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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1281 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:58 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 00:12 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On January 02 2017 23:09 Letmelose wrote:
Bisu's contribution to the match-up of PvZ, while enormous, isn't as large as his contributions in terms of the creation of new build orders. I already discussed this particular topic with another poster, so I won't bother repeating myself. Like I said before, I think saying Bisu was the totality of all PvZ meta-game advancements is a fabrication created by the mythical status of his upset against sAviOr.
Just to clarify, I'm not summarising 'the entirety of the PvZ meta' as just the advent of the Bisu build. Obviously that was one big contribution that he pioneered after Daezang, and they've been a staple of PvZ ever since. But even thereafter, he has been the one pioneering pretty much every minor variation and timing of these. When Bisu was briefly irrelevant to the matchup, the entire collective of other protoss came up with builds like the dragoon bust. While these are innovations, they are not exactly stable platforms from which to play a standard game of PvZ. I don't think it's really that unfair to say that for basically the entirety of his professional career he has been the standard by which the PvZ metagame has been defined. Others may have 'invented' builds/variations/whatever, but it's difficult to pioneer a build if you aren't actually good enough in the PvZ matchup to beat the top zergs with it consistently. As for the rest of that, I pretty much agree. I'm simply not equating how good someone is in a matchup to being better than everyone else at the matchup. I completely agree BeSt's understanding of certain parts of the matchup were better. But it's not like Jangbi's were bad (I mean i don't know, I have no information on whether he even optimises his own variations on build orders). But the fact that Jangbi maybe be bested on aspects of PvT by other players, doesn't take away from how good his PvT was. It is consistent with my very original point. Jangbi's PvT is at times really really good, sometimes the best. But top protosses are much better against terran than they are against zerg. Even being the best, you are going to have more competition in every aspect of PvT. And that he should be BeSted (pun intended :p) in some aspects, doesn't make his PvT less good, it just means other people also have really good PvT. I don't think I've had such a lasting back and forth of opinions in a while. I think we've established pretty much all our opinions on Bisu and the protoss race in general. However, I'll add one more point of contention. You can't credit Bisu for being the totality of all meta-game advancements just because he had the most success with it, and became the standard for the success or failure for any evolutions that happened during his career, If that's the case whoever's the best player at the time becomes responsible for any changes in the meta-game as long as he utilizes it to reasonable success. That's like saying Flash is the totality of the late-game mech meta-game shift despite the fact that FanTaSy created the build by himself during practice, and first implemented it on a televised setting, just because Flash won more games with it, and used it to greater success than any other player. There's value of having success with implementing a certain strategy, and adding fine refinements to it, and another value of creating its idea in the first place. You can't just mix the two, and pretend that the amount of success a player has with a certain innovation gets the right to all the credit of the meta-game change that takes place exactly due to that innovation.
I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it.
I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit.
For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit.
For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done.
It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup.
From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from:
Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well)
Bisu build and it's many variations.
Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons.
Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work.
Neo-Bisu builds
Now.
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On January 03 2017 02:00 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 00:58 Letmelose wrote:On January 03 2017 00:12 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On January 02 2017 23:09 Letmelose wrote:
Bisu's contribution to the match-up of PvZ, while enormous, isn't as large as his contributions in terms of the creation of new build orders. I already discussed this particular topic with another poster, so I won't bother repeating myself. Like I said before, I think saying Bisu was the totality of all PvZ meta-game advancements is a fabrication created by the mythical status of his upset against sAviOr.
Just to clarify, I'm not summarising 'the entirety of the PvZ meta' as just the advent of the Bisu build. Obviously that was one big contribution that he pioneered after Daezang, and they've been a staple of PvZ ever since. But even thereafter, he has been the one pioneering pretty much every minor variation and timing of these. When Bisu was briefly irrelevant to the matchup, the entire collective of other protoss came up with builds like the dragoon bust. While these are innovations, they are not exactly stable platforms from which to play a standard game of PvZ. I don't think it's really that unfair to say that for basically the entirety of his professional career he has been the standard by which the PvZ metagame has been defined. Others may have 'invented' builds/variations/whatever, but it's difficult to pioneer a build if you aren't actually good enough in the PvZ matchup to beat the top zergs with it consistently. As for the rest of that, I pretty much agree. I'm simply not equating how good someone is in a matchup to being better than everyone else at the matchup. I completely agree BeSt's understanding of certain parts of the matchup were better. But it's not like Jangbi's were bad (I mean i don't know, I have no information on whether he even optimises his own variations on build orders). But the fact that Jangbi maybe be bested on aspects of PvT by other players, doesn't take away from how good his PvT was. It is consistent with my very original point. Jangbi's PvT is at times really really good, sometimes the best. But top protosses are much better against terran than they are against zerg. Even being the best, you are going to have more competition in every aspect of PvT. And that he should be BeSted (pun intended :p) in some aspects, doesn't make his PvT less good, it just means other people also have really good PvT. I don't think I've had such a lasting back and forth of opinions in a while. I think we've established pretty much all our opinions on Bisu and the protoss race in general. However, I'll add one more point of contention. You can't credit Bisu for being the totality of all meta-game advancements just because he had the most success with it, and became the standard for the success or failure for any evolutions that happened during his career, If that's the case whoever's the best player at the time becomes responsible for any changes in the meta-game as long as he utilizes it to reasonable success. That's like saying Flash is the totality of the late-game mech meta-game shift despite the fact that FanTaSy created the build by himself during practice, and first implemented it on a televised setting, just because Flash won more games with it, and used it to greater success than any other player. There's value of having success with implementing a certain strategy, and adding fine refinements to it, and another value of creating its idea in the first place. You can't just mix the two, and pretend that the amount of success a player has with a certain innovation gets the right to all the credit of the meta-game change that takes place exactly due to that innovation. I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it. I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit. For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit. For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done. It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup. From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from: Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well) Bisu build and it's many variations. Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons. Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work. Neo-Bisu builds Now.
I think the main issue with your characterization of the PvZ metagame is specifically the lack of knowledge of "Pre-Bisu" builds. This categorization is, honestly, much too broad, and it discredits the inventions which led up to the "Bisu build." The "Bisu Build" really was the accumulation of many builds which other protosses created, like the Forge FE + Building placements done by Nal-Ra, Sair/Reaver by Nal-Ra, the Sair/DT done by Daezang, etc. which LetMeLose showed before.
Arguably, the Forge FE which is the standard way to start off PvZ, followed by the Gate FE (which I don't remember who first used this build) are the more everlasting and stable ways to play PvZ. This was created in the Pre-Bisu era by Nal-Ra, so to say all protosses did was come up with "timing attacks" before Bisu just seems too... dismissive.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1281 Posts
Well my original statement was that Bisu has basically been the entire PvZ metagame for his whole career. While obviously pre-bisu builds is a very long and important phase, it is also before the period I was discussing. Since the start of Bisu's career and the start of the Bisu build have been virtually the same time.
I wasn't dismissing everyone's contribution before him as all ins, but rather everyone else's, to the best of my knowledge, AFTER his career started.
I have to be honest, I do know somewhat of the very long phase of 1 base builds, and a general outline of how all the components of the Bisu build came about, but I didn't know enough to put it in an ordered timeline, and I didn't want to do research to fill in the gaps because it wasn't relevant to the timeframe in question.
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On January 03 2017 02:00 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 00:58 Letmelose wrote:On January 03 2017 00:12 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On January 02 2017 23:09 Letmelose wrote:
Bisu's contribution to the match-up of PvZ, while enormous, isn't as large as his contributions in terms of the creation of new build orders. I already discussed this particular topic with another poster, so I won't bother repeating myself. Like I said before, I think saying Bisu was the totality of all PvZ meta-game advancements is a fabrication created by the mythical status of his upset against sAviOr.
Just to clarify, I'm not summarising 'the entirety of the PvZ meta' as just the advent of the Bisu build. Obviously that was one big contribution that he pioneered after Daezang, and they've been a staple of PvZ ever since. But even thereafter, he has been the one pioneering pretty much every minor variation and timing of these. When Bisu was briefly irrelevant to the matchup, the entire collective of other protoss came up with builds like the dragoon bust. While these are innovations, they are not exactly stable platforms from which to play a standard game of PvZ. I don't think it's really that unfair to say that for basically the entirety of his professional career he has been the standard by which the PvZ metagame has been defined. Others may have 'invented' builds/variations/whatever, but it's difficult to pioneer a build if you aren't actually good enough in the PvZ matchup to beat the top zergs with it consistently. As for the rest of that, I pretty much agree. I'm simply not equating how good someone is in a matchup to being better than everyone else at the matchup. I completely agree BeSt's understanding of certain parts of the matchup were better. But it's not like Jangbi's were bad (I mean i don't know, I have no information on whether he even optimises his own variations on build orders). But the fact that Jangbi maybe be bested on aspects of PvT by other players, doesn't take away from how good his PvT was. It is consistent with my very original point. Jangbi's PvT is at times really really good, sometimes the best. But top protosses are much better against terran than they are against zerg. Even being the best, you are going to have more competition in every aspect of PvT. And that he should be BeSted (pun intended :p) in some aspects, doesn't make his PvT less good, it just means other people also have really good PvT. I don't think I've had such a lasting back and forth of opinions in a while. I think we've established pretty much all our opinions on Bisu and the protoss race in general. However, I'll add one more point of contention. You can't credit Bisu for being the totality of all meta-game advancements just because he had the most success with it, and became the standard for the success or failure for any evolutions that happened during his career, If that's the case whoever's the best player at the time becomes responsible for any changes in the meta-game as long as he utilizes it to reasonable success. That's like saying Flash is the totality of the late-game mech meta-game shift despite the fact that FanTaSy created the build by himself during practice, and first implemented it on a televised setting, just because Flash won more games with it, and used it to greater success than any other player. There's value of having success with implementing a certain strategy, and adding fine refinements to it, and another value of creating its idea in the first place. You can't just mix the two, and pretend that the amount of success a player has with a certain innovation gets the right to all the credit of the meta-game change that takes place exactly due to that innovation. I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it. I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit. For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit. For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done. It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup. From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from: Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well) Bisu build and it's many variations. Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons. Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work. Neo-Bisu builds Now.
So you mention the Bisu build, which is a build first utilized by Daezang. Read this post (you'll see that Bisu himself seems to be affected by Daezang's build, because he was going for Citadel of Adun before the games played by Daezang, and going for Stargate first builds only after Daezang utilizes his build to great success against multiple zergs in the ProLeague, and MBC Survivor Tournament)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/517651-asl-ro16-day-4?page=29#564
The Neo Bisu build, which uses zealots instead of dark templars has indeed been optimized by Bisu, but to say that he was the totality of the entire evolution of the match-up, when TerAtO, PuSan were doing various variations of the "Bisu build" in 2005~2006 before it was truly optimized to great success by Daezang on Blitz, is like saying Jaedong was responsible for the invention of the three hachery lair into five hatchery build because he had by far the most success with it as well as being one of the first to use it.
http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100207595478
http://blog.naver.com/oroper/70139896008
Forge expansion was a thing before Bisu came round. Forge expansion into Stargate was a thing before Bisu came round. Daezang optimized the build by being able to pressure the zerg early on with both corsairs and dark templars, which reduced the need for mass cannons, and allowed for a faster explosion of gateways. This is the core concept of the Bisu build. Bisu used the build first shown by Daezang to great success, then added his own flavour to it throughout the years by implementing and optimizing certain details that were shown before years ago (corsairs into speedlot pressure was not a new concept), with the core concept of map control through corsairs, and pressuring the zerg as much as possible being prevalent idea. That core idea was initially first used to great success by Daezang, which is why Bisu's claim of being the totality of the entire modern meta-game taking away Daezang's main (and probably only) claim to fame. It's a robbery.
Sure, Bisu was always on the fore-front of the evolution since he rose to fame, but the initial seeds that revolutionized the match-ups were the fruits of the innovations of numerous protoss players, with Daezang being the most obvious candidate for the title of the creator for the Bisu build.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1281 Posts
Same reply, I'm not dismissing anything before the Bisu build, he obviously had no affect on the PvZ meta before he started playing professionally. Keywords 'for his whole career'.
Also wanted to add, I think you are trying to attribute to me the equating of bringing about the Bisu build as being the be all and end of of PvZ, modern or otherwise. That's not what I've been saying.
In fact, in my very original post, I said to the effect that Bisu build isn't the solution to PvZ, Bisu is.
It's not 'now that we have the Bisu build, he has solved PvZ forever, horray and rejoice'. Quite the opposite. PvZ has still sucked for the majority of protoss, during and after Bisu's career. Yes the build is standardised now, but it's really just been Bisu going out there winning PvZs, it was still pretty terrible for protoss as a whole, Bisu build or not.
It's been more of a case of 'he's the only guy actually doing well in the matchup, lets just do what he does'
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On January 03 2017 03:40 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Same reply, I'm not dismissing anything before the Bisu build, he obviously had no affect on the PvZ meta before he started playing professionally. Keywords 'for his whole career'.
Also wanted to add, I think you are trying to attribute to me the equating of bringing about the Bisu build as being the be all and end of of PvZ, modern or otherwise. That's not what I've been saying.
In fact, in my very original post, I said to the effect that Bisu build isn't the solution to PvZ, Bisu is.
It's not 'now that we have the Bisu build, he has solved PvZ forever, horray and rejoice'. Quite the opposite. PvZ has still sucked for the majority of protoss, during and after Bisu's career. Yes the build is standardised now, but it's really just been Bisu going out there winning PvZs, it was still pretty terrible for protoss as a whole, Bisu build or not.
It's been more of a case of 'he's the only guy actually doing well in the matchup, lets just do what he does'
Totally agreed. I just got confused with some of the wording, it's true, Bisu's innovations, while not necessarily the most ground breaking changes that everybody else could then implement for automatic easy games, had subtle nuances that only he could fully utilize to full potential.
Peak ELO, while an incredibly biased for the modern era due to the massive influx of ProLeague games, and increased implementation of best of five series even in the lower rounds such as the round of eight of the MSL, is not that bad a measure of a player's peak performance during the modern era (where all the players benefited from the inflation of the number of games, starting from the 2008/2009 Season).
Highest PvT peak ELO: JangBi (2260)
2nd highest PvT peak ELO: Stork (2259)
Highest PvP peak ELO: Bisu (2267)
2nd highest PvP peak ELO: BeSt (2252)
Highest PvZ peak ELO: Bisu (2327)
2nd highest PvZ peak ELO (in the modern era only, Nal_rA's era came before the massive inflation of the ProLeague schedule): Stork (2209)
The only other match-up that had such massive difference of peak ELO ratings between players of the modern era was Jaedong's ZvZ (2341) to sAviOr's ZvZ (2219), or EffOrt's ZvZ (2213), if you think sAviOr's peak was too heavily influenced by the numbers from his old records. That was how further ahead of the rest of the field Bisu's PvZ was. Even Flash failed to create such massive chasms of peak ELO ratings confined to a specific match-up, although his numbers are all off the walls as well, the massive difference between Bisu's PvZ and other modern day protoss player's PvZ was almost unparalleled.
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Does anyone have specific insight on map selection process for ASL?
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EPT
