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While I'm at it. I have an axe to grind with sAviOr fans. To disprove the fact that sAviOr was so much better during his prime than Jaedong ever was (don't get me wrong, I felt like sAviOr was more dominant as well, but didn't realize I was only impressed with his "big" victories while being unaware of his failures, or being less affected by them due how it was less exposed), here are the peak peformances for the bonjwa sAviOr, and the two bonjwa candidates that followed, Bisu and Jaedong.
1) sAviOr's streak from UZOO MSL ~ GomTV MSL S1 (681 days)
Overall record: 148-66 (69.2%)
Individual league performance: MSL 1st place (x3), OGN StarLeague 1st place (x1), MSL 2nd place (x2) in 11 individual leagues
EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 40
UZOO MSL: 1st
So1 OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers
(UZOO spans for about two OGN StarLeagues due to its extensive double elimination format and a BO7 finals)
CYON MSL: 2nd
Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 40
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Failed at the offline qualifiers
Pringles MSL S1: 1st
Pringles MSL S2: 1st
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: Failed at the offline qualifiers
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1st
GomTV MSL S1: 2nd
ProLeague records from this period: 22-11 (66.7%) (SKY 2005 ProLeague R1~SKT 2006 ProLeague R2) (4th most wins during this time frame)
SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: 2-2 (25th most wins)
SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 4-5 (22nd most wins)
SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 8-2 (3rd most wins)
SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 8-2 (2nd most wins)
2) Bisu's streak from GomTV MSL S1~Avalon MSL (his final round of eight in an individual league) (716 days)
Overall record: 145-90 (61.7%)
Individual league performance: MSL 1st place (x3), MSL 2nd place (x1), OGN StarLeague round of 4 (x2) in 12 individual leagues
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: Round of 42
GomTV MSL S1: 1st
GomTV MSL S2: 1st
Daum OGN StarLeague: Round of 8
GomTV MSL S3: 2nd
EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 3rd
GomTV MSL S4: Round of 32
Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 4
EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16
Arena MSL: Round of 32
Incruit OGN StarLeague: Round of 8
Clubday MSL: 1st
ProLeague records from this period: 22-23 (48.9%) (SKY 2006 ProLeague R2 ~ Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague) (don't know how many players I need to go through until I reach Bisu's win number)
SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 5-4 (12th most wins) (only four games were played during Bisu's individual league streak)
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 6-7 (29th most wins)
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 4-3 (40th most wins)
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 6-9 (30th most wins)
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 53-14 (3rd most wins) (only five games were played during Bisu's individual league streak)
3) Jaedong's streak from EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague ~ Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague (694 days)
Overall record: 230-98 (70.1%)
Individual league performance: OGN StarLeague 1st place (x3), MSL 1st place (x1), MSL 2nd place (x1), MSL round of 4 (x1) in 12 individual leagues
GomTV MSL S3: Failed at the offline qualifiers
EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 1st
GomTV MSL S4: 1st
Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8
EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 36
Arena MSL: 2nd
Incruit OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers
Clubday MSL: Round of 16
Lost Saga MSL: Round of 32
Batoo OGN StarLeague: 1st
Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st
Avalon MSL: Round of 4
ProLeague records from this period: 87-39 (69.0%) (SKY 2007 ProLeague R2 ~ Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague) (Most wins during this time frame)
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14-6 (4th most wins) (not including the play-off performances)
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 11-7 (13th most wins)
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 54-21 (2nd most wins) (not including the play-off performances)
As you can see, sAviOr and Jaedong had pretty comparable results in individual leagues, although sAviOr played in one less tournament (11) due to the enormously intensive scheduling of UZOO MSL compared to both Bisu or Jaedong (12). sAviOr and Jaedong both enjoyed success in other minor leagues and showmatches. sAviOr won some WEF Invitationals, and some SuperFights versus NaDa. Jaedong won GomTV Classic S1, and GomTV showmatch versus Bisu. Jaedong was superior in the ProLeague, although ProLeague wasn't as important back before the scheduling inflation in 2007. Their overall win percentage doesn't differ that much.
This is in contrast to Bisu, who was incredibly mediocre in the ProLeague during his peak performance in individual leagues, as well as only managing to win two titles versus the four won by sAviOr and Jaedong in a similar time frame.
Jaedong was slightly worse than sAviOr in individual leagues, but was slightly better in the ProLeague and other leagues (represented Korea twice in a row in WCG 2008/2009, won GomTV Classic Season 1, and won the GomTV showdown match versus Bisu). It's not such a big gap in domination as people make it out to be. sAviOr simply flopped when the limelight wasn't on him (didn't make it to televised rounds in OGN StarLeagues, dropped out early in the ProLeague), whereas Jaedong's failures were on big stages such as the Arena MSL, and the Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague Grand Finals. Their actual level of domination wasn't that different. They both won the same number of major trophies, Jaedong slightly better in minor tournaments (even if the landscape of minor tournaments was different, WCG Korea happened every year, and sAviOr never qualified for WCG during his prime), as well as being the superior player in the ProLeague (had the best individual ProLeague record during his prime, as well as winning Shinhan 2007 ProLeague, and coming second in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague, sAviOr had one year of being mediocre, and one year of being great in the ProLeague, but couldn't carry his team to victory even once).
sAviOr's domination was more visceral due to his ground breaking meta-game revolution, his tendency to do either really well, or just drop out really early without being noticed (it's more noticeable to get swept 0-3 in a BO5 in the finals, than it is to drop out 1-2 to a random nobody in the offline qualifiers), the hype surrounding him at the time, and the repainting of his absolute domination with rose tinted glasses (some people make it out as if he was beasting everybody and nothing could stop him, not even unbalanced maps, and his every waking moment was a replica of his legendary Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 run) has made sAviOr one of the more overrated players in history. His domination at the time was indeed mind boggling, and it was such a breath of fresh air to see a zerg player doing what terran bonjwas like NaDa or iloveoov did to the scene previously. However, from a pure statistical, and objective point of view, his domination over his fellow peers was never as astounding as his legend would have you believe.
Bonjwa is an outdated term that was created when sAviOr was the shit, and everybody had no choice but to accept his domination after finally winning the OGN StarLeague. What people felt about his domination is irrelevant. He was just as prone to failure as the other greats that followed him. He was not immune. Only Flash during his one year of absolute domination was immune. Maybe BoxeR in 2001 also, but the landscape of the competitive realm was way too different back then, and I wasn't there to witness it fully.
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On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote:
Bonjwa story telling time.
Bonjwa was a meme that was
...
unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual.
I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win).
It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues.
I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War.
Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007.
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Great job Sea. I didn't expect him to get through. The round of 8 line ups look amazing.
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On December 28 2016 14:12 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote:On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote:
Bonjwa story telling time.
Bonjwa was a meme that was
...
unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007.
You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though.
But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals.
To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant.
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On December 28 2016 22:18 GeLaar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2016 14:12 Letmelose wrote:On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote:On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote:
Bonjwa story telling time.
Bonjwa was a meme that was
...
unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007. You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant.
Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like.
The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories.
Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative.
I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate.
All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate".
With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada".
With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well.
Unfortunately for Jaedong, Savior had already claimed the unforeseen racial dominance storyline, so Jaedong couldn't have that. There was never a sexy or defining finals win in spite of the fact that almost all his finals wins were over "brand name" players. Some of this was timing:
- Beating Kal and Stork were both just "nice" wins at the time. At the time, Stork hadn't been great for long enough yet for the win to have that much significance ... this was pre-TBLS being a thing, and even if TBLS had been a thing, the blunt truth is that Stork was never good enough at PvZ for "Zerg beats Stork" to be that special.
- Same goes for beating Fantasy, who was still up and coming at the time. Coming back from 0-2 to win was cool but even that had happened recently with GGPlay vs Iris.
- Beating Yarnc was about as meh a way to get a Golden Mouse as possible - a ZvZ over a fluke finalist who later was revealed to be a matchfixer. Forget Flash's Golden Mouse narrative ... even July's was way better (3-0 over Best who had been absolutely dominating the scene over the past few months, with two balls on the fucking table moves - a 5 pool to win in game 1 and a Drone drill to win game 2). Say Jaedong's Golden Mouse comes in a dominant win over Bisu, far and away the greatest PvZ player ever, does the story feel different? We'll never know.
- Then there was his incredible MSL win over Flash, made possible in part by a crazy comeback victory on heavily T>>>Z map Odd Eye, only for this win to be tainted by the Power Outage, and later further diminished by Flash winning the next 3 finals against Jaedong.
If you go with the "we didn't think it was possible" criteria I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing Jaedong had was his ZvZ dominance. It really is amazing how great he was at ZvZ. But ZvZ is the least popular matchup in the game. Also, in a weird way I think Savior being so mediocre at ZvZ even during his peak, combined with his one pre-Bisu finals loss being a ZvZ finals, furthered the impression in everyone's minds that ZvZ just doesn't matter as much.
Jaedong also had the 0-1 comeback to 3-1 thing, but it was more a statistical fluke and nice microcosm of his mental fortitude, than something mindblowing.
At the end of the day, Jaedong didn't really do anything "we didn't think was possible" that was also "interesting" (thus disqualifying his ZvZ dominance). Instead, he was "merely" a really fucking great player who put up insane stats in both individual leagues and Proleague, while also winning stuff like a GomTV league and a WCG. And that's why Jaedong vs Bisu was ever even a debate, because as great as Bisu was (and don't get me wrong, Bisu is great. He is the greatest Protoss player of all time without any debate ... in fact I'd say Bisu is farther ahead of any other P than Jaedong is ahead of any Z or Flash is ahead of any T), Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too.
If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure.
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On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like.
I meant "irrelevant" in the overall context of his achievements. I remained a Bisu fan throughout the drought, and suffered because of his losses, but I don't think it is something to disqualify him from the title of bonjwa, if that is being discussed.
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories.
I completely agree that the word has a lot to do with emotion, which is why all attempts to settle the question of who is a bonjwa by using statistics are bound to fail. I think that some people try it anyway because they feel that the numbers favour their view, or that it disqualifies someone else's. But Letmelose is wrong about style being for suckers, and he's wrong to argue about bonjwahood based on numbers. The whole reason why players have fans even when they're not at their peak and not at the top is that people care about more than score and the number of titles.
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative.
I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate.
All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate".
With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada".
I agree with your point about Jaedong being a raw stats guy. But you'd have to disregard a lot more than "narrative" in order to claim that Jaedong had a better career than Bisu, because Bisu had impact. As did Savior. This is just my personal experience, but when Savior was at his peak, I felt like BW might actually become boring to watch, because this guy would never be stopped. He made the game seem inherently unbalanced, and I hated him. I don't think Jaedong's "reign" ever felt like that to me.
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well.
If you cared about being honest, you wouldn't insinuate that his looks had anything to do with it. All of the things you mentioned about him would have been enough to establish his legacy, without the looks.
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too.
This is only true if by "objectively" you mean "as measured by statistics". I think that Jaedong is probably the best Zerg player to ever play the game, but in the grand scheme of things, had there not been a Jaedong, the history of professional BW would have looked roughly the same as far as match-up balance and strategy are concerned. That is a statement you can not reasonably make about either Bisu or Savior.
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:
If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure.
There's nothing wrong about being biased in favour of one player, and "fanboy" is just name-calling meant to delegitimise someone's point. I don't think you're a fanboy.
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On December 28 2016 22:18 GeLaar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2016 14:12 Letmelose wrote:On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote:On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote:
Bonjwa story telling time.
Bonjwa was a meme that was
...
unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007. You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant.
I'm triggered by the approach some admirers of Bisu take when the subject of their hero is at hand, so mind my slight frustrations.
First of all. Watch this game.
http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100197083287
Forge expansion was used as early as 1999, by SSamJang. Nal_rA popularized it with his building placement enhancement that allowed it to be utilized more efficiently. PuSan, TerAtO, and Daezang were all using variations of forge expansion into early corsairs into ground troop usage, some as early as 2005. The game I have linked shows that Bisu's revolution, while incredibly noteworthy, was not that much different from the other protosses who had similar approaches to the match-up. The meta-game change was already at the works with or without Bisu. Bisu optimized it and showed the world how to utilize it on the biggest stage possible, but to say that the change was so dramatic that it cannot be compared with any other meta-game evolutions is really pushing it, and just reeks of the typical Bisu rose tinted glasses fanboyism I have grown to resent over the years.
There were plenty of revolutionary changes to the game. They just never happened in a finals of a major tournament. iloveoov's expansion before building acedemy, that was a game changer. sAviOr's three hatchery play versus terrans, and his usage of hive units and buildings, that was game changing. PuSan's optimization of mass gateways and arbiter usage, that was revolutionary at the time also. FanTaSy's late-mech transition changed the landscape of the terran versus zerg match-up. These changes were dramatic and optimized to an acceptable degree that the style of play created by those changes are still relevant to this date. The first ten minutes of zerg versus terran today still is almost identical to the method of play sAviOr introduced ten years ago. Bisu's heavy use of dark templars in his triumph versus sAviOr has been refined even further by being replaced by zealot pressure. How exactly is his more recent meta-game shift more influential than sAviOr's if sAviOr's style of play is being replicated even to this date, while Bisu's change is not? Bringing a shift in the meta-game during the finals of a major tournament gets you praise from the media, and the adulation of the fans who'll overblow the actual level of impact purely in terms of in-game meta-game change. However, realistically speaking, there has been other meta-game shifts that have been just as influential.
Further more, bonjwahood has nothing to do with influencing the meta-game. We're not discussing the evolution of match-ups, we're discussing the nickname coined for the greatest/most dominant players of their respective era. There has been zero attempts by the fans to credit PuSan for being a bonjwa no matter how much he contributed towards the protoss race in terms of meta-game evolution. These are entirely different arguments, and as such, Bisu's sub-50% performances in the ProLeague during his reign in the MSL, his failures in OGN StarLeague throughout his entire career, and his overall lower win rates during his peak all are relevant to the discussion of whether he was a bonjwa or not.
I am biased like everyone else, but I try to back up my statements with facts. I do not fabricate legends like some Bisu fanboys. I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. By building up his legend to unattainable heights, and dismissing his failures and limitations as irrelevant in a discussion of whether his domination was as thorough as sAviOr's was during his prime, I believe that may be the realm of fanboyism.
There's no shame in being less dominant than sAviOr, who was years ahead of his time. However, it is undeniable that Bisu's peak was inferior in terms of overall trophy count, finals appearances (two less finals appearnaces) , ProLeague performance-wise, and in terms of overall win rate compared to sAviOr's peak. It is also a fact that within a similar time frame Jaedong matched sAviOr's trophy count, but couldn't match his finals appearance (one less finals), but had a superior ProLeague performance (both in terms of absolute win rate, and being ahead of his peers) and overall win rate (mainly due to the ProLeague inflation). I may be biased for Jaedong, but I do not give extra-points for his GomTV MSL S4 victory for popularizing the three hatchery lair into five hatchery in the protoss match-up. That's what you just tried to do with Bisu's GomTV MSL S1 victory, and just shat on the entire history of competitive Brood War adding sentimental values to his upset win, and describing his meta-game revolution as changing "everything about what people thought was possible in BW". That's biased irrelevant discussion in my eyes.
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United States10092 Posts
I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values.
I think this is why raw stats and domination is maybe the metric for bonjwahood. I think if you were to talk about maybe influence as a player that Bisu would easily be up there but thats not the discussion at hand. Influence in a game and dominance are neither a causality nor are they irrelevant of each other at the same time.
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On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2016 22:18 GeLaar wrote:On December 28 2016 14:12 Letmelose wrote:On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote:On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote:
Bonjwa story telling time.
Bonjwa was a meme that was
...
unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007. You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant. Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like. The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories. Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative. I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate. All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate". With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada". With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well. Unfortunately for Jaedong, Savior had already claimed the unforeseen racial dominance storyline, so Jaedong couldn't have that. There was never a sexy or defining finals win in spite of the fact that almost all his finals wins were over "brand name" players. Some of this was timing: - Beating Kal and Stork were both just "nice" wins at the time. At the time, Stork hadn't been great for long enough yet for the win to have that much significance ... this was pre-TBLS being a thing, and even if TBLS had been a thing, the blunt truth is that Stork was never good enough at PvZ for "Zerg beats Stork" to be that special.
- Same goes for beating Fantasy, who was still up and coming at the time. Coming back from 0-2 to win was cool but even that had happened recently with GGPlay vs Iris.
- Beating Yarnc was about as meh a way to get a Golden Mouse as possible - a ZvZ over a fluke finalist who later was revealed to be a matchfixer. Forget Flash's Golden Mouse narrative ... even July's was way better (3-0 over Best who had been absolutely dominating the scene over the past few months, with two balls on the fucking table moves - a 5 pool to win in game 1 and a Drone drill to win game 2). Say Jaedong's Golden Mouse comes in a dominant win over Bisu, far and away the greatest PvZ player ever, does the story feel different? We'll never know.
- Then there was his incredible MSL win over Flash, made possible in part by a crazy comeback victory on heavily T>>>Z map Odd Eye, only for this win to be tainted by the Power Outage, and later further diminished by Flash winning the next 3 finals against Jaedong.
If you go with the "we didn't think it was possible" criteria I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing Jaedong had was his ZvZ dominance. It really is amazing how great he was at ZvZ. But ZvZ is the least popular matchup in the game. Also, in a weird way I think Savior being so mediocre at ZvZ even during his peak, combined with his one pre-Bisu finals loss being a ZvZ finals, furthered the impression in everyone's minds that ZvZ just doesn't matter as much. Jaedong also had the 0-1 comeback to 3-1 thing, but it was more a statistical fluke and nice microcosm of his mental fortitude, than something mindblowing. At the end of the day, Jaedong didn't really do anything "we didn't think was possible" that was also "interesting" (thus disqualifying his ZvZ dominance). Instead, he was "merely" a really fucking great player who put up insane stats in both individual leagues and Proleague, while also winning stuff like a GomTV league and a WCG. And that's why Jaedong vs Bisu was ever even a debate, because as great as Bisu was (and don't get me wrong, Bisu is great. He is the greatest Protoss player of all time without any debate ... in fact I'd say Bisu is farther ahead of any other P than Jaedong is ahead of any Z or Flash is ahead of any T), Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too. If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure.
I agree with a lot of your points, Jaedong career was as unsexy is it gets for such an extensive career at the top. He peaked at all the wrong moments, versus the wrong opponents, and never had his own brand of narrative. When he was objectively the best player in the scene, Flash and Bisu were busy being knocked out in the round of 16. When Flash was objectively the best, Jaedong was there to make all his victories that much sweeter. Jaedong's failures were harder to forget about because of how unmemorable his triumphs were, no matter how of it he had in terms of quantity. sAviOr's failures were overshadowed by not only frequency of his success, but how impactful they were, and how his fans re-branded it as an untouchable legacy. From an objective pure statistical point of view, he wasn't as untouchable as one might imagine.
There's a reason why sAviOr's still regarded by some as the greatest zerg ever simply due to his legacy, however, while I see reasoning behind the arguments, I think the fabrication of the legend is something that is tagged alongside the narrative of sAviOr's sexy storyline. I swear to god there are still people out there who think Longinus was the most broken map ever, when we had the likes of Ragnarok, or Othello and Tiamat in the more recent era. sAviOr's ethereal performance in Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 is heavenly to watch even to this date, but the over-glorification of the legend is so unreal at times, that I can't take arguments based on those fabrications seriously.
I think the players with the sexy storylines, and the mass appeal already gets their due respect, sometimes too much so. The map imbalance they faced suddenly becomes the greatest injustice any player had ever faced. Their meta-game contributions now become the unfathomable moments of genius never seen before or since. Their performance gets bonus points for style, and the actual numbers in terms of trophy count, consistency of performance across all platforms of competition, and overall win rate are meaningless, irrelevant statistics made to confuse the matters of real importance, which are how we felt watching the games. Who cares about what actually happened if we felt another way about it? Shouldn't this entire competitive realm to judged for how much emotions they drew out of us?
For example, your comments on Bisu being so much ahead of his fellow protoss brethren is another over-blown notion that comes from Bisu's star power in my opinion. Let me compare Jaedong to sAviOr, and Bisu to Stork.
Jaedong versus sAviOr
1st place finishes: 5 vs 4
Finals or above: 9 vs 6
Semi-finals or above: 12 vs 7
Quarter-finals or above: 14 vs 11
Round of 16 or above: 18 vs 13
I won't even mention the ProLeague results. Let's just say it's as close as it gets to a complete whitewash. If you don't want to see how thoroughly mediocre sAviOr was apart from his peak in the 2006 season, don't click the spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +SKY 2004 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 11th best zerg in terms of records
SKY 2004 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records
SKY 2004 ProLeague R3: No games played vs 3rd best zerg in terms of records
SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 8th best zergin terms of records
SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records
SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 3rd vs the best zerg in terms of records
SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 2nd best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: The best vs the 6th best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 13th best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 2nd best vs 25th best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 13th best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: The best vs 32nd best zerg in terms of records
Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played
SK Planet ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played
Bisu versus Stork
1st place finishes: 3 vs 1
Finals or above: 4 vs 5
Semi-finals or above: 7 vs 8
Quarter-finals or above: 10 vs 12
Round of 16 or above: 16 vs 24
Stork actually outperforms Bisu across all stages of competition apart from the finals, which is the key difference, but unlike Jaedong, who outperforms his counterpart regardless of the bracket stage, Bisu's only trump card over Stork is that he is more clutch in the finals.
In the ProLeague, it's actually in favour of Stork apart from three seasons (that lasts about two and a half years), two of which had amazing performances from Bisu that were memorable (the keyword of today's discussion), but for the other four and a half years, Stork was doing better than Bisu in the ProLeague, sometimes by a significant margin.
SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 4th best protoss in terms of records
SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the best protoss in terms of records
SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: No games played vs the 6th in terms of records
SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the 8th best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 11th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 10th vs 4th best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 6th best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 5th vs 2nd best protoss in terms of records
Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best vs 3rd best protoss in terms of records
SK Planet ProLeague: 3rd vs the best protoss in terms of records
So exactly how was Bisu that much better? Are we going by statistics, or again, with how we felt about their respective performances, and how impressive Bisu's peaks and how palatable it was to recreate it into a legend that would overshadow the actual level of performance the players displayed.
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On December 27 2016 21:56 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2016 21:52 PVJ wrote:First of all, I'm a bit biased. I also just really liked Best's game in the two rounds thus far. He had a well balanced strong arsenal of builds and there's that he can macro like no one else which could keep him always slightly just in game for long enough to surprise everyone. By the way, any news about the map pool? I'm a Bisu fan first, and a herO appreciator second, I just think that realistically speaking herO has the edge. I think that Bisu is a far better player, but their weaknesses and strengths just fall into herO's favor. Bisu seems to be stronger in PvT and PvP lately, and a bit weaker in PvZ while herO is a ZvP specialist and is historically very average at the other two match ups. I definitely want Bisu to win, I just think we should be realistic about his chances. If I were to call chances I'd say 60/40 for herO, but Bisu can definitely pull it off
I think you addressed the wrong person. I'm betting my money on BeSt beating hero in Ro8 so there won't even be a hero v Bisu match 
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On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
There were plenty of revolutionary changes to the game. They just never happened in a finals of a major tournament.
I'm well aware of that, I watched most of them live as they happened. I never claimed Bisu's revolution was the only one. I said "There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals." At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers, and certainly not Savior, with Protoss. Those three games together span 45 minutes, and at the end of them, everything that was known about playing against Zerg as Protoss had been turned upside-down. None of the developments you mention were as radical this. Everyone started playing the entire PvZ match-up with different builds after Bisu. It's not just that it was in the finals. It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken.
On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
Further more, bonjwahood has nothing to do with influencing the meta-game.
Sure it does. When talking about Savior, people constantly bring up the fact that he changed the balance of the game on maps that were considered to disadvantage Zerg. His change to the meta-game carry a lot of weight.
On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
I am biased like everyone else, but I try to back up my statements with facts. I do not fabricate legends like some Bisu fanboys. I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. By building up his legend to unattainable heights, and dismissing his failures and limitations as irrelevant in a discussion of whether his domination was as thorough as sAviOr's was during his prime, I believe that may be the realm of fanboyism.
You base your claims on a special kind of fact, namely numbers, and I fabricated nothing. Of course, the only hard numbers left after Bisu's win over Savior are "3-0", and the atmosphere surrounding it faded away. But Bisu changing what people thought was possible in BW is also a fact, and it is precisely the kind that is lost when you discard everything but the statistics.
Even calling that finals an "upset" takes something away from what happened back then. An "upset" is when the underdog wins, when the heavily favoured player loses. There have been plenty of upsets in BW history. The difference here was that Savior played exactly as everyone expected, played the way we all saw him win many times, and got crushed. He played the way people thought was "perfect", and lost. Effort coming back from 0-2 against Flash in an OSL finals was also an upset. You don't need to be a Bisu fan to understand that the MSL finals was a bit more than that.
When you bring up statistics, you talk as though the only thing that people are missing is access to the statistics of the individual players. That's not the case. I can count the same as you, and I know which of two numbers is larger. I look at your table summarizing the careers of Savior, Bisu and Jaedong, I read your analysis, and I still disagree with you.
If bonjwahood had been a thing decided by numbers, there wouldn't be a discussion. You keep trying it to make it into a thing of numbers by discarding what others say as fanboyism and sentimentality, but really, all you're doing is changing the topic.
The following questions can be settled using your table:
1. Who won the most titles in major competitions?
2. Who had the best win/loss ratio during their period of dominance?
3. Who won his titles in the shortest period of time?
None of these questions help settle the question of bonjwahood. And they completely miss the impact that the players had. Jaedong won a lot of games and titles. Bisu ended the dominance of a recognized bonjwa who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable, in the finals of a major competition with everything on the line. Bringing up his Proleague stats and post-2008 slump and trying to balance them against this unprecedented and never since repeated achievement seems laughable.
Finally, nothing I said diminishes the evolution of the game before or since Bisu. I "shat" on nothing. But that moment was something special, although perhaps you experienced it differently. If you don't want to consider Bisu a bonjwa, that's fine by me. For me he's the "Revolutionist" and "bonjwa-killer".
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On December 29 2016 01:30 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. I think this is why raw stats and domination is maybe the metric for bonjwahood. I think if you were to talk about maybe influence as a player that Bisu would easily be up there but thats not the discussion at hand. Influence in a game and dominance are neither a causality nor are they irrelevant of each other at the same time.
It triggers me so much when people come up with arguments based on their feelings. Especially if they are trying to say that their opinion on the games they watched, and the players they were impressed by are unswayed by the statistics and review of what actually went on. If any one of us actually watched every single competitive match in history, knew the context and the numbers for each and every one of them, then I would think reviews of the past through the numbers and facts might be unnecessary, but we all have our biases, and we all have incomplete perspective on our experience of viewing the competitive realm of Brood War. People's personal perspective on what mattered, or impressed them on an individual level is as meaningful as the opinions of a seven year old kid who thinks Harry Potter is the greatest work of literature ever written because he read it, and was blown away by the the adventures of a magical kid who got this history with an evil dude who couldn't kill a newborn.
It's like banging my head against a wall. The matches I don't remember or didn't watch don't matter. The matches I've watched, and the way I felt at the time are the only thing of importance, and I don't care if the past records, or statistics tell me otherwise. If I saw Bisu doing a new build for the first time, it was obviously a build that nobody else ever thought of, and anybody who says otherwise is biased against him, and is a hater. I don't care for the past, the only thing I care is my account of the past. What the fuck am I supposed to say against that?
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Doesn't Stork have the most Ro 16 placements ever or something like that?
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On December 29 2016 02:34 GeLaar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
There were plenty of revolutionary changes to the game. They just never happened in a finals of a major tournament.
I'm well aware of that, I watched most of them live as they happened. I never claimed Bisu's revolution was the only one. I said "There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals." At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers, and certainly not Savior, with Protoss. Those three games together span 45 minutes, and at the end of them, everything that was known about playing against Zerg as Protoss had been turned upside-down. None of the developments you mention were as radical this. Everyone started playing the entire PvZ match-up with different builds after Bisu. It's not just that it was in the finals. It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken. Show nested quote +On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
Further more, bonjwahood has nothing to do with influencing the meta-game.
Sure it does. When talking about Savior, people constantly bring up the fact that he changed the balance of the game on maps that were considered to disadvantage Zerg. His change to the meta-game carry a lot of weight. Show nested quote +On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote:
I am biased like everyone else, but I try to back up my statements with facts. I do not fabricate legends like some Bisu fanboys. I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. By building up his legend to unattainable heights, and dismissing his failures and limitations as irrelevant in a discussion of whether his domination was as thorough as sAviOr's was during his prime, I believe that may be the realm of fanboyism.
You base your claims on a special kind of fact, namely numbers, and I fabricated nothing. Of course, the only hard numbers left after Bisu's win over Savior are "3-0", and the atmosphere surrounding it faded away. But Bisu changing what people thought was possible in BW is also a fact, and it is precisely the kind that is lost when you discard everything but the statistics. Even calling that finals an "upset" takes something away from what happened back then. An "upset" is when the underdog wins, when the heavily favoured player loses. There have been plenty of upsets in BW history. The difference here was that Savior played exactly as everyone expected, played the way we all saw him win many times, and got crushed. He played the way people thought was "perfect", and lost. Effort coming back from 0-2 against Flash in an OSL finals was also an upset. You don't need to be a Bisu fan to understand that the MSL finals was a bit more than that. When you bring up statistics, you talk as though the only thing that people are missing is access to the statistics of the individual players. That's not the case. I can count the same as you, and I know which of two numbers is larger. I look at your table summarizing the careers of Savior, Bisu and Jaedong, I read your analysis, and I still disagree with you. If bonjwahood had been a thing decided by numbers, there wouldn't be a discussion. You keep trying it to make it into a thing of numbers by discarding what others say as fanboyism and sentimentality, but really, all you're doing is changing the topic. The following questions can be settled using your table: 1. Who won the most titles in major competitions? 2. Who had the best win/loss ratio during their period of dominance? 3. Who won his titles in the shortest period of time? None of these questions help settle the question of bonjwahood. And they completely miss the impact that the players had. Jaedong won a lot of games and titles. Bisu ended the dominance of a recognized bonjwa who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable, in the finals of a major competition with everything on the line. Bringing up his Proleague stats and post-2008 slump and trying to balance them against this unprecedented and never since repeated achievement seems laughable. Finally, nothing I said diminishes the evolution of the game before or since Bisu. I "shat" on nothing. But that moment was something special, although perhaps you experienced it differently. If you don't want to consider Bisu a bonjwa, that's fine by me. For me he's the "Revolutionist" and "bonjwa-killer".
1) Bisu's upset win was revolutionary due to how difficult it was to defeat sAviOr, and the level of upset was bigger than any other in history.
sAviOr was on a 9 game winning streak versus protoss players. His recent record at the time versus protoss was 21 wins and 3 losses. Bisu defeated him as a rookie.
Let's go back in history. There was this tournament called Gillette OGN StarLeague.
iloveoov was on a 23 game winning streak versus zerg players. His recent record at the time versus zerg was 44 wins and 2 losses. July defeated him as a rookie.
Any other in history? Perhaps you mean, any other in history of games you've watched.
2) Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game
You can shape the meta-game all you want, if the results aren't there, you're not a bonjwa. There's a reason why nobody mentioned the likes of Shark (who invented the mutalisk grouping micro), PuSan (who revolutionized the way PvT was played), and FanTaSy (who brought along the late-mech play that had a huge affect on the balance of the match-up). sAviOr was a bonjwa, and a revolutionary on top of that. If sAviOr was just another one hit wonder who won just one or two titles before fading away, his contributions to the meta-game alone wouldn't have made him a bonjwa.
3) The impact of the tournament win is what defines a player's career and his legacy
Sure, if you want to define players by how you felt. Impact cannot be measured. Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases. You specifically said that Bisu was responsible for the single biggest "turn in the meta-game of BW" in history. I showed you a game that was played before that basically had the same method of play. I also mentioned that sAviOr's contributions towards zerg versus terran are still being copied to this date. Exactly how many top class protosses today do you see playing Bisu's heavy reliance on dark templars and corsairs early on?
4) Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable.
Your perspective is incomplete as is mine. You didn't watch all the games that was played in history and understand the context behind them. You weren't there as an insider. You don't know who it was that created the strategies behind the scenes. You don't know how much impact it had on the players exactly. All you know, is, what you think happened based on your personal experience as a viewer with zero inside information, and the interactions you've had with random internet folks such as myself. Do you even realize, how much fallacy you can fall prey to, given your approach to rate players? Statistics are just numbers, and don't tell the full story. That's true. However, your arrogance of thinking that you know it all, believing that your personal opinions don't need statistics or insider information, but rather, your own personal interpretation of the events as a mere viewer is more than enough, is astounding to me.
I may not know much. I may not have seen much. But I do try to approach without relying on my memories, or perception of what went on. Your perception being more trustworthy than anything else relies on the assumption that you are absolutely free from bias, and have every possible knowledge and recollection of exactly what went on at the time. Try me. Exactly how qualified are you?
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On December 29 2016 02:54 Barneyk wrote:
Doesn't Stork have the most Ro 16 placements ever or something like that?
Out of the modern era players, perhaps. I think NaDa has him beat by about four or so. NaDa has the best record for every possible record for every possible bracket that I'm aware of (equaled by some, but not surpassed by), except for the most number of appearances in semi-finals or above, which Jaedong has him beat by one.
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1) "Bisu's upset win was revolutionary due to how difficult it was to defeat sAviOr, and the level of upset was bigger than any other in history."
Is this supposed to represent a claim I made? Because that's not what I said. I gave a hots of reasons why the win was revolutionary, among them the fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals. You turned this into a claim about how difficult to defeat Savior was, then turned that into a statement about his winning streak, and then attacked that point. But it is not the point I made. You did prove that it was not the biggest break of a winning streak, but that doesn't contradict anything I said.
2) "Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game"
Again, is this meant to be something I claimed? I said that the influence someone had on the meta-game does matter. As in "it matters, among other things". And you're right, shaping the meta-game without results doesn't make you a bonjwa. But Bisu didn't have no results, did he? He won several titles and is the most successful Protoss player. So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way. He just did the meta-game reshaping first.
On December 29 2016 03:13 Letmelose wrote:
3) The impact of the tournament win is what defines a player's career and his legacy
Sure, if you want to define players by how you felt. Impact cannot be measured. Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases. You specifically said that Bisu was responsible for the single biggest "turn in the meta-game of BW" in history. I showed you a game that was played before that basically had the same method of play. I also mentioned that sAviOr's contributions towards zerg versus terran are still being copied to this date. Exactly how many top class protosses today do you see playing Bisu's heavy reliance on dark templars and corsairs early on?
"Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases." -- That's true, but do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated? Because if you do, then I think I can easily explain why the Bisu fans you talk to seem so frustratingly stubborn to you: They genuinely did observe an impact.
Also, while it is certainly harder to measure than with a score sheet, you can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game.
About showing games where the same methods were used: This is you reinterpreting history. Of course you will find all the elements of Bisu's play in games that preceded him, but I hope you don't mean to suggest that the day before the finals, everyone knew that you could beat Savior that way. Nobody except Bisu knew it. In hindsight it all seems so obvious, but an hour before the finals started it was anything but obvious. That's another thing you are neglecting by looking at statistics.
4) "Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable."
Again, I hope this is not meant to represent what I said. I said that you can not decide bonjwahood with numbers, not that numbers mean nothing, or even that they mean nothing for bonjwahood. I just said that they alone are not what decides bonjwahood.
I'm not sure what to make of the comments about insider information, what went into making strategies, and me knowing it all. Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no?
You still try to disregard everything you call "feelings" and elevate statistics as the way to decide bonjwahood. I would continue to refuse to reduce the discussion to one about numbers alone. There is a qualitative difference between Bisu's career and Jaedong's, one that is not visible when you look only at what can be easily quantified. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to explain it to someone who didn't watch games from that period. There's nothing forged or fake about it.
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Do people not remember late 2011-2012 when Flash was getting his teeth kicked in by Fantasy and Jangbi in individual leagues.
Didn't he get 2-0'd by Jangbi and then 3-0'd by Fantasy in a super convincing manner too?
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On December 29 2016 03:56 GeLaar wrote:1) "Bisu's upset win was revolutionary due to how difficult it was to defeat sAviOr, and the level of upset was bigger than any other in history." Is this supposed to represent a claim I made? Because that's not what I said. I gave a hots of reasons why the win was revolutionary, among them the fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals. You turned this into a claim about how difficult to defeat Savior was, then turned that into a statement about his winning streak, and then attacked that point. But it is not the point I made. You did prove that it was not the biggest break of a winning streak, but that doesn't contradict anything I said. 2) "Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game" Again, is this meant to be something I claimed? I said that the influence someone had on the meta-game does matter. As in "it matters, among other things". And you're right, shaping the meta-game without results doesn't make you a bonjwa. But Bisu didn't have no results, did he? He won several titles and is the most successful Protoss player. So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way. He just did the meta-game reshaping first. Show nested quote +On December 29 2016 03:13 Letmelose wrote:
3) The impact of the tournament win is what defines a player's career and his legacy
Sure, if you want to define players by how you felt. Impact cannot be measured. Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases. You specifically said that Bisu was responsible for the single biggest "turn in the meta-game of BW" in history. I showed you a game that was played before that basically had the same method of play. I also mentioned that sAviOr's contributions towards zerg versus terran are still being copied to this date. Exactly how many top class protosses today do you see playing Bisu's heavy reliance on dark templars and corsairs early on?
"Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases." -- That's true, but do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated? Because if you do, then I think I can easily explain why the Bisu fans you talk to seem so frustratingly stubborn to you: They genuinely did observe an impact. Also, while it is certainly harder to measure than with a score sheet, you can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game. About showing games where the same methods were used: This is you reinterpreting history. Of course you will find all the elements of Bisu's play in games that preceded him, but I hope you don't mean to suggest that the day before the finals, everyone knew that you could beat Savior that way. Nobody except Bisu knew it. In hindsight it all seems so obvious, but an hour before the finals started it was anything but obvious. That's another thing you are neglecting by looking at statistics. 4) "Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable." Again, I hope this is not meant to represent what I said. I said that you can not decide bonjwahood with numbers, not that numbers mean nothing, or even that they mean nothing for bonjwahood. I just said that they alone are not what decides bonjwahood. I'm not sure what to make of the comments about insider information, what went into making strategies, and me knowing it all. Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no? You still try to disregard everything you call "feelings" and elevate statistics as the way to decide bonjwahood. I would continue to refuse to reduce the discussion to one about numbers alone. There is a qualitative difference between Bisu's career and Jaedong's, one that is not visible when you look only at what can be easily quantified. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to explain it to someone who didn't watch games from that period. There's nothing forged or fake about it.
1) "It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken."
You're the one who brought it up, and I disproved it. Don't put words in my mouth.
2) "At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers"
Did you even watch the game I linked you? You're trying out every single angle out there to make this finals some kind of an act of god that was never even close to being replicated in any shape or form. First you say there "never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW ", and when I show you other examples of just as impactful meta-game shifts (with specific examples of sAviOr's three hatchery build being replicated more closely modern day zergs than Bisu's opening builds in GomTV MSL S1 finals despite the innovation from sAviOr being older), you said it was a "fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals", when similar builds and methods of winning games versus zergs where shown by professional players such as Daezang. The success with which the players carried out these builds are irrelevant in this specific context of you trying to portray the entire protoss race as some bumbling idiots who had no idea how to play the match-up. It's the reason why I said you're shitting on the history of Brood War by allocating all of the credit to Bisu, and ignoring the work earlier generations of protoss by saying they had no idea of how to beat zergs consistently.
3) "So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way."
Nal_rA won several titles, and was the most success protoss of his era. He also reshaped the meta-game by making double nexus more viable with specific cannon placements to maximize the income potential, showed the first double nexus build in PvT, and showed the potential of arbiters in PvT before PuSan optimized it. It's about the sheer level of performance, not the re-shaping of the meta-game.
4)"Do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated?"
When you say stuff like the breaking of sAviOr's win streak was unprecended, or that protoss players didn't even know how to play PvZ before Bisu showed them how. Sure, I think some statements are being fabricated.
5) "You can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game."
I'm not denying the level of impact it had. I'm just saying it was a relatively gradual evolution of the meta-game, not this articifal storyline of there never being such "a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW ", like you mentioned. That's the kind of fabrication I'm talking about. Players such as Daezang were playing a very similar style before Bisu shocked the world, and you've reduced all of his efforts to nothing by saying "nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers".
FanTaSy's late-game mech introduction was a popularized, with SK Terran dying out almost completely in the modern realm of Brood War. What does this level of impact mean in FanTaSy's attempt at being a bonjwa? Does he not get the necessary bonus points because he introduced his new build in the ProLeague? Exactly by how much should we rate this kind of impact in the meta-game shift? Should we be discussing FanTaSy as a potential bonjwa for going to four finals (the same as Bisu), and having introduced a never seen before late-game shift into pure mech play? Or does this only count for players like Bisu? What counts as an impactful revolution? Does the SK Telecom T1 build in PvT created by BeSt count? It ended the enormous efficiency that FD Terran opening had. Should he be rated above other finalists without a famous build? Where do we stop? What about all the builds and innovations that people don't exactly know the origin of? Can we even start to rate anyone without knowing the exact origins and the impact for every single turn in the evolution of the meta-game? Or are we just going to count the ones that are famous like Bisu's?
6) "Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no?"
Because it's enough to decide the first four bonjwas without having that knowledge, and we can just go by the numbers. Once you open the can of worms, that is your own specific criteria, of which tournaments were more impactful, which players innovated by exactly how much, and by which amount it affected the rest of the players being a vital component of who gets to be a bonjwa, you need to know way more than just numbers.
My own criteria suffices with me going through the statistics. Your criteria requires you to not only know the first time the build was televised (which wasn't the case for Bisu, unlike some of the other innovations I've mentioned), who invented it during practice, how much of it was spread due to the success it had on televison, or how much it transfered during practice. Also, you need to know the exact amount of the impact it had, such as the precise number of players who changed their style completely purely because of that player. You're the one who wanted to this to be such a pivotal issue in deciding who gets to be a bonjwa. Surely you don't want to be in the dark about this issue considering how irreplaceable it is. Who was the first player to play the forge expansion into corsair dark templar play on television? Who was the first to do it in practice? How much did it really affect the entire match-up? Are you that confident in knowing not only these questions, but having the answers for every single evolution of the game that was brought onto the scene by players who won multiple championships?
If not. I'm just going to continue saying that you rely solely on your own personal experience of viewing Bisu, and how it made you feel. You're the one who brought up this new criteria, without having the decency to mention players such as TerAtO, or Daezang who played similar builds before Bisu unravelled its full potential, and just put forth blanket statements like Bisu creating the biggest chasm in all of history in terms of meta-game evolution, and no protosses having a clue on how to play the match-up. Not only is that disrespectful to the other players, you don't even bother to think about all the evolution of the meta-game, and how much each of them are worth in the grand scope of things. You just care about the sexy storyline of this new protoss player that just stomped the living hell out of sAviOr, and how it changed history forever. How aware are you of the other major evolutions of the game that did not involve an exciting new player upsetting a known favourite in the finals? How much detail are you willing to go into, just to include this weird criteria of yours? If it is of that much importance to you in terms of deciding who gets to be bonjwa, shouldn't you at least try to research things a little more thoroughly?
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On December 29 2016 05:12 Letmelose wrote:
1) "It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken."
You're the one who brought it up, and I disproved it. Don't put words in my mouth.
4)"Do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated?"
When you say stuff like the breaking of sAviOr's win streak was unprecended, or that protoss players didn't even know how to play PvZ before Bisu showed them how. Sure, I think some statements are being fabricated.
Something certainly has been fabricated here. I did not mention anything about "win streaks" until you did. And even then, I only pointed out that it was you who brought up win streaks.
It seems that we can't agree on who said what, even with a written record in front of us.
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EPT
