramatic style possible. However, the meta-game revolution was already at the works with or without Bisu there, and although Bisu was responsible for exposing its full potential, but the basic approach that Daezang showed was essentially had the same foundations of what differentiated Bisu's style of forge expansion, which was the early map control provided by the corsairs and dark templars/speed zealots, which minimized the resources spent on cannons, which paved way for faster explosion of gateways. This is Bisu playing one the same map before Daezang's match. Notice he builds templar archives before he builds the Stargate. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100196972803 This is the match versus sAviOr that happened more than two months after Daezang's match, notice how he molded his opening to more closely resemble Daezang's style, with the early Stargate after forge expansion that we are more familiar with today. + Show Spoiler + It's not just the individual leagues that this trend takes place. Notice how Daezang goes for fast Stargates before using speed zealots in November 2006, while competing for his team in SKY 2006 ProLeague R2. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220172796769 Notice how just a couple of weeks before Daezang reveals his refreshing method of play, Bisu prefers the more traditional forge expansion into fast Citadel of Adun, used by top protosses such as Nal_rA at the time. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220166868358 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220168736490 Then after Daezang enjoys success with his fast Stargate builds, in both the ProLeague and the individual leagues, Bisu suddenly goes for Stargate first builds in the ProLeague. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220186328889 I think Bisu was instrumental in the advancement of the PvZ match-up, and enjoyed greater success in this traditionally difficult match-up for the protoss race than any other protoss player in history. His triumph over sAviOr, and the great performances he had versus the zerg race throughout his career, forever cemented his place in history as the one who gave hope to the protoss race. However, give credit where it is due. Daezang was already working out the next phase of the evolution before Bisu managed to show it in televised games. You may have conveniently forgotten about these games, but I was also watching these games. Other protoss players were experimenting new methods of playing versus zerg including TerAtO, or PuSan in a similar era. You have just smeared all over their blood, sweat, and tears of these players, just to push your narrative that Bisu changed the match-up by a greater amount than any other single player in history, and how amazing this achievement is, and how Bisu can never be even touched by mere mortals who did it the boring way, and just won championships by being good. Can you figure out why I think you may be over-emphasizing your own personal experiences of watching the game, rather than relying on objective facts, and statistics? How exact do you think your recollections of the professional scene are? Are they accurate enough to completely ignore statistics, and just going by your gut feelings of who was more "impactful" or "meaningful"? I don't know how much inside information you have, or how many games you managed to watch over all these years. But your method of judging players would suck balls if you don't have a grasp of the entire professional realm to a level that extends far beyond my capabilities. I would never assume to judge players according to their impact. How would I know which players created which strategies during practice, even if I managed to watch every single professional game ever played? How would I know about the origins of all the strategies ever created, and by which precise amount various players contributed towards it, and how much exactly they need to be praised for its impact? Are you even aware of the magnitude of knowledge you would require just to discuss this very topic with the certainty and authority you casually fling around? Who the fuck are you to decide like it's a certain fact, which players created which strategies, and who should be praised by which amout for certain meta-game shifts, and who should be ignored despite their contributions? At least I admit the limitations that I have with judging players by raw data. You don't even seem to be aware of your own fallacies, and keep throwing across these vague, sweeping statements like they are a fact. Are are you relishing on that realm of uncertainty and vagueness like some mad Evangelical stating faith as fact, and quick to point out the limitations of data and objective analysis, but blind to flaws in judging the world based purely based on your personal perspective? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I was made aware of how much Bisu's accomplishments mean to you on a personal level. I'm not trying to take that away from you. But what I am trying to stop, is your attempts to make your own personal interpretation as if they are the status quo. At least I can back my numbers and statistiscs up, even if the level of correlation between objective performance rating and bonjwahood is a thing for discussion. You're just making weird statements that have no factual evidence like "no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals". What the hell was Daezang doing in those games if he wasn't taking an active participation of taking the evolution of PvZ to the next level? You also had the audacity to call me out when I tried to counter your claim of Bisu's victory over someone "who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable" was an "unprecedented and never since repeated achievement", with statistics that showed that sAviOr wasn't as unbeatable as some of the more dominant forces in history. All this meaningless, time-wasting arguments, and I can almost sense that you didn't even watch the game I linked to you once and kept harping on and on about how other protoss players had no idea about how to play the match. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On December 29 2016 03:23 Letmelose wrote: Out of the modern era players, perhaps. I think NaDa has him beat by about four or so. NaDa has the best record for every possible record for every possible bracket that I'm aware of (equaled by some, but not surpassed by), except for the most number of appearances in semi-finals or above, which Jaedong has him beat by one. Stork has the most OSL Ro16's. For OSL+MSL combined it's NaDa. This reminds me I tallied up the Ro16 and Ro8 appearances and I should share it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K-XShgsBp_Sp__xB4EtzuO5j9-VH2kagIATG3G3z6rs | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
I now feel pretty good about joining the camp that considers Jaedong to be 'the Uncrowned Bonjwa', and in considering Bisu to be 'pretty close, but not quite'. Though if Protoss needs a bonjwa, I guess it's Bisu or no one. Maybe that's wrong, maybe that's right. But if it's wrong, I don't wanna be right.  And maybe everyone should lighten up a little. This is a very good time in BW right now, much to be thankful for. And at the end of the day, bonjwa is just a word. A cool word, but just a word. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 13:28 Crisium wrote: Stork has the most OSL Ro16's. For OSL+MSL combined it's NaDa. This reminds me I tallied up the Ro16 and Ro8 appearances and I should share it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K-XShgsBp_Sp__xB4EtzuO5j9-VH2kagIATG3G3z6rs I have slightly different numbers. I have 28 for NaDa and 24 for Stork. NaDa 1) 1st KPGA Tournament: Round of 8 2) 2nd KPGA Tournament: 1st 3) 3rd KPGA Tournament: 1st 4) 4th KPGA Tournament: 1st 5) Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 1st 6) Olympus OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 7) Stout MSL: 2nd 8) Mycube OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 9) TG Sambo MSL: 3rd 10) NHN Hangame OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 11) Hanaforce CEN MSL: 2nd 12) Gillette OGN StarLeague; Round of 8 13) SPRIS MSL: Round of 16 14) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 15) YATGK MSL: 2nd 16) IOPS OGN StarLeague: 1st 17) UZOO MSL: Round of 16 18) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 19) Pringles MSL S2: Round of 16 20) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: 1st 21) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 2nd 22) Daum OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 24) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 25) GomTV MSL S4: Round of 8 26) Arena MSL: Round of 16 27) Clubday MSL: Round of 8 28) Lost Saga MSL: Round of 8 A top eight finish or above in every single year from 2002~2009. Not bad for a dude that was drinking beer before the games, and playing more Sudden Attack than Starcraft. Stork 1) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 2) So1 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 3) Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 4) Pringles MSL S1: Round of 16 5) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Round of 16 6) GomTV MSL S2: 2nd 7) Daum OGN StarLeague: 3rd 8) GomTV MSL S3: Round of 16 9) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 10) Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 11) EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 12) Clubday MSL: Round of 8 13) Incruit OGN StarLeague: 1st 14) Batoo OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 15) Lost Saga MSL: Round of 4 16) Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague; Round of 16 17) EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 18) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1: Round of 16 19) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: Round of 4 20) PDPOP MSL: Round of 8 21) Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 22) ABCMart MSL: Round of 16 23) Jin Air OGN StarLeague; Round of 16 24) tving OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 A top eight finish or above in every single year from 2007~2011. As a side note, I think it's hilarious that Sea, who was not been to the round of four even once in his career, managed to accumulate thirteen round of 16 or above performances. The ultimate pub-stomper with his amazing records in the ProLeague, and sustained excellence in terms of qualifying for the lowest stages of the individual leagues. Imagine if he was a little dedicated towards his profession, I think he could have been one of the greatest terrans in history, instead of being one of the numerous terrans to do well in the ProLeague, but fall short in the individual leagues in the modern era. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Edit: Updated I agree Sea is interesting. 13 Ro16 appearances, 2 Ro8, 0 higher. 60% winrate though. Hwasin also only made 1 Ro4 despite 17 Ro16 and 7 Ro8 appearances. Excluding the match fixing scandal, he should be considered once of the most consistent Terran threats ever just from constantly placing top 16. Imagine how many players he eliminated in Ro16 and lower. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 14:53 Crisium wrote: Thanks, somehow I forget to check 2004 IOPS OSL and EVER2005 OSL in my Ro16 numbers. I will update my numbers. That will change several players' totals. Edit: Updated I agree Sea is interesting. 13 Ro16 appearances, 2 Ro8, 0 higher. 60% winrate though. Hwasin also only made 1 Ro4 despite 17 Ro16 and 7 Ro8 appearances. Excluding the match fixing scandal, he should be considered once of the most consistent Terran threats ever just from constantly placing top 16. Imagine how many players he eliminated in Ro16 and lower. Hwasin was an incredibly linear player who excelled on simplistic maps that maximized his deadly timing attacks. He was indeed one of the best terrans around at certain points in his career, when the terran race as at an all time low in terms of having a player to look up to, definitely a sound player who made most of his strengths. He was a little unlucky with the brackets, but he was never destined for greatness in my opinion. He may have went a little deeper with more fortuitous brackets here and there, but I never felt like he had it in him, like I once did with Sea. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. no. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
That would necessitate that Bisu lose early, horribly, and in some bizzare manner, so I vote no :D edit: ok weird the post i was quoting dissappeared and got replaced. Original quote was about ASL being the equivalent of the OSl, now my reply just makes no sense. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On December 29 2016 01:58 Letmelose wrote: I agree with a lot of your points, Jaedong career was as unsexy is it gets for such an extensive career at the top. He peaked at all the wrong moments, versus the wrong opponents, and never had his own brand of narrative. When he was objectively the best player in the scene, Flash and Bisu were busy being knocked out in the round of 16. When Flash was objectively the best, Jaedong was there to make all his victories that much sweeter. Jaedong's failures were harder to forget about because of how unmemorable his triumphs were, no matter how of it he had in terms of quantity. sAviOr's failures were overshadowed by not only frequency of his success, but how impactful they were, and how his fans re-branded it as an untouchable legacy. From an objective pure statistical point of view, he wasn't as untouchable as one might imagine. There's a reason why sAviOr's still regarded by some as the greatest zerg ever simply due to his legacy, however, while I see reasoning behind the arguments, I think the fabrication of the legend is something that is tagged alongside the narrative of sAviOr's sexy storyline. I swear to god there are still people out there who think Longinus was the most broken map ever, when we had the likes of Ragnarok, or Othello and Tiamat in the more recent era. sAviOr's ethereal performance in Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 is heavenly to watch even to this date, but the over-glorification of the legend is so unreal at times, that I can't take arguments based on those fabrications seriously. I think the players with the sexy storylines, and the mass appeal already gets their due respect, sometimes too much so. The map imbalance they faced suddenly becomes the greatest injustice any player had ever faced. Their meta-game contributions now become the unfathomable moments of genius never seen before or since. Their performance gets bonus points for style, and the actual numbers in terms of trophy count, consistency of performance across all platforms of competition, and overall win rate are meaningless, irrelevant statistics made to confuse the matters of real importance, which are how we felt watching the games. Who cares about what actually happened if we felt another way about it? Shouldn't this entire competitive realm to judged for how much emotions they drew out of us? For example, your comments on Bisu being so much ahead of his fellow protoss brethren is another over-blown notion that comes from Bisu's star power in my opinion. Let me compare Jaedong to sAviOr, and Bisu to Stork. Jaedong versus sAviOr 1st place finishes: 5 vs 4 Finals or above: 9 vs 6 Semi-finals or above: 12 vs 7 Quarter-finals or above: 14 vs 11 Round of 16 or above: 18 vs 13 I won't even mention the ProLeague results. Let's just say it's as close as it gets to a complete whitewash. If you don't want to see how thoroughly mediocre sAviOr was apart from his peak in the 2006 season, don't click the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + SKY 2004 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 11th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R3: No games played vs 3rd best zerg in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 8th best zergin terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 3rd vs the best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 2nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: The best vs the 6th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 2nd best vs 25th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: The best vs 32nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played SK Planet ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played Bisu versus Stork 1st place finishes: 3 vs 1 Finals or above: 4 vs 5 Semi-finals or above: 7 vs 8 Quarter-finals or above: 10 vs 12 Round of 16 or above: 16 vs 24 Stork actually outperforms Bisu across all stages of competition apart from the finals, which is the key difference, but unlike Jaedong, who outperforms his counterpart regardless of the bracket stage, Bisu's only trump card over Stork is that he is more clutch in the finals. In the ProLeague, it's actually in favour of Stork apart from three seasons (that lasts about two and a half years), two of which had amazing performances from Bisu that were memorable (the keyword of today's discussion), but for the other four and a half years, Stork was doing better than Bisu in the ProLeague, sometimes by a significant margin. SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 4th best protoss in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the best protoss in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: No games played vs the 6th in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the 8th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 11th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 10th vs 4th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 6th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 5th vs 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best vs 3rd best protoss in terms of records SK Planet ProLeague: 3rd vs the best protoss in terms of records So exactly how was Bisu that much better? Are we going by statistics, or again, with how we felt about their respective performances, and how impressive Bisu's peaks and how palatable it was to recreate it into a legend that would overshadow the actual level of performance the players displayed. Fair enough, I think I'm giving Bisu a more credit than he deserves due to "feelings". However, let me try to make a case for why he's quite a ways above Stork. I'm not sure I even fully agree with what I'm about to say =P. But, I think this will be fun for the sake of discussion. I totally agree that feelings and narrative often lead to overly strong opinions. You've aptly noted that the 3/3 Revolution arguably wasn't even the biggest upset in BW history as it's often labeled (and even I labeled it that way earlier in this thread), because July's victory over iloveoov was by any quantitative measure a bigger upset. However, the challenge with going with stats is there's still a lot of surface area and room for opinion. For example, you can compare stuff like RO16 qualifications, or # of seasons one player was better in Proleague. But there's also career stats, player vs race stats, ELO ranks / peaks, Kespa ranks, etc. I personally prefer to anchor on stats and then add in narrative, rather than vice versa (whereas Bisu supporters tend to anchor on narrative and then throw in stats where convenient, hehe). But I don't think it's possible to squeeze out all subjectivity in evaluating players either (not that you've been saying that - I just wanted to make that point explicitly clear for this post). All stats paint an incomplete picture, and so there's a lot of subjectivity in how you weight them. For instance, no one who seriously followed the scene thinks Kespa ranking was a great system, but it wasn't random either, and reaching #1 was still a meaningful concept. Personally, I think # of RO16 qualifications is overrated, because it's mostly testing a player's consistency at beating inferior players, since that's usually how a non-seeded player would re-qualify for RO16 each year. It also disproportionately weights how early a player's career started, since BW didn't end organically (does anyone think Flash doesn't end up with the RO16 record if the scene lasted forever?). Personally, I also think # of finals made, and especially a player's performance in finals, matter a ton, because OSL/MSL finals were what it was all about from an individual standpoint. But I also recognize a lot of this is indeed personal, and shouldn't be assumed to be a global view. To me personally, the Bisu >> Stork argument comes down to dominance. Bisu was a stronger player for longer. Bisu was the best player in the world for much longer. Bisu was scarier for longer. If you had to pick between Bisu and Stork to play one game for you, knowing nothing about the opponent, you go with Bisu in most months starting in 2007. While feelings are a part of this, I think there's a statistical case as well, which I'll present below. But speaking of narrative, I actually think Stork gets a little too much credit for his "consistency" - it's become part of his narrative as the oldest player to stay elite. He's kind of like the modern day analog to how Nada was viewed from 2008-2010, only Stork's peak was nowhere near Nada's. Yeah, Stork kept making RO16, but he wasn't someone you feared that much in leagues, and it wasn't surprising when he got knocked out. Bisu's narrative actually backfired on him in the last couple of years of his career, because he was still a great player who looked theoretically capable of beating anyone, and kept putting up solid to great PL stats. Thus, his RO32/RO16 failures were amplified, especially Bisu also had way more anti-fans by the end of his career. That said, Stork at least made an OSL finals in 2011. Bisu really was quite bad in MSL/OSL starting in 2009.... Ok, time for some stats, finally. First there's winrate. Bisu ended up around 66%, and Stork ended up around 60%. Sometimes winrates can be misleading because a player sucked especially hard at the beginning or end of their career (like how Stork's winrate over Flash is inflated by stomping Flash as a rookie six times), but I think they're pretty representative of the players here. Going into matchups, Bisu was the greatest PvZ player ever by far (I think we can at least all agree on that!), and Stork, even at his peak, was never a scary PvZ player. Their winrates reflect this - Bisu at an incredible 71.5%, Stork just under 55%. (Feelings-wise, it always felt to me like any decent A-team Zerg had a puncher's chance to beat Stork for almost the entirety of his career. And when Stork was struggling, it felt like he was an underdog against even medium tier A-team Zergs, and a heavy underdog against whomever was an elite Zerg at the time.) As for PvT, I think most people who watched lots of BW felt that Stork was actually the better PvT player. The winrates bear this out too, though it's not huge (Bisu 63%, Stork 66%). Bisu was so talented mechanically, and PvT is a matchup that inherently lends itself to Protoss players crushing inferior Terran players, so he was still very good at this matchup. But Stork was a PvT surgeon. I think if Bisu had Stork's understanding of PvT, he might have had Flash's career. PvP is where it gets interesting. I actually personally had felt like Stork understood this matchup better than Bisu. Earlier in their careers, Stork had better winrates, but Bisu became nearly untouchable for periods of time in PvP later on. Bisu actually ended up a smidge under 64% in PvP while Stork ended up a smidge under 60%. Let's move to ELO peaks, since that better captures "peak performance". ELO peaks got inflated by there being way more games in the later years, but since Bisu and Stork's careers overlapped almost entirely, I think it's reasonable to use ELO peaks to compare them.
As for Kespa rank, I definitely don't want to rely too much on this flawed ranking, but it was interesting to see that Bisu was much less far ahead of the pack than I expected on this front. Bisu was the top Protoss for 26 months, while Stork was for 21 months. Bisu was #1 overall for 6 months, while Stork was #1 overall for 4 months. I admit the narrative got me on this one - I had fully expected Bisu to be head and shoulders above Stork on Kespa rank, but actually Flash and Jaedong were way more ahead of their respective races on this front than Bisu. Now that I've gone through more of the stats, I don't think Bisu was quite as far ahead as I did previously. I do think what holds Stork back is that Stork never had the peaks, such as never having a Proleague season nearly as good as Bisu's best year, only winning one final (in spite of making it to more than Bisu did), and pretty much always having a PvZ achilles heel that made it hard to ever feel like he was dominant. The relative dominance comes down to the other guys. Jaedong has Savior (and to some extent, July and Yellow), and Flash has Boxer/Nada/iloveoov (and to some extent, Fantasy). Bisu has Stork (and to some extent, Nal_Ra, Reach, maybe Anytime, maaaybe Garimto?). Savior, Boxer, Nada, and oov were all "clearly the greatest player in the world" for many months at a time. Stork arguably had it for a month or two at most. So that's why it sometimes feels like Bisu was farther ahead, because he was the only Protoss to ever have a prolonged period of "this guy is the best", but I admit it's quite subjective to zoom in on that now that I look at more of the full picture. Question for you: Stork vs Fantasy. Few would argue that Fantasy had an outright superior career to Stork. But how big is the gap between them? They have very similar Starleague histories, overall winrates, and ELO peak pictures. Fantasy's career was shorter, but BW's untimely demise contributed to this. Should Fantasy be viewed as very close to Stork? And if so, does that mean Fantasy should be viewed as very close to Bisu? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 16:37 darktreb wrote: Fair enough, I think I'm giving Bisu a more credit than he deserves due to "feelings". However, let me try to make a case for why he's quite a ways above Stork. I'm not sure I even fully agree with what I'm about to say =P. But, I think this will be fun for the sake of discussion. I totally agree that feelings and narrative often lead to overly strong opinions. You've aptly noted that the 3/3 Revolution arguably wasn't even the biggest upset in BW history as it's often labeled (and even I labeled it that way earlier in this thread), because July's victory over iloveoov was by any quantitative measure a bigger upset. However, the challenge with going with stats is there's still a lot of surface area and room for opinion. For example, you can compare stuff like RO16 qualifications, or # of seasons one player was better in Proleague. But there's also career stats, player vs race stats, ELO ranks / peaks, Kespa ranks, etc. I personally prefer to anchor on stats and then add in narrative, rather than vice versa (whereas Bisu supporters tend to anchor on narrative and then throw in stats where convenient, hehe). But I don't think it's possible to squeeze out all subjectivity in evaluating players either (not that you've been saying that - I just wanted to make that point explicitly clear for this post). All stats paint an incomplete picture, and so there's a lot of subjectivity in how you weight them. For instance, no one who seriously followed the scene thinks Kespa ranking was a great system, but it wasn't random either, and reaching #1 was still a meaningful concept. Personally, I think # of RO16 qualifications is overrated, because it's mostly testing a player's consistency at beating inferior players, since that's usually how a non-seeded player would re-qualify for RO16 each year. It also disproportionately weights how early a player's career started, since BW didn't end organically (does anyone think Flash doesn't end up with the RO16 record if the scene lasted forever?). Personally, I also think # of finals made, and especially a player's performance in finals, matter a ton, because OSL/MSL finals were what it was all about from an individual standpoint. But I also recognize a lot of this is indeed personal, and shouldn't be assumed to be a global view. To me personally, the Bisu >> Stork argument comes down to dominance. Bisu was a stronger player for longer. Bisu was the best player in the world for much longer. Bisu was scarier for longer. If you had to pick between Bisu and Stork to play one game for you, knowing nothing about the opponent, you go with Bisu in most months starting in 2007. While feelings are a part of this, I think there's a statistical case as well, which I'll present below. But speaking of narrative, I actually think Stork gets a little too much credit for his "consistency" - it's become part of his narrative as the oldest player to stay elite. He's kind of like the modern day analog to how Nada was viewed from 2008-2010, only Stork's peak was nowhere near Nada's. Yeah, Stork kept making RO16, but he wasn't someone you feared that much in leagues, and it wasn't surprising when he got knocked out. Bisu's narrative actually backfired on him in the last couple of years of his career, because he was still a great player who looked theoretically capable of beating anyone, and kept putting up solid to great PL stats. Thus, his RO32/RO16 failures were amplified, especially Bisu also had way more anti-fans by the end of his career. That said, Stork at least made an OSL finals in 2011. Bisu really was quite bad in MSL/OSL starting in 2009.... Ok, time for some stats, finally. First there's winrate. Bisu ended up around 66%, and Stork ended up around 60%. Sometimes winrates can be misleading because a player sucked especially hard at the beginning or end of their career (like how Stork's winrate over Flash is inflated by stomping Flash as a rookie six times), but I think they're pretty representative of the players here. Going into matchups, Bisu was the greatest PvZ player ever by far (I think we can at least all agree on that!), and Stork, even at his peak, was never a scary PvZ player. Their winrates reflect this - Bisu at an incredible 71.5%, Stork just under 55%. (Feelings-wise, it always felt to me like any decent A-team Zerg had a puncher's chance to beat Stork for almost the entirety of his career. And when Stork was struggling, it felt like he was an underdog against even medium tier A-team Zergs, and a heavy underdog against whomever was an elite Zerg at the time.) As for PvT, I think most people who watched lots of BW felt that Stork was actually the better PvT player. The winrates bear this out too, though it's not huge (Bisu 63%, Stork 66%). Bisu was so talented mechanically, and PvT is a matchup that inherently lends itself to Protoss players crushing inferior Terran players, so he was still very good at this matchup. But Stork was a PvT surgeon. I think if Bisu had Stork's understanding of PvT, he might have had Flash's career. PvP is where it gets interesting. I actually personally had felt like Stork understood this matchup better than Bisu. Earlier in their careers, Stork had better winrates, but Bisu became nearly untouchable for periods of time in PvP later on. Bisu actually ended up a smidge under 64% in PvP while Stork ended up a smidge under 60%. Let's move to ELO peaks, since that better captures "peak performance". ELO peaks got inflated by there being way more games in the later years, but since Bisu and Stork's careers overlapped almost entirely, I think it's reasonable to use ELO peaks to compare them.
As for Kespa rank, I definitely don't want to rely too much on this flawed ranking, but it was interesting to see that Bisu was much less far ahead of the pack than I expected on this front. Bisu was the top Protoss for 26 months, while Stork was for 21 months. Bisu was #1 overall for 6 months, while Stork was #1 overall for 4 months. I admit the narrative got me on this one - I had fully expected Bisu to be head and shoulders above Stork on Kespa rank, but actually Flash and Jaedong were way more ahead of their respective races on this front than Bisu. Now that I've gone through more of the stats, I don't think Bisu was quite as far ahead as I did previously. I do think what holds Stork back is that Stork never had the peaks, such as never having a Proleague season nearly as good as Bisu's best year, only winning one final (in spite of making it to more than Bisu did), and pretty much always having a PvZ achilles heel that made it hard to ever feel like he was dominant. The relative dominance comes down to the other guys. Jaedong has Savior (and to some extent, July and Yellow), and Flash has Boxer/Nada/iloveoov (and to some extent, Fantasy). Bisu has Stork (and to some extent, Nal_Ra, Reach, maybe Anytime, maaaybe Garimto?). Savior, Boxer, Nada, and oov were all "clearly the greatest player in the world" for many months at a time. Stork arguably had it for a month or two at most. So that's why it sometimes feels like Bisu was farther ahead, because he was the only Protoss to ever have a prolonged period of "this guy is the best", but I admit it's quite subjective to zoom in on that now that I look at more of the full picture. Question for you: Stork vs Fantasy. Few would argue that Fantasy had an outright superior career to Stork. But how big is the gap between them? They have very similar Starleague histories, overall winrates, and ELO peak pictures. Fantasy's career was shorter, but BW's untimely demise contributed to this. Should Fantasy be viewed as very close to Stork? And if so, does that mean Fantasy should be viewed as very close to Bisu? I'd like to answer in depth, but I really don't have it in me to do these topics any justice. This comparison can be written into an essay given enough time and energy. There's a reason why Bisu was a potential candidate for the title of bonjwa, while Stork, a legendary player in his own right, was never seen as such. Bisu has the best overall record out of all the protoss players, and the highest trophy count, and two amazing years in the ProLeague. However, his career outside of that is closer to a series of unfulfilled promises and what-ifs. Stork, for all his limitations, is the only protoss in history to have eight years as a top protoss player in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague. What Stork lacks in his absolute peak, he makes up for with astonishing longetivity. For the two astonishing years Bisu had as the top protoss dog in the ProLeague, he matched it over with two years of being outside of the top ten protosses in the ProLeague (let that sink in for a moment, try to name ten protosses above Bisu in 2007 for example, sometimes we end up with names like cHalRengE). Stork never had a ProLeague season where he was outperformed by more than seven protoss players in his eight years as a elite tier protoss player. He was making it into the OGN StarLeague when NaDa was entering as the reigning champion, and was there for the ride until Brood War ended, reaching the finals whether it was in 2007 against Bisu, or 2011 against FanTaSy. I personally think Bisu was the better player of the two (although skill isn't everything in this profession), and depending on which mood I'm in, I can either answer Bisu had the better career, or Stork had the better career. Normally, I tend to answer against which ever side the obnoxious fanboyism comes from. I don't have strong opinion either way. As for FanTaSy. I don't think you are fully appreciating the longetivity Stork displayed, and letting the recent memories of FanTaSy beasting it in the hybrid-era of Brood War get the best of you. While FanTaSy matched some of the more noticeable achievements that Stork has managed to get in his career, their overall body of work is not comparable, you're just comparing the two after FanTaSy made a name for himself in 2008, without realizing Stork had about three years of solid performance before that happened. It's not a case like Bisu versus Stork where it's a choice between insanely high peak performances, or overall longetivity and excellence. I could go over the numbers, but I think the appreciation of the longetivity Stork enjoyed throughout his career is being criminally underrated with this comparison, so I won't bother. | ||
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Miragee
8467 Posts
Guess nobody got the joke. And here I thought I understood the meta. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
I haven't watched broodwar for very long, the July vs. Best was the first series that I really watched so I wasn't around for much of his career but looking at his accomplishments I think he deserves to be mentioned more. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
On December 29 2016 23:29 Foxxan wrote: Wasnt july overrated actually? I mean, his gamestyle revolved alot around all-ins? I mostly remember the late game sauron-zerg style of his. But I didn't watch a lot of his games so I might be totally wrong about that. But either way, a win is a win. If your strategy keeps winning it doesn't matter if it is considered cheap or easy or whatever. Look at liquipedia: The 1st Zerg to become No.1 in KeSPA Ranking and held that position for 11 months. The 1st Zerg to win the Golden Mouse. Holds the 1st and 2nd title in OSL for Zerg. Perfected the modern Muta micro technique. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
He won the 2004 Gillette OSL, 2008 EVER OSL, and made his last Ro16 in the 2009 Batoo OSL. It's rare to see that 6 year span in pre-2005, because it was a different style and that would mean one matched much younger, more modern players. The only other players who made a Ro16 in pre-2005 one in 2009 are GGPlay, Midas, Savior and NaDa. NaDa did even better than that as he made his first Ro8 in the 2002 KPGA 1st Tour and his last Ro8 in the 2009 Lost Saga MSL. Midas was 2004-2010 for his last. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. Exactly this | ||
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