EPT
Afreeca Starleague Season 2
Afreeca Starleague Season 2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpDsafx.png)
Casters & Hosts
Streams
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW)
twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis)
ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream
[ASL2] Ro16 Day 4
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW) twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
 someone needs to post polls and PM them to me when the event is done. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 27 2016 15:19 Crisium wrote: Yeah, as much as I'd like to see Rain make it, we need Terrans. Go Flash and Sea! Thoughts alike. Flash and sea fighting! | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Let's go Terran! Let Sea get past the ro16 for once. Yum Bo Sung fighting! I love all the players but we really need some Terran. 2 Terran 2 Zerg 4 Toss isn't bad. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On December 27 2016 16:13 valaki wrote: My heart says Flash and Movie but my mind says Flash and Sea, we need terrans. your mind is correct too ^^! | ||
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Genjimaru
Canada515 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 15:19 Crisium wrote: Yeah, as much as I'd like to see Rain make it, we need Terrans. Go Flash and Sea! This. Even though I have a feeling it's going to be Flash and Rain advancing. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
BisuDagger: I'm extremely sick and just spent 9 hrs on the road, so I will not be casting. I'm passing out, but if someone can relay this to the day 4 LR i would appreciate it. Does this mean no BD/FlashFTW cast, or rather a solo FlashFTW cast?  Oh and get better, BD. Sounds like Xmas was very unkind to you. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 17:06 [[Starlight]] wrote: This in from BisuDagger, from the ASL Day 3 thread: BisuDagger: I'm extremely sick and just spent 9 hrs on the road, so I will not be casting. I'm passing out, but if someone can relay this to the day 4 LR i would appreciate it. Does this mean no BD/FlashFTW cast, or rather a solo FlashFTW cast? Oh and get better, BD. Sounds like Xmas was very unkind to you. I would be doing this but im stuck in san fran for now cause parents didnt give me a path down to san diego where all my equipment is :/ looks like were stuck with tastosis again for tonight. Also Flash and Rain to advance, and with every group captain eliminated, the trend looks worrisome for sea | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On December 27 2016 18:54 Katsuge wrote: still waiting for the korean yt stream to be up...hmm why don't you watch English channel? | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
no FlashFTW & co casting | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
i belong to the old school group who always watched it in full korean commentary when there was no english commentary and i can understand builds and pushes without needed english explanation :3 | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 18:59 TanGeng wrote: no FlashFTW & co castingawwww a fan <3 thanks for the support and love. Bisudagger and I will be back for the round of 8 i promise <3 | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
Been looking forward to this. | ||
sixfour
England11061 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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GTR
51393 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:06 FlaShFTW wrote: Sea's already smiling and shaking his hands. He's already done and nervous. Let's go flash. He does really look nervous, hah. Poor guy. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
TaekBangLeeSsang let's go | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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GTR
51393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
FlaSh Blue T7 | ||
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RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
I bet he regrets it now | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
I'm surprised he didn't get an academy sooner knowing Flash had a starport. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:23 BLinD-RawR wrote: Gonna give it a yes, because of Flash being Flash | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:23 thezanursic wrote: Didn't Sea pick Flash for his grp? I bet he regrets it now They're friends, IIRC. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
i mean pretty much everyone is a friend in brood war right now  | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:23 thezanursic wrote: Didn't Sea pick Flash for his grp? I bet he regrets it now It is not as bad as when Stork picked Jangbi, his own teammate, and lost. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:26 FlaShFTW wrote: i mean pretty much everyone is a friend in brood war right now I'm sure somebody doesn't like somebody. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:28 usopsama wrote: It is not as bad as when Stork picked Jangbi, his own teammate, and lost. i remember hiya beating jaedong in a round of 16 for the osl and proceeded to knock him out lol | ||
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sasvorti00
Hungary90 Posts
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:28 [[Starlight]] wrote: I'm sure somebody doesn't like somebody. who do you think? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:29 neilmellor wrote: The usual sloppy Sea, only decent player against Zerg. Sea's TvP  | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Pick a rivalry with at least one bm player in it. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
Rain 7 White | ||
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Elentos
55458 Posts
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:23 thezanursic wrote: Didn't Sea pick Flash for his grp? I bet he regrets it now Although I don't have any solid evidence or know this for sure. They are indeed friends and by picking him early on for his group its less likely they would eliminate each other until much later on. A possible explanation for what would seem like a crazy decision . Only in the group stage could he lose to flash and still make it through. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:34 Akara12345 wrote: I remember the old broadcasts had resources and unit counts. What happened? It is more exciting to watch without them. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:34 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Although I don't have any solid evidence or know this for sure. [Flash and Sea] are indeed friends and by picking him early on for his group its less likely they would eliminate each other until much later on. A possible explanation for what would seem like a crazy decision . Only in the group stage could he lose to flash and still make it through. Could well be. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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GTR
51393 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
I know he was okay back in 2011-2012, but he is primarily an SC2 player still | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
And I kinda bought into it too. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
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zimms
Austria561 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:44 thezanursic wrote: Is it possible people overhyped Rain? I know he was okay back in 2011-2012, but he is primarily an SC2 player still its because rain has really good pvt in a 2 terran group is why we hypd him to get out. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
Sea during group selection. "I'm going to avenge Terror." Sea just joined "Beagles". It's Terror's crew. This is the reason why Sea's viewership has gotten big. Terror told him to pick Flash. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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anandworld
24 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:44 [[Starlight]] wrote: Hmm... Tastosis talks up Rain to high heaven before the match ('cuz... SC2, ZOMG!!!!)... and then, he loses. And I kinda bought into it, too. I mean, Rain (aka Sun) and Soulkey were good A teamers in Proleague. They're good at Brood War because they were good at Brood War. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:46 MaGic~PhiL wrote: wow Rain was ahead.. still lost inferior micro in reaver fights is how that happens to you | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:46 classicyellow83 wrote: Sea during group selection. "I'm going to avenge Terror." Sea just joined "Beagles". It's Terror's crew. This is the reason why Sea's viewership has gotten big. Terror told him to pick Flash. Well, he sure didn't avenge Terror, lol. Perhaps he could avenge Terror on whomever is Terror's fashion consultant. That 'shirtless pimp' look was painful.  | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:46 FlaShFTW wrote: its because rain has really good pvt in a 2 terran group is why we hypd him to get out. I'd love to see him advance behind Flash, I really like his story line, but as somebody who doesn't watch SC2, he still has to convince me | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:46 dRaW wrote: how were first 2 games? Just got home T_T Both of them watch if you have time for me. Sea tried some cute stuff which didn't really get enough damage done | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:45 zimms wrote: I just watched Rain go down on Afreeca. Hahahaha :D good one | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:49 thezanursic wrote: I'd love to see him advance behind Flash, I really like his story line, but as somebody who doesn't watch SC2, he still has to convince me his PvT is amazing. his other matchups are kinda lacking. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:26 ~chut~ wrote: Impressive from Flash. He defended the first attack very well, taking minimal damage. He looks in great shape Well, to be fair Sea losing his last Goliath to his own last tank shot stopped his push altogether. That way he only had damaged tank against a wraith. If he had moved his goliath just a little bit away it would have been a tank and a goliath against a wraith. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
Britney: "Everyone else is picking Rain" Horang2: "Because of his PvT and PvZ, people are assuming he's going to win. His PvP is suspect." Horang2: "Im guessing 3gate robo from movie and 1 gate nexus Rain. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:46 anandworld wrote: I mean, Rain (aka Sun) and Soulkey were good A teamers in Proleague. They're good at Brood War because they were good at Brood War. Yup. Tasteless/Artosis/Rapid really push this whole "You gotta respect this guy in BW 'cuz he was good in SC2!!!" thing. And it's just kinda bullpuckey. The skills don't really transfer over all that much... you gotta be a great BW player to be a great BW player. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:51 FlaShFTW wrote: his PvT is amazing. his other matchups are kinda lacking. He played a good game against effort, so... I think he has a lot of potential. He already showed that in the last days of pro BW. But he switched from SC2 just recently so he isn't quite there yet I think. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:53 [[Starlight]] wrote: Yup. Tasteless/Artosis/Rapid really push this whole "You gotta respect this guy in BW 'cuz he was good in SC2!!!" thing. And it's just kinda bullpuckey. The skills don't really transfer over all that much... you gotta be a great BW player to be a great BW player. Didn't really notice that by Tasteless, neither sunday nor today. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
And flash snipes every OBs | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:02 sixfour wrote: Two obs snipes already 3 | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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12312312333112
11 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
someone gif/clip that | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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12312312333112
11 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:07 usopsama wrote: Oh shit. Movie is really ahead. ????????? what? | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:07 usopsama wrote: Oh shit. Movie is really ahead. He really isnt i promise you. He is playing very well though. Its a close game. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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12312312333112
11 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
too ez for flash | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 19:56 Miragee wrote: Didn't really notice that by Tasteless, neither sunday nor today. They were doing it today re: Rain, and have done it in the past too, more generally. | ||
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
Officially Bisu, Flash, Stork and Jaedong all in Ro8 | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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ramask2
Thailand1024 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:02 sixfour wrote: Two obs snipes already I love the scan and obs snipe. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
Because I don't see Jaedong having a profile | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:13 ramask2 wrote: Since Jaedong took second place in his group, does this mean he'll get matched up with either Bisu, Flash or Stork next? Hot damn. I think so, too bad. Really wanted all of them in the semis. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:12 [[Starlight]] wrote: They were doing it today re: Rain, and have done it in the past too, more generally. Artosis and Rapid did. Tasteless didn't. Well he kind of did but it was more like agreeing with what Artosis said. He didn't say it specifically himself. And to be fair to them, they also mentioned that Rain was up and coming in the last days of BW but switched to SC2 before he could really become one of the greatest. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:14 thezanursic wrote: Is TLPD being updated? Because I don't see  Jaedong having a profileNot possible. How could that possibly be the case. And it's not. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:14 thezanursic wrote: Is TLPD being updated? Because I don't see Jaedong having a profile Jaedong | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
But that's probably it. Don't see Sea making beating both Movie and Rain (though I'd love to be wrong... we need Terrans ). | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:17 [[Starlight]] wrote: A Terran finally makes it into the Ro8. But that's probably it. Don't see Sea making beating both Movie and Rain. ya, pretty sad :/ | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:13 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash is being too modest. How so? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:15 TanGeng wrote: Not possible. How could that possibly be the case. And it's not. Sorry was checking a few weeks ago, he didn't have a profile at the time, although he had already played a few games at that point, don't be too condescending. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:18 FlaShFTW wrote: so how is the round of 8 being dispersed again? it was first of A plays second of B and vise versa? and then those two groups get placed on opposite sides of the bracket? They are gonna do some klnd of random selection to pick which group plays which after the games are over. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
I think Sea is totally capable of beating both of those players. Far from a sure thing but he has it in him. | ||
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:13 ramask2 wrote: Since Jaedong took second place in his group, does this mean he'll get matched up with either Bisu, Flash or Stork next? Hot damn. vs Stork is the still possible, while Bisu and Flash are currently too strong for him. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:18 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: Artosis's fellating of Rain is obnoxious Perhaps he owes him money. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:18 thezanursic wrote: Sorry was checking a few weeks ago, he didn't have a profile at the time, although he had already played a few games at that point, don't be too condescending. What? | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:19 FlaShFTW wrote: lol tastosis doesnt know rain is a PvT sniper haha is was rain a pvt sniper ?i remember proleague days and he was pretty good in pvz.even winning jaedong. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
"There's so many paths in SC2, that gas steal reminds me of SC2, yadda yadda yadda." 0_o | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:22 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: is was rain a pvt sniper ?i remember proleague days and he was pretty good in pvz.even winning jaedong. hes like 7-1 right now in post kespa and his PvT was his best matchup easily in kespa | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:19 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I think Sea is totally capable of beating both of those players. Far from a sure thing but he has it in him. I dunno tbh. Movie is still quite capable as we can see and Rain is no slouch in PvT. Sea has an uphill battle ahead of him | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
if Sea over extends himself he and his army is cleared he will lose the game. The way Rain is playing sea would do better to 4 fact into 3 base. To push aggresively is a mistake. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:23 FlaShFTW wrote: hes like 7-1 right now in post kespa and his PvT was his best matchup easily in kespa im not sure ,watching this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/697_Rain im more impressed by the oponents he won in pvz.most of the terran oponents are weak in TvP except Mind but he was in a big slump at the time. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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FlaShFTW
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[[Starlight]]
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TheFoReveRwaR
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On December 27 2016 20:27 Miragee wrote: Artosis, it's not crazy to see 4 facs right now. 6 would be another story. Not true...it was a very fast timing of 4 fact. He cut all scvs to fact up at that timing. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49782 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:28 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Anndddd as I say that Sea overextends...lost too many tanks. Big mistake. yup... | ||
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usopsama
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usopsama
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Miragee
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On December 27 2016 20:29 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Not true...it was a very fast timing of 4 fact. He cut all scvs to fact up at that timing. Eh? Maybe I'm living too much in the past but the 4 fac timing was pretty normal back in the day to settle up for a third expo. | ||
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TanGeng
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FlaShFTW
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
He cant easily pressure. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
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bovienchien
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tictoc
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TheFoReveRwaR
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12312312333112
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usopsama
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Ej_
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On December 27 2016 20:35 12312312333112 wrote: I don't know this map too well but it seems heavily protoss favored. I can't really see an endgame push here for T. And the arbiters just bypassed all the static d sea set up. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/407_Benzene sub 50% | ||
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tictoc
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usopsama
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FlaShFTW
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TheFoReveRwaR
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usopsama
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Ej_
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TanGeng
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Right on. | ||
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12312312333112
11 Posts
Interesting. Looks bad for T but maybe because of the choke between the production and the other bases terran can cut it off like sea is doing now. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
gg | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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FlaShFTW
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Miragee
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BLinD-RawR
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Katsuge
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[sc1f]eonzerg
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nurle
Norway308 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
*Artosis cries bitterly* | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:35 12312312333112 wrote: I don't know this map too well but it seems heavily protoss favored. I can't really see an endgame push here for T. And the arbiters just bypassed all the static d sea set up. Basically every protoss on afreeca said that is toss favored in PvT except for Bisu. | ||
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:39 nurle wrote: Holy shit rain playing awful. And Artosis, Please.. Enough of the sc2 talk. This is BW Its easy to criticize him for that but remember he needs to appeal to crossover fans as well. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:40 classicyellow83 wrote: Basically every protoss on afreeca said that it's toss favored in PvT except for Bisu. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:38 12312312333112 wrote: Interesting. Looks bad for T but maybe because of the choke between the production and the other bases terran can cut it off like sea is doing now. benzene is a good map for terrans. the forward and close mineral expansion is a good staging point and any map that gives terrans a pretty good and easy forward 3rd mineral only is good for terran. also the way the bases are set up really allows terrans to death ball push and then kill off multiple bases at oncewhen they separate a few tanks out . | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:40 classicyellow83 wrote: Basically every protoss on afreeca said that is toss favored in PvT except for Bisu. Lets face it though, Bisu probably knows best And in my own uneducated opinion. It seems good for T for me. Terran has multiple timings to hit the choke north/or south of the natural at a 3 protoss base timing. Like Sea tried to do this game but Rain was too strong, because he made the correct decision of massing off 2 base. | ||
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12312312333112
11 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:40 FlaShFTW wrote: benzene is a good map for terrans. the forward and close mineral expansion is a good staging point and any map that gives terrans a pretty good and easy forward 3rd mineral only is good for terran. also the way the bases are set up really allows terrans to death ball push and then kill off multiple bases at oncewhen they separate a few tanks out . Makes sense. It seems like if protoss holds the center and the bridges it could just deny any terran push, but maybe there are enough defensible bases that the terran is happy chilling. Until carriers anyway. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
Flash vs Bisu on Benzene (Spon Match) Flash wins against carriers........... | ||
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12312312333112
11 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What i dont understand is why Rain didnt punish the early fourth expansion by Sea.doing this this game pretty much over.also to me Benzene is very complicate to control vs mass recalls.but it neither it was Rains plan. He chose to all-in the main instead, which definitely is questionable. Denying the expansion like you suggest would probably have been more valuable. | ||
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12312312333112
11 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:45 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash: "I don't understand why all protosses don't go carriers every game on benzene. It's too good on this map" Flash vs Bisu on Benzene (Spon Match) Flash wins against carriers........... Yeah but that's Flash... against Bisu's carriers. Easily the worst carrier user out of the good protosses. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What i dont understand is why Rain didnt punish the early fourth expansion by Sea.doing this this game pretty much over.also to me Benzene is very complicate to control vs mass recalls.but neither was Rains plan. Of course I dont know for sure but I would imagine this would result in Sea stuffing the protoss main and wiping out his gates. Then of course Rain could counter the main and hope to break but thats a very all in situation Rain probably wanted to avoid. I have to say Movie looks much stronger than Rain despite the hype from the casters. He should do very well against Sea. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Should be good. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: What i dont understand is why Rain didnt punish the early fourth expansion by Sea.doing this this game pretty much over.also to me Benzene is very complicate to control vs mass recalls.but neither was Rains plan. Huh? He didn't have the army to do so, no? On December 27 2016 20:45 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash: "I don't understand why all protosses don't go carriers every game on benzene. It's too good on this map" Flash vs Bisu on Benzene (Spon Match) Flash wins against carriers........... Mindgames. xD Well, and Bisu can't do carriers for shit. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:45 classicyellow83 wrote: Flash: "I don't understand why all protosses don't go carriers every game on benzene. It's too good on this map" Flash vs Bisu on Benzene (Spon Match) Flash wins against carriers........... flash goliaths do extra damage  also bisu's carriers suck. theres a reason when flash vs bisu in the allstars match on benzene where they race switched, flash went carriers and was basically taunting bisu like "this is how you use carriers" | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:46 12312312333112 wrote: Yeah but that's Flash... against Bisu's carriers. Easily the worst carrier user out of the good protosses. He's won all carrier games this month except against Flash. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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usopsama
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:49 thezanursic wrote: Well this gives me flashbacks back to 2011-2012 season where Sea lost to like 5 Protoss in a row He just won though! | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada1999 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Great game so far, except TvP of course | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:48 classicyellow83 wrote: He's won all carrier games this month except against Flash. Yes, because Bisu is very far ahead in skill... | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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12312312333112
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FlaShFTW
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Id say its an even game actually. | ||
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usopsama
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Ej_
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FlaShFTW
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usopsama
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Sniping that pylon powering the center gateway at the very last second turned a possible disaster into a victory. | ||
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2Pacalypse-
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FlaShFTW
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corumjhaelen
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BigFan
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Letmelose
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corumjhaelen
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FlaShFTW
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12312312333112
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TheFoReveRwaR
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Another favorable engagement for terran. This is over imo. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
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TanGeng
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FlaShFTW
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12312312333112
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usopsama
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TheFoReveRwaR
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:03 usopsama wrote: Wow. Sea is definitely winning, even though he is really sloppy. No offense but hes really not sloppy this game...i dont understand where thats coming from. Both players played well but Sea was very very strong. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TanGeng
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classicyellow83
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FlaShFTW
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FlaShFTW
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On December 27 2016 21:04 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: No offense but hes really not sloppy this game...i dont understand where thats coming from. Both players played well but Sea was very very strong. sea's early game could have been more solid. otherwise it was perfect from sea. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:04 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: No offense but hes really not sloppy this game...i dont understand where thats coming from. Both players played well but Sea was very very strong. Agreed. Sea wasn't sloppy at all this game. Maybe a little bit in the beginning with his marine micro. But after that he played very solid. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Way to go, Sea. Two Terrans in the Ro8.  | ||
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BlackJack
United States10317 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:04 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: No offense but hes really not sloppy this game...i dont understand where thats coming from. Both players played well but Sea was very very strong. I think it's from all those moments where his tanks had no vision and allowed zealots/goons to attack freely. Still, it was a rather intense match so I can overlook that | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:06 FlaShFTW wrote: sea's early game could have been more solid. otherwise it was perfect from sea. His marine micro wasnt flash level but in the end there was very little damage done from the early zealots. He recovered very nicely from the initial pressure. | ||
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bovienchien
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TanGeng
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TT1
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[sc1f]eonzerg
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BigFan
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FlaShFTW
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TT1
Canada9990 Posts
edit: ah guemchi | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
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thezanursic
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thezanursic
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Lucumo
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usopsama
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Grettin
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Be good matchups, be good... | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Protoss being on each side is the best result. | ||
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TanGeng
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Grettin
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Miragee
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On December 27 2016 21:15 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Lmao...did they only put protoss in there? That were all the first places in the groups... | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:16 Miragee wrote: That were all the first places in the groups... Haha I know , I was joking. On the other hand Bisu vs Sea is fantastic. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:16 TanGeng wrote: Wow. Hero is probably screwed. Nah, 1. and 2. of the same group can't play each other in the Ro8. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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RHoudini
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Qikz
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Grettin
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thezanursic
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TanGeng
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Miragee
8466 Posts
kk :D | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
herO drew into best | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
Then for sure it will be Flash vs Bisu finals. As Best seem to be the only scary person besides them. | ||
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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FlaShFTW
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classicyellow83
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Oh shit | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:18 usopsama wrote: Flash vs Jaedong is absolutely possible. guemchi can't play stork | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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Qikz
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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TanGeng
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classicyellow83
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:20 Qikz wrote: Wow, well we can't have a TBLS Ro4! Could never happen. Jaedong could not play Best again. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:20 TanGeng wrote: Could never happen. Jaedong could not play Best again. Aha, forgot they were in the same group. | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
lmfao tasteless | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
herO is a ZvP specialist, sadly I think both Bisu and BeSt will lose to herO, then herO will proceed to lose horribly versus flash. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:21 usopsama wrote: I am more hyped for this tournament than all SC2 tournaments that ever existed, combined. Amen. Not that sc2 is bad...its just not the same as the magic of brood war. | ||
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amorpheus
Bulgaria2144 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:19 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ill say this right now. Call me crazy. I think hero is the most unhappy person here. And I think Best is the dark horse of this tourney. Best has looked absolutely amazing. JD is not too strong these days, but Best surely looks pretty solid. I do have the feeling that hero might take him down though, Best's pvz is not his strongest. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:21 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: bo3s or bo5? Probably Bo3 in Ro8 and Bo5 ind Ro4 and finals. Could be wrong here though. | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:21 Miragee wrote: Bisu > Sea Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong I think you'll be pretty safe here. Your predictions are what I'm HOPING for. Flash vs Jaedong Semi would be holy fuck, but a zvz final would be lmao anticlimactic, as well. Jaedong vs Bisu final please? | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:21 Miragee wrote: Bisu > Sea Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong Pretty much this Then herO>Bisu Flash>Jaedong Finals: Flash 3:0 herO | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:21 Miragee wrote: Bisu > Sea Best < hero Flash > Guemchi (which means Guemchi will win, as always if I predict against him) Stork < Jaedong I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
Best after the round 8 draw: "Last season round 16. This season round 8, I'll go round 4 next season." :sigh: | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:24 bovienchien wrote: who know girl that did lottery ticket? what's her name? please! lol | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:23 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: I think you'll be pretty safe here. Your predictions are what I'm HOPING for. Flash vs Jaedong Semi would be holy fuck, but a zvz final would be lmao anticlimactic, as well. Jaedong vs Bisu final please? Jaedong might take out Stork, but he probably won't take out Flash. As for Bisu. I don't even think he gets past herO. herO is pretty favored versus Bisu. If herO got Flash, Jaedong or Sea in his bracket, no chance he gets to the finals, but since he probably has two protoss in a row, I see him getting to the finals and then getting absolutely brutalized by Flash | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:24 classicyellow83 wrote: LOL Best after the round 8 draw: "Last season round 16. This season round 8, I'll go round 4 next season." :sigh: No way, Best is the most impressive player ive seen recently...yep call me out on that I dare you keyword: recently. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i47.tinypic.com/6emzv8.png) She was one of the OSL boothgirls. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Bisu, Best, Flash, Stork Finals: Bisu v Flash Winner: Flash | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg.best's PvZ against someone who is actually good at ZvP right now is laughable. hero is going to smash best | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
BeSt > HerO Flash > Guemchi Stork > Jaedong --- Flash > Stork Bisu > BeSt --- Bisu > Flash | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:22 thezanursic wrote: herO vs Flash finals, Flash wins 3-0 herO herO is a ZvP specialist, sadly I think both Bisu and BeSt will lose to herO, then herO will proceed to lose horribly versus flash. Well, Bisu looked pretty on point in his match against hero. I think hero got a chance against both but they won't be a walk-over, either. Both can beat him and I would probably favour Bisu over hero. Guemchi might pull a Guemchi and beat Flash. xD | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:22 classicyellow83 wrote: Guemchi's stream is so funny. He's about to cry. LOL I love all the tombstones being spammed on his stream. He seems devastated | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:26 FlaShFTW wrote: best's PvZ against someone who is actually good at ZvP right now is laughable. hero is going to smash best Can't wait to see Either way I love knowing its against two very good players. What if I'm right though and Best wins?! Does anyone else think Best will win? | ||
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:23 Miragee wrote: Probably Bo3 in Ro8 and Bo5 ind Ro4 and finals. Could be wrong here though. entire bracket will be bo5 | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:27 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: I love all the tombstones being spammed on his stream. He seems devastated He really is totally fucked though lol. Flash is so much more skilled he could play a totally safe game and still come out on top. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:27 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: I love all the tombstones being spammed on his stream. He seems devastated LOL Flash's stream chat is being spammed with "Congrats on advancing to round 4" HAHAHAHAHAA | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Bisu takes Sea. But if Sea plays like he did tonight, it'll be a workout for Bisu. Best vs Hero looks like a tossup. Both look really good. Flip a coin. Flash takes GuemChi. Dig you Guem, but shit just got real. Stork takes Jaedong. Yeah, I said it. JD doesn't look quite 100% yet, and Stork's been the silent killer. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg.Sea will beat Bisu? Sea has a history of losing to Bisu. As for herO in November on Fish he was 6-3 vs BeSt and 7-3 vs Bisu, he is a PvZ specialist after all with a 70% wr over the last 3 years and a sub 50% in both ZvZ and ZvT http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/82_by.hero In the last few years in Tournaments at least Bisu and Sea played 8 games, Bisu is currently 7-1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sospa&type=players&id=125&part=games&vs=108&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2013&from_month=11&from_day=13&to_year=2016&to_month=12&to_day=4&action=Update herO getting to the finals is the most likely outcome, however Bisu can always upset him. On the other side of the bracket Flash is the most likely to get to the finals. The sad thing is, while herO is likely to show us good ZvPs, if he gets to the finals and plays Flash, we are likely up for a very one sided finals. Bisu vs Flash finals, would be much better in that regard | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:24 TanGeng wrote: Bisu is still really good on the PvZ Of course he is, but not as good as his PvT or PvP HerO consistantly beats Bisu, if they face in the Ro4, herO is more likely to advance | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:31 FlaShFTW wrote: Everyone should go to Guemchi's stream right now its hilarious. hes rewatching his pick and crying lol Am digging the sad, introspective music he's playing, lol. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:30 [[Starlight]] wrote: Nice matchups. Hmm... gonna say: Bisu takes Sea. But if Sea plays like he did tonight, it'll be a workout for Bisu. Best vs Hero looks like a tossup. Both look really good. Flip a coin. Flash takes GuemChi. Dig you Guem, but shit just got real. Stork takes Jaedong. Yeah, I said it. JD doesn't look quite 100% yet, and Stork's been the silent killer. Stork has always been historically weak to ZvP. I should say thats just a feeling of someone whos watched him for 10 years. Doesnt mean he wont be ready for zerg sometimes when he needs to be. But in the past zerg has been a big problem for stork. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
Best < hero Flash < Guemchi Stork > Jaedong Sea < hero Guemchi > Stork hero < Guemchi | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:31 thezanursic wrote: Sea will beat Bisu? Sea has a history of losing to Bisu. As for herO in November on Fish he was 6-3 vs BeSt and 7-3 vs Bisu, he is a PvZ specialist after all with a 70% wr over the last 3 years and a sub 50% in both ZvZ and ZvT http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/82_by.hero In the last few years in Tournaments at least Bisu and Sea played 8 games, Bisu is currently 7-1 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sospa&type=players&id=125&part=games&vs=108&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2013&from_month=11&from_day=13&to_year=2016&to_month=12&to_day=4&action=Update herO getting to the finals is the most likely outcome, however Bisu can always upset him. On the other side of the bracket Flash is the most likely to get to the finals. The sad thing is, while herO is likely to show us good ZvPs, if he gets to the finals and plays Flash, we are likely up for a very one sided finals. Bisu vs Flash finals, would be much better in that regard I respect your opinion because you may very well be right. My insights are based off of recent games. Just looking at the players current form. I'm excited to see how they might surprise me Excellent research though and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right. But I also wouldn't be surprised if I was as well. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:26 PVJ wrote: Ro4: Bisu, Best, Flash, Stork Finals: Bisu v Flash Winner: Flash On December 27 2016 21:26 Qikz wrote: Bisu > Sea BeSt > HerO Flash > Guemchi Stork > Jaedong --- Flash > Stork Bisu > BeSt --- Bisu > Flash Why is everyone predicting BeSt>herO. Bisu might beat herO, but herO has both Bisu's and BeSt's number http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/16_BeSt Currently 7-6 in PvZ, small sample size, soo nothing particularly conclusive http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/82_by.hero ZvP 137-56 (70.98%) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516873-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-nov #2 Hero ZvP: 57-25 (69.5%) Protoss: Best 6-3, Bisu 7-3, Guemchi 5-1 | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:36 Peeano wrote: Bisu < Sea Best < hero Flash < Guemchi Stork > Jaedong Sea < hero Guemchi > Stork hero < Guemchi YES! | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:36 Peeano wrote: Bisu < Sea Best < hero Flash < Guemchi Stork > Jaedong Sea < hero Guemchi > Stork hero < Guemchi no. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Im sorry but definitely no | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:35 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Stork has always been historically weak to ZvP. I should say thats just a feeling of someone whos watched him for 10 years. Doesnt mean he wont be ready for zerg sometimes when he needs to be. But in the past zerg has been a big problem for stork. If JD was at 100%, I'd pick him. But he doesn't seem to be quite there yet. Best took him down twice. So, not a fluke. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:26 usopsama wrote: She was one of the OSL boothgirls. Give me her name please and her twitter or same that! | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:36 Peeano wrote: Bisu < Sea Best < hero Flash < Guemchi Stork > Jaedong Sea < hero Guemchi > Stork hero < Guemchi 'Fear the Chi', lololol. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:37 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I respect your opinion because you may very well be right. My insights are based off of recent games. Just looking at the players current form. I'm excited to see how they might surprise me Excellent research though and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right. But I also wouldn't be surprised if I was as well.It can go either way, just don't be surprised when herO takes numbers. Bisu and herO faced each other in two finals. in 2014 Bisu barely managed to edge out 3-2, generally herO won longer games, Bisu won shorter more aggressive games http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/9th_SonicTV_Starleague In 2015 Bisu and herO faced in another finals, this time herO smashed Bisu 3:0, Bisu didn't even stand a chance http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/11th_SonicTV_Starleague I'm not saying this is definitive, I'm just saying you should never discount herO's ZvP. herO is primarily a ZvP specialist, his ZvT and ZvZ are VERY average, but he is a God of ZvP. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:41 bovienchien wrote: Give me her name please and her twitter or same that! You are fucking creepy. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:41 [[Starlight]] wrote: If JD was at 100%, I'd pick him. But he doesn't seem to be quite there yet. Best took him down twice. So, not a fluke. My overall theme has been that Best took him down because best is playing like a beast right now pz. Some seem to strongly disagree but that's my stance. Stork has been great at pvp and pvt but I think best is the better pvz player. The ro8 will show the truth | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:26 usopsama wrote: She was one of the OSL boothgirls. Extremely unfair disadvantage for the player. How are you supposed to concentrate with her in the booth ??? | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
Yep pretty creepy... | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:43 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: My overall theme has been that Best took him down because best is playing like a beast right now pz. Some seem to strongly disagree but that's my stance. Stork has been great at pvp and pvt but I think best is the better pvz player. The ro8 will show the truth Indeed. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:41 bovienchien wrote: Give me her name please and her twitter or same that! www.afreecatv.com She stream on afreeca. She plays hunters. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
I am really thank you a lot! | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:42 thezanursic wrote: It can go either way, just don't be surprised when herO takes numbers. Bisu and herO faced each other in two finals. in 2014 Bisu barely managed to edge out 3-2, generally herO won longer games, Bisu won shorter more aggressive games http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/9th_SonicTV_Starleague In 2015 Bisu and herO faced in another finals, this time herO smashed Bisu 3:0, Bisu didn't even stand a chance http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/11th_SonicTV_Starleague I'm not saying this is definitive, I'm just saying you should never discount herO's ZvP. herO is primarily a ZvP specialist, his ZvT and ZvZ are VERY average, but he is a God of ZvP. Id like to point out that I actually picked hero to beat bisu when they played in the ro16. Bisu simply outclassed him specifically in the early game at a huge margin. That game wasnt even close. So this time around I can't think Bisu won't do the same again. 2015 is not 2016(17)! Bisu is not the same player. Hero is very very good though I won't deny. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Id like to point out that I actually picked hero to beat bisu when they played in the ro16. Bisu simply outclassed him specifically in the early game at a huge margin. That game wasnt even close. So this time around I can't think Bisu won't do the same again. 2015 is not 2016(17)! Bisu is not the same player. Hero is very very good though I won't deny. Bisu performed phenomenally in that game, but I still have my doubts about a Bo5. To me it seems like Bisu has the advantage in the early to midgame, but in the late game he just gets outclassed by herO. That's my feeling at least, and I think Bisu feels the same considering how much he has been rushing and cheesing. Don't get me wrong, I want Bisu to win that series, but I think herO has the edge, I would much prefer a Bisu vs Flash finals than a herO vs Flash finals. My brain says herO, my heart says Bisu | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:38 thezanursic wrote: Why is everyone predicting BeSt>herO. Bisu might beat herO, but herO has both Bisu's and BeSt's number http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/16_BeSt Currently 7-6 in PvZ, small sample size, soo nothing particularly conclusive http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/players/82_by.hero ZvP 137-56 (70.98%) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516873-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-nov #2 Hero ZvP: 57-25 (69.5%) Protoss: Best 6-3, Bisu 7-3, Guemchi 5-1 First of all, I'm a bit biased. I also just really liked Best's game in the two rounds thus far. He had a well balanced strong arsenal of builds and there's that he can macro like no one else which could keep him always slightly just in game for long enough to surprise everyone. By the way, any news about the map pool? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:44 [[Starlight]] wrote: Extremely unfair disadvantage for the player. How are you supposed to concentrate with her in the booth ??? I guess this is the reason why sAviOr fell from grace. Too much action. ![[image loading]](http://mpmedia86.cyworld.nate.com/thumbnail/2007/03/17/22/B_20070317225507822300860015.jpg) Ah fuck it. Here's the link. http://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=194537 | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:44 [[Starlight]] wrote: Extremely unfair disadvantage for the player. How are you supposed to concentrate with her in the booth ??? The other player gets one, too. I liked the other boothgirl much more. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:48 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Id like to point out that I actually picked hero to beat bisu when they played in the ro16. Bisu simply outclassed him specifically in the early game at a huge margin. That game wasnt even close. So this time around I can't think Bisu won't do the same again. 2015 is not 2016(17)! Bisu is not the same player. Hero is very very good though I won't deny. u will be surprised how often can u see a zerg player getting owned by this on stream vs 1 gate expand even vs no names ^^.this build is not so easy to deal with if u want to play a macro game.you either commit to lings and most likely fail /win or semi defend it with the exact lings you need then transition to 4 hatch hydra +1 hydra hold zealot push add +2 hatcheries ,or you can just die to zealots +1.u cant play the classic 3 hatch spire into 5 hatcheries cuz your eco was totally broke by making more lings,no adding the drones,late lair,sair will be extremely powerful .or you can rush to lair but then u will be low in drones and everything will be a mess. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:52 Letmelose wrote: I guess this is the reason why sAviOr fell from grace. Too much action. ![[image loading]](http://nbamania.com/board/icon/member_image_box/18186/1183129250.jpg){kind=icon} Denied | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:52 PVJ wrote: First of all, I'm a bit biased. I also just really liked Best's game in the two rounds thus far. He had a well balanced strong arsenal of builds and there's that he can macro like no one else which could keep him always slightly just in game for long enough to surprise everyone. By the way, any news about the map pool? I'm a Bisu fan first, and a herO appreciator second, I just think that realistically speaking herO has the edge. I think that Bisu is a far better player, but their weaknesses and strengths just fall into herO's favor. Bisu seems to be stronger in PvT and PvP lately, and a bit weaker in PvZ while herO is a ZvP specialist and is historically very average at the other two match ups. I definitely want Bisu to win, I just think we should be realistic about his chances. If I were to call chances I'd say 60/40 for herO, but Bisu can definitely pull it off | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:56 thezanursic wrote: I'm a Bisu fan first, and a herO appreciator second, I just think that realistically speaking herO has the edge. I think that Bisu is a far better player, but their weaknesses and strengths just fall into herO's favor. Bisu seems to be stronger in PvT and PvP lately, and a bit weaker in PvZ while herO is a ZvP specialist and is historically very average at the other two match ups. I definitely want Bisu to win, I just think we should be realistic about his chances. If I were to call chances I'd say 60/40 for herO, but Bisu can definitely pull it off no matter what Bisu will be always favorite vs zerg.but if there is someone that can totally cause troubles is hero. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: no matter what Bisu will be always favorite vs zerg.but if there is someone that can totally cause troubles is hero. I respect your opinion Eon, but remember how herO totally raped Bisu in SSL11? Or how in November he had a 7-3 record versus Bisu? | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:54 usopsama wrote: The other player gets one, too. I liked the other boothgirl much more. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dM13Ry8.jpg) I have always liked the one on the left more. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:41 bovienchien wrote: Give me her name please and her twitter or same that! You might like this then..... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://down.humoruniv.org/hwiparambbs/data/pds/hu_1297666941_836716282.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://mblogthumb1.phinf.naver.net/20110712_248/nobodya543_1310463116293DvbcW_JPEG/i67uy.jpg?type=w2) | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
I was expecting to see screenshots of when JD dressed up as a girl here for some reason. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 27 2016 22:23 Qikz wrote: I was expecting to see screenshots of when JD dressed up as a girl here for some reason. Trust me.... there is a reason for that...... | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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arachnidd
211 Posts
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friendbg
Bulgaria576 Posts
On December 28 2016 01:05 arachnidd wrote: Any vods up yet? Nothing in ASL's youtube channel yet | ||
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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anandworld
24 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:31 FlaShFTW wrote: Everyone should go to Guemchi's stream right now its hilarious. hes rewatching his pick and crying lol The cry of despair. | ||
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Virtuoso
United States119 Posts
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
On December 28 2016 01:18 2Pacalypse- wrote: VODs have been posted in our Small VOD Thread by the incredible Peeano for over two hours already: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20?page=56#1112 yall are the best thanks | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On December 28 2016 01:18 2Pacalypse- wrote: VODs have been posted in our Small VOD Thread by the incredible Peeano for over two hours already: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20?page=56#1112 Sadly, Afreeca is unwatchable due to lag. Also has no video quality settings that I can see. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 27 2016 23:59 reminisce12 wrote: is there a reason why gsl twitch doesnt archive the bw streams? Maybe more revenues from youtube views? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Not only in his first push but also when sea tried to elevator to flashes base, imagine if he had two dropships instead of one. Now i dont know the timing of the starport so perhaps the elevator would start very late but if it wouldnt, two dropships could have been really deadly. Wasnt impressed at all in the flash vs protoss mu either, he loses his armee with his first big push quite heavy. I actually think protoss was at a quite big advantage there.. Could be wrong but instead of spreading the units of toss he should have just went for a big decisions instead of scattering across the map with them. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
On December 28 2016 01:56 quirinus wrote: Sadly, Afreeca is unwatchable due to lag. Also has no video quality settings that I can see. The Tastosis afreeca VOD is smooth for me. (The title was not updated from previous day 3) As for Korean VODs you'll just have to be patient. Perhaps - if you're lucky - the full VOD doesn't lag as much for you. Edit: Tastosis is the only reliable VOD atm. AfreecaTV is failing me really hard today. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On December 28 2016 02:30 Foxxan wrote: oh damn flash could have lost that game vs sea Not only in his first push but also when sea tried to elevator to flashes base, imagine if he had two dropships instead of one. Now i dont know the timing of the starport so perhaps the elevator would start very late but if it wouldnt, two dropships could have been really deadly. Wasnt impressed at all in the flash vs protoss mu either, he loses his armee with his first big push quite heavy. I actually think protoss was at a quite big advantage there.. Could be wrong but instead of spreading the units of toss he should have just went for a big decisions instead of scattering across the map with them. wth are you saying. Flash had to forcibly push out with very vulture heavy army because that map is notorious for being very hard to block recalls. Flash was gonna lose that army in the first place | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On December 27 2016 20:41 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Lets face it though, Bisu probably knows best And in my own uneducated opinion. It seems good for T for me. Terran has multiple timings to hit the choke north/or south of the natural at a 3 protoss base timing. Like Sea tried to do this game but Rain was too strong, because he made the correct decision of massing off 2 base. lol.... bisu always TROLLS with these talking about balance. he joked around man.. all progamers were saying it was such a toss map because its so hard to block recalls and hard to get a third fas. not to mention insanely huge map | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:23 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I actually think Sea will beat Bisu. Best will beat hero. Yes Flash will beat Guemchi despite your voodoo tricks And yes Jaedong will beat stork. But stork is totally capable of winning, unfortunately he always plays so safe vs zerg. He's too easy to predict and routine is a huge advantage to zerg.what are you basing this off from? progamers laugh at best's bad pvz and hero always smiles when he gets to face best because its so easy | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands4803 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
Shes so cute >\< also that rack though. I have new waifu crush | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 28 2016 05:34 FlaShFTW wrote: Shes so cute >\< also that rack though. I have new waifu crush Actually she is mine. Bo5 for her honor? | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 28 2016 05:39 SCC-Faust wrote: Actually she is mine. Bo5 for her honor? no shes mine fuck off. I dont have my setup rn. When i get back home in a few days we will grudgematch the shit outta each other | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 28 2016 07:13 Starlightsun wrote: RETURN OF THE BONJWAS Technically, isn't Flash the only bonjwa present? Though Bisu and Stork are probably the two best Protosses of all-time, and one could understand if someone wanted to think of Jaedong as 'the uncrowned bonjwa' or something (plus probably the best Zerg of all-time). | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 28 2016 07:24 [[Starlight]] wrote: Technically, isn't Flash the only bonjwa present? Though Bisu and Stork are probably the two best Protosses of all-time, and one could understand if someone wanted to think of Jaedong as 'the uncrowned bonjwa' or something (plus probably the best Zerg of all-time). None of TBLS is a bonjwa. Bonjwa: Someone who is unanimously a clear favorite against any opponent possible. TBLS are by definition not bonjwas because they had each other, who were always able to take a game from each other. Flash was not a bonjwa because still no one expected him to roflstomp Jaedong, although he may have been the favorite (but it was not clear). Savior was a bonjwa until FBH/Bisu. Bonjwa is not a synonym for 'best player'. Why would there even be a special term for that? If you don't like that, then don't use the term bonjwa and use 'best player' instead. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On December 28 2016 07:43 duke91 wrote: None of TBLS is a bonjwa. Bonjwa: Someone who is unanimously a clear favorite against any opponent possible. TBLS are by definition not bonjwas because they had each other, who were always able to take a game from each other. Flash was not a bonjwa because still no one expected him to roflstomp Jaedong, although he may have been the favorite (but it was not clear). Savior was a bonjwa until FBH/Bisu. Bonjwa is not a synonym for 'best player'. Why would there even be a special term for that? If you don't like that, then don't use the term bonjwa and use 'best player' instead. Flash was not only a bonjwa, he was way more dominant than any other bonjwa. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
On December 28 2016 07:27 Miragee wrote: Not this discussion again, pls. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 28 2016 07:43 duke91 wrote: None of TBLS is a bonjwa. Bonjwa: Someone who is unanimously a clear favorite against any opponent possible. TBLS are by definition not bonjwas because they had each other, who were always able to take a game from each other. Flash was not a bonjwa because still no one expected him to roflstomp Jaedong, although he may have been the favorite (but it was not clear). Savior was a bonjwa until FBH/Bisu. Bonjwa is not a synonym for 'best player'. Why would there even be a special term for that? If you don't like that, then don't use the term bonjwa and use 'best player' instead. lol. Flash was sooo good that he was nicknamed God. I think that by itself states a lot about who flash is and the comparison to previous bonjwas. Also, please drop this or move it to another thread. Let's keep this for day 4 of Ro16. | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bonjwa Repent. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Bonjwa was a meme that was often used within the Korean internet realm without having all that baggage it carries now. It was used for July on various Korean communities such as FighterForum. After playing second fiddle to iloveoov in 2004, July struggled to prove his superiority against NaDa and GoRush in early 2005, but after his triumph in EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague, some of his fans tried to annoint him as "Park-Bonjwa", as the clear cut best player of his era. However, his nickname did not stick, and was met with backclash from other fans who said July wasn't worthy of a loftly title such as bonjwa. This was when sAviOr was starting his insane MSL streak of five consecutive finals as the best player in the scene. People often jokingly called him a "Banjwa" a play on words of bonjwa and the Korean word for half, referencing his constant failures in the OGN StarLeague, which had more prize money and prestige back then. After he finally qualified for the OGN StarLeague, his domination in every other highly viewed platforms of competition (MSL, ProLeague, and SuperFights) made him a clear candidate as someone who could be annointed as a "bonjwa". The term Lim-Lee-Choi was all the rage back then, taking the surnames of BoxeR, NaDa, and iloveoov as the lineage of both the best three terrans, the three most successful players in terms of achievement, and players who each dominated their respective eras. NaDa, although past his prime, was making a resurgence of sorts late into his career, and had just won his third OGN StarLeague, and made another finals against sAviOr. It was the battle of old versus new. KeSPA ranked one (due to the higher number of points KeSPA used to give for OGN StarLeague) versus KeSPA ranked two player (sAviOr fans were furiously that he could dominate every other realm, yet was rated second). The most successful OGN StarLeague player at the time in terms of number of championships won, versus the most successful player of the MSL-era (NaDa was slightly more accomplished if we count the KPGA Tournament days). The most successful terran of all time versus the new hope for zerg, with the map pool favouring terrans (not for the first time or by the most insane amount, but the hype of the circumstances heightened the balance discussion). It was insane in the Korean communities. It was the clash of ideals. OGN fans versus MBC Game fans. Terran fans versus zerg fans. The fans of the old guard versus the fans of the newer generation. People would wager all of their online pride for one of the most anticipated, and most discussed finals in history. As you all know. sAviOr won the match convincingly, and for a week before his fall to Bisu, Korean communities named it the "Seven days of absolute diplomatic immunity". sAviOr was now free from all his critics, and everybody were either silent in mourning or embraced their new "bonjwa" with open arms as sAviOr fans ran wild with praises and nicknames for their new god. sAviOr had done it. This was back when only four players had more than three OGN/KPGA Tournament/MSL titles. A new bonjwa lineage of "Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma" was created, and due to the similarities between NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr had in their careers (three MBC Game hosted tournament wins before establishing their dominance with a OGN StarLeague win), sAviOr was now in the realm of not only the GOAT discussion in terms of career achievements, but players who dominated the scene to an insane degree in terms of win rates during their peaks. People would come up with statistics for annual win percentage, and compare the win rates of BoxeR from 2001, NaDa from 2002, iloveoov in 2003, and sAviOr in 2006. It looked right. It felt right. Everybody was comfortable with the new bonjwa lineage, and what the title of bonjwa meant. Now comes Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang. As you all know. Bisu was the earliest to break out amongst the four, and his gorgeous looks and his most dramatic surprising finals win against sAviOr (just a week after everybody annointed him as the indisputed bonjwa, and retrospectively grouped him with the lineage of Lim-Lee-Choi as the four bonjwas of Starcraft) made him the new superstar of the modern era. Everybody wanted him to be the bonjwa. It was no different from Korean or English communities. Protoss fans finally thought they had a bonjwa title in sight. Fans of Bisu desperately wanted Bisu to succeed. Even the media hyped him, despite being mediocre in the ProLeague, and overall win percentage. His MSL finals streak was eerily reminiscent of the previous bonjwas, and his fans were now sure he would get his third MSL title, and OGN title to secure his place in history forever. He would go into a slump after failing in his third MSL finals, and getting thrashed in the semi-finals of OGN StarLeagues, but his fans would still be harping on about bonjwa for years to come, diluting the terminology of the word. Along comes Jaedong, and wins the Golden Mouse in the shortest period of time (610 days since his debut OGN StarLeague win), and with his MSL win, he had a weird composition of achievements for the fans who were more used to the opposite composition of three MSL titles and a single OGN StarLeague title. Fans of Jaedong wanted to crown him as the fifth bonjwa, but was met with heavy backclash from Bisu fans (who were locked in a battle with Jaedong fans who were almost as numerous and loud as the Bisu fans, Flash never had that much fandom in Korea) who were bitter from the rejection of bonjwahood for their handsome prince. Jaedong fanbase claimed that Jaedong already achieved as much as the previous bonjwas, and the time frame was similar to sAviOr who also needed two years to complete his entire set of four titles. Bisu fans spewed all the arguments they've heard from Bisu-doubters back at Jaedong, saying his string of finals was broken in between, his overall win percentage wasn't as high, and his failure to lead Hwaseung Oz to victory against SK Telecom T1, losing multiple times to FanTaSy in what looked to be his limitation after practicing both for Bisu and FanTasy, was indicative that Jaedong wasn't that much further ahead of his competition like the past bonjwas were. Jaedong fans retorted by saying it didn't even matter if Jaedong wasn't recognized as a bonjwa, as he accomplished so much already at a young age, and he would go on to achieve more than the bonjwas. After Jaedong's fifth title, it looked to be the case. Then Flash suddenly started to go on his unreal streak that was unmatched before or since, and stomped Jaedong from ever winning another title by defeating him in three different finals (two MSL finals, one OGN StarLeague finals). After reaching every single OGN StarLeague, and MSL finals. Winning the ProLeague as the best player, even overcoming the superior man power of SK Telecom T1 (Bisu, FanTaSy, and BeSt who was utilized specifically as the Flash sniper) unlike Jaedong, and winning the WCG 2010 in the off-season, Flash had done it all, and silenced all critics. Nobody, not even Jaedong or Bisu fans could retort what Flash fans had to say. By this point, it felt odd. Bonjwa used to be the highest title a Starcraft player could achieve, but now was relegated to a terminology of players who dominated an era. Bonjwas were no longer synonymous with both the most dominating and most successful Starcraft players of all time. Flash fans accepted the title of bonjwa, but wanted more. Bonjwa was a title that lesser mortals such as Bisu, or Jaedong tried, and failed to get. Flash fans wanted to separate themselves from the rest of the field after a season of the most dominating performance ever seen from a professional player. They annointed Flash as "God", and would scoff at the other fanbase, saying you can go fight for the title of bonjwas between yourselves, our player had reached god-status. Bonjwa was a terminology that was born, and died with sAviOr. The lineage was created retrospectively after sAviOr fans got excited that sAviOr was the sole zerg representative in a lineage of the four most dominating, and sucessful players in history thus far. Bisu fanboys tried their hardest to water down the criteria to include their superstar into the line-up, and when met with heavy backlash, raised the criteria to some insane level of domination (citing Jaedong's failure at Arena MSL unlike sAviOr who managed to overcome map imbalance, citing his failures in the ProLeague finals versus SK Telecom T1, and conveniently leaving out the fact that sAviOr actually was prone to even bigger failures of failing to qualify for all OGN StarLeague during his two year reign apart from his final attempt) in order to prevent Jaedong from getting the title of bonjwa after he achieved four titles within a similar frame of time to sAviOr's reign. Then Flash came along and achieved that insane level of criteria of needing to dominate his opposition across all platforms, winning all the necessaary titles, and having an insanely high win percentage while doing so. Flash achieved what Bisu fans created to ensure that if Bisu couldn't get the title of bonjwa, no one could. Flash fans felt unsatisfied with just being grouped with the other bonjwas, after such a perfect season of domination, and prefered the title of "God" over "Bonjwa", and other fans could do nothing but nod in approval after such a performance. This is the story of bonjwa. It begins and ends with sAviOr. It was used by Bisu fans to promote their idol, and twisted and turned its meaning so that Jaedong couldn't get it. Flash fans got themselves a new nickname to promote their idol, and the terminology of bonjwa was mostly abandoned as a relic of the past since then. I don't know what happened to the terminology after it caught on like wildfire in the English speaking realm, but this is how the story unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 28 2016 12:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Great post and probably the best to sum it all up. This needs to go somewhere in the Bonjwa page in the liquipedia. Seconded. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 28 2016 11:26 Letmelose wrote: Bonjwa story telling time. Bonjwa was a meme that was ... unfolded in Korea, the birth place of the terminology. This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote: This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. yeah its in the current liquipedia article for bonjwa as one of the links at the bottom. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
1) sAviOr's streak from UZOO MSL ~ GomTV MSL S1 (681 days) Overall record: 148-66 (69.2%) Individual league performance: MSL 1st place (x3), OGN StarLeague 1st place (x1), MSL 2nd place (x2) in 11 individual leagues EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 40 UZOO MSL: 1st So1 OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers (UZOO spans for about two OGN StarLeagues due to its extensive double elimination format and a BO7 finals) CYON MSL: 2nd Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 40 Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Failed at the offline qualifiers Pringles MSL S1: 1st Pringles MSL S2: 1st Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: Failed at the offline qualifiers Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1st GomTV MSL S1: 2nd ProLeague records from this period: 22-11 (66.7%) (SKY 2005 ProLeague R1~SKT 2006 ProLeague R2) (4th most wins during this time frame) SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: 2-2 (25th most wins) SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 4-5 (22nd most wins) SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 8-2 (3rd most wins) SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 8-2 (2nd most wins) 2) Bisu's streak from GomTV MSL S1~Avalon MSL (his final round of eight in an individual league) (716 days) Overall record: 145-90 (61.7%) Individual league performance: MSL 1st place (x3), MSL 2nd place (x1), OGN StarLeague round of 4 (x2) in 12 individual leagues Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: Round of 42 GomTV MSL S1: 1st GomTV MSL S2: 1st Daum OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 GomTV MSL S3: 2nd EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 3rd GomTV MSL S4: Round of 32 Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 4 EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 Arena MSL: Round of 32 Incruit OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 Clubday MSL: 1st ProLeague records from this period: 22-23 (48.9%) (SKY 2006 ProLeague R2 ~ Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague) (don't know how many players I need to go through until I reach Bisu's win number) SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 5-4 (12th most wins) (only four games were played during Bisu's individual league streak) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 6-7 (29th most wins) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 4-3 (40th most wins) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 6-9 (30th most wins) Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 53-14 (3rd most wins) (only five games were played during Bisu's individual league streak) 3) Jaedong's streak from EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague ~ Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague (694 days) Overall record: 230-98 (70.1%) Individual league performance: OGN StarLeague 1st place (x3), MSL 1st place (x1), MSL 2nd place (x1), MSL round of 4 (x1) in 12 individual leagues GomTV MSL S3: Failed at the offline qualifiers EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 1st GomTV MSL S4: 1st Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 36 Arena MSL: 2nd Incruit OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers Clubday MSL: Round of 16 Lost Saga MSL: Round of 32 Batoo OGN StarLeague: 1st Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st Avalon MSL: Round of 4 ProLeague records from this period: 87-39 (69.0%) (SKY 2007 ProLeague R2 ~ Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague) (Most wins during this time frame) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14-6 (4th most wins) (not including the play-off performances) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 11-7 (13th most wins) Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 54-21 (2nd most wins) (not including the play-off performances) As you can see, sAviOr and Jaedong had pretty comparable results in individual leagues, although sAviOr played in one less tournament (11) due to the enormously intensive scheduling of UZOO MSL compared to both Bisu or Jaedong (12). sAviOr and Jaedong both enjoyed success in other minor leagues and showmatches. sAviOr won some WEF Invitationals, and some SuperFights versus NaDa. Jaedong won GomTV Classic S1, and GomTV showmatch versus Bisu. Jaedong was superior in the ProLeague, although ProLeague wasn't as important back before the scheduling inflation in 2007. Their overall win percentage doesn't differ that much. This is in contrast to Bisu, who was incredibly mediocre in the ProLeague during his peak performance in individual leagues, as well as only managing to win two titles versus the four won by sAviOr and Jaedong in a similar time frame. Jaedong was slightly worse than sAviOr in individual leagues, but was slightly better in the ProLeague and other leagues (represented Korea twice in a row in WCG 2008/2009, won GomTV Classic Season 1, and won the GomTV showdown match versus Bisu). It's not such a big gap in domination as people make it out to be. sAviOr simply flopped when the limelight wasn't on him (didn't make it to televised rounds in OGN StarLeagues, dropped out early in the ProLeague), whereas Jaedong's failures were on big stages such as the Arena MSL, and the Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague Grand Finals. Their actual level of domination wasn't that different. They both won the same number of major trophies, Jaedong slightly better in minor tournaments (even if the landscape of minor tournaments was different, WCG Korea happened every year, and sAviOr never qualified for WCG during his prime), as well as being the superior player in the ProLeague (had the best individual ProLeague record during his prime, as well as winning Shinhan 2007 ProLeague, and coming second in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague, sAviOr had one year of being mediocre, and one year of being great in the ProLeague, but couldn't carry his team to victory even once). sAviOr's domination was more visceral due to his ground breaking meta-game revolution, his tendency to do either really well, or just drop out really early without being noticed (it's more noticeable to get swept 0-3 in a BO5 in the finals, than it is to drop out 1-2 to a random nobody in the offline qualifiers), the hype surrounding him at the time, and the repainting of his absolute domination with rose tinted glasses (some people make it out as if he was beasting everybody and nothing could stop him, not even unbalanced maps, and his every waking moment was a replica of his legendary Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 run) has made sAviOr one of the more overrated players in history. His domination at the time was indeed mind boggling, and it was such a breath of fresh air to see a zerg player doing what terran bonjwas like NaDa or iloveoov did to the scene previously. However, from a pure statistical, and objective point of view, his domination over his fellow peers was never as astounding as his legend would have you believe. Bonjwa is an outdated term that was created when sAviOr was the shit, and everybody had no choice but to accept his domination after finally winning the OGN StarLeague. What people felt about his domination is irrelevant. He was just as prone to failure as the other greats that followed him. He was not immune. Only Flash during his one year of absolute domination was immune. Maybe BoxeR in 2001 also, but the landscape of the competitive realm was way too different back then, and I wasn't there to witness it fully. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 28 2016 12:25 BigFan wrote: This sounds really familiar to something I read a while ago. Did you post this story on TL before by any chance? Because I distinctly recall the end with Saviour part of it etc... Either way, great read overall as usual. I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
On December 28 2016 14:12 Letmelose wrote: I argued against Bisu fanboys on Korean and English forums alike for years, I think you can search for my posts on the subjects with overlapping stories and statistics even back then. With the increased importance of ProLeague in the 2007 Season onwards, my main argument was that Bisu's record there was way too mediocre, and his individual league performances was not "complete" as he only won two out of the four that the previous three bonjwas had won a similar time frame. BoxeR was extempt because KGPA Tournaments/MSL didn't exist back in his prime, and considering he got to all three OGN StarLeague finals (winning two), won the first KPGA Tournament and won other individual leagues such as Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG 2001, it's likely he would have won more if there were six OGN StarLeague/MSL that year instead of just three OGN StarLeagues, considring he won three of the five largest non-OGN StarLeague tournaments in terms of overall prize pool in 2001 (he took part in four, and got to the round of four in the one minor tournament he failed to win). It was infuriating to see Bisu fanboys pulling off mental gymnastics just to qualify Bisu as a bonjwa, saying all he needed was one more OGN StarLeague win whenever he managed to to qualify past the group stages in the OGN StarLeague. I argued that Bisu's "reign" of domination was actually way too long, and fans were just giving him indefinite time frame to complete his "prophecy" that winning three MSL titles into a OGN StarLeague triumph that was needed, when in fact his first MSL title was in the 2006 Season, and by now, we were actually discussing the overall career achievements of Bisu rather than his attempt at bonjwahood at that point. I was also pointing out his mediocre results in the ProLeague, which he rectified in 2008/2009, but by then he was no longer making past the round of 16 in individual leagues. I didn't mind so much that Jaedong wasn't named bonjwa (the terminology and the mythology behind it didn't fit with the times anymore, and felt more at place with sAviOr and should have died with his legacy in my opinion), and thought that Jaedong would go on to achieve greater things than the past bonjwas, but Flash suddenly had the perfect storm of having the performance of his lifetime in the upcoming year, and had some map superiority over Jaedong in some of their finals (which I was extremely salty about back then, but I think Jaedong actually had the upper hand over Flash even on terrible maps like Othello way back when he was the more skilled player, so it wasn't just about the map pools). Then Jaedong finally stopped being godlike and had areas of the game where he was evidently lacking (such as late-game management versus late-mech) compared to the Woongjin zergs towards the end of professional Brood War. Flash was the bonjwa Bisu-fanboys tried to claim sAviOr was, and therefore a level above the domination Jaedong showed (which disqualifies Jaedong as a bonjwa, just like Bisu was disqualified beforehand). In actuality, Flash at his prime was more dominant than any other player in history, and sAviOr and Jaedong actually have comparable levels of overall performance in their two years of peak performance, even though I must admit sAviOr did it with more style. But style is for suckers anyhow, in the end, these are professional competitors, not performance artists, and in that specific context, Jaedong was more or less achieved what sAviOr achieved as a bonjwa in the same time frame (four major individual titles), with a slightly better win rate due to the ProLeague inflation, and his superior performance on that particular platform. That's why I don't like to use the terminology anymore. It's outdated, and it feels icky. It felt more right in 2007. You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On December 28 2016 22:18 GeLaar wrote: You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant. Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like. The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories. Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative. I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate. All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate". With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada". With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well. Unfortunately for Jaedong, Savior had already claimed the unforeseen racial dominance storyline, so Jaedong couldn't have that. There was never a sexy or defining finals win in spite of the fact that almost all his finals wins were over "brand name" players. Some of this was timing:
If you go with the "we didn't think it was possible" criteria I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing Jaedong had was his ZvZ dominance. It really is amazing how great he was at ZvZ. But ZvZ is the least popular matchup in the game. Also, in a weird way I think Savior being so mediocre at ZvZ even during his peak, combined with his one pre-Bisu finals loss being a ZvZ finals, furthered the impression in everyone's minds that ZvZ just doesn't matter as much. Jaedong also had the 0-1 comeback to 3-1 thing, but it was more a statistical fluke and nice microcosm of his mental fortitude, than something mindblowing. At the end of the day, Jaedong didn't really do anything "we didn't think was possible" that was also "interesting" (thus disqualifying his ZvZ dominance). Instead, he was "merely" a really fucking great player who put up insane stats in both individual leagues and Proleague, while also winning stuff like a GomTV league and a WCG. And that's why Jaedong vs Bisu was ever even a debate, because as great as Bisu was (and don't get me wrong, Bisu is great. He is the greatest Protoss player of all time without any debate ... in fact I'd say Bisu is farther ahead of any other P than Jaedong is ahead of any Z or Flash is ahead of any T), Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too. If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure. | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like. I meant "irrelevant" in the overall context of his achievements. I remained a Bisu fan throughout the drought, and suffered because of his losses, but I don't think it is something to disqualify him from the title of bonjwa, if that is being discussed. On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories. I completely agree that the word has a lot to do with emotion, which is why all attempts to settle the question of who is a bonjwa by using statistics are bound to fail. I think that some people try it anyway because they feel that the numbers favour their view, or that it disqualifies someone else's. But Letmelose is wrong about style being for suckers, and he's wrong to argue about bonjwahood based on numbers. The whole reason why players have fans even when they're not at their peak and not at the top is that people care about more than score and the number of titles. On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative. I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate. All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate". With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada". I agree with your point about Jaedong being a raw stats guy. But you'd have to disregard a lot more than "narrative" in order to claim that Jaedong had a better career than Bisu, because Bisu had impact. As did Savior. This is just my personal experience, but when Savior was at his peak, I felt like BW might actually become boring to watch, because this guy would never be stopped. He made the game seem inherently unbalanced, and I hated him. I don't think Jaedong's "reign" ever felt like that to me. On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well. If you cared about being honest, you wouldn't insinuate that his looks had anything to do with it. All of the things you mentioned about him would have been enough to establish his legacy, without the looks. On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too. This is only true if by "objectively" you mean "as measured by statistics". I think that Jaedong is probably the best Zerg player to ever play the game, but in the grand scheme of things, had there not been a Jaedong, the history of professional BW would have looked roughly the same as far as match-up balance and strategy are concerned. That is a statement you can not reasonably make about either Bisu or Savior. On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure. There's nothing wrong about being biased in favour of one player, and "fanboy" is just name-calling meant to delegitimise someone's point. I don't think you're a fanboy. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 28 2016 22:18 GeLaar wrote: You seem strongly biased against Bisu, and in favour of Jaedong. There's nothing wrong with that (I have a positive bias towards Bisu), but it's still worth pointing out that you are telling the story in a one-sided way. I found the write-up really interesting, though. But regarding your use of statistics: I'm not sure if some fans were trying to argue for bonwjahood with statistics or the duration of the achievements, but listing Bisu's win against Savior as nothing more than an MSL title completely disregards what he accomplished. Bisu revolutionized PvZ by winning what everyone thought would be an unwinnable match for him, and in the most spectacular way. There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals. To change everything about what people thought was possible in BW, in the span of two hours, is something only one player has ever achieved. His slump after 2008 or his "mediocre" Proleague stats are irrelevant. I'm triggered by the approach some admirers of Bisu take when the subject of their hero is at hand, so mind my slight frustrations. First of all. Watch this game. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100197083287 Forge expansion was used as early as 1999, by SSamJang. Nal_rA popularized it with his building placement enhancement that allowed it to be utilized more efficiently. PuSan, TerAtO, and Daezang were all using variations of forge expansion into early corsairs into ground troop usage, some as early as 2005. The game I have linked shows that Bisu's revolution, while incredibly noteworthy, was not that much different from the other protosses who had similar approaches to the match-up. The meta-game change was already at the works with or without Bisu. Bisu optimized it and showed the world how to utilize it on the biggest stage possible, but to say that the change was so dramatic that it cannot be compared with any other meta-game evolutions is really pushing it, and just reeks of the typical Bisu rose tinted glasses fanboyism I have grown to resent over the years. There were plenty of revolutionary changes to the game. They just never happened in a finals of a major tournament. iloveoov's expansion before building acedemy, that was a game changer. sAviOr's three hatchery play versus terrans, and his usage of hive units and buildings, that was game changing. PuSan's optimization of mass gateways and arbiter usage, that was revolutionary at the time also. FanTaSy's late-mech transition changed the landscape of the terran versus zerg match-up. These changes were dramatic and optimized to an acceptable degree that the style of play created by those changes are still relevant to this date. The first ten minutes of zerg versus terran today still is almost identical to the method of play sAviOr introduced ten years ago. Bisu's heavy use of dark templars in his triumph versus sAviOr has been refined even further by being replaced by zealot pressure. How exactly is his more recent meta-game shift more influential than sAviOr's if sAviOr's style of play is being replicated even to this date, while Bisu's change is not? Bringing a shift in the meta-game during the finals of a major tournament gets you praise from the media, and the adulation of the fans who'll overblow the actual level of impact purely in terms of in-game meta-game change. However, realistically speaking, there has been other meta-game shifts that have been just as influential. Further more, bonjwahood has nothing to do with influencing the meta-game. We're not discussing the evolution of match-ups, we're discussing the nickname coined for the greatest/most dominant players of their respective era. There has been zero attempts by the fans to credit PuSan for being a bonjwa no matter how much he contributed towards the protoss race in terms of meta-game evolution. These are entirely different arguments, and as such, Bisu's sub-50% performances in the ProLeague during his reign in the MSL, his failures in OGN StarLeague throughout his entire career, and his overall lower win rates during his peak all are relevant to the discussion of whether he was a bonjwa or not. I am biased like everyone else, but I try to back up my statements with facts. I do not fabricate legends like some Bisu fanboys. I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. By building up his legend to unattainable heights, and dismissing his failures and limitations as irrelevant in a discussion of whether his domination was as thorough as sAviOr's was during his prime, I believe that may be the realm of fanboyism. There's no shame in being less dominant than sAviOr, who was years ahead of his time. However, it is undeniable that Bisu's peak was inferior in terms of overall trophy count, finals appearances (two less finals appearnaces) , ProLeague performance-wise, and in terms of overall win rate compared to sAviOr's peak. It is also a fact that within a similar time frame Jaedong matched sAviOr's trophy count, but couldn't match his finals appearance (one less finals), but had a superior ProLeague performance (both in terms of absolute win rate, and being ahead of his peers) and overall win rate (mainly due to the ProLeague inflation). I may be biased for Jaedong, but I do not give extra-points for his GomTV MSL S4 victory for popularizing the three hatchery lair into five hatchery in the protoss match-up. That's what you just tried to do with Bisu's GomTV MSL S1 victory, and just shat on the entire history of competitive Brood War adding sentimental values to his upset win, and describing his meta-game revolution as changing "everything about what people thought was possible in BW". That's biased irrelevant discussion in my eyes. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. I think this is why raw stats and domination is maybe the metric for bonjwahood. I think if you were to talk about maybe influence as a player that Bisu would easily be up there but thats not the discussion at hand. Influence in a game and dominance are neither a causality nor are they irrelevant of each other at the same time. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 28 2016 23:46 darktreb wrote: Hehe, a Bisu fan calling his post-2008 title drought "irrelevant" is such a microcosm of what those times and discussions were like. The word bonjwa has always been both captivating and maddening. This is fitting because it's a concept that fundamentally derived from narrative. It's a word that is first and foremost borne of emotion - the emotion generated in fans by players and their stories. Bisu vs Jaedong vs Ghost of Savior's Legend encapsulated this so well. Bisu is an incredibly skilled player - for sure top 5 all time in terms of raw skill ... arguably he's top 3 or even #1 (for example, Bisu has the best multi-tasking abilities of any player ever), but his narrative will always define him as much as his skill. Jaedong was more the "raw stats guy". From a pure results standpoint, disregarding narrative, Jaedong had both a better career and better peak than Bisu. But Jaedong never quite had the narrative. I got into BW because of Savior, and he was my favorite player until matchfixing happened. But objectively, Jaedong was better in almost every way, and that was clear by the time Jaedong got his Golden Mouse. Once he beat Yarnc in that final, I felt like Jaedong was the greatest Zerg ever, even when disregarding the taint of Savior's matchfixing. At that time it was still debatable, but after that, Jaedong made it to FOUR more finals and ended all reasonable debate. All that said, narrative matters. How much it matters is a discussion for another day. Both Savior and Bisu benefited immensely from a confluence of both results and circumstances, leading to a narrative that could be categorized as "he did something we didn't think was possible, and once it happened, it was so impressive that there was simply no room for debate". With Savior, the story was "Zerg player reaches level of dominance thought only possible for Terrans" followed by "Zerg player conquers set of T>>>Z maps that no other Zerg had any success at all on to walk the royal road (conveniently made possible by repeated qualifying failures that would never have been tolerated of an elite player starting from 2008 onward), and capping it off by beating mega-legend Nada". With Bisu, the story was "greatest upset of all time" combined with "complete revolution of PvZ, the matchup that was probably the most unfair in BW history up to that point, and what was probably the biggest revolution of any matchup in the modern era" combined with "first Protoss to truly be head and shoulders above the rest for an extended player of time". If we're to be honest, his looks contributed to the narrative as well. Unfortunately for Jaedong, Savior had already claimed the unforeseen racial dominance storyline, so Jaedong couldn't have that. There was never a sexy or defining finals win in spite of the fact that almost all his finals wins were over "brand name" players. Some of this was timing:
If you go with the "we didn't think it was possible" criteria I mentioned earlier, the biggest thing Jaedong had was his ZvZ dominance. It really is amazing how great he was at ZvZ. But ZvZ is the least popular matchup in the game. Also, in a weird way I think Savior being so mediocre at ZvZ even during his peak, combined with his one pre-Bisu finals loss being a ZvZ finals, furthered the impression in everyone's minds that ZvZ just doesn't matter as much. Jaedong also had the 0-1 comeback to 3-1 thing, but it was more a statistical fluke and nice microcosm of his mental fortitude, than something mindblowing. At the end of the day, Jaedong didn't really do anything "we didn't think was possible" that was also "interesting" (thus disqualifying his ZvZ dominance). Instead, he was "merely" a really fucking great player who put up insane stats in both individual leagues and Proleague, while also winning stuff like a GomTV league and a WCG. And that's why Jaedong vs Bisu was ever even a debate, because as great as Bisu was (and don't get me wrong, Bisu is great. He is the greatest Protoss player of all time without any debate ... in fact I'd say Bisu is farther ahead of any other P than Jaedong is ahead of any Z or Flash is ahead of any T), Jaedong was objectively just straight up better for longer, and with a higher peak too. If you think I'm biased, for what it's worth, I got into BW because of Savior, my favorite player has always been Flash, I actually mostly rooted against Jaedong during his career, and even within Zergs, I liked Effort more. Maybe watching Jaedong be so damn terrifying when he played my favorite players so many times has biased me, but it's not coming from a fanboy angle, that's for sure. I agree with a lot of your points, Jaedong career was as unsexy is it gets for such an extensive career at the top. He peaked at all the wrong moments, versus the wrong opponents, and never had his own brand of narrative. When he was objectively the best player in the scene, Flash and Bisu were busy being knocked out in the round of 16. When Flash was objectively the best, Jaedong was there to make all his victories that much sweeter. Jaedong's failures were harder to forget about because of how unmemorable his triumphs were, no matter how of it he had in terms of quantity. sAviOr's failures were overshadowed by not only frequency of his success, but how impactful they were, and how his fans re-branded it as an untouchable legacy. From an objective pure statistical point of view, he wasn't as untouchable as one might imagine. There's a reason why sAviOr's still regarded by some as the greatest zerg ever simply due to his legacy, however, while I see reasoning behind the arguments, I think the fabrication of the legend is something that is tagged alongside the narrative of sAviOr's sexy storyline. I swear to god there are still people out there who think Longinus was the most broken map ever, when we had the likes of Ragnarok, or Othello and Tiamat in the more recent era. sAviOr's ethereal performance in Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 is heavenly to watch even to this date, but the over-glorification of the legend is so unreal at times, that I can't take arguments based on those fabrications seriously. I think the players with the sexy storylines, and the mass appeal already gets their due respect, sometimes too much so. The map imbalance they faced suddenly becomes the greatest injustice any player had ever faced. Their meta-game contributions now become the unfathomable moments of genius never seen before or since. Their performance gets bonus points for style, and the actual numbers in terms of trophy count, consistency of performance across all platforms of competition, and overall win rate are meaningless, irrelevant statistics made to confuse the matters of real importance, which are how we felt watching the games. Who cares about what actually happened if we felt another way about it? Shouldn't this entire competitive realm to judged for how much emotions they drew out of us? For example, your comments on Bisu being so much ahead of his fellow protoss brethren is another over-blown notion that comes from Bisu's star power in my opinion. Let me compare Jaedong to sAviOr, and Bisu to Stork. Jaedong versus sAviOr 1st place finishes: 5 vs 4 Finals or above: 9 vs 6 Semi-finals or above: 12 vs 7 Quarter-finals or above: 14 vs 11 Round of 16 or above: 18 vs 13 I won't even mention the ProLeague results. Let's just say it's as close as it gets to a complete whitewash. If you don't want to see how thoroughly mediocre sAviOr was apart from his peak in the 2006 season, don't click the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + SKY 2004 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 11th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R3: No games played vs 3rd best zerg in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 8th best zergin terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 3rd vs the best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 2nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: The best vs the 6th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 2nd best vs 25th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: The best vs 32nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played SK Planet ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played Bisu versus Stork 1st place finishes: 3 vs 1 Finals or above: 4 vs 5 Semi-finals or above: 7 vs 8 Quarter-finals or above: 10 vs 12 Round of 16 or above: 16 vs 24 Stork actually outperforms Bisu across all stages of competition apart from the finals, which is the key difference, but unlike Jaedong, who outperforms his counterpart regardless of the bracket stage, Bisu's only trump card over Stork is that he is more clutch in the finals. In the ProLeague, it's actually in favour of Stork apart from three seasons (that lasts about two and a half years), two of which had amazing performances from Bisu that were memorable (the keyword of today's discussion), but for the other four and a half years, Stork was doing better than Bisu in the ProLeague, sometimes by a significant margin. SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 4th best protoss in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the best protoss in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: No games played vs the 6th in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the 8th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 11th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 10th vs 4th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 6th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 5th vs 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best vs 3rd best protoss in terms of records SK Planet ProLeague: 3rd vs the best protoss in terms of records So exactly how was Bisu that much better? Are we going by statistics, or again, with how we felt about their respective performances, and how impressive Bisu's peaks and how palatable it was to recreate it into a legend that would overshadow the actual level of performance the players displayed. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
On December 27 2016 21:56 thezanursic wrote: I'm a Bisu fan first, and a herO appreciator second, I just think that realistically speaking herO has the edge. I think that Bisu is a far better player, but their weaknesses and strengths just fall into herO's favor. Bisu seems to be stronger in PvT and PvP lately, and a bit weaker in PvZ while herO is a ZvP specialist and is historically very average at the other two match ups. I definitely want Bisu to win, I just think we should be realistic about his chances. If I were to call chances I'd say 60/40 for herO, but Bisu can definitely pull it off I think you addressed the wrong person. I'm betting my money on BeSt beating hero in Ro8 so there won't even be a hero v Bisu match | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote: There were plenty of revolutionary changes to the game. They just never happened in a finals of a major tournament. I'm well aware of that, I watched most of them live as they happened. I never claimed Bisu's revolution was the only one. I said "There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals." At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers, and certainly not Savior, with Protoss. Those three games together span 45 minutes, and at the end of them, everything that was known about playing against Zerg as Protoss had been turned upside-down. None of the developments you mention were as radical this. Everyone started playing the entire PvZ match-up with different builds after Bisu. It's not just that it was in the finals. It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken. On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote: Further more, bonjwahood has nothing to do with influencing the meta-game. Sure it does. When talking about Savior, people constantly bring up the fact that he changed the balance of the game on maps that were considered to disadvantage Zerg. His change to the meta-game carry a lot of weight. On December 29 2016 00:44 Letmelose wrote: I am biased like everyone else, but I try to back up my statements with facts. I do not fabricate legends like some Bisu fanboys. I don't give bonus points for memorable moments, nor do I try to make a performance more than its worth by bringing up sentimental values. By building up his legend to unattainable heights, and dismissing his failures and limitations as irrelevant in a discussion of whether his domination was as thorough as sAviOr's was during his prime, I believe that may be the realm of fanboyism. You base your claims on a special kind of fact, namely numbers, and I fabricated nothing. Of course, the only hard numbers left after Bisu's win over Savior are "3-0", and the atmosphere surrounding it faded away. But Bisu changing what people thought was possible in BW is also a fact, and it is precisely the kind that is lost when you discard everything but the statistics. Even calling that finals an "upset" takes something away from what happened back then. An "upset" is when the underdog wins, when the heavily favoured player loses. There have been plenty of upsets in BW history. The difference here was that Savior played exactly as everyone expected, played the way we all saw him win many times, and got crushed. He played the way people thought was "perfect", and lost. Effort coming back from 0-2 against Flash in an OSL finals was also an upset. You don't need to be a Bisu fan to understand that the MSL finals was a bit more than that. When you bring up statistics, you talk as though the only thing that people are missing is access to the statistics of the individual players. That's not the case. I can count the same as you, and I know which of two numbers is larger. I look at your table summarizing the careers of Savior, Bisu and Jaedong, I read your analysis, and I still disagree with you. If bonjwahood had been a thing decided by numbers, there wouldn't be a discussion. You keep trying it to make it into a thing of numbers by discarding what others say as fanboyism and sentimentality, but really, all you're doing is changing the topic. The following questions can be settled using your table: 1. Who won the most titles in major competitions? 2. Who had the best win/loss ratio during their period of dominance? 3. Who won his titles in the shortest period of time? None of these questions help settle the question of bonjwahood. And they completely miss the impact that the players had. Jaedong won a lot of games and titles. Bisu ended the dominance of a recognized bonjwa who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable, in the finals of a major competition with everything on the line. Bringing up his Proleague stats and post-2008 slump and trying to balance them against this unprecedented and never since repeated achievement seems laughable. Finally, nothing I said diminishes the evolution of the game before or since Bisu. I "shat" on nothing. But that moment was something special, although perhaps you experienced it differently. If you don't want to consider Bisu a bonjwa, that's fine by me. For me he's the "Revolutionist" and "bonjwa-killer". | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 01:30 FlaShFTW wrote: I think this is why raw stats and domination is maybe the metric for bonjwahood. I think if you were to talk about maybe influence as a player that Bisu would easily be up there but thats not the discussion at hand. Influence in a game and dominance are neither a causality nor are they irrelevant of each other at the same time. It triggers me so much when people come up with arguments based on their feelings. Especially if they are trying to say that their opinion on the games they watched, and the players they were impressed by are unswayed by the statistics and review of what actually went on. If any one of us actually watched every single competitive match in history, knew the context and the numbers for each and every one of them, then I would think reviews of the past through the numbers and facts might be unnecessary, but we all have our biases, and we all have incomplete perspective on our experience of viewing the competitive realm of Brood War. People's personal perspective on what mattered, or impressed them on an individual level is as meaningful as the opinions of a seven year old kid who thinks Harry Potter is the greatest work of literature ever written because he read it, and was blown away by the the adventures of a magical kid who got this history with an evil dude who couldn't kill a newborn. It's like banging my head against a wall. The matches I don't remember or didn't watch don't matter. The matches I've watched, and the way I felt at the time are the only thing of importance, and I don't care if the past records, or statistics tell me otherwise. If I saw Bisu doing a new build for the first time, it was obviously a build that nobody else ever thought of, and anybody who says otherwise is biased against him, and is a hater. I don't care for the past, the only thing I care is my account of the past. What the fuck am I supposed to say against that? | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 02:34 GeLaar wrote: I'm well aware of that, I watched most of them live as they happened. I never claimed Bisu's revolution was the only one. I said "There has never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW as there was in that finals." At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers, and certainly not Savior, with Protoss. Those three games together span 45 minutes, and at the end of them, everything that was known about playing against Zerg as Protoss had been turned upside-down. None of the developments you mention were as radical this. Everyone started playing the entire PvZ match-up with different builds after Bisu. It's not just that it was in the finals. It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken. Sure it does. When talking about Savior, people constantly bring up the fact that he changed the balance of the game on maps that were considered to disadvantage Zerg. His change to the meta-game carry a lot of weight. You base your claims on a special kind of fact, namely numbers, and I fabricated nothing. Of course, the only hard numbers left after Bisu's win over Savior are "3-0", and the atmosphere surrounding it faded away. But Bisu changing what people thought was possible in BW is also a fact, and it is precisely the kind that is lost when you discard everything but the statistics. Even calling that finals an "upset" takes something away from what happened back then. An "upset" is when the underdog wins, when the heavily favoured player loses. There have been plenty of upsets in BW history. The difference here was that Savior played exactly as everyone expected, played the way we all saw him win many times, and got crushed. He played the way people thought was "perfect", and lost. Effort coming back from 0-2 against Flash in an OSL finals was also an upset. You don't need to be a Bisu fan to understand that the MSL finals was a bit more than that. When you bring up statistics, you talk as though the only thing that people are missing is access to the statistics of the individual players. That's not the case. I can count the same as you, and I know which of two numbers is larger. I look at your table summarizing the careers of Savior, Bisu and Jaedong, I read your analysis, and I still disagree with you. If bonjwahood had been a thing decided by numbers, there wouldn't be a discussion. You keep trying it to make it into a thing of numbers by discarding what others say as fanboyism and sentimentality, but really, all you're doing is changing the topic. The following questions can be settled using your table: 1. Who won the most titles in major competitions? 2. Who had the best win/loss ratio during their period of dominance? 3. Who won his titles in the shortest period of time? None of these questions help settle the question of bonjwahood. And they completely miss the impact that the players had. Jaedong won a lot of games and titles. Bisu ended the dominance of a recognized bonjwa who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable, in the finals of a major competition with everything on the line. Bringing up his Proleague stats and post-2008 slump and trying to balance them against this unprecedented and never since repeated achievement seems laughable. Finally, nothing I said diminishes the evolution of the game before or since Bisu. I "shat" on nothing. But that moment was something special, although perhaps you experienced it differently. If you don't want to consider Bisu a bonjwa, that's fine by me. For me he's the "Revolutionist" and "bonjwa-killer". 1) Bisu's upset win was revolutionary due to how difficult it was to defeat sAviOr, and the level of upset was bigger than any other in history. sAviOr was on a 9 game winning streak versus protoss players. His recent record at the time versus protoss was 21 wins and 3 losses. Bisu defeated him as a rookie. Let's go back in history. There was this tournament called Gillette OGN StarLeague. iloveoov was on a 23 game winning streak versus zerg players. His recent record at the time versus zerg was 44 wins and 2 losses. July defeated him as a rookie. Any other in history? Perhaps you mean, any other in history of games you've watched. 2) Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game You can shape the meta-game all you want, if the results aren't there, you're not a bonjwa. There's a reason why nobody mentioned the likes of Shark (who invented the mutalisk grouping micro), PuSan (who revolutionized the way PvT was played), and FanTaSy (who brought along the late-mech play that had a huge affect on the balance of the match-up). sAviOr was a bonjwa, and a revolutionary on top of that. If sAviOr was just another one hit wonder who won just one or two titles before fading away, his contributions to the meta-game alone wouldn't have made him a bonjwa. 3) The impact of the tournament win is what defines a player's career and his legacy Sure, if you want to define players by how you felt. Impact cannot be measured. Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases. You specifically said that Bisu was responsible for the single biggest "turn in the meta-game of BW" in history. I showed you a game that was played before that basically had the same method of play. I also mentioned that sAviOr's contributions towards zerg versus terran are still being copied to this date. Exactly how many top class protosses today do you see playing Bisu's heavy reliance on dark templars and corsairs early on? 4) Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable. Your perspective is incomplete as is mine. You didn't watch all the games that was played in history and understand the context behind them. You weren't there as an insider. You don't know who it was that created the strategies behind the scenes. You don't know how much impact it had on the players exactly. All you know, is, what you think happened based on your personal experience as a viewer with zero inside information, and the interactions you've had with random internet folks such as myself. Do you even realize, how much fallacy you can fall prey to, given your approach to rate players? Statistics are just numbers, and don't tell the full story. That's true. However, your arrogance of thinking that you know it all, believing that your personal opinions don't need statistics or insider information, but rather, your own personal interpretation of the events as a mere viewer is more than enough, is astounding to me. I may not know much. I may not have seen much. But I do try to approach without relying on my memories, or perception of what went on. Your perception being more trustworthy than anything else relies on the assumption that you are absolutely free from bias, and have every possible knowledge and recollection of exactly what went on at the time. Try me. Exactly how qualified are you? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 02:54 Barneyk wrote: Doesn't Stork have the most Ro 16 placements ever or something like that? Out of the modern era players, perhaps. I think NaDa has him beat by about four or so. NaDa has the best record for every possible record for every possible bracket that I'm aware of (equaled by some, but not surpassed by), except for the most number of appearances in semi-finals or above, which Jaedong has him beat by one. | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
Is this supposed to represent a claim I made? Because that's not what I said. I gave a hots of reasons why the win was revolutionary, among them the fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals. You turned this into a claim about how difficult to defeat Savior was, then turned that into a statement about his winning streak, and then attacked that point. But it is not the point I made. You did prove that it was not the biggest break of a winning streak, but that doesn't contradict anything I said. 2) "Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game" Again, is this meant to be something I claimed? I said that the influence someone had on the meta-game does matter. As in "it matters, among other things". And you're right, shaping the meta-game without results doesn't make you a bonjwa. But Bisu didn't have no results, did he? He won several titles and is the most successful Protoss player. So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way. He just did the meta-game reshaping first. On December 29 2016 03:13 Letmelose wrote: 3) The impact of the tournament win is what defines a player's career and his legacy Sure, if you want to define players by how you felt. Impact cannot be measured. Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases. You specifically said that Bisu was responsible for the single biggest "turn in the meta-game of BW" in history. I showed you a game that was played before that basically had the same method of play. I also mentioned that sAviOr's contributions towards zerg versus terran are still being copied to this date. Exactly how many top class protosses today do you see playing Bisu's heavy reliance on dark templars and corsairs early on? "Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases." -- That's true, but do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated? Because if you do, then I think I can easily explain why the Bisu fans you talk to seem so frustratingly stubborn to you: They genuinely did observe an impact. Also, while it is certainly harder to measure than with a score sheet, you can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game. About showing games where the same methods were used: This is you reinterpreting history. Of course you will find all the elements of Bisu's play in games that preceded him, but I hope you don't mean to suggest that the day before the finals, everyone knew that you could beat Savior that way. Nobody except Bisu knew it. In hindsight it all seems so obvious, but an hour before the finals started it was anything but obvious. That's another thing you are neglecting by looking at statistics. 4) "Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable." Again, I hope this is not meant to represent what I said. I said that you can not decide bonjwahood with numbers, not that numbers mean nothing, or even that they mean nothing for bonjwahood. I just said that they alone are not what decides bonjwahood. I'm not sure what to make of the comments about insider information, what went into making strategies, and me knowing it all. Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no? You still try to disregard everything you call "feelings" and elevate statistics as the way to decide bonjwahood. I would continue to refuse to reduce the discussion to one about numbers alone. There is a qualitative difference between Bisu's career and Jaedong's, one that is not visible when you look only at what can be easily quantified. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to explain it to someone who didn't watch games from that period. There's nothing forged or fake about it. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
Didn't he get 2-0'd by Jangbi and then 3-0'd by Fantasy in a super convincing manner too? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 03:56 GeLaar wrote: 1) "Bisu's upset win was revolutionary due to how difficult it was to defeat sAviOr, and the level of upset was bigger than any other in history." Is this supposed to represent a claim I made? Because that's not what I said. I gave a hots of reasons why the win was revolutionary, among them the fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals. You turned this into a claim about how difficult to defeat Savior was, then turned that into a statement about his winning streak, and then attacked that point. But it is not the point I made. You did prove that it was not the biggest break of a winning streak, but that doesn't contradict anything I said. 2) "Bonjwahood is based on the metric of how players shaped the meta-game" Again, is this meant to be something I claimed? I said that the influence someone had on the meta-game does matter. As in "it matters, among other things". And you're right, shaping the meta-game without results doesn't make you a bonjwa. But Bisu didn't have no results, did he? He won several titles and is the most successful Protoss player. So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way. He just did the meta-game reshaping first. "Impact can be twisted and fabricated with words, and biases." -- That's true, but do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated? Because if you do, then I think I can easily explain why the Bisu fans you talk to seem so frustratingly stubborn to you: They genuinely did observe an impact. Also, while it is certainly harder to measure than with a score sheet, you can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game. About showing games where the same methods were used: This is you reinterpreting history. Of course you will find all the elements of Bisu's play in games that preceded him, but I hope you don't mean to suggest that the day before the finals, everyone knew that you could beat Savior that way. Nobody except Bisu knew it. In hindsight it all seems so obvious, but an hour before the finals started it was anything but obvious. That's another thing you are neglecting by looking at statistics. 4) "Winning tournaments doesn't matter, win rates doesn't matter, winning more within a shorter time frame doesn't matter. All that matters is my perspective on Bisu's achievements, and my opinion is that he has done was never repeated before or since. You're numbers are laughable." Again, I hope this is not meant to represent what I said. I said that you can not decide bonjwahood with numbers, not that numbers mean nothing, or even that they mean nothing for bonjwahood. I just said that they alone are not what decides bonjwahood. I'm not sure what to make of the comments about insider information, what went into making strategies, and me knowing it all. Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no? You still try to disregard everything you call "feelings" and elevate statistics as the way to decide bonjwahood. I would continue to refuse to reduce the discussion to one about numbers alone. There is a qualitative difference between Bisu's career and Jaedong's, one that is not visible when you look only at what can be easily quantified. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to explain it to someone who didn't watch games from that period. There's nothing forged or fake about it. 1) "It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken." You're the one who brought it up, and I disproved it. Don't put words in my mouth. 2) "At the start of that finals, nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers" Did you even watch the game I linked you? You're trying out every single angle out there to make this finals some kind of an act of god that was never even close to being replicated in any shape or form. First you say there "never been a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW ", and when I show you other examples of just as impactful meta-game shifts (with specific examples of sAviOr's three hatchery build being replicated more closely modern day zergs than Bisu's opening builds in GomTV MSL S1 finals despite the innovation from sAviOr being older), you said it was a "fact that no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals", when similar builds and methods of winning games versus zergs where shown by professional players such as Daezang. The success with which the players carried out these builds are irrelevant in this specific context of you trying to portray the entire protoss race as some bumbling idiots who had no idea how to play the match-up. It's the reason why I said you're shitting on the history of Brood War by allocating all of the credit to Bisu, and ignoring the work earlier generations of protoss by saying they had no idea of how to beat zergs consistently. 3) "So he did win titles and he reshaped the meta-game in a rather spectacular way." Nal_rA won several titles, and was the most success protoss of his era. He also reshaped the meta-game by making double nexus more viable with specific cannon placements to maximize the income potential, showed the first double nexus build in PvT, and showed the potential of arbiters in PvT before PuSan optimized it. It's about the sheer level of performance, not the re-shaping of the meta-game. 4)"Do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated?" When you say stuff like the breaking of sAviOr's win streak was unprecended, or that protoss players didn't even know how to play PvZ before Bisu showed them how. Sure, I think some statements are being fabricated. 5) "You can also measure the impact of that match by looking at PvZ games in the years following it. There was a noticeable effect, and not that long after, Zergs were regularly doing Hydra busts to compensate for the new meta-game." I'm not denying the level of impact it had. I'm just saying it was a relatively gradual evolution of the meta-game, not this articifal storyline of there never being such "a similarly sharp turn in the meta-game of BW ", like you mentioned. That's the kind of fabrication I'm talking about. Players such as Daezang were playing a very similar style before Bisu shocked the world, and you've reduced all of his efforts to nothing by saying "nobody knew how to consistently beat Zerg progamers". FanTaSy's late-game mech introduction was a popularized, with SK Terran dying out almost completely in the modern realm of Brood War. What does this level of impact mean in FanTaSy's attempt at being a bonjwa? Does he not get the necessary bonus points because he introduced his new build in the ProLeague? Exactly by how much should we rate this kind of impact in the meta-game shift? Should we be discussing FanTaSy as a potential bonjwa for going to four finals (the same as Bisu), and having introduced a never seen before late-game shift into pure mech play? Or does this only count for players like Bisu? What counts as an impactful revolution? Does the SK Telecom T1 build in PvT created by BeSt count? It ended the enormous efficiency that FD Terran opening had. Should he be rated above other finalists without a famous build? Where do we stop? What about all the builds and innovations that people don't exactly know the origin of? Can we even start to rate anyone without knowing the exact origins and the impact for every single turn in the evolution of the meta-game? Or are we just going to count the ones that are famous like Bisu's? 6) "Why would you need to know all of that in order to decide who's a bonjwa, or who had an impact? Surely nobody knows that much, but still you accept the first four bonjwas, no?" Because it's enough to decide the first four bonjwas without having that knowledge, and we can just go by the numbers. Once you open the can of worms, that is your own specific criteria, of which tournaments were more impactful, which players innovated by exactly how much, and by which amount it affected the rest of the players being a vital component of who gets to be a bonjwa, you need to know way more than just numbers. My own criteria suffices with me going through the statistics. Your criteria requires you to not only know the first time the build was televised (which wasn't the case for Bisu, unlike some of the other innovations I've mentioned), who invented it during practice, how much of it was spread due to the success it had on televison, or how much it transfered during practice. Also, you need to know the exact amount of the impact it had, such as the precise number of players who changed their style completely purely because of that player. You're the one who wanted to this to be such a pivotal issue in deciding who gets to be a bonjwa. Surely you don't want to be in the dark about this issue considering how irreplaceable it is. Who was the first player to play the forge expansion into corsair dark templar play on television? Who was the first to do it in practice? How much did it really affect the entire match-up? Are you that confident in knowing not only these questions, but having the answers for every single evolution of the game that was brought onto the scene by players who won multiple championships? If not. I'm just going to continue saying that you rely solely on your own personal experience of viewing Bisu, and how it made you feel. You're the one who brought up this new criteria, without having the decency to mention players such as TerAtO, or Daezang who played similar builds before Bisu unravelled its full potential, and just put forth blanket statements like Bisu creating the biggest chasm in all of history in terms of meta-game evolution, and no protosses having a clue on how to play the match-up. Not only is that disrespectful to the other players, you don't even bother to think about all the evolution of the meta-game, and how much each of them are worth in the grand scope of things. You just care about the sexy storyline of this new protoss player that just stomped the living hell out of sAviOr, and how it changed history forever. How aware are you of the other major evolutions of the game that did not involve an exciting new player upsetting a known favourite in the finals? How much detail are you willing to go into, just to include this weird criteria of yours? If it is of that much importance to you in terms of deciding who gets to be bonjwa, shouldn't you at least try to research things a little more thoroughly? | ||
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GeLaar
2421 Posts
On December 29 2016 05:12 Letmelose wrote: 1) "It's how radical the break was, and how thoroughly the dominance of a bonjwa was broken." You're the one who brought it up, and I disproved it. Don't put words in my mouth. 4)"Do you think that this is the case with Bisu vs. Savior, that the impact was fabricated?" When you say stuff like the breaking of sAviOr's win streak was unprecended, or that protoss players didn't even know how to play PvZ before Bisu showed them how. Sure, I think some statements are being fabricated. Something certainly has been fabricated here. I did not mention anything about "win streaks" until you did. And even then, I only pointed out that it was you who brought up win streaks. It seems that we can't agree on who said what, even with a written record in front of us. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 29 2016 04:23 wassbix wrote: Do people not remember late 2011-2012 when Flash was getting his teeth kicked in by Fantasy and Jangbi in individual leagues. Didn't he get 2-0'd by Jangbi and then 3-0'd by Fantasy in a super convincing manner too? How is this relevant | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. Either that, or he was trying to argue that Flash wasn't a bonjwa due to a late-career slump. Which I don't buy. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 05:34 GeLaar wrote: Something certainly has been fabricated here. I did not mention anything about "win streaks" until you did. And even then, I only pointed out that it was you who brought up win streaks. It seems that we can't agree on who said what, even with a written record in front of us. You specifically mentioned how Bisu's upset over sAviOr was more impactful, due to how it ended the dominance of sAviOr and how good he was against protoss, and how it the break in sAviOr winning streak was on a bigger scale of upset than any other in history. I provided the counter-argument that there were similar levels of upsets by mentioning iloveoov's insane streak against the zerg race, and how July ended that. You're the one that tried to make the upset more unique than it actually was by trying to force the narrative that the level of domination sAviOr showed was unstoppable by the protoss race before Bisu came along. Go tell sAviOr to have a 23 game winning streak like iloveoov was able to do (as opposed to his actual 9 game winning streak), then, we can agree that the protoss race was hopeless against sAviOr, and how Bisu's breaking of that win streak was more radical than any other in history. You also failed to provide any arguments to establish your assertion that no protoss did not know by which method to beat the zerg players, which is also a fabrication of the truth. They may not have had the level of success Bisu reached, but the evolution of the PvZ match-up wasn't already at the works by 2006 by other protoss players such as Daezang. Please go watch this game before constantly trying to force me into agreeing with you that protoss players had no idea how to win versus zerg before Bisu showed them how. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220172796769 You are shitting on the attempts made by other protoss players that paved way for Bisu to show his revolutionary style against the zerg race. Bisu was responsible for leading the way in one of the most significant meta-game shifts in history, in the most dramatic style possible. However, the meta-game revolution was already at the works with or without Bisu there, and although Bisu was responsible for exposing its full potential, but the basic approach that Daezang showed was essentially had the same foundations of what differentiated Bisu's style of forge expansion, which was the early map control provided by the corsairs and dark templars/speed zealots, which minimized the resources spent on cannons, which paved way for faster explosion of gateways. This is Bisu playing one the same map before Daezang's match. Notice he builds templar archives before he builds the Stargate. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100196972803 This is the match versus sAviOr that happened more than two months after Daezang's match, notice how he molded his opening to more closely resemble Daezang's style, with the early Stargate after forge expansion that we are more familiar with today. + Show Spoiler + It's not just the individual leagues that this trend takes place. Notice how Daezang goes for fast Stargates before using speed zealots in November 2006, while competing for his team in SKY 2006 ProLeague R2. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220172796769 Notice how just a couple of weeks before Daezang reveals his refreshing method of play, Bisu prefers the more traditional forge expansion into fast Citadel of Adun, used by top protosses such as Nal_rA at the time. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220166868358 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220168736490 Then after Daezang enjoys success with his fast Stargate builds, in both the ProLeague and the individual leagues, Bisu suddenly goes for Stargate first builds in the ProLeague. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220186328889 I think Bisu was instrumental in the advancement of the PvZ match-up, and enjoyed greater success in this traditionally difficult match-up for the protoss race than any other protoss player in history. His triumph over sAviOr, and the great performances he had versus the zerg race throughout his career, forever cemented his place in history as the one who gave hope to the protoss race. However, give credit where it is due. Daezang was already working out the next phase of the evolution before Bisu managed to show it in televised games. You may have conveniently forgotten about these games, but I was also watching these games. Other protoss players were experimenting new methods of playing versus zerg including TerAtO, or PuSan in a similar era. You have just smeared all over their blood, sweat, and tears of these players, just to push your narrative that Bisu changed the match-up by a greater amount than any other single player in history, and how amazing this achievement is, and how Bisu can never be even touched by mere mortals who did it the boring way, and just won championships by being good. Can you figure out why I think you may be over-emphasizing your own personal experiences of watching the game, rather than relying on objective facts, and statistics? How exact do you think your recollections of the professional scene are? Are they accurate enough to completely ignore statistics, and just going by your gut feelings of who was more "impactful" or "meaningful"? I don't know how much inside information you have, or how many games you managed to watch over all these years. But your method of judging players would suck balls if you don't have a grasp of the entire professional realm to a level that extends far beyond my capabilities. I would never assume to judge players according to their impact. How would I know which players created which strategies during practice, even if I managed to watch every single professional game ever played? How would I know about the origins of all the strategies ever created, and by which precise amount various players contributed towards it, and how much exactly they need to be praised for its impact? Are you even aware of the magnitude of knowledge you would require just to discuss this very topic with the certainty and authority you casually fling around? Who the fuck are you to decide like it's a certain fact, which players created which strategies, and who should be praised by which amout for certain meta-game shifts, and who should be ignored despite their contributions? At least I admit the limitations that I have with judging players by raw data. You don't even seem to be aware of your own fallacies, and keep throwing across these vague, sweeping statements like they are a fact. Are are you relishing on that realm of uncertainty and vagueness like some mad Evangelical stating faith as fact, and quick to point out the limitations of data and objective analysis, but blind to flaws in judging the world based purely based on your personal perspective? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I was made aware of how much Bisu's accomplishments mean to you on a personal level. I'm not trying to take that away from you. But what I am trying to stop, is your attempts to make your own personal interpretation as if they are the status quo. At least I can back my numbers and statistiscs up, even if the level of correlation between objective performance rating and bonjwahood is a thing for discussion. You're just making weird statements that have no factual evidence like "no way to consistently beat Zerg progamers was known before the finals". What the hell was Daezang doing in those games if he wasn't taking an active participation of taking the evolution of PvZ to the next level? You also had the audacity to call me out when I tried to counter your claim of Bisu's victory over someone "who seemed unbeatable, in a match-up thought to be unwinnable" was an "unprecedented and never since repeated achievement", with statistics that showed that sAviOr wasn't as unbeatable as some of the more dominant forces in history. All this meaningless, time-wasting arguments, and I can almost sense that you didn't even watch the game I linked to you once and kept harping on and on about how other protoss players had no idea about how to play the match. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On December 29 2016 03:23 Letmelose wrote: Out of the modern era players, perhaps. I think NaDa has him beat by about four or so. NaDa has the best record for every possible record for every possible bracket that I'm aware of (equaled by some, but not surpassed by), except for the most number of appearances in semi-finals or above, which Jaedong has him beat by one. Stork has the most OSL Ro16's. For OSL+MSL combined it's NaDa. This reminds me I tallied up the Ro16 and Ro8 appearances and I should share it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K-XShgsBp_Sp__xB4EtzuO5j9-VH2kagIATG3G3z6rs | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
I now feel pretty good about joining the camp that considers Jaedong to be 'the Uncrowned Bonjwa', and in considering Bisu to be 'pretty close, but not quite'. Though if Protoss needs a bonjwa, I guess it's Bisu or no one. Maybe that's wrong, maybe that's right. But if it's wrong, I don't wanna be right. And maybe everyone should lighten up a little. This is a very good time in BW right now, much to be thankful for. And at the end of the day, bonjwa is just a word. A cool word, but just a word. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 13:28 Crisium wrote: Stork has the most OSL Ro16's. For OSL+MSL combined it's NaDa. This reminds me I tallied up the Ro16 and Ro8 appearances and I should share it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K-XShgsBp_Sp__xB4EtzuO5j9-VH2kagIATG3G3z6rs I have slightly different numbers. I have 28 for NaDa and 24 for Stork. NaDa 1) 1st KPGA Tournament: Round of 8 2) 2nd KPGA Tournament: 1st 3) 3rd KPGA Tournament: 1st 4) 4th KPGA Tournament: 1st 5) Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 1st 6) Olympus OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 7) Stout MSL: 2nd 8) Mycube OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 9) TG Sambo MSL: 3rd 10) NHN Hangame OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 11) Hanaforce CEN MSL: 2nd 12) Gillette OGN StarLeague; Round of 8 13) SPRIS MSL: Round of 16 14) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 15) YATGK MSL: 2nd 16) IOPS OGN StarLeague: 1st 17) UZOO MSL: Round of 16 18) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 19) Pringles MSL S2: Round of 16 20) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: 1st 21) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 2nd 22) Daum OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 24) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 25) GomTV MSL S4: Round of 8 26) Arena MSL: Round of 16 27) Clubday MSL: Round of 8 28) Lost Saga MSL: Round of 8 A top eight finish or above in every single year from 2002~2009. Not bad for a dude that was drinking beer before the games, and playing more Sudden Attack than Starcraft. Stork 1) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 2) So1 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 3) Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 4) Pringles MSL S1: Round of 16 5) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Round of 16 6) GomTV MSL S2: 2nd 7) Daum OGN StarLeague: 3rd 8) GomTV MSL S3: Round of 16 9) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 10) Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 11) EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 12) Clubday MSL: Round of 8 13) Incruit OGN StarLeague: 1st 14) Batoo OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 15) Lost Saga MSL: Round of 4 16) Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague; Round of 16 17) EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8 18) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1: Round of 16 19) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: Round of 4 20) PDPOP MSL: Round of 8 21) Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 2nd 22) ABCMart MSL: Round of 16 23) Jin Air OGN StarLeague; Round of 16 24) tving OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 A top eight finish or above in every single year from 2007~2011. As a side note, I think it's hilarious that Sea, who was not been to the round of four even once in his career, managed to accumulate thirteen round of 16 or above performances. The ultimate pub-stomper with his amazing records in the ProLeague, and sustained excellence in terms of qualifying for the lowest stages of the individual leagues. Imagine if he was a little dedicated towards his profession, I think he could have been one of the greatest terrans in history, instead of being one of the numerous terrans to do well in the ProLeague, but fall short in the individual leagues in the modern era. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Edit: Updated I agree Sea is interesting. 13 Ro16 appearances, 2 Ro8, 0 higher. 60% winrate though. Hwasin also only made 1 Ro4 despite 17 Ro16 and 7 Ro8 appearances. Excluding the match fixing scandal, he should be considered once of the most consistent Terran threats ever just from constantly placing top 16. Imagine how many players he eliminated in Ro16 and lower. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 14:53 Crisium wrote: Thanks, somehow I forget to check 2004 IOPS OSL and EVER2005 OSL in my Ro16 numbers. I will update my numbers. That will change several players' totals. Edit: Updated I agree Sea is interesting. 13 Ro16 appearances, 2 Ro8, 0 higher. 60% winrate though. Hwasin also only made 1 Ro4 despite 17 Ro16 and 7 Ro8 appearances. Excluding the match fixing scandal, he should be considered once of the most consistent Terran threats ever just from constantly placing top 16. Imagine how many players he eliminated in Ro16 and lower. Hwasin was an incredibly linear player who excelled on simplistic maps that maximized his deadly timing attacks. He was indeed one of the best terrans around at certain points in his career, when the terran race as at an all time low in terms of having a player to look up to, definitely a sound player who made most of his strengths. He was a little unlucky with the brackets, but he was never destined for greatness in my opinion. He may have went a little deeper with more fortuitous brackets here and there, but I never felt like he had it in him, like I once did with Sea. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. no. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
That would necessitate that Bisu lose early, horribly, and in some bizzare manner, so I vote no :D edit: ok weird the post i was quoting dissappeared and got replaced. Original quote was about ASL being the equivalent of the OSl, now my reply just makes no sense. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On December 29 2016 01:58 Letmelose wrote: I agree with a lot of your points, Jaedong career was as unsexy is it gets for such an extensive career at the top. He peaked at all the wrong moments, versus the wrong opponents, and never had his own brand of narrative. When he was objectively the best player in the scene, Flash and Bisu were busy being knocked out in the round of 16. When Flash was objectively the best, Jaedong was there to make all his victories that much sweeter. Jaedong's failures were harder to forget about because of how unmemorable his triumphs were, no matter how of it he had in terms of quantity. sAviOr's failures were overshadowed by not only frequency of his success, but how impactful they were, and how his fans re-branded it as an untouchable legacy. From an objective pure statistical point of view, he wasn't as untouchable as one might imagine. There's a reason why sAviOr's still regarded by some as the greatest zerg ever simply due to his legacy, however, while I see reasoning behind the arguments, I think the fabrication of the legend is something that is tagged alongside the narrative of sAviOr's sexy storyline. I swear to god there are still people out there who think Longinus was the most broken map ever, when we had the likes of Ragnarok, or Othello and Tiamat in the more recent era. sAviOr's ethereal performance in Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 is heavenly to watch even to this date, but the over-glorification of the legend is so unreal at times, that I can't take arguments based on those fabrications seriously. I think the players with the sexy storylines, and the mass appeal already gets their due respect, sometimes too much so. The map imbalance they faced suddenly becomes the greatest injustice any player had ever faced. Their meta-game contributions now become the unfathomable moments of genius never seen before or since. Their performance gets bonus points for style, and the actual numbers in terms of trophy count, consistency of performance across all platforms of competition, and overall win rate are meaningless, irrelevant statistics made to confuse the matters of real importance, which are how we felt watching the games. Who cares about what actually happened if we felt another way about it? Shouldn't this entire competitive realm to judged for how much emotions they drew out of us? For example, your comments on Bisu being so much ahead of his fellow protoss brethren is another over-blown notion that comes from Bisu's star power in my opinion. Let me compare Jaedong to sAviOr, and Bisu to Stork. Jaedong versus sAviOr 1st place finishes: 5 vs 4 Finals or above: 9 vs 6 Semi-finals or above: 12 vs 7 Quarter-finals or above: 14 vs 11 Round of 16 or above: 18 vs 13 I won't even mention the ProLeague results. Let's just say it's as close as it gets to a complete whitewash. If you don't want to see how thoroughly mediocre sAviOr was apart from his peak in the 2006 season, don't click the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + SKY 2004 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 11th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2004 ProLeague R3: No games played vs 3rd best zerg in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 8th best zergin terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: No games played vs 7th best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: 3rd vs the best zerg in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 2nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: The best vs the 6th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: The best vs the 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 2nd best vs 25th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 13th best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: The best vs 32nd best zerg in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played SK Planet ProLeague: The best zerg vs no games played Bisu versus Stork 1st place finishes: 3 vs 1 Finals or above: 4 vs 5 Semi-finals or above: 7 vs 8 Quarter-finals or above: 10 vs 12 Round of 16 or above: 16 vs 24 Stork actually outperforms Bisu across all stages of competition apart from the finals, which is the key difference, but unlike Jaedong, who outperforms his counterpart regardless of the bracket stage, Bisu's only trump card over Stork is that he is more clutch in the finals. In the ProLeague, it's actually in favour of Stork apart from three seasons (that lasts about two and a half years), two of which had amazing performances from Bisu that were memorable (the keyword of today's discussion), but for the other four and a half years, Stork was doing better than Bisu in the ProLeague, sometimes by a significant margin. SKY 2005 ProLeague R1: No games played vs 4th best protoss in terms of records SKY 2005 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the best protoss in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R1: No games played vs the 6th in terms of records SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 6th vs the 8th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 11th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 14th vs the 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 10th vs 4th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: The best vs 6th best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 5th vs 2nd best protoss in terms of records Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: The best vs 3rd best protoss in terms of records SK Planet ProLeague: 3rd vs the best protoss in terms of records So exactly how was Bisu that much better? Are we going by statistics, or again, with how we felt about their respective performances, and how impressive Bisu's peaks and how palatable it was to recreate it into a legend that would overshadow the actual level of performance the players displayed. Fair enough, I think I'm giving Bisu a more credit than he deserves due to "feelings". However, let me try to make a case for why he's quite a ways above Stork. I'm not sure I even fully agree with what I'm about to say =P. But, I think this will be fun for the sake of discussion. I totally agree that feelings and narrative often lead to overly strong opinions. You've aptly noted that the 3/3 Revolution arguably wasn't even the biggest upset in BW history as it's often labeled (and even I labeled it that way earlier in this thread), because July's victory over iloveoov was by any quantitative measure a bigger upset. However, the challenge with going with stats is there's still a lot of surface area and room for opinion. For example, you can compare stuff like RO16 qualifications, or # of seasons one player was better in Proleague. But there's also career stats, player vs race stats, ELO ranks / peaks, Kespa ranks, etc. I personally prefer to anchor on stats and then add in narrative, rather than vice versa (whereas Bisu supporters tend to anchor on narrative and then throw in stats where convenient, hehe). But I don't think it's possible to squeeze out all subjectivity in evaluating players either (not that you've been saying that - I just wanted to make that point explicitly clear for this post). All stats paint an incomplete picture, and so there's a lot of subjectivity in how you weight them. For instance, no one who seriously followed the scene thinks Kespa ranking was a great system, but it wasn't random either, and reaching #1 was still a meaningful concept. Personally, I think # of RO16 qualifications is overrated, because it's mostly testing a player's consistency at beating inferior players, since that's usually how a non-seeded player would re-qualify for RO16 each year. It also disproportionately weights how early a player's career started, since BW didn't end organically (does anyone think Flash doesn't end up with the RO16 record if the scene lasted forever?). Personally, I also think # of finals made, and especially a player's performance in finals, matter a ton, because OSL/MSL finals were what it was all about from an individual standpoint. But I also recognize a lot of this is indeed personal, and shouldn't be assumed to be a global view. To me personally, the Bisu >> Stork argument comes down to dominance. Bisu was a stronger player for longer. Bisu was the best player in the world for much longer. Bisu was scarier for longer. If you had to pick between Bisu and Stork to play one game for you, knowing nothing about the opponent, you go with Bisu in most months starting in 2007. While feelings are a part of this, I think there's a statistical case as well, which I'll present below. But speaking of narrative, I actually think Stork gets a little too much credit for his "consistency" - it's become part of his narrative as the oldest player to stay elite. He's kind of like the modern day analog to how Nada was viewed from 2008-2010, only Stork's peak was nowhere near Nada's. Yeah, Stork kept making RO16, but he wasn't someone you feared that much in leagues, and it wasn't surprising when he got knocked out. Bisu's narrative actually backfired on him in the last couple of years of his career, because he was still a great player who looked theoretically capable of beating anyone, and kept putting up solid to great PL stats. Thus, his RO32/RO16 failures were amplified, especially Bisu also had way more anti-fans by the end of his career. That said, Stork at least made an OSL finals in 2011. Bisu really was quite bad in MSL/OSL starting in 2009.... Ok, time for some stats, finally. First there's winrate. Bisu ended up around 66%, and Stork ended up around 60%. Sometimes winrates can be misleading because a player sucked especially hard at the beginning or end of their career (like how Stork's winrate over Flash is inflated by stomping Flash as a rookie six times), but I think they're pretty representative of the players here. Going into matchups, Bisu was the greatest PvZ player ever by far (I think we can at least all agree on that!), and Stork, even at his peak, was never a scary PvZ player. Their winrates reflect this - Bisu at an incredible 71.5%, Stork just under 55%. (Feelings-wise, it always felt to me like any decent A-team Zerg had a puncher's chance to beat Stork for almost the entirety of his career. And when Stork was struggling, it felt like he was an underdog against even medium tier A-team Zergs, and a heavy underdog against whomever was an elite Zerg at the time.) As for PvT, I think most people who watched lots of BW felt that Stork was actually the better PvT player. The winrates bear this out too, though it's not huge (Bisu 63%, Stork 66%). Bisu was so talented mechanically, and PvT is a matchup that inherently lends itself to Protoss players crushing inferior Terran players, so he was still very good at this matchup. But Stork was a PvT surgeon. I think if Bisu had Stork's understanding of PvT, he might have had Flash's career. PvP is where it gets interesting. I actually personally had felt like Stork understood this matchup better than Bisu. Earlier in their careers, Stork had better winrates, but Bisu became nearly untouchable for periods of time in PvP later on. Bisu actually ended up a smidge under 64% in PvP while Stork ended up a smidge under 60%. Let's move to ELO peaks, since that better captures "peak performance". ELO peaks got inflated by there being way more games in the later years, but since Bisu and Stork's careers overlapped almost entirely, I think it's reasonable to use ELO peaks to compare them.
As for Kespa rank, I definitely don't want to rely too much on this flawed ranking, but it was interesting to see that Bisu was much less far ahead of the pack than I expected on this front. Bisu was the top Protoss for 26 months, while Stork was for 21 months. Bisu was #1 overall for 6 months, while Stork was #1 overall for 4 months. I admit the narrative got me on this one - I had fully expected Bisu to be head and shoulders above Stork on Kespa rank, but actually Flash and Jaedong were way more ahead of their respective races on this front than Bisu. Now that I've gone through more of the stats, I don't think Bisu was quite as far ahead as I did previously. I do think what holds Stork back is that Stork never had the peaks, such as never having a Proleague season nearly as good as Bisu's best year, only winning one final (in spite of making it to more than Bisu did), and pretty much always having a PvZ achilles heel that made it hard to ever feel like he was dominant. The relative dominance comes down to the other guys. Jaedong has Savior (and to some extent, July and Yellow), and Flash has Boxer/Nada/iloveoov (and to some extent, Fantasy). Bisu has Stork (and to some extent, Nal_Ra, Reach, maybe Anytime, maaaybe Garimto?). Savior, Boxer, Nada, and oov were all "clearly the greatest player in the world" for many months at a time. Stork arguably had it for a month or two at most. So that's why it sometimes feels like Bisu was farther ahead, because he was the only Protoss to ever have a prolonged period of "this guy is the best", but I admit it's quite subjective to zoom in on that now that I look at more of the full picture. Question for you: Stork vs Fantasy. Few would argue that Fantasy had an outright superior career to Stork. But how big is the gap between them? They have very similar Starleague histories, overall winrates, and ELO peak pictures. Fantasy's career was shorter, but BW's untimely demise contributed to this. Should Fantasy be viewed as very close to Stork? And if so, does that mean Fantasy should be viewed as very close to Bisu? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 16:37 darktreb wrote: Fair enough, I think I'm giving Bisu a more credit than he deserves due to "feelings". However, let me try to make a case for why he's quite a ways above Stork. I'm not sure I even fully agree with what I'm about to say =P. But, I think this will be fun for the sake of discussion. I totally agree that feelings and narrative often lead to overly strong opinions. You've aptly noted that the 3/3 Revolution arguably wasn't even the biggest upset in BW history as it's often labeled (and even I labeled it that way earlier in this thread), because July's victory over iloveoov was by any quantitative measure a bigger upset. However, the challenge with going with stats is there's still a lot of surface area and room for opinion. For example, you can compare stuff like RO16 qualifications, or # of seasons one player was better in Proleague. But there's also career stats, player vs race stats, ELO ranks / peaks, Kespa ranks, etc. I personally prefer to anchor on stats and then add in narrative, rather than vice versa (whereas Bisu supporters tend to anchor on narrative and then throw in stats where convenient, hehe). But I don't think it's possible to squeeze out all subjectivity in evaluating players either (not that you've been saying that - I just wanted to make that point explicitly clear for this post). All stats paint an incomplete picture, and so there's a lot of subjectivity in how you weight them. For instance, no one who seriously followed the scene thinks Kespa ranking was a great system, but it wasn't random either, and reaching #1 was still a meaningful concept. Personally, I think # of RO16 qualifications is overrated, because it's mostly testing a player's consistency at beating inferior players, since that's usually how a non-seeded player would re-qualify for RO16 each year. It also disproportionately weights how early a player's career started, since BW didn't end organically (does anyone think Flash doesn't end up with the RO16 record if the scene lasted forever?). Personally, I also think # of finals made, and especially a player's performance in finals, matter a ton, because OSL/MSL finals were what it was all about from an individual standpoint. But I also recognize a lot of this is indeed personal, and shouldn't be assumed to be a global view. To me personally, the Bisu >> Stork argument comes down to dominance. Bisu was a stronger player for longer. Bisu was the best player in the world for much longer. Bisu was scarier for longer. If you had to pick between Bisu and Stork to play one game for you, knowing nothing about the opponent, you go with Bisu in most months starting in 2007. While feelings are a part of this, I think there's a statistical case as well, which I'll present below. But speaking of narrative, I actually think Stork gets a little too much credit for his "consistency" - it's become part of his narrative as the oldest player to stay elite. He's kind of like the modern day analog to how Nada was viewed from 2008-2010, only Stork's peak was nowhere near Nada's. Yeah, Stork kept making RO16, but he wasn't someone you feared that much in leagues, and it wasn't surprising when he got knocked out. Bisu's narrative actually backfired on him in the last couple of years of his career, because he was still a great player who looked theoretically capable of beating anyone, and kept putting up solid to great PL stats. Thus, his RO32/RO16 failures were amplified, especially Bisu also had way more anti-fans by the end of his career. That said, Stork at least made an OSL finals in 2011. Bisu really was quite bad in MSL/OSL starting in 2009.... Ok, time for some stats, finally. First there's winrate. Bisu ended up around 66%, and Stork ended up around 60%. Sometimes winrates can be misleading because a player sucked especially hard at the beginning or end of their career (like how Stork's winrate over Flash is inflated by stomping Flash as a rookie six times), but I think they're pretty representative of the players here. Going into matchups, Bisu was the greatest PvZ player ever by far (I think we can at least all agree on that!), and Stork, even at his peak, was never a scary PvZ player. Their winrates reflect this - Bisu at an incredible 71.5%, Stork just under 55%. (Feelings-wise, it always felt to me like any decent A-team Zerg had a puncher's chance to beat Stork for almost the entirety of his career. And when Stork was struggling, it felt like he was an underdog against even medium tier A-team Zergs, and a heavy underdog against whomever was an elite Zerg at the time.) As for PvT, I think most people who watched lots of BW felt that Stork was actually the better PvT player. The winrates bear this out too, though it's not huge (Bisu 63%, Stork 66%). Bisu was so talented mechanically, and PvT is a matchup that inherently lends itself to Protoss players crushing inferior Terran players, so he was still very good at this matchup. But Stork was a PvT surgeon. I think if Bisu had Stork's understanding of PvT, he might have had Flash's career. PvP is where it gets interesting. I actually personally had felt like Stork understood this matchup better than Bisu. Earlier in their careers, Stork had better winrates, but Bisu became nearly untouchable for periods of time in PvP later on. Bisu actually ended up a smidge under 64% in PvP while Stork ended up a smidge under 60%. Let's move to ELO peaks, since that better captures "peak performance". ELO peaks got inflated by there being way more games in the later years, but since Bisu and Stork's careers overlapped almost entirely, I think it's reasonable to use ELO peaks to compare them.
As for Kespa rank, I definitely don't want to rely too much on this flawed ranking, but it was interesting to see that Bisu was much less far ahead of the pack than I expected on this front. Bisu was the top Protoss for 26 months, while Stork was for 21 months. Bisu was #1 overall for 6 months, while Stork was #1 overall for 4 months. I admit the narrative got me on this one - I had fully expected Bisu to be head and shoulders above Stork on Kespa rank, but actually Flash and Jaedong were way more ahead of their respective races on this front than Bisu. Now that I've gone through more of the stats, I don't think Bisu was quite as far ahead as I did previously. I do think what holds Stork back is that Stork never had the peaks, such as never having a Proleague season nearly as good as Bisu's best year, only winning one final (in spite of making it to more than Bisu did), and pretty much always having a PvZ achilles heel that made it hard to ever feel like he was dominant. The relative dominance comes down to the other guys. Jaedong has Savior (and to some extent, July and Yellow), and Flash has Boxer/Nada/iloveoov (and to some extent, Fantasy). Bisu has Stork (and to some extent, Nal_Ra, Reach, maybe Anytime, maaaybe Garimto?). Savior, Boxer, Nada, and oov were all "clearly the greatest player in the world" for many months at a time. Stork arguably had it for a month or two at most. So that's why it sometimes feels like Bisu was farther ahead, because he was the only Protoss to ever have a prolonged period of "this guy is the best", but I admit it's quite subjective to zoom in on that now that I look at more of the full picture. Question for you: Stork vs Fantasy. Few would argue that Fantasy had an outright superior career to Stork. But how big is the gap between them? They have very similar Starleague histories, overall winrates, and ELO peak pictures. Fantasy's career was shorter, but BW's untimely demise contributed to this. Should Fantasy be viewed as very close to Stork? And if so, does that mean Fantasy should be viewed as very close to Bisu? I'd like to answer in depth, but I really don't have it in me to do these topics any justice. This comparison can be written into an essay given enough time and energy. There's a reason why Bisu was a potential candidate for the title of bonjwa, while Stork, a legendary player in his own right, was never seen as such. Bisu has the best overall record out of all the protoss players, and the highest trophy count, and two amazing years in the ProLeague. However, his career outside of that is closer to a series of unfulfilled promises and what-ifs. Stork, for all his limitations, is the only protoss in history to have eight years as a top protoss player in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague. What Stork lacks in his absolute peak, he makes up for with astonishing longetivity. For the two astonishing years Bisu had as the top protoss dog in the ProLeague, he matched it over with two years of being outside of the top ten protosses in the ProLeague (let that sink in for a moment, try to name ten protosses above Bisu in 2007 for example, sometimes we end up with names like cHalRengE). Stork never had a ProLeague season where he was outperformed by more than seven protoss players in his eight years as a elite tier protoss player. He was making it into the OGN StarLeague when NaDa was entering as the reigning champion, and was there for the ride until Brood War ended, reaching the finals whether it was in 2007 against Bisu, or 2011 against FanTaSy. I personally think Bisu was the better player of the two (although skill isn't everything in this profession), and depending on which mood I'm in, I can either answer Bisu had the better career, or Stork had the better career. Normally, I tend to answer against which ever side the obnoxious fanboyism comes from. I don't have strong opinion either way. As for FanTaSy. I don't think you are fully appreciating the longetivity Stork displayed, and letting the recent memories of FanTaSy beasting it in the hybrid-era of Brood War get the best of you. While FanTaSy matched some of the more noticeable achievements that Stork has managed to get in his career, their overall body of work is not comparable, you're just comparing the two after FanTaSy made a name for himself in 2008, without realizing Stork had about three years of solid performance before that happened. It's not a case like Bisu versus Stork where it's a choice between insanely high peak performances, or overall longetivity and excellence. I could go over the numbers, but I think the appreciation of the longetivity Stork enjoyed throughout his career is being criminally underrated with this comparison, so I won't bother. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
Guess nobody got the joke. And here I thought I understood the meta. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
I haven't watched broodwar for very long, the July vs. Best was the first series that I really watched so I wasn't around for much of his career but looking at his accomplishments I think he deserves to be mentioned more. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
On December 29 2016 23:29 Foxxan wrote: Wasnt july overrated actually? I mean, his gamestyle revolved alot around all-ins? I mostly remember the late game sauron-zerg style of his. But I didn't watch a lot of his games so I might be totally wrong about that. But either way, a win is a win. If your strategy keeps winning it doesn't matter if it is considered cheap or easy or whatever. Look at liquipedia: The 1st Zerg to become No.1 in KeSPA Ranking and held that position for 11 months. The 1st Zerg to win the Golden Mouse. Holds the 1st and 2nd title in OSL for Zerg. Perfected the modern Muta micro technique. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
He won the 2004 Gillette OSL, 2008 EVER OSL, and made his last Ro16 in the 2009 Batoo OSL. It's rare to see that 6 year span in pre-2005, because it was a different style and that would mean one matched much younger, more modern players. The only other players who made a Ro16 in pre-2005 one in 2009 are GGPlay, Midas, Savior and NaDa. NaDa did even better than that as he made his first Ro8 in the 2002 KPGA 1st Tour and his last Ro8 in the 2009 Lost Saga MSL. Midas was 2004-2010 for his last. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On December 29 2016 09:35 Miragee wrote: Jangbi must be a bonjwa, that's how it's relevant. Exactly this | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 29 2016 23:29 Foxxan wrote: Wasnt july overrated actually? I mean, his gamestyle revolved alot around all-ins? If iloveoov and sAviOr are cases of players whose entire careers are basically built off being approximately three years ahead of their time in terms of strategy, July was the case of someone who built his career off having micromanagement tricks approximately two years ahead of his time. He first showcased mutalisk micromanagement against Ever)T(Byul on Xeno Sky in April 2004, a month or so before his meteoric rise to fame in Gillette OGN StarLeague. There are no available VODs of that game, so I'll just link some of the mutalisk micromagement he displayed in Gielltte OGN StarLeague. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how the commentators are spazzing out over the mutalisk micromanagement, saying July looks like the best zerg ever, which is incredible considering he was a rookie. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + The following VOD is the mutalisk micromanagement half a year before July popularized the mineral stacking technique for mutalisks on the very same map by SaferZerg. Notice the lack of stacking, and the lack of damage dealt by the mutalisks, which was common for its era. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100210473626 Alongside his new revolutionary utilization of mutalisks that would change the match-up forever, he showcased some impeccable lurker-zergling micromanagement, to overcome top terrans such as XellOs and iloveoov for his debut OGN StarLeague title, which was the 1st OGN StarLeague won by a zerg player more than four years past its incarnation. Even one year past this, only July was able to use mutalisks to their maximum potential. GoRush, the second best zerg in this era (won YATGK MSL), known more for his strategical mind than pure mechanical ability, was unable to use mutalisks to the same degree. Notice how the difference in quality of how GoRush uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball, and how July uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball. 2005 ZvT games of GoRush (IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + 2005 ZvT game of July (EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + After the revolutionary discovery of the overlord stacking trick discovered by Shark (probably the most influential micromanagement discovery in the history of the game), the level of mutalisk micromanagement quickly caught up to July's standards, who used to manually stack his mutalisks, and still performed reasonably acceptable levels of mutalisk micromanagement even by today's standards. He was probably still the best mutalisk user in 2006 after the fast spread of the overlord stacking trick, as shown by the VOD below. + Show Spoiler + Notice how smooth he is able to perform compared to sAviOr, the best zerg player of 2006. + Show Spoiler + Due to the new method of mutalisk micromanagement, Jaedong was the superior mutalisk user by 2007, but July was the guy who represented mutalisks from 2004 to 2006. It's not just ZvT he influenced with his revolutionary mutalisk usage, he changed the landscape of ZvZ by making it a battle of mutalisk micromanagement, and making strategies such as zergling and scourge only compositions obsolete with urinating all over it with his mutalisk micromanagement. + Show Spoiler + Notice how GoRush thinks he has July with his mass scourge, only to be outclassed in almost every single manner with the micromanagement from July. GoRush at the time had a career ZvZ record of 60-32, and was considered as one of the best, if not the best, ZvZ masters of all time. July changed the entire landscape of ZvZ, by transforming it into the match-up with the highest level of importance for micromanagement. It's why players who had godlike micromanagement like Jaedong dominated ZvZ unlike the previous generation of ZvZ gods such as GoRush, ZergMaN who were not exactly famous for their micromanagement. It's not just mutalisks usage July is famous for. July also revolutionized the way zergs reacted to bunker rushes with his impeccable drone micro. Watch how YellOw, considered the greatest zerg of all time before July came along, reacted to the bunker rush of BoxeR in 2004. + Show Spoiler + BoxeR at the time had prepared this strategy with July, who was able to stop it during practice approximately half the time. Notice when BoxeR does this against July in a televised setting a couple of months later, July shows off a master class of how to stop a bunker rush. + Show Spoiler + Look how smoothly July is able to stop the rush with good placement, use of mineral stacking, and drone movement to stop the rush. If not for this particular technique created by July, terran would have been unstoppable with these rushes, as SCVs and drones, if they are just battling one another by attack moving, have huge disparities in battling capabilities. These are some of the legacies July left behind, without going into details about the difficulties outside of the game he had to face, the trophies and accolades he gathered throughout his career, and the times he spent as the absolute number one player of the entire scene. The assessment you gave July probably comes from the fact that July was outclassed in terms of skill, and needed to pull off something special in order to have major success in his final few years of Brood War. Remember, this was some random 15 year old kid, that was trying his luck in the professional scene in 2002. Can you imagine the change he went through by the time he was playing versus BeSt in 2008? He was playing the likes of IntoTheRain, ZeuS, and Kingdom when he was breaking out. Are you trying to judge him as a player three years after his prime? No other player in history gave me the chills quite like July was able to do. Even when he was almost outcast from the scene, had numerous inner turmoils that almost made him quit the game entirely, he came back, and won his well deserved Golden Mouse in 2008. You have no idea how infuriating it was to see this new wave of viewerbase who only just entered the scene, trying to paint this picture of July as a player based on their personal limited viewing experience. You can make light of his twilight years as a professional, when he was broken from all hardships he went through, but not when he was the shit. He was electrifying as a player, and probably would have gone on to achieve so much more if he had the looks of BoxeR, or Bisu. Still, being one of the four Golden Mouse winners in history, winning KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League (the tournament for the biggest overall prize pool in history), going to more OGN StarLeague finals than all the other Golden Mouse winners, having the highest career ZvP win rate in history, and dragging his sponsorless, shitty team until they finally won a ProLeague championship are all things he can be proud of achieving. Objectively speaking? sAviOr achieved a little more, but that kid had the world handed to him, with the decent looks, never-ending adulation from his army of fans, godly mind for the game, sky high talent, and the team full of amazing practice partners and one of the most professional environments created in the Brood War realm. July had nothing. Literally nothing. But to achieve all those things, and being called overrated years later, that's the kind of stuff that'll make me roll in my grave. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
On December 30 2016 12:35 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + If iloveoov and sAviOr are cases of players whose entire careers are basically built off being approximately three years ahead of their time in terms of strategy, July was the case of someone who built his career off having micromanagement tricks approximately two years ahead of his time. He first showcased mutalisk micromanagement against Ever)T(Byul on Xeno Sky in April 2004, a month or so before July meteoric rise to fame in Gillette OGN StarLeague. There are no available VODs of that game, so I'll just link some of the mutalisk micromagement he displayed in Gielltte OGN StarLeague. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how the commentators are spazzing out over the mutalisk micromanagement, saying July looks like the best zerg ever, which is incredible considering he was a rookie. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvbb-yBmcbQ + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V34qZmA2qmE The following VOD is the mutalisk micromanagement half a year before July popularized the mineral stacking technique for mutalisks on the very same map by SaferZerg. Notice the lack of stacking, and the lack of damage dealt by the mutalisks, which was common for its era. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100210473626 Alongside his new revolutionary utilization of mutalisks that would change the match-up forever, he showcased some impeccable lurker-zergling micromanagement, to overcome top terrans such as XellOs and iloveoov for his debut OGN StarLeague title, which was the 1st OGN StarLeague won by a zerg player more than four years past its incarnation. Even one year past this, only July was able to use mutalisks to their maximum potential. GoRush, the second best zerg in this era (won YATGK MSL), known more for his strategical mind than pure mechanical ability, was unable to use mutalisks to the same degree. Notice how the difference in quality of how GoRush uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball, and how July uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball. 2005 ZvT games of GoRush (IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXZzjjJv_M + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuM_AtmT58 2005 ZvT game of July (EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzHK7GpTv8A + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhsE6wYPttg After the revolutionary discovery of the overlord stacking trick discovered by Shark (probably the most influential micromanagement discovery in the history of the game), the level of mutalisk micromanagement quickly caught up to July's standards, who used to manually stack his mutalisks, and still performed reasonably acceptable levels of mutalisk micromanagement even by today's standards. He was probably still the best mutalisk user in 2006 after the fast spread of the overlord stacking trick, as shown by the VOD below. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XESrk5z6iAc Notice how smooth he is able to perform compared to sAviOr, the best zerg player of 2006. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBrlQOZjUKk Due to the new method of mutalisk micromanagement, Jaedong was the superior mutalisk user by 2007, but July was the guy who represented mutalisks from 2004 to 2006. It's not just ZvT he influenced with his revolutionary mutalisk usage, he changed the landscape of ZvZ by making it a battle of mutalisk micromanagement, and making strategies such as zergling and scourge only compositions obsolete with urinating all over it with his mutalisk micromanagement. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6w6W15Cgsg Notice how GoRush thinks he has July with his mass scourge, only to be outclassed in almost every single manner with the micromanagement from July. GoRush at the time had a career ZvZ record of 60-32, and was considered as one of the best, if not the best, ZvZ masters of all time. July changed the entire landscape of ZvZ, by transforming it into the match-up with the highest level of importance for micromanagement. It's why players who had godlike micromanagement like Jaedong dominated ZvZ unlike the previous generation of ZvZ gods such as GoRush, ZergMaN who were not exactly famous for their micromanagement. It's not just mutalisks usage July is famous for. July also revolutionized the way zergs reacted to bunker rushes with his impeccable drone micro. Watch how YellOw, considered the greatest zerg of all time before July came along, reacted to the bunker rush of BoxeR in 2004. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI4U0daet3k BoxeR at the time had prepared this strategy with July, who was able to stop it during practice approximately half the time. Notice when BoxeR does this against July in a televised setting a couple of months later, July shows off a master class of how to stop a bunker rush. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpXLkynnP4 Look how smoothly July is able to stop the rush with good placement, use of mineral stacking, and drone movement to stop the rush. If not for this particular technique created by July, terran would have been unstoppable with these rushes, as SCVs and drones, if they are just battling one another by attack moving, have huge disparities in battling capabilities. These are some of the legacies July left behind, without going into details about the difficulties outside of the game he had to face, the trophies and accolades he gathered throughout his career, and the times he spent as the absolute number one player of the entire scene. The assessment you gave July probably comes from the fact that July was outclassed in terms of skill, and needed to pull off something special in order to have major success in his final few years of Brood War. Remember, this was some random 15 year old kid, that was trying his luck in the professional scene in 2002. Can you imagine the change he went through by the time he was playing versus BeSt in 2008? He was playing the likes of IntoTheRain, ZeuS, and Kingdom when he was breaking out. Are you trying to judge him as a player three years after his prime? No other player in history gave me the chills quite like July was able to do. Even when he was almost outcast from the scene, had numerous inner turmoils that almost made him quit the game entirely, he came back, and won his well deserved Golden Mouse in 2008. You have no idea how infuriating it was to see this new wave of viewerbase who only just entered the scene, trying to paint this picture of July as a player based on their personal limited viewing experience. You can make light of his twilight years as a professional, when he was broken from all hardships he went through, but not when he was the shit. He was electrifying as a player, and probably would have gone on to achieve so much more if he had the looks of BoxeR, or Bisu. Still, being one of the four Golden Mouse winners in history, winning KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League (the tournament for the biggest overall prize pool in history), going to more OGN StarLeague finals than any other player in history, having the highest career ZvP win rate in history, and dragging his sponsorless, shitty team until they finally won a ProLeague championship are all things he can be proud of achieving. Objectively speaking? sAviOr achieved a little more, but that kid had the world handed to him, with the decent looks, never-ending adulation from his army of fans, godly mind for the game, sky high talent, and the team full of amazing practice partners and one of the most professional environments created in the Brood War realm. July had nothing. Literally nothing. But to achieve all those things, and being called overrated years later, that's the kind of stuff that'll make me roll in my grave. If you really wrote all that just now to respond to that, my hat is off. That could easily be a top level retrospective of July's career. July was before I started following the scene, so I learned a lot from the post. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On December 30 2016 12:35 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + If iloveoov and sAviOr are cases of players whose entire careers are basically built off being approximately three years ahead of their time in terms of strategy, July was the case of someone who built his career off having micromanagement tricks approximately two years ahead of his time. He first showcased mutalisk micromanagement against Ever)T(Byul on Xeno Sky in April 2004, a month or so before July meteoric rise to fame in Gillette OGN StarLeague. There are no available VODs of that game, so I'll just link some of the mutalisk micromagement he displayed in Gielltte OGN StarLeague. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how the commentators are spazzing out over the mutalisk micromanagement, saying July looks like the best zerg ever, which is incredible considering he was a rookie. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvbb-yBmcbQ + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V34qZmA2qmE The following VOD is the mutalisk micromanagement half a year before July popularized the mineral stacking technique for mutalisks on the very same map by SaferZerg. Notice the lack of stacking, and the lack of damage dealt by the mutalisks, which was common for its era. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100210473626 Alongside his new revolutionary utilization of mutalisks that would change the match-up forever, he showcased some impeccable lurker-zergling micromanagement, to overcome top terrans such as XellOs and iloveoov for his debut OGN StarLeague title, which was the 1st OGN StarLeague won by a zerg player more than four years past its incarnation. Even one year past this, only July was able to use mutalisks to their maximum potential. GoRush, the second best zerg in this era (won YATGK MSL), known more for his strategical mind than pure mechanical ability, was unable to use mutalisks to the same degree. Notice how the difference in quality of how GoRush uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball, and how July uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball. 2005 ZvT games of GoRush (IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXZzjjJv_M + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuM_AtmT58 2005 ZvT game of July (EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzHK7GpTv8A + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhsE6wYPttg After the revolutionary discovery of the overlord stacking trick discovered by Shark (probably the most influential micromanagement discovery in the history of the game), the level of mutalisk micromanagement quickly caught up to July's standards, who used to manually stack his mutalisks, and still performed reasonably acceptable levels of mutalisk micromanagement even by today's standards. He was probably still the best mutalisk user in 2006 after the fast spread of the overlord stacking trick, as shown by the VOD below. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XESrk5z6iAc Notice how smooth he is able to perform compared to sAviOr, the best zerg player of 2006. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBrlQOZjUKk Due to the new method of mutalisk micromanagement, Jaedong was the superior mutalisk user by 2007, but July was the guy who represented mutalisks from 2004 to 2006. It's not just ZvT he influenced with his revolutionary mutalisk usage, he changed the landscape of ZvZ by making it a battle of mutalisk micromanagement, and making strategies such as zergling and scourge only compositions obsolete with urinating all over it with his mutalisk micromanagement. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6w6W15Cgsg Notice how GoRush thinks he has July with his mass scourge, only to be outclassed in almost every single manner with the micromanagement from July. GoRush at the time had a career ZvZ record of 60-32, and was considered as one of the best, if not the best, ZvZ masters of all time. July changed the entire landscape of ZvZ, by transforming it into the match-up with the highest level of importance for micromanagement. It's why players who had godlike micromanagement like Jaedong dominated ZvZ unlike the previous generation of ZvZ gods such as GoRush, ZergMaN who were not exactly famous for their micromanagement. It's not just mutalisks usage July is famous for. July also revolutionized the way zergs reacted to bunker rushes with his impeccable drone micro. Watch how YellOw, considered the greatest zerg of all time before July came along, reacted to the bunker rush of BoxeR in 2004. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI4U0daet3k BoxeR at the time had prepared this strategy with July, who was able to stop it during practice approximately half the time. Notice when BoxeR does this against July in a televised setting a couple of months later, July shows off a master class of how to stop a bunker rush. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpXLkynnP4 Look how smoothly July is able to stop the rush with good placement, use of mineral stacking, and drone movement to stop the rush. If not for this particular technique created by July, terran would have been unstoppable with these rushes, as SCVs and drones, if they are just battling one another by attack moving, have huge disparities in battling capabilities. These are some of the legacies July left behind, without going into details about the difficulties outside of the game he had to face, the trophies and accolades he gathered throughout his career, and the times he spent as the absolute number one player of the entire scene. The assessment you gave July probably comes from the fact that July was outclassed in terms of skill, and needed to pull off something special in order to have major success in his final few years of Brood War. Remember, this was some random 15 year old kid, that was trying his luck in the professional scene in 2002. Can you imagine the change he went through by the time he was playing versus BeSt in 2008? He was playing the likes of IntoTheRain, ZeuS, and Kingdom when he was breaking out. Are you trying to judge him as a player three years after his prime? No other player in history gave me the chills quite like July was able to do. Even when he was almost outcast from the scene, had numerous inner turmoils that almost made him quit the game entirely, he came back, and won his well deserved Golden Mouse in 2008. You have no idea how infuriating it was to see this new wave of viewerbase who only just entered the scene, trying to paint this picture of July as a player based on their personal limited viewing experience. You can make light of his twilight years as a professional, when he was broken from all hardships he went through, but not when he was the shit. He was electrifying as a player, and probably would have gone on to achieve so much more if he had the looks of BoxeR, or Bisu. Still, being one of the four Golden Mouse winners in history, winning KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League (the tournament for the biggest overall prize pool in history), going to more OGN StarLeague finals than any other player in history, having the highest career ZvP win rate in history, and dragging his sponsorless, shitty team until they finally won a ProLeague championship are all things he can be proud of achieving. Objectively speaking? sAviOr achieved a little more, but that kid had the world handed to him, with the decent looks, never-ending adulation from his army of fans, godly mind for the game, sky high talent, and the team full of amazing practice partners and one of the most professional environments created in the Brood War realm. July had nothing. Literally nothing. But to achieve all those things, and being called overrated years later, that's the kind of stuff that'll make me roll in my grave. Thanks for the read. All your posts are very interesting, for your last comparison between July and Yellow on how to stop a bunker rush, Boxer's openings are not the same in those games, he commits much less with his bunker rush vs July so I cannot really see any significant difference in the micro departement, both Z's try to go for the Marines but it is obviously much harder to get to them when there are 6-7 SCVs instead of 2. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:43 Cryoc wrote: Thanks for the read. All your posts are very interesting, for your last comparison between July and Yellow on how to stop a bunker rush, Boxer's openings are not the same in those games, he commits much less with his bunker rush vs July so I cannot really see any significant difference in the micro departement, both Z's try to go for the Marines but it is obviously much harder to get to them when there are 6-7 SCVs instead of 2. There are multiple cases of players such as Silent_Control, and BoxeR who used bunkering to great success. There were almost zero cases of the zerg successfully defending against them with superior drone micromanagement. Notice how July slides his drones into superior position, and surrounds the marines, instead of fighting against SCVs, by clicking the vespene gas, or mineral fields. YellOw, and other top zergs of the era such as JJu, didn't have this technique fully mastered, and you'll notice YellOw fights against SCVs instead of surrounding the marines, and trying to position the drones so that additional marines coming from the barracks can be cut off. These are all basic techniques that July first showed on television. I'll link some more if you want varying degrees of commitment from the terran player. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + YellOw himself commented that he didn't have this technique mastered, which is why he lost that infamous semi-finals against BoxeR 0-3. He didn't know where to position the drones, when the initiate the fight if the marines were mispositioned, when to back off and try to cut off reinforcements, and which situations he could just counter the enemy base. All these basic concepts were mastered by July as early as 2004, who practiced against these early builds extensively. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The above game was July trying to carry his team by playing terran when he couldn't play anymore games for his team as a zerg player. Can you imagine such a thing happening with modern day players? Can you imagine the burden of competing in multiple tournaments with everyone gunning for you, without any practice due to how much you wanted your team to make it? Against hard opponents like SK Telecom T1, July would literally put the team on his back, and play four out of the five possible matches (regular 1v1 match, two 2v2 matches, and the ACE match). July had nothing going for him. He did everything he could, and even when he could have sold out to go to teams like SK Telecom T1 when they realized his potential, he stuck with his team, and envisioned a future where he could build a lasting legacy as the leader of a championship winning team. All the players we are familiar with today, such as Sea, or Bisu benefited from the enormous sacrifices July made to draw interests from sponsors and creating another environment future talent could develop under. July, after years of slaving away for his team, giving up his chance for an easy out to be successful on a more established team, finally succeeded in leading MBC Game HERO to their only ProLeague championships in late 2006, against CJ Entus and won the play-offs MVP. He finally defeated his arch-nemesis iloveoov in the ProLeague Grand Finals to take the thrown away from the ProLeague empire of SK Telecom T1 for the first time since Ongamenet and MBC Game joined forces to create a unified ProLeague in 2005. It would be the last ProLeague championship MBC Game HERO would ever have in their entire history. After all his sacrifice for his team, MBC Game HERO, the reigning champions, decided that July wasn't good looking enough to be their main star, and gathered the limited resources they had, and poured it all into Bisu, who took the spotlight by defeating sAviOr in the most dramatic way possible. July, after dragging his worthless piece of shit team that barely qualified as a professional team past the qualification rounds for the ProLeague, and stuck it out until they finally became champions at the cost of his own career, was hung out to dry. It was time to invest in the pretty boy who get the praise from the media. July wasn't popular enough to warantee a high salary despite everything he did. What was the two time MSL championship winner Bisu's record now that he took the highest salary on this championship winning team? 29th most wins in the regular season in R1, 40th most wins in the regular season in R2, and fails to lead his team to vicotry in the play-offs, boasting a 33% win rate in the play-off stages. Doesn't matter though right? Bisu had the gorgeous looks. Everything he touched was gold according to his obnoxious fanbase. All his failures were alright despite Bisu being more fortunate with his circumstances than most professional gamers in history. July nearly quits progaming due to how betrayed he felt, and becomes disillusioned with everything. Bisu goes to SK Telecom T1, and MBC Game HERO becomes one of the joke teams in the ProLeague wasting the talents of players such as Sea by telling him there's no point of winning the ProLeague because they don't have the funds to support him any more than they do now. Despite that, July still finds it within himself to win an additional OGN StarLeague, and tries to perform even without the pure burning passion he once had for the game. If that's the only memory you have of July, by golly you need to do your research before calling him overrated. I literally want to kill someone anytime someone makes light of July without having the slightest clue of what the guy represented. | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 30 2016 16:28 Zera wrote: Letmelose, are you some kind of walking BW wikipedia or something? You seem to know everything. Such a good read Following the scene casually since 2003, and being fluent in both languages help, there tends to be more information readily available in Korean, although much has been lost since professional Brood War came to an end. There's stuff to learn by being on this site also, I think I actually read about Daezang's new method of playstyle on Team Liquid first. Just reading stuff on communities such as PGR21, DCInside, Fighterforum, FOMOS, YGOSU, and Team Liquid, over ten years makes it easier to go back and search for information if a topic of interest comes up. I'm really out of my depth with the 1st generation of professional players, but nobody ever discusses them ever except for BoxeR who is the only one to really survive into the modern day era. Even on Korean forums, much of the in-depth discussion about those days are lost with certain sites shutting down, and much of the records from those days are gone forever, including exact bracket details, and VODs. I tried my best to gather information from those times, but it's an exercise in futility in my opinion. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24579 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10092 Posts
On December 30 2016 16:28 Zera wrote: Letmelose, are you some kind of walking BW wikipedia or something? You seem to know everything. Such a good read Give him dictionary icon | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden304 Posts
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
I was trying to find an old article about Daezang and the PVZ revolution he started, i thought Plexa made a TLFE abuot it, but i can't find it. Anyway, this thread is like a huge article about pro BW thanks to you and i'm keeping it in my favorite pages for sure ! I followed BW since 2001, my first OSL was Coca Cola, so i know a little bit about BW history, but when i'm reading you, it feels like i know nothing Thanks for your input on July, he doesn't get enough love. His 3/2 victory over Oov in Gillette was probably the biggest upset i can remember in BW (and the nicest as far as i'm concerned). His 3/2 victory over GoodFriend was also an incredible moment. And about bunker rushes, i think you could have gone with this beauty of counter attack against Xellos on Forte: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/1457_July_vs_XellOs/vod Just when you think he's doomed because he missed the drone micro, he finds another path to victory. I remember that game very well, almost 10 years from it. Still, i think you're a little hard on Savior and Bisu. The whole Bonjwa thing isn't only about trophies and stats. I think there a mystical approach to it, just like the OSL curse or legend of the fall, there's something about history repeting itself. When Nada came, he was the young fearless kid with better macro who owned Boxer, won 3 MSLs (or KPGA tours as they were called), had trouble qualifying for OSL and finally managed to win the biggest prize of all when he did. Then Oov came, Nada became his bitch, his macro was on another level, he won 3 MSLs and after some trouble with OSL, finally won the big prize himself. Then Savior came and repeated almost the same story, his macro was different from other zergs (one could make a point about Gorush right here, but Gorush, as good as he was, never managed to maintain his mental strength long enough to become the best), he won 3 MSLs (not in a row, but made 4 finals in a row) and then, after so many setbacks, qualify for OSL and wins it. On his path to glory, he made Oov look has been, destroying him on many opportunities. I think Bisu's fans hoped he would follow this path, but even though he made Savior look bad, became a role model for other protoss players, and won 3 MSLs in 4 finals, he never climbed that last step to glory. The times had changed and it was the same with OSL curse, when Nada broke it by coming back into the final (only to lose to... Savior) and the same with legend of the fall, no protoss won an OSL for 3 years. Suddenly it wasn't about individual leagues, Proleague became a bigger prize and teams and players modified their approach of the game. Savior was the final bonjwa because he fits the storyline, not because he was the last dominant player. Jaedong and Flash (and maybe one could make a case for Bisu) were far more dominant imo, but their dominance didn't fit the legend of old times, so they couldn't take that title that corresponds to a certain path to glory. And Savior certainly didn't carry his team on his back as much as July (Xellos did most of it for GO) but he carried it to sponsorship and was instrumental into making BW a bigger and more professional game. In the end, he hurt the game as much as he made it grow which is a shame, but I still love his style and the feeling he gave especially against terran, he was walking a tight rope, falling was easy but somehow he managed to walk to victory just like it was the normal thing to do. His series against Nada, Iris, Hwasin... awesome memories | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
It comforts me actually, it's not always easy to agree with someone on BW history ! | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 30 2016 12:35 Letmelose wrote: If iloveoov and sAviOr are cases of players whose entire careers are basically built off being approximately three years ahead of their time in terms of strategy, July was the case of someone who built his career off having micromanagement tricks approximately two years ahead of his time. He first showcased mutalisk micromanagement against Ever)T(Byul on Xeno Sky in April 2004, a month or so before his meteoric rise to fame in Gillette OGN StarLeague. There are no available VODs of that game, so I'll just link some of the mutalisk micromagement he displayed in Gielltte OGN StarLeague. If you can understand Korean, you'll notice how the commentators are spazzing out over the mutalisk micromanagement, saying July looks like the best zerg ever, which is incredible considering he was a rookie. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvbb-yBmcbQ + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V34qZmA2qmE The following VOD is the mutalisk micromanagement half a year before July popularized the mineral stacking technique for mutalisks on the very same map by SaferZerg. Notice the lack of stacking, and the lack of damage dealt by the mutalisks, which was common for its era. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100210473626 Alongside his new revolutionary utilization of mutalisks that would change the match-up forever, he showcased some impeccable lurker-zergling micromanagement, to overcome top terrans such as XellOs and iloveoov for his debut OGN StarLeague title, which was the 1st OGN StarLeague won by a zerg player more than four years past its incarnation. Even one year past this, only July was able to use mutalisks to their maximum potential. GoRush, the second best zerg in this era (won YATGK MSL), known more for his strategical mind than pure mechanical ability, was unable to use mutalisks to the same degree. Notice how the difference in quality of how GoRush uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball, and how July uses mutalisks to stop the terran death ball. 2005 ZvT games of GoRush (IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXZzjjJv_M + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcuM_AtmT58 2005 ZvT game of July (EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague) + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzHK7GpTv8A + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhsE6wYPttg After the revolutionary discovery of the overlord stacking trick discovered by Shark (probably the most influential micromanagement discovery in the history of the game), the level of mutalisk micromanagement quickly caught up to July's standards, who used to manually stack his mutalisks, and still performed reasonably acceptable levels of mutalisk micromanagement even by today's standards. He was probably still the best mutalisk user in 2006 after the fast spread of the overlord stacking trick, as shown by the VOD below. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XESrk5z6iAc Notice how smooth he is able to perform compared to sAviOr, the best zerg player of 2006. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBrlQOZjUKk Due to the new method of mutalisk micromanagement, Jaedong was the superior mutalisk user by 2007, but July was the guy who represented mutalisks from 2004 to 2006. It's not just ZvT he influenced with his revolutionary mutalisk usage, he changed the landscape of ZvZ by making it a battle of mutalisk micromanagement, and making strategies such as zergling and scourge only compositions obsolete with urinating all over it with his mutalisk micromanagement. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6w6W15Cgsg Notice how GoRush thinks he has July with his mass scourge, only to be outclassed in almost every single manner with the micromanagement from July. GoRush at the time had a career ZvZ record of 60-32, and was considered as one of the best, if not the best, ZvZ masters of all time. July changed the entire landscape of ZvZ, by transforming it into the match-up with the highest level of importance for micromanagement. It's why players who had godlike micromanagement like Jaedong dominated ZvZ unlike the previous generation of ZvZ gods such as GoRush, ZergMaN who were not exactly famous for their micromanagement. It's not just mutalisks usage July is famous for. July also revolutionized the way zergs reacted to bunker rushes with his impeccable drone micro. Watch how YellOw, considered the greatest zerg of all time before July came along, reacted to the bunker rush of BoxeR in 2004. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI4U0daet3k BoxeR at the time had prepared this strategy with July, who was able to stop it during practice approximately half the time. Notice when BoxeR does this against July in a televised setting a couple of months later, July shows off a master class of how to stop a bunker rush. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpXLkynnP4 Look how smoothly July is able to stop the rush with good placement, use of mineral stacking, and drone movement to stop the rush. If not for this particular technique created by July, terran would have been unstoppable with these rushes, as SCVs and drones, if they are just battling one another by attack moving, have huge disparities in battling capabilities. These are some of the legacies July left behind, without going into details about the difficulties outside of the game he had to face, the trophies and accolades he gathered throughout his career, and the times he spent as the absolute number one player of the entire scene. The assessment you gave July probably comes from the fact that July was outclassed in terms of skill, and needed to pull off something special in order to have major success in his final few years of Brood War. Remember, this was some random 15 year old kid, that was trying his luck in the professional scene in 2002. Can you imagine the change he went through by the time he was playing versus BeSt in 2008? He was playing the likes of IntoTheRain, ZeuS, and Kingdom when he was breaking out. Are you trying to judge him as a player three years after his prime? No other player in history gave me the chills quite like July was able to do. Even when he was almost outcast from the scene, had numerous inner turmoils that almost made him quit the game entirely, he came back, and won his well deserved Golden Mouse in 2008. You have no idea how infuriating it was to see this new wave of viewerbase who only just entered the scene, trying to paint this picture of July as a player based on their personal limited viewing experience. You can make light of his twilight years as a professional, when he was broken from all hardships he went through, but not when he was the shit. He was electrifying as a player, and probably would have gone on to achieve so much more if he had the looks of BoxeR, or Bisu. Still, being one of the four Golden Mouse winners in history, winning KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League (the tournament for the biggest overall prize pool in history), going to more OGN StarLeague finals than any other player in history, having the highest career ZvP win rate in history, and dragging his sponsorless, shitty team until they finally won a ProLeague championship are all things he can be proud of achieving. Objectively speaking? sAviOr achieved a little more, but that kid had the world handed to him, with the decent looks, never-ending adulation from his army of fans, godly mind for the game, sky high talent, and the team full of amazing practice partners and one of the most professional environments created in the Brood War realm. July had nothing. Literally nothing. But to achieve all those things, and being called overrated years later, that's the kind of stuff that'll make me roll in my grave. Great read, and I like and appreciate July, too. But one point of clarification: Didn't Boxer go to more OSL finals (6) than July did (5)? I think Fantasy is also tied with him at 5. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 30 2016 21:26 ~chut~ wrote: I always love when you come to TL Letmelose I was trying to find an old article about Daezang and the PVZ revolution he started, i thought Plexa made a TLFE abuot it, but i can't find it. Anyway, this thread is like a huge article about pro BW thanks to you and i'm keeping it in my favorite pages for sure ! I followed BW since 2001, my first OSL was Coca Cola, so i know a little bit about BW history, but when i'm reading you, it feels like i know nothing Thanks for your input on July, he doesn't get enough love. His 3/2 victory over Oov in Gillette was probably the biggest upset i can remember in BW (and the nicest as far as i'm concerned). His 3/2 victory over GoodFriend was also an incredible moment. And about bunker rushes, i think you could have gone with this beauty of counter attack against Xellos on Forte: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/1457_July_vs_XellOs/vod Just when you think he's doomed because he missed the drone micro, he finds another path to victory. I remember that game very well, almost 10 years from it. Still, i think you're a little hard on Savior and Bisu. The whole Bonjwa thing isn't only about trophies and stats. I think there a mystical approach to it, just like the OSL curse or legend of the fall, there's something about history repeting itself. When Nada came, he was the young fearless kid with better macro who owned Boxer, won 3 MSLs (or KPGA tours as they were called), had trouble qualifying for OSL and finally managed to win the biggest prize of all when he did. Then Oov came, Nada became his bitch, his macro was on another level, he won 3 MSLs and after some trouble with OSL, finally won the big prize himself. Then Savior came and repeated almost the same story, his macro was different from other zergs (one could make a point about Gorush right here, but Gorush, as good as he was, never managed to maintain his mental strength long enough to become the best), he won 3 MSLs (not in a row, but made 4 finals in a row) and then, after so many setbacks, qualify for OSL and wins it. On his path to glory, he made Oov look has been, destroying him on many opportunities. I think Bisu's fans hoped he would follow this path, but even though he made Savior look bad, became a role model for other protoss players, and won 3 MSLs in 4 finals, he never climbed that last step to glory. The times had changed and it was the same with OSL curse, when Nada broke it by coming back into the final (only to lose to... Savior) and the same with legend of the fall, no protoss won an OSL for 3 years. Suddenly it wasn't about individual leagues, Proleague became a bigger prize and teams and players modified their approach of the game. Savior was the final bonjwa because he fits the storyline, not because he was the last dominant player. Jaedong and Flash (and maybe one could make a case for Bisu) were far more dominant imo, but their dominance didn't fit the legend of old times, so they couldn't take that title that corresponds to a certain path to glory. And Savior certainly didn't carry his team on his back as much as July (Xellos did most of it for GO) but he carried it to sponsorship and was instrumental into making BW a bigger and more professional game. In the end, he hurt the game as much as he made it grow which is a shame, but I still love his style and the feeling he gave especially against terran, he was walking a tight rope, falling was easy but somehow he managed to walk to victory just like it was the normal thing to do. His series against Nada, Iris, Hwasin... awesome memories To be quite honest, I was a convert to the religion of sAviOr for a while (there is a strong mythical element to his fandom). I followed Stacraft casually, but didn't like how terran would win all the time. Then I saw July one fateful evening in 2004, and was instantly hooked, and started watching every professional game that I could. It's when I started to visit communities to learn more about the past history, compilation of statistics, highlight videos, and articles written by insightful fellow fans. After a while, I discovered that there were English speaking communities as well, and liked this one the best. One thing I noticed was that there was a higher percentage of IPXZerg fans on this site than on sites like Fighterforum, probably due to the impressive replays he had (this site seemed to be very dependent on replays rather than televised games due to the nature of how people consumed Brood War content), but I thought they were stupid, and told myself there was no way IPXZerg could be on the level of July with the mediocre mutalisk micromanagement that he had. Insiders within the scene, including the commentators like Kim Dong Jun would hype this new zerg player, but I saw nothing mechanically gifted about this kid, just like I saw nothing special about iloveoov compared to NaDa. Then his legendary streak began. This was when July was starting to run out of steam after devoting all his energy into making MBC Game HERO into a legitimate team, so I filled the void he left behind as the only top zerg player worth watching in the latter stages of the individual leagues by watching sAviOr. Kim Dong Jun was right. The guys on Team Liquid were right. This guy had some of the smoothest transitions within the game, and had way better defiler usage than July. He used the threat of mutalisks, not as main weapon, like July used to, but a mere means to an end, and won the game without needing to pull off miraculous micromanagement outplay, or stunning battles. He seemed to read his opponents like a book. This was when I started to play the game in secret from my parents, so I could actually understand slivers of his immense genius. The dude was so smart. He was so ahead of the other players of his era, that I thought it was a crime if NaDa ended up winning due to the map advantage he had. The more I read about the deeper meaning of his every move, and the more I understood his way of thinking, the more impressed I was. That path to his fandom was so all devouring it was almost impossible to escape. How could you not be a fan of sAviOr after the dramatic nature of his ascension to the throne, and the way in which is victories were like fine wine? The articles that came along, both in Korean, and in English were some of the most riveting, and eye-opening experiences that I had as a fan. Just being a sAviOr fan, and learning more about this player was so stimulating both on an intellectual, and emotional level. There's a reason why anyone who saw Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3 from start to finish couldn't help but fixate on the genius of sAviOr, and be intoxicated by his genius for years on end. Who doesn't know this song? Who doesn't know the name of the maps like Longinus, and Reverse Temple? Who doesn't know about that crazy BO5 he had against Iris? His nail-biting base trade against the mighty Midas? + Show Spoiler + There's a certain magnetic draw to the victories he had that makes them all the more memorable to almost everyone I know of. I agree to an extent that creating this sort of magic is the intangible aspect that separates the champions from the legends that are still remembered to this date. However, I am now of the belief that while seizing the moment is what defines a legend, some are gifted it, while others have to battle against impossible odds just to be within reach of it. Life's not fair as it is, and at least within the confines of this virtual battle-field, there's some level of justice for whoever played better on that particular day. This is what drew me to competitive gaming in the first place, there's something pure about it. Just two human beings battling to see who has mastered this craft better. Once you start to attach meaning to it, and attach value to the players depending on that meaning, this becomes another shit-fest of power struggles where might equals right. It no longer remains a pure artform unspoiled by the politics of shitty human beings. History becomes written by the victors, and those victors are the fans of the players. Forgettable players have their triumph taken away from them, and are forever banished to the hidden pages of the history books. As the 2007 season began, I started to follow Jaedong after hearing good words about him for months on end. I was more astute than before, and was ready to follow my next zerg-god, I didn't really like sAviOr, and was more of a fan of his genius, and after the meta-game caught up with him in 2007, his genius was more about different ways of getting more pussy than winning games anyhow. Jaedong reminded me of July of old, and realized that this kid had the ability to surpass both July and sAviOr. What took me back, was the level of vitriol that came from fans from sAviOr in both Korean, and English communities. They would keep comparing Jaedong to a soulless machine, a product of this generic era, and relegate him to just a mindless spamming robot that had no magic in his play like sAviOr. It wouldn't matter if Jaedong was part of the evolution in ZvP by showcasing a optimized version of five hatchery play against Bisu in 2008, they wanted more mind-blowing meta-game revolutions from him. They would ask of him to overcome impossible map imbalance that would far surpass the imbalance faced in maps like Longinus. It was just unreasonable demands of religious extremists. As a student of the zerg race, and an admirer of perfect zerg play, anybody with a sound mind could tell what sAviOr was doing past his prime was pure garbage compared to Jaedong from an objective point of view. The level of obnoxious, and extreme propaganda from these kind of fans simply wouldn't stop. It was the same for a lot of the Bisu fans as well. They wouldn't take any prisoners, and would just twist and turn any facts just to treat their idol as some kind of deity. I adopted Jaedong as my emotional replacement for July, who seemed to be broken beyond repair (both emotionally, and skill-wise), and started to appreciate the way in which Jaedong took the zerg race to a new level, albeit in a different manner to sAviOr, who seemed like a distant memory by then. However, numerous sAviOr fans (there was a lot) would just reminisce about the past, and didn't care about the evolution of the zerg race that was taking part. They were not fans of the zerg race, but the fans of the drug-like elation they felt by supporting sAviOr. We all have that player. It was July for me. BoxeR for some. Bisu for others. However, I was able to overcome that by thinking it as a passing of the torch, from one legend to another. So many sAviOr fans were clouded by their fond memories of the past, and would actively distort the truth, ignoring what was happening right in front of their eyes. They were living in the past. I noticed, nobody really seemed to be doing the same for July, and he was being forgotten. All these, good looking, memorable players were having their legacy told again, and again, with a little more spice over time, and I began to resent the way their opinions would just grow stronger over time due to the sheer number and persistence of the fans. There are a couple of players in that category, and while they earned it initially, I am kind of passionate in my attempt to ground some of the over-glorification of these kind of players. I tend to go for the hard hitting facts for Bisu more than anyone else, because, to be honest, his fans are some of the most obnoxious fans disjointed from reality. I actually think incredibly highly of Bisu, just not to the level his fans project him to be, and am forced to go a little further than I would under normal circumstances with statistics and putting his entire career under the microscope. Under such scrutiny, most players look worse than what is the consensus amongst the casual fans. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 30 2016 22:02 [[Starlight]] wrote: Great read, and I like and appreciate July, too. But one point of clarification: Didn't Boxer go to more OSL finals (6) than July did (5)? I think Fantasy is also tied with him at 5. You are correct, I was thinking about how he had the most number of finals out of the Golden Mouse winners. Will edit the post. | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
To be honest, i was already annoyed by the Boxer fanbase from the first day of watching BW, since just like you i felt terran had such a big advantage especially against zergs (and it incredibly true on those old maps used by then) that i didn't see why he was getting that much love. Of course with time i was able to distance myself from it, discover his huge influence on how to play terran, how to micro, but at that time, my boy was the only zerg that could, Yellow. The way he tried proxy sunkens on Ragnarok against Boxer in the Coca cola finals made me an instant fan. That map was rightfully considered impossible for zergs at the time and he tried something impossible but at least he tried not to lose just like any other zergs. He was the real deal. Then for years, i had to deal with his many defeats. I still hurt when i think of his 0/2 ->3/2 defeat against Nada in KPGA 2nd tour, of his defeat against Oov, especially the U-Boat game which is a classic, and of course the wonderful finals against Xellos, one of the best finals ever in my eyes, even though he ended one again the bridesmaid. He won so many side/special leagues that i can't be mad at him. I still love that he won Snickers allstars, which was a very big event, coming down from 1/2 against Nada in the final, this was a great feeling, but this elusive OSL title... He came close once again so late in his career only to lose a close series in the semis to one match up wonder Casy, once again helped by a terran favored map pool.. His ability to adapt through different era is still underappreciated imo. Chojja never impressed me, i don't know why. I never believed Junwi could do it. July, i had no choice but to become a fan, i won't go into the details because you did it so much better, but i share what you felt. When Gorush won his MSL, i felt he was going to dominate. His playstyle looked suddenly perfect, everything was coming in place. Then, Nada destroyed him mentally, while being 0/2 down, on the semi islands of dreams of Balae in a 45 minutes game where Gorush wasted many opportunities to win. He was never the same again. My hopes were crashed, but July made me feel better by winning the next OSL, against a terran to make it sweeter. Then suddenly it became the age of IPXZerg. Chojja had a small time of his own, but clearly, that guy had something else. Seeing him rise to dominance was an incredible experience. It took a while but in the end, no one could argue with the facts: it wasn't a terran but a zerg who was the undisputed best player. No matter what you could throw at him, he looked immune. It didn't last of course because nothing does, especially in BW, but that was good. Jaedong was, in a way, the last stop for zerg kings. I understand why you link him to July, his OSL wins have something in common with him, but he was already booked to be the future of zergs way before that. Remember he was in the dual tournament group with Savior, when Savior finally qualified for OSL and this group was considered group of death, with Casy and Sea in the mix. Jaedong and his incredible, admirable ZVZ. Jaedong and the He Han Timing moment, Jaedong and his perfect muta micro that tear so many marines apart... The whole power outage story is really unfortunate for him because he was perfectly playing that game and he was really prepared for Flash but the controversy hurt him even though he had nothing to do with him. Still, he played some incredibly flawless games. No other zergs looked better than him afterwards, Calm, Soulkey, Luxury, Zero... they had their moments, but none managed to make it look so powerful, so inevitable again. The Tyrant was a great nickname for him. I loved his rivalry with Flash, it was fun because i liked both players and it enjoyed every minute of their incredibly high level TVZ. BW is such a good game, i can still remember and savour all of this now, years after. Thanks you Letmelose | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On December 30 2016 21:26 ~chut~ wrote: I was trying to find an old article about Daezang and the PVZ revolution he started, i thought Plexa made a TLFE abuot it, but i can't find it. Anyway, this thread is like a huge article about pro BW thanks to you and i'm keeping it in my favorite pages for sure ! Coincidently, i had stumbled upon that article just a couple of days ago, and had bookmarked it to actually watch the daezang matches when i had the time. You probably couldn't find it cos the article is ostensibly about the 'Bisu build' But here's the link http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/65389-bisu-exposé *oh man all the vod links in it 404, and there's only 1 vod on tlpd, i'm so dissapointed | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 31 2016 14:24 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Coincidently, i had stumbled upon that article just a couple of days ago, and had bookmarked it to actually watch the daezang matches when i had the time. You probably couldn't find it cos the article is ostensibly about the 'Bisu build' But here's the link http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/65389-bisu-exposé *oh man all the vod links in it 404, and there's only 1 vod on tlpd, i'm so dissapointed Never fear, there's always a Korean nerd who collects old Starcraft VODs in his blogs. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100188900315 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/220172796769 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100197082797 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100197083006 http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100197083287 | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On December 30 2016 23:16 Letmelose wrote: There are a couple of players in that category, and while they earned it initially, I am kind of passionate in my attempt to ground some of the over-glorification of these kind of players. I tend to go for the hard hitting facts for Bisu more than anyone else, because, to be honest, his fans are some of the most obnoxious fans disjointed from reality. I actually think incredibly highly of Bisu, just not to the level his fans project him to be, and am forced to go a little further than I would under normal circumstances with statistics and putting his entire career under the microscope. Under such scrutiny, most players look worse than what is the consensus amongst the casual fans. I will preface this with the disclaimer, I am myself a giant Bisu fan. I also apologise for the incoming wall of text in advance. I think all the players who have been glorified have generally earned it, they are incredible players. But people like to have narratives, they like to have a god to idolise rather than mere mortals, that's just a failing of fandoms in general. Personally I think ALL the 'bonjwas', have been over-glorified. If you actually watch the vods of those iconic matches, the level of play is not just less impressive than it's made out to be, it's actually downright subpar by modern standards, even in the less professional post-kespa era. Yet the old Bonjwas, and the new TBLS and whatever else are still revered for their greatness, and I'm ok with this. Because it is clear, 'greatness', in the eyes of fans is not about objectively impressive play but about doing something the fans didn't think was previously possible. Players are great not because they were the best players ever, but because they did things that were amazing, exceptional and surprising at the time. They expanded the expectations of what could and couldn't be done, either through their innovation, their reading of the opponent, or through their sheer consistency and dominance over their competition. Some great players, like July have fallen through the cracks. They did things that were frankly incredible and unexpected, and haven't gotten the credit they deserve. But I don't think it's fair to try and tear down the legacy of other great players who may have a disproportionate amount of glory. There are players who deserve more credit, I don't think there are players that deserve less credit than they have + Show Spoiler + except Shine, fuck that guy, hydra busts are neither imaginative, entertaining nor hard to pull off Which brings me to my final point. Bisu. While I agree, certain parts of the fandom, who try to argue for 'bonjwa' status are deluded. Bisu was not remotely at that level of dominance, he never was, he never will be. In fact, the only person who could even be argued to have ever had that level of dominance after 03/03/07 is Flash. Jaedong had unfortunate timing, Bisu plays protoss. Protoss: That last line wasn't a throw away whine about racial imbalance. I think it is at the core of why you find Bisu fans particularly 'obnixious and disjointed from reality'. It's not just that Bisu fans seem to apply the standards they hold great players poorly and inconsistently to Bisu. It's that standards to which Bisu are held to, are different to the standards to which other great players are held to are actually, objectively different, because he plays protoss. Protoss have the closest 'favourable matchup' and the most oppressive 'unfavourable matchup'. Especially after the more defensive 'Flash Style' of TvP, Protoss are the race asked go out there and be aggressive and stop the other player from doing their thing in both matchups. This doesn't necessarily make the matchups harder, but it does make them less consistent. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uxz19.png) Being aggressive is hard, playing against defenders advantage is inconsistent. You can guess wrong, every mistake you make, is a mistake that will cost you, because simply missing an opportunity is costly when you have to be aggressive. Out of necessity, you have to use builds that exploit a weakness that you expect your opponent's build to have cos you can't just let the game run it's course, and because of that, your own builds are particularly vulnerable to anything unexpected your opponent might do. So expecting Bisu or Stork or Nal_ra or Jangbi or any protoss to have the sort of dominance that the original Bonjwa's had is... ludicrous. I agree putting up Bisu for bonjwahood is ridiculous, not only is he so ridiculously far from it that it's actually silly, it's also a terrible standard to apply to a top protoss in general. No protoss has ever been even remotely close to that level of dominance, dominance requires consistency, and top level protoss is by nature, inconsistent. We have no reason to believe any ever will or could achieve that, though we may live in hope of being proven wrong. I think between the general acknowledgement that protoss is easier at low levels, and the general attitude that used to exist in Korean Pro BW of TvZ being the marquee matchup, and the best players on each side of that matchup were amazing, and protoss... was a also thing. Has made the standards through which most people who have an interest in Pro BW define greatness, and it is one that applies poorly to what protoss fans want to see from their greats. And so Bisu fans, a great majority of whom, I would hazard, are simply protoss fans. Use an entirely different standard to greatness, as they should. What they want from their best players is hope. They want to see a level of play, if not sustained, at least hints at the possibility that one day, a protoss could have the same level of dominance as the great terran and zerg players of yore. They want to see gameplay that wows them, that makes them think of what could be. Bisu has produced by far the most of that. Bisu is a flashy player, when he plays well, it looks IMPRESSIVE, people pay attention, people can see, just for a moment, the aura of greatness. This is a very rare thing from a protoss player indeed. On top of that, many people say Bisu 'solved' PvZ with the Bisu Build. It hasn't. PvZ is pretty much as oppressive as ever. Bisu Build isn't the solution to PvZ, since pretty much 2007 the solution has been Bisu. Noone else has really built upon the Bisu build, taken it to new places. Every protoss looked to Bisu to define the entire PvZ metagame. When Bisu floundered, ridiculous builds like 4 gate goon bust appeared, but noone else ever found a successful standard from which to play PvZ at the highest level, they just do what Bisu does. He doesn't just define the modern PvZ meta, he IS the modern PvZ meta. So I read the other thread where you compared Bisu to Stork, and statistically, Stork's career isn't THAT far from Bisu's, it is difficult to distinguish yourself in a field of inconsistency. But I think that's missing the point, and you know it. Bisu is considered a much greater player because he contributes. He provides the platform for modern PvZ, his peaks of performance provides the hope that protoss players are sorely lacking. While Stork provides fairly consistent wins for protoss, which is great, he does it primarily in the already favourable matchup, and not in a way that is particularly surprising or game defining. To self importantly quote myself on the nature of greatness in BW: 'They expanded the expectations of what could and couldn't be done, either through their innovation, their reading of the opponent, or through their sheer consistency and dominance over their competition.' I think this is the real reason why Bisu fans are so attached to Bisu, and no amount of statistics are going to sway them. He genuinely provides the hope that no other protoss player provides. Edit: thx for the vod links | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
1) Bisu fans look at the few insanely peaks in his Bisu's career (his three MSL finals in a row from 2006~2007. his rejuvenation in 2008 during the era of the Six Dragons, and his two amazing ProLeague seasons in 2008/2009, and 2010/2011), and furiously ignore the instances of his noticeable failures (having a win rate of less than 50% in the ProLeague until he switched gears in the 2008/2009, failing to go past the round of 16 in individual leagues from 2009~2012). They tunnel so hard on the few high peaks, and because those peaks were comparable to some of the best performances of any player in history, try to embellish Bisu more than what he actually achieved in his career. 2) Whenever I point out Bisu's failures to point out why he wasn't as great as they make him out to be, they immediately go straight to his choice of race, and try to argue that he was limited by the limitations of his race, not as a player. When I point out Stork as an example a protoss player who could perform to a high level, with respectable ProLeague performances from 2005~2012 (a top eight protoss player even at his worst in 2006), and reaching the round of eight or above every year from 2007~2011, they immediately spazz out and point out why Stork is such an inferior player, without realizing I'm just bringing up an example of a protoss player who was not held back by his race to the degree Bisu was in terms of keeping up a reasonable level of performance throughout his entire career, across all platforms of competition. 3) I agree Bisu had more potential to be a bonjwa than any other protoss player in history (however, I'd rather talk about the tangible achievements and results, rather than the midichlorian count of players). I'm not taking that away from anyone. Bisu had clear noticeable flaws in his career that cannot be explained by his choice of race alone, but you say he struggled to separate himself from the rest of the pack due to his choice of race. Exactly why was he the 40th best player (14th best protoss player) in Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2 (try naming 39 players in general off the top of your head, it's pretty hard, and that's the number Bisu allowed to outperform him despite being a member of the ProLeague champions of the 2006 season) when he was making deep runs into both OGN StarLeague and MSL? Stork was reaching the finals of both leagues, and both semi-finals simulataneously at some points during the same era, while maintaining a top two record in the ProLeague throughout the entire 2007 season. Was Bisu affected by the inconsistency of the protoss race purely in the ProLeague, while Stork was unaffected by it until he reached the finals? There were five protoss players who managed to get top four ProLeague records between 2007~2008. Seven protoss players who reached the round of four or above in individual leagues between 2007~2008. Two protoss players were able to manage both, Stork and JangBi (for half a season in 2008). Bisu was so thoroughly mediocre in the ProLeague, in an era where the importance of the ProLeague was in direct correlation to the amount of inflation in the number of games (389 games in 2006 season, and 857 games in 2007 season). It's not just Stork that managed to get decent results across all platforms during this one and half year period, JangBi managed it too, yet Bisu was busy being worse than TheRock in the ProLeague for certain moments of this era. I don't think I need to go over why having 11 tournament streak of failing to reach the round of eight even once is inexcusable in an era where even players like Pure was reaching the round of four. If someone as thoroughly forgettable as Grape could reach the round of eight, with Pure is reaching the round of four, and the likes of Movie is reaching the finals, maybe it's Bisu's own fault, not the fault of the huge imbalance of the race that he failed again and again over a three year period. At that point it cannot be attributed to bad luck, or how his race failed him like you seem to suggest. 4) When Bisu fans are ready to accept the failures Bisu had over the years, and stop blaming the race, the map, the OGN jinx, the cheese from Shine, the weather, anything but the possibility that Bisu may not be capable of performing up to the standards expected from him day in and day out under all conditions, I'll make peace and give him the thumbs up for the fantastic career, and exciting legacy he has built for himself. Until then, it doesn't really matter how sexy Bisu looked while he was making his fans feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm going to go in hard with facts and statistics. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On December 31 2016 17:40 Letmelose wrote: This is the problem. You're more interested in making excuses for Bisu, rather than trying to own up to his limitations, move on, and enjoy his great moments and appreciate him for the great player that he is, not this fabrication that some of his fans want him to be. 1) Bisu fans look at the few insanely peaks in his Bisu's career (his three MSL finals in a row from 2006~2007. his rejuvenation in 2008 during the era of the Six Dragons, and his two amazing ProLeague seasons in 2008/2009, and 2010/2011), and furiously ignore the instances of his noticeable failures (having a win rate of less than 50% in the ProLeague until he switched gears in the 2008/2009, failing to go past the round of 16 in individual leagues from 2009~2012). They tunnel so hard on the few high peaks, and because those peaks were comparable to some of the best performances of any player in history, try to embellish Bisu more than what he actually achieved in his career. 2) Whenever I point out Bisu's failures to point out why he wasn't as great as they make him out to be, they immediately go straight to his choice of race, and try to argue that he was limited by the limitations of his race, not as a player. When I point out Stork as an example a protoss player who could perform to a high level, with respectable ProLeague performances from 2005~2012 (a top eight protoss player even at his worst in 2006), and reaching the round of eight or above every year from 2007~2011, they immediately spazz out and point out why Stork is such an inferior player, without realizing I'm just bringing up an example of a protoss player who was not held back by his race to the degree Bisu was in terms of keeping up a reasonable level of performance throughout his entire career, across all platforms of competition. 3) I agree Bisu had more potential to be a bonjwa than any other protoss player in history (however, I'd rather talk about the tangible achievements and results, rather than the midichlorian count of players). I'm not taking that away from anyone. Bisu had clear noticeable flaws in his career that cannot be explained by his choice of race alone, but you say he struggled to separate himself from the rest of the pack due to his choice of race. Exactly why was he the 40th best player (14th best protoss player) in Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2 (try naming 39 players in general off the top of your head, it's pretty hard, and that's the number Bisu allowed to outperform him despite being a member of the ProLeague champions of the 2006 season) when he was making deep runs into both OGN StarLeague and MSL? Stork was reaching the finals of both leagues, and both semi-finals simulataneously at some points during the same era, while maintaining a top two record in the ProLeague throughout the entire 2007 season. Was Bisu affected by the inconsistency of the protoss race purely in the ProLeague, while Stork was unaffected by it until he reached the finals? There were five protoss players who managed to get top four ProLeague records between 2007~2008. Seven protoss players who reached the round of four or above in individual leagues between 2007~2008. Two protoss players were able to manage both, Stork and JangBi (for half a season in 2008). Bisu was so thoroughly mediocre in the ProLeague, in an era where the importance of the ProLeague was in direct correlation to the amount of inflation in the number of games (389 games in 2006 season, and 857 games in 2007 season). It's not just Stork that managed to get decent results across all platforms during this one and half year period, JangBi managed it too, yet Bisu was busy being worse than TheRock in the ProLeague for certain moments of this era. I don't think I need to go over why having 11 tournament streak of failing to reach the round of eight even once is inexcusable in an era where even players like Pure was reaching the round of four. If the likes of Pure is reaching the round of four, and someone like Movie is reaching the finals, maybe it's Bisu's own fault, not the fault of the huge imbalance of the race that he failed again and again over a three year period. At that point it cannot be attributed to bad luck, or how his race failed him like you seem to suggest. 4) When Bisu fans are ready to accept the failures Bisu had over the years, and stop blaming the race, the map, the OGN jinx, the cheese from Shine, the weather, anything but the possibility that Bisu may not be capable of performing up to the standards expected from him day in and day out under all conditions, I'll make peace and give him the thumbs up for the fantastic career, and exciting legacy he has built for himself. Until then, it doesn't really matter how sexy Bisu looked while he was making his fans feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm going to go in hard with facts and statistics. I don't think you quite got the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying that Bisu's failings are because of his race. I'm saying that protoss fans have entirely different expectations and standards of greatness because of the problems inherent with top level protoss. Because if we applied the 'normal' standards that the more T/Z centric community at large applied, professional protosses, as a whole, are rather unimpressive. Different expectations which are also applied equally to other top protoss. It so happens under these different expectations, Bisu outperforms Stork by a pretty big margin. I think the people who blame literally all of Bisu's flaws on external factors are a tiny minority of his fandom. I think even among his most fanatical fans, it's pretty acknowledged that he has had slumps, and played outright bad games even when doing well. It's not that we make excuses for his shortfalls, it's that we don't particularly care about them in the long run, cos we are not expecting him (or any other protoss) to be really consistently dominant. We don't expect him to never lose in a disappointing manner, we just want him to play excellently a lot of the time. I think your point 3) is telling of the difference in priorities. You say he has had more potential to be bonjwa. But lets be honest, he was still pretty bloody far away. The point is no protoss has come even REMOTELY close to the dominance of a Bonjwa, protoss fans have no expectation of that, it's so far away from our expectations it's not even a standard we try to apply. We simply don't expect, and don't credit that sort of dominance to our top players. So it's not that that we think Bisu was perfect, and only held back from bonjwahood because he was protoss. It's that bonjwahood is so far from our expectations for any protoss, that it's simply not a measure we would think to use. Yeah, he had, and still has plenty of flaws, but we aren't going to blame his inability to achieve bonjwahood on his flaws, or hold it against him, because discrediting ANY protoss to not achieving bonjwahood would be akin to holding the inability to break the sound barrier against whomever is the fastest sprinter at the moment against them, it's simply not a reasonable standard to apply. When you accept that we have different standards and demands of protoss players, then everything else makes sense. Stork is a great player in the more conventional sense, he consistently placed well in starleagues, was a workhorse (and much of the time ace) for Samsung. But his very consistency just reinforced the mediocrity of one of the best protoss players ever in the greater scheme of professional BW. 'If that's what the career of one of the best protoss players of all time, what is the point of protoss'. Bisu (and IMO to a lesser extent also Jangbi) were the opposite of that. They were flashy, often just looking at their games, you couldn't help but be impressed. They offered the promise 'if they could just play like this all the time, maybe, just maybe...'. But they also had massive slumps, where they just simply weren't even producing passable games. I don't think too many people are deluded into thinking Bisu didn't have a slump (or two), and that he was only losing due to maps or cheese or whatever. It's just that we accept everyone has slumps, even Stork has had slumps. Consider that protoss has never had a dominant player of the era like OOV or Nada, we arn't going to measure greatness on how brief your slumps are, or how much you still win while slumping. People slump, we get over it. We are going to value players that show us that there is the potential for greatness, on people who can consistently produce games that make us go WOW, if you drop some games in between in unimpressive ways, so be it. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Being able to win, even if you're not the absolute best in terms of skill, or having the form of your life, is a quality that is just as valuable as being able to seize the moment to be etched on my minds of the fans for years to come. The best players in history had both these qualities. While Bisu was more spectacular in terms of seizing the moment and looking like the best player ever, what Stork lacked severely in that department, he made up for being able to struggle on whatever challenges he faced, and not falling flat on his face the moment things went wrong. By the way, I'm not necessarily saying Stork was better than Bisu because of these reasons, both Stork and Bisu had severe flaws to their careers to be considered the absolute greatest. However, while the insane highs that Bisu had still keeps him at three trophies, Stork's longetivity is some of the best in history regardless of race (which you keep mentioning as such a pivotal issue here). Bisu's lack of consistency over his career cannot be attributed his race alone when you consider the career Stork has managed with the very same race. These are some of the records Stork has. 1) Second most number of round of 16 appearances or above in the individual leagues after NaDa. He is above players who were around forever like BoxeR, and YellOw, and above his more flashy, memorable rivals in Flash, and Jaedong. 2) Most successful OGN StarLeague player in history in terms of being able to qualify for the round of 16. He has amassed 17 OGN StarLeague round of 16 appearances, ranging all the way from 2005, to the final OGN StarLeague in 2012. That's eight years he spent as a top player. No other players come close, not even BoxeR, widely regarded as the most successful OGN StarLeague player of all time. 3) The only player alongside Jaedong (2008~2010) to represent Korea in WCG Finals for three consecutive years. Considering you need to be a top 24 KeSPA ranked player in order to participate in WCG Korea, probably the most important off-season tournament, it represents Stork's class for the entire duration of 2007~2009. 4) The only protoss player in history to be a top ten performer of his race in the ProLeague for the entire duration of 2005~2012. He has at times, been the best performing protoss player, and even at his absolute worst, was the 8th best protoss during the regular season. 5) Has four instances of being in the round of eight or above in both individual leagues simultaneously. No other protosses in history managed to do that. Flash has managed it six times in his career, and Jaedong has four instances during his entire career also. No other player has managed that number in the entire history of the game, although we must take into account that the 1st KPGA Tournament was created in 2002, so the older generation of players are somewhat affected. However, for players such as Nal_rA, July, sAviOr, and Bisu, Stork has them beaten without any excuses being made possible. As you can see, Stork has the longetivity of not only being relevant since 2006 across all platforms of competition considered important today (OGN StarLeague, MSL, and the ProLeague), he has been able to create records that may not be amazing to you, but are amazing to me. He may have not had the clutch ability of the greatest players of all time in terms of achievements in NaDa, Jaedong, or Flash, but managed to match, or even surpass some of them in terms of longetivity and sustained excellence. Bisu, on top of being mediocre in terms of sustained excellence, doesn't quite have the extreme highs reached by the bonjwas either. At least in terms of consistency, Stork can claim to be amongst the absolute best in history. Bisu can't boast what is his trump card over Stork once we start to bring in players from the other races (which you blame his choice of race for), while Stork's strength over Bisu is something that doesn't falter that much when compared against the gods from other races. Stork's career was amazing in its own right, even if it wasn't as memorable as Bisu's. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I'm just saying once he didn't have the right circumstances to showcase his fantastic gaming ability, whether it was due to a mental block, inability to deal with the intense breaking down of his style by snipers, or unfavourable maps towards protoss, Bisu became incredibly susceptible to failure. That's not a fault of the protoss race. That's a personal issue the likes of Stork overcame with more success despite being not as good in terms of sheer gaming ability (although Stork had aspects of the game mastered much better than Bisu). Further more, there were tons of players who were more talented than they were on stage. Jaedong was one of them. I'm not going to make special excuses for Bisu just because his fans think he should have achieved more. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On December 31 2016 20:40 Letmelose wrote: By the way, I always thought of Bisu as a better player than Stork. I thought the same for JangBi also. However, absolute skill doesn't mean shit if you cannot perform on stage. Bisu was probably already one of the best protoss players in 2006 when he was rocking PGTour with his ilovejs smurf. Long time number one players of PGTour always had good performances on stage as well, like GoodFriend in 2004, or Anytime in 2005. Bisu was already making waves, and his dedication to game over the years (it would have been so easy for him to just drown in pussy and fade away with his looks and popularity) made him one of the absolute gods of the scene in terms of pure gaming ability. I'm not taking that away from him. I'm just saying once he didn't have the right circumstances to showcase his fantastic gaming ability, whether it was due to a mental block, inability to deal with the intense breaking down of his style by snipers, or unfavourable maps towards protoss, Bisu became incredibly susceptible to failure. That's not a fault of the protoss race. That's a personal issue the likes of Stork overcame with more success despite being not as good in terms of sheer gaming ability (although Stork had aspects of the game mastered much better than Bisu). Further more, there were tons of players who were more talented than they were on stage. Jaedong was one of them. I'm not going to make special excuses for Bisu just because his fans think he should have achieved more. I think there is where we mostly differ. And in this, I might not speak for the wider Bisu fandom. Achievements simply matter less for me, not nothing, but much less. It's great that Bisu has 3 MSLs, but honestly, they aren't that important to his greatness imo. If he had none or he had 5, I'd probably not feel differently. For me, it is mostly about the actual level of play. Whether the game is a normal proleague match or a Starleague final, doesn't matter that much to me, even whether or not they win doesn't matter to some extent. Although it's hard to imagine that they would be playing well if they are constantly losing of course. While Starleague finals only matter to me in the context of the level of the competition, and the pressure they are under. Yeah maybe Bisu had the talent achieve more, I don't really believe so tbh, 3 MSLs is alot, would it really help if he placed top 16, or top 8 more often? Would it make him a better or greater player? Ultimately what matters to me is the collection of excellent games he has left behind. Jaedong might have deserved more achievements too, but the end of the day, I don't think he's underrated, I mean, does anyone think he wasn't actually all that good? Does anyone NOT think he's the greatest zerg of all time, where else are you going to go from there? At the end of the day, the only player I, and I think many other people would rate above Jaedong is Flash. And Flash, I think beats Jaedong both on achievements and on level of play, both sustained and peak. So unless you want to argue JD was better than flash, I actually find it hard to see how JD could be underrated. But back to the topic at hand, yeah, Bisu might have had big slumps, and played many sloppy games besides, but at the end of the day, he has accrued 436 wins according to tlpd, pretty close to Stork's 478. And has been, at least in my opinion much more impressive on the whole, in the entirety of his games, than Stork has. Yes, Stork has won them in more important occasions, and it can be argued that the competition may have been steeper, due to being deeper in starleagues, and had to perform under greater pressure, but even while Bisu wasn't being relevant in starleagues near the end, he was still producing incredible, I would argue superior, games (in my opinion just before the farce that was the hybrid BW/SC2 season, Bisu was actually in the best form of his life). And, for me at least, producing more excellently played games is simply more important, no matter where you are doing it. Don't get me wrong, I think Stork is an excellent player, and his relevance over such a time period is not just impressive for a protoss, but just for any professional BW player period. But at the end of the day, I think, not just at their peaks, but on the whole, the entirety of Stork's gameplay in all his games, has been less impressive by a fair margin to Bisu's. To use an analogy, as artists, Stork may have been nominated for more awards, but Bisu has left, in my opinion a much more impressive body of work. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Nobody remembers the 3rd Game-Q StarLeague. Nobody who got used to the modern era of Brood War can stand the low quality games played in 2004. Nobody cares about who won 23 games in a row versus players they don't even recognize. The entire landscape of the the scene has changed and so many tournaments have died out, or changed from what it originally used to be. Bisu has almost his entire career preserved on Youtube VODs, has his entire legacy written beautifully into articles by fans both in Korean, and English, and is fresh on the minds of people by streaming daily on Afreeca. How do you compete with that level of exposure, fame, and recent performances? Of course you're going to be more impressed if you don't go by the numbers. It's like saying none of the legends from football like Di Stefano, or Pele are relevant in the discussion of the greatest football players of all time because the quality of the games back then suck so much, and the records from the past are so hard to translate into a form that is suitable to the modern day realities of professional football. Every great player in football becomes whoever has the best Youtube highlight reel in recent years, and players who have defined an era, gained more success on a objective level, are rendered useless by casual observations like, "football was so bad back then", or "why didn't Pele play in Europe, he must have sucked". I can't explain why your criteria of what is important is less relevant than mine, but I can explain how prone to bias it can be. Do you know how biased our recollections are already? It's so slanted towards the modern era. The criteria of whoeever impressed you more depends massively on your personal taste what defines a player's skill, which era you started to watch Brood War, and how extensive your viewing experience was. What if there was someone living in Korea whose household only broadcasted Ongamenet, and watched it casually only for the big games, and thought Bisu was terrible? What if he told you it doesn't matter about the numbers, and the great success Bisu had elsewhere, but what's important is his own experiences of viewing him as a dude who got stomped a couple of times in the semi-finals, never to be seen again, while JangBi was awesome with his amazing finals. Personal experience, and judgement are terrible ways of defining a player unless you have unreal amounts of insight, and exact recollection of every single second of these players in question. I understand we all have more insight than the casual viewer I just described, but you surely can see the fallacy of this method of approach. There are zero individuals who managed to not only see every single competitive game in history, but had the insider's knowledge of what went on at the time, the precise context of each of these games, and an accurate recollection that is free from bias. What you're essentially saying is that you like Bisu, and there's nothing I can say to that. Of course you like Bisu. He's the main star of the most successful franchise in Brood War history, the unlikely hero of one of the greatest upsets ever seen in the entire history of the game, high APM multi-tasking god with the face of an angel, the golden boy of the protoss race, the most popular player of the modern era, and one of the most popular Brood War streamers on Afreeca. I'm just saying, let's be honest in rating him as a professional player trying to win. Sometimes, the borders between personal admiration, and judgement on the careers of various players, get blurred, and it's so frustrating to see the personal admiration seep in and present itself as if it were a factual statement. | ||
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YumYumGranola
Canada346 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
I don't think it's quite subjective as to the point you are trying to make it out to be. Nor achievements being quite as objective as you seem to indicate. Firstly, good play isn't entirely an aesthetic thing. It's not just beautiful play, people knowledgeable about the game can tell you what sort of plays are objectively going to contribute to a likeliness of a player winning, like clean build order execution, excellent unit control etc. When you take this sort of metric to the entirety of games/careers it does get more subjective, but i don't think it boils down to who you like, or even who's playstyle you like more. There is still some, if not objective measure, at least fairly agreed upon convention to what is and what isn't good play. It is like language, while there isn't a perfect agreement on what a word may mean, there is a generally agreed upon definition of a word. People who speak that language can tell you what a word means, and what it doesn't, while their definitions won't be in perfect agreement, you can also see a general clustering of meaning, and it isn't purely subjective either. From when you said you think Bisu is actually the better player, I gather that we actually agree on this, that Bisu wins out over Stork in this department, even if the metric isn't perfectly objective. I would suspect if we managed to collect a group of people very knowledgeable about the professional BW scene, and the games of these two in particular. I think even those who are Stork fans, and aren't particularly fans of Bisu (yes this would be a very small subset) would generally agree with this, where we disagree is the importance of this particular criteria for 'greatness' compared to other criteria. As for the subjectivity of achievements. Well on the most cursory glance: Bisu has a significantly (by pro BW standards) higher win rate with a similar number of wins, three times as many starleague wins, and been a part of proleague winning team multiple times. Stork has 1 Starleague win, and alot of silver. It actually looks very bad for Stork. I would say, this is actually a fairly reasonable way to look at achievements, it's not me cherry picking their results to make it lopsided, these, I think are fairly reasonable stats to look at to see 'How can I sum up this progamer's entire career'. But we both know that it in fact tells a very biased story. On the other end of the spectrum, if you were to divide it into year by year, with ranking between protoss, Bisu's slump becomes startlingly clear, but if you were to do it to say, NaDa (compared to other terrans), his stats become very ugly, as he played on long past his prime, and becomes incredibly unfair to NaDa. I don't really think level of play comes down to how much you like someone, nor are achievements all that objective. I think both are valid ways to judge greatness and it comes down to preference of method, not necessarily the player you like. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
To some people not going deep in OSLs is a huge problem that can never excused. To some people every OSL campaign is 2 well-timed losses away from an exit and 2 games aren't something you can boil a career down to. Even when it happens time and again. To some people Proleague was "just Proleague" and games aren't trophies (and team trophies also aren't real trophies), even when you break the all time record for season wins at a ridiculous winrate. Nobody is wrong. For me, Flash is the greatest player of all time. Bisu is the only Protoss who ever showed flashes of that same greatness. The GOM S1 MSL final was unbelievably cool. It was an amazing moment in time, it was great, but it doesn't make Bisu great, at least outside that small slice of history. His 2010/2011 PL season was absolutely monstrous. It is not something that any other Protoss, or any other player outside Flash, could ever do. Not even Jaedong, somehow, despite me considering him greater than Bisu. To me, it is the most relevant period of BW history, when play was at its peak, and it is an enormous sample size and Bisu absolutely crushed it. And that's why I think he was the greatest Protoss of all time by a long way. Because nobody else could have. Ever. And you will look at that and think you've already said his 10/11 PL was amazing but is not the totality of his career and it doesn't change your perspective. And that's good. I don't think my perspective is better and I don't even want to convince you. It's just how I feel. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 00:05 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: While I agree there is a certain subjectivity, to judging purely via quality of gameplay, and would require someone to be fairly knowledgeable to be able to do it. I don't think it's quite subjective as to the point you are trying to make it out to be. Nor achievements being quite as objective as you seem to indicate. Firstly, good play isn't entirely an aesthetic thing. It's not just beautiful play, people knowledgeable about the game can tell you what sort of plays are objectively going to contribute to a likeliness of a player winning, like clean build order execution, excellent unit control etc. When you take this sort of metric to the entirety of games/careers it does get more subjective, but i don't think it boils down to who you like, or even who's playstyle you like more. There is still some, if not objective measure, at least fairly agreed upon convention to what is and what isn't good play. It is like language, while there isn't a perfect agreement on what a word may mean, there is a generally agreed upon definition of a word. People who speak that language can tell you what a word means, and what it doesn't, while their definitions won't be in perfect agreement, you can also see a general clustering of meaning, and it isn't purely subjective either. From when you said you think Bisu is actually the better player, I gather that we actually agree on this, that Bisu wins out over Stork in this department, even if the metric isn't perfectly objective. I would suspect if we managed to collect a group of people very knowledgeable about the professional BW scene, and the games of these two in particular. I think even those who are Stork fans, and aren't particularly fans of Bisu (yes this would be a very small subset) would generally agree with this, where we disagree is the importance of this particular criteria for 'greatness' compared to other criteria. As for the subjectivity of achievements. Well on the most cursory glance: Bisu has a significantly (by pro BW standards) higher win rate with a similar number of wins, three times as many starleague wins, and been a part of proleague winning team multiple times. Stork has 1 Starleague win, and alot of silver. It actually looks very bad for Stork. I would say, this is actually a fairly reasonable way to look at achievements, it's not me cherry picking their results to make it lopsided, these, I think are fairly reasonable stats to look at to see 'How can I sum up this progamer's entire career'. But we both know that it in fact tells a very biased story. On the other end of the spectrum, if you were to divide it into year by year, with ranking between protoss, Bisu's slump becomes startlingly clear, but if you were to do it to say, NaDa (compared to other terrans), his stats become very ugly, as he played on long past his prime, and becomes incredibly unfair to NaDa. I don't really think level of play comes down to how much you like someone, nor are achievements all that objective. I think both are valid ways to judge greatness and it comes down to preference of method, not necessarily the player you like. Quality of game play improves over time as players understand how the play more optimally, and Bogus from 2011 would win almost every single game on standard maps against BoxeR in 2001. It's not a good metric for judgement. It's an incredibly biased measurement for current day players benefiting from years of meta-game advancements and optimal methods of executing plays. BoxeR's use of cursor movement keys to help the precision of his micro-management was helpful towards his domination in 2001, but was a sub-optimal method of executing plays in the modern context. You can't judge past peformances by how close it is to the modern day definiton of perfect play. You don't have to judge everything by pure results and statistics, but you have to aware of them, to see if they match with your perspective on what happened. You can't just ignore them. For example, it's true that NaDa's career post-2007 is extremely mediocre if you go through by a year by year, and represents about a two year period of mediocre performances, followed by an entire year of being a bottom of the barrel professional player during his twilight years. It's an accurate portrayal of his career, the more you look at the success rate of NaDa's ability to reach the lower rounds of the individual leagues, it drops down significantly towards the end. Judging by his appearances on shows like Old Boy starring Nal_rA, he really was one of the worst professional players around by the end of his career. It still doesn't change the fact that he reached more round of 16, round of 8, more finals than any other player in history, and won six tournaments, a record only matched by Flash. His first round of eight appearance was in 2002, and his last was in 2009. Bisu's first round of eight appearance was in 2006, his final appearance was in 2009. There's a reason why NaDa has accumulated more success over his entire career despite being such an abject failure during his final moments of professional Brood War. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 00:11 Lachrymose wrote: Everybody has different standards for what evidence they consider as valid when they try to sum up a player's overall worth. To some people not going deep in OSLs is a huge problem that can never excused. To some people every OSL campaign is 2 well-timed losses away from an exit and 2 games aren't something you can boil a career down to. Even when it happens time and again. To some people Proleague was "just Proleague" and games aren't trophies (and team trophies also aren't real trophies), even when you break the all time record for season wins at a ridiculous winrate. Nobody is wrong. For me, Flash is the greatest player of all time. Bisu is the only Protoss who ever showed flashes of that same greatness. The GOM S1 MSL final was unbelievably cool. It was an amazing moment in time, it was great, but it doesn't make Bisu great, at least outside that small slice of history. His 2010/2011 PL season was absolutely monstrous. It is not something that any other Protoss, or any other player outside Flash, could ever do. Not even Jaedong, somehow, despite me considering him greater than Bisu. To me, it is the most relevant period of BW history, when play was at its peak, and it is an enormous sample size and Bisu absolutely crushed it. And that's why I think he was the greatest Protoss of all time by a long way. Because nobody else could have. Ever. And you will look at that and think you've already said his 10/11 PL was amazing but is not the totality of his career and it doesn't change your perspective. And that's good. I don't think my perspective is better and I don't even want to convince you. It's just how I feel. If you are familiar with football history, do you also believe that current day football is more relevant than past eras of football due to how the game has developed over the decades, and that it doesn't matter if Di Stefano had records, and accolades that surpass some of the modern day greats, because of how much the game has changed? It's true that any competent professional from the modern era would stomp the earlier era professionals without even breaking a sweat, but to me, that's like thinking random idiots of today are more brilliant than Isaac Newton because we're familiar with his laws of physics, but also the information gained by hundreds of years of human advancement since then. Evolution of any craft is a given, it doesn't mean whoever comes last is the greatest at the craft. As for the amazing season Bisu had, he was given the opportunity to play over 81 games, and had an astonishing 81.5% win rate over that large sample size. That's amazing in isolation, but if you consider that four individual leagues went on during that time, Bisu reached the round of 16 once as his best performance. Perhaps it's unfair for older generation of players who could only play like 9 games in a ProLeague season. What about iloveoov who had a record of 8-1 (88.9%) in the ProLeague in 2003, the year he started to start his insane win streak in the MSL? Should Bisu's ProLeague record be considered more than eight times as worthy as iloveoov's ProLeague performance despite iloveoov never having the chance to prove himself in a 81 game long season? I'm fine with praising Bisu for his fantastic performances, but we have to be real with the circumstances of the situation. How do you know nobody else but Flash could have done it? Flash himself couldn't match Bisu's record despite having the best ProLeague record of his entire career. Why do we suddenly take this one ProLeague season, then proceed to rate Bisu by the players you deem to be capable of repeating this incredible record? Does this mean Bisu is greater than Flash even during his peak? Why does is this one incredible performance by Bisu become the standard by which all other protoss players are judged by, not Flash? Is the 16-4 (80%) record by Stork during his 2007 R1 campaign worth nothing? He still got the regular season MVP, and the play-offs MVP while going to the semi-finals, or above, in both leagues simultaneously. Sure the sample size is way smaller, which is why Bisu is rewarded with much higher career win rate due to his excellent performances in ProLeagues with massive scheduling. But putting that much meaning into this particular performance without thinking about his entire career is flawed, in my opinion. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but it's so strange to me how people who argue for Bisu present their argument. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
I mean, i could instead put forward statistical arguments, at the end of the day, Bisu has a significantly higher win percentage, so despite Stork winning more prestigious matches, Bisu has just flat out won at a better rate, even with the stats of his slump included. Or that he is simply the Protoss with the most number of Starleague gold medals, as well as a ton of proleague medals just from being skt1. Or the highest protoss ELO peak. But those are just flat out not the reasons why I think him the greatest Protoss and i don't think them particularly relevant. At the end of the day, my reasons are his level of play and not cold hard statistics. For Lachrymose, the standard just is that that PL season when he believed play was at it's peak. As for quality of games comparing quality of gameplay from different time periods, yes, you need to compare the players to the level of play of their competition at the time, and it is much more difficult for older games/players. But in this case, this isn't an issue, as they are two contemporaries playing during the same time period where their play can be directly compared, with more or less their entire career in vod form. In the end it comes down to what you value to be greatness, we could easily ask why it's important to progress into starleagues outside the obvious effect of winning games. Why does consistent placing well in starleagues over a long time matter more than just winning at a greater frequency over your career? | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Seconded :D | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 31 2016 23:53 YumYumGranola wrote: When is the Elimination Bracket taking place? Doesn't seem obvious on Liquipedia... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Afreeca_Starleague_Season_2 ...then scroll down to the Elimination Brackets, and click on the little circular 'i' icon within each one. hth. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 02:52 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: At the end of the day, all arguments put foward are going to be subjective, either by how you compare performances, or which statistics to compare. Perfect objectivity just isn't realistic, because there is no objective definition of greatness. I mean, i could instead put forward statistical arguments, at the end of the day, Bisu has a significantly higher win percentage, so despite Stork winning more prestigious matches, Bisu has just flat out won at a better rate, even with the stats of his slump included. Or that he is simply the Protoss with the most number of Starleague gold medals, as well as a ton of proleague medals just from being skt1. Or the highest protoss ELO peak. But those are just flat out not the reasons why I think him the greatest Protoss and i don't think them particularly relevant. At the end of the day, my reasons are his level of play and not cold hard statistics. For Lachrymose, the standard just is that that PL season when he believed play was at it's peak. As for quality of games comparing quality of gameplay from different time periods, yes, you need to compare the players to the level of play of their competition at the time, and it is much more difficult for older games/players. But in this case, this isn't an issue, as they are two contemporaries playing during the same time period where their play can be directly compared, with more or less their entire career in vod form. In the end it comes down to what you value to be greatness, we could easily ask why it's important to progress into starleagues outside the obvious effect of winning games. Why does consistent placing well in starleagues over a long time matter more than just winning at a greater frequency over your career? I think we're starting to repeat ourselves. I'd love to just agree to disagree, but I'll post one more before I go to sleep. We've established the statistics that are in favour of Bisu. I was pointing out the statistics that are in favour of Stork. I originally brought up the topic of Stork versus Bisu, on the claim that Bisu was more ahead of other members of his race than it was the case for Jaedong, or Flash. I chose sAviOr as a point of comparison for Jaedong, and showed how Jaedong didn't only have more championships, but had sAviOr beaten comprehensively in all bracket stage performances, as well as every single ProLeague round that took place after Jaedong's debut round. Stork was my protoss of choice to be compared with Bisu. I think there's a slight argument to be made that Stork had the more extensive career (notice that I established my opinion that I think of Bisu as the superior player), based on his superior longetivity, which has led to an extra 2nd place, an extra semi-finals, two more round of 8 appearances, and eight more round of 16 appearances. He also had a more steady performance in the ProLeague going season by season, although Bisu more than made up for it in terms of overall records by having two year's worth of god-tier performances when the ProLeague scheduling was absolutely insane with 81 games (with a 81.5% win rate) in his best year (2010/2011), compared the 42 games (with a 73.8% win rate) Stork played during his best year of ProLeague. It's with the help of this inflation of these ProLeague games that Bisu achieves his highest ELO ever, rather than getting it during his MSL winnings streak. Bisu versus Stork analysis aside, which was a topic I brought up to silence the myth that any limitation that Bisu had was due to his choice of race, I'll answer your question on why it's important to consider success at which players had at qualifying for the lower bracket stages of the individual leagues, and why it's important to consider other placements during a player's career rather than just judging them by their 1st place finishes. GARIMTO. Although he played in a vastly different era, when the triumvirate of OGN StarLeague/MSL/ProLeague didn't exist, he had a very incomplete career, compared to someone like Stork. Although it's unfair to judge GARIMTO simply by the tournaments that survived to this date, due to how the landscape of his era was not necessarily the same, here is his entire career in OGN StarLeagues/KPGA Tournaments. 1st place finishes: 2 Finals or above: 2 Semi-finals or above: 2 Quarter-finals or above: 2 Round of 16 or above: 6 2 OGN StarLeague championships, four other times where he finished in the top 16. I don't care how much you think championships are worth, I don't think it's right to say GARIMTO achieved more than Stork in their entire careers. As for why longetivity matters, it's the only way to compensate for the fact that the professional Brood War scenes had huge changes in which tournaments had the most prize pool, had the most number of players attending, and the way in which the formatting worked. It changed so many times that winning two MSL titles in a row 2005 was completely different from winning two MSL titles in a row in 2009 for example. If you dropped straight out of the round of 16 in UZOO MSL, you weren't able to return for the following MSL no matter what. So in just in terms of the format difficulty, being in two consecutive MSL was objectively harder than it was in 2009, for example, where you could drop out of the round 32, and still return. Therefore, just comparing records, and placements without considering all the plethora of changes that happened in the scene makes the comparisons a little flawed to start with. The only option is to compare within that specific era. Winning two back to back OGN StarLeague may be not the same achievements in 2001, and 2009, but what doesn't change is the fact that dominating all the tournaments in 2001, makes you the best for a year, and the time frame is what makes the comparison easier. So if there is a player who is the best player in the scene for a year, and another who is the best player for two years, you obviously keep that in mind (without making any brash judgments), even if the other statistics don't follow. For example, by this criteria, Stork is the superior player to Bisu in the ProLeague because he was better for longer periods of time, whereas Bisu is the superior ProLeague player if you don't take eras into account, and just add up their overall records. Stork was there for the ride as well, so it's less of an issue here, but this method is more useful in preventing players who are mediocre otherwise like Really, from padding their statistics way up with performances during the inflated era of the ProLeague. For a holistic review of their careers season by season, Stork was better in 2005, Bisu was better in 2006 due to his win versus sAviOr, in 2007 it depends on your criteria, Stork was better in the ProLeague, while Bisu was better in the individual leagues, for the first half of 2008 Stork was better in the ProLeague, while Bisu was better in the individual leagues, in 2008/2009 Bisu was clearly better, in 2009/2010 Stork was clearly better, in 2010/2011 Bisu was better in the ProLeague, while Stork was better in the individual leagues, 2011/2012 Stork was clearly better. In summary, Stork was the better performing protoss player for three years (2005, 2009/2010, 2011/2012), Bisu was better for two years also (2006, 2008/2009), and the remaining two and a half years depends on how you weigh the importance of the ProLeague. If you think their discrepancies in the ProLeague results matter more, Bisu was better for three years versus the four and a half years for Stork. If you thought better individual placements matter more, Bisu was better for three and a half years, compared to the four years for Stork. Either way, Stork was more relevant as a player for a longer duration of his career. These are some of the merits Stork has. It's not indicative of their greatness, but it's a way of measuring their careers, by which, I believe, their greatness is measured by. It's ultimately how I judge these players, not by how they won, or if they should have won, but by how much they won. The exact method of measuring how much they won is up for discussion, which is why I welcome various statistics, and different approaches to judging their actual result such as win percentages, gathering up all their various placements, and peak ELO. I'm not stating that these stastics are the truth and the light, but rather more data to have a more complete understanding of the nature, and scope of these player's careers and achievements, by which their greatness can be understood. Without a proper attempt at understanding their careers, feelings, and impressions of their memorable moments are worthless, in my eyes. | ||
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YumYumGranola
Canada346 Posts
On January 01 2017 03:35 [[Starlight]] wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Afreeca_Starleague_Season_2 ...then scroll down to the Elimination Brackets, and click on the little circular 'i' icon within each one. hth. Thanks!!!!! | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
Ultimately its a pretty subjective thing whether you consider Storks consistency or Bisu's accomplishments inspite of his instability, to be greater than the other. I think in terms of absolute quality Bisu and Jangbi were clearly the best protoss to have ever played, and were best able to show what a human might be capable of (after all professional bw is a small talent pool). But Stork was clearly consistent across many era's in ways neither were, and if you were to consider those achievements to merit being the greatest protoss ever, how could anyone even argue? Jangbi's winning % was only like 55% in his pro career, sure he won two OSL titles but that is when everyone was training for SC2. Saying that Jangbi is in anyway near the likes of Bisu or Stork is like saying Fantasy is one of the best Terran players ever..... | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 01 2017 07:23 mauwee wrote: Jangbi's winning % was only like 55% in his pro career, sure he won two OSL titles but that is when everyone was training for SC2. Saying that Jangbi is in anyway near the likes of Bisu or Stork is like saying Fantasy is one of the best Terran players ever..... Fantasy did make 5 OSL finals, though. And at least 2 of 'em were before SC2 ever came out. Not saying he's a 'Top 3 of All-Time' Terran, just that he has more to hang his hat on than JangBi's two OSL titles gotten when the SC2 transition was already well under way. | ||
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mauwee
Vatican City State78 Posts
Fantasy did make 5 OSL finals, though. And at least 2 of 'em were before SC2 ever came out. Not saying he's a 'Top 3 Ever' Terran, just that he has more to hang his hat on than JangBi's two OSL titles gotten when the SC2 transition was already well under way. Yeah I agree Fantasy does have more to hang his hat on and his winning % is much higher. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
He's a much more extreme version of Bisu's bipolar performances (in the sense that people remembers his high's more than the lows), and cannot seriously be discussed for even top 4 Protoss players (relative to their eras), imho. Reach and Nal_Ra brought more to their race and consistently represented it at the highest end better, and of course Stork and Bisu have been discussed to death. In terms of absolute skill, the 6 dragons are probably the best Protoss players period though. Fantasy is quite legit though. Very clutch player in individual leagues despite being in the Kong line. 7-5 in Ro16s, 7-0 in Ro8s, 5-2 in Ro4s. I think if Pro BW lasted longer he could claim to be the best Terran behind the Bonjwa's and Flash. He already is in terms of finals appearances, which is important. But he had a relatively shorter career than TBLS (minus Flash who had the same length, and if one hell of a metric). Besides Flash, who would rank above Fantasy for Terran from the 2008-2012 era as a whole? Sea was a SPL monster, but nothing individual. Light was the only other Terran to do well in both SPL and Starleagues, but his SL performance has nothing on Fantasy and his TvP was poor. It's Fantasy, period. To be second best Terran in the highest skill era ever is significant. ForGG only had 1 (amazing, but only 1) run. Though the older players are before my time, so I don't know if players like Xellos and Goodfriend would be better in the grand scheme of things. Fantasy could contend for one of the best Terrans ever in terms of accomplishments and contributions (though I know some say his style was just iloveoov's ideas), and possibly second most in terms of peak skill. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On January 01 2017 07:23 mauwee wrote: Where the hell is the logic there? You have to win x amount of titles in order to have x quality of game play? Clearly not. What I was saying is that Jangbi and Bisu, when they played at their very best, elevated the race beyond what anyone else could do, not that they always played at that level. Jangbi's winning % was only like 55% in his pro career, sure he won two OSL titles but that is when everyone was training for SC2. Saying that Jangbi is in anyway near the likes of Bisu or Stork is like saying Fantasy is one of the best Terran players ever..... | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
He was truly amazing at times though, but what period do you think he may have been the second best? 08-09 with 3 finals and a positive SPL record (and great memories like NaDa storm drops)? | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Bisu and Jangbi were clearly the best protoss to have ever played, and were best able to show what a human might be capable of It's clear to anyone who isnt looking for a fight that I was speaking of Jangbi and Bisu's ability, and not how we could summarize their total accomplishments as a player -- hell, the rest of the post was, and the whole meat of the reason I posted at all, speaking to the fact that "best" is a somewhat subjective term, because of what aspects of a career people think 'best'. The entire statement about Jangbi and Bisu only makes sense in context as a description of only their gameplay capacity [it not being a subjective thing]. It's just incoherent/drastically uncharitable to read it any other way. No doubt there were other, more stable protosses who could be described as 'better' within a certain conceptual prism, but also clearly, I was not speaking through that prism but merely temporary contingent abilities. Jangbi and Bisu at their very best, however ephemeral that was, were the best protoss to have ever played. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 01 2017 04:32 Letmelose wrote: I think we're starting to repeat ourselves. I'd love to just agree to disagree, but I'll post one more before I go to sleep. We've established the statistics that are in favour of Bisu. I was pointing out the statistics that are in favour of Stork. I originally brought up the topic of Stork versus Bisu, on the claim that Bisu was more ahead of other members of his race than it was the case for Jaedong, or Flash. I chose sAviOr as a point of comparison for Jaedong, and showed how Jaedong didn't only have more championships, but had sAviOr beaten comprehensively in all bracket stage performances, as well as every single ProLeague round that took place after Jaedong's debut round. Stork was my protoss of choice to be compared with Bisu. I think there's a slight argument to be made that Stork had the more extensive career (notice that I established my opinion that I think of Bisu as the superior player), based on his superior longetivity, which has led to an extra 2nd place, an extra semi-finals, two more round of 8 appearances, and eight more round of 16 appearances. He also had a more steady performance in the ProLeague going season by season, although Bisu more than made up for it in terms of overall records by having two year's worth of god-tier performances when the ProLeague scheduling was absolutely insane with 81 games (with a 81.5% win rate) in his best year (2010/2011), compared the 42 games (with a 73.8% win rate) Stork played during his best year of ProLeague. It's with the help of this inflation of these ProLeague games that Bisu achieves his highest ELO ever, rather than getting it during his MSL winnings streak. Bisu versus Stork analysis aside, which was a topic I brought up to silence the myth that any limitation that Bisu had was due to his choice of race, I'll answer your question on why it's important to consider success at which players had at qualifying for the lower bracket stages of the individual leagues, and why it's important to consider other placements during a player's career rather than just judging them by their 1st place finishes. GARIMTO. Although he played in a vastly different era, when the triumvirate of OGN StarLeague/MSL/ProLeague didn't exist, he had a very incomplete career, compared to someone like Stork. Although it's unfair to judge GARIMTO simply by the tournaments that survived to this date, due to how the landscape of his era was not necessarily the same, here is his entire career in OGN StarLeagues/KPGA Tournaments. 1st place finishes: 2 Finals or above: 2 Semi-finals or above: 2 Quarter-finals or above: 2 Round of 16 or above: 6 2 OGN StarLeague championships, four other times where he finished in the top 16. I don't care how much you think championships are worth, I don't think it's right to say GARIMTO achieved more than Stork in their entire careers. As for why longetivity matters, it's the only way to compensate for the fact that the professional Brood War scenes had huge changes in which tournaments had the most prize pool, had the most number of players attending, and the way in which the formatting worked. It changed so many times that winning two MSL titles in a row 2005 was completely different from winning two MSL titles in a row in 2009 for example. If you dropped straight out of the round of 16 in UZOO MSL, you weren't able to return for the following MSL no matter what. So in just in terms of the format difficulty, being in two consecutive MSL was objectively harder than it was in 2009, for example, where you could drop out of the round 32, and still return. Therefore, just comparing records, and placements without considering all the plethora of changes that happened in the scene makes the comparisons a little flawed to start with. The only option is to compare within that specific era. Winning two back to back OGN StarLeague may be not the same achievements in 2001, and 2009, but what doesn't change is the fact that dominating all the tournaments in 2001, makes you the best for a year, and the time frame is what makes the comparison easier. So if there is a player who is the best player in the scene for a year, and another who is the best player for two years, you obviously keep that in mind (without making any brash judgments), even if the other statistics don't follow. For example, by this criteria, Stork is the superior player to Bisu in the ProLeague because he was better for longer periods of time, whereas Bisu is the superior ProLeague player if you don't take eras into account, and just add up their overall records. Stork was there for the ride as well, so it's less of an issue here, but this method is more useful in preventing players who are mediocre otherwise like Really, from padding their statistics way up with performances during the inflated era of the ProLeague. For a holistic review of their careers season by season, Stork was better in 2005, Bisu was better in 2006 due to his win versus sAviOr, in 2007 it depends on your criteria, Stork was better in the ProLeague, while Bisu was better in the individual leagues, for the first half of 2008 Stork was better in the ProLeague, while Bisu was better in the individual leagues, in 2008/2009 Bisu was clearly better, in 2009/2010 Stork was clearly better, in 2010/2011 Bisu was better in the ProLeague, while Stork was better in the individual leagues, 2011/2012 Stork was clearly better. In summary, Stork was the better performing protoss player for three years (2005, 2009/2010, 2011/2012), Bisu was better for two years also (2006, 2008/2009), and the remaining two and a half years depends on how you weigh the importance of the ProLeague. If you think their discrepancies in the ProLeague results matter more, Bisu was better for three years versus the four and a half years for Stork. If you thought better individual placements matter more, Bisu was better for three and a half years, compared to the four years for Stork. Either way, Stork was more relevant as a player for a longer duration of his career. These are some of the merits Stork has. It's not indicative of their greatness, but it's a way of measuring their careers, by which, I believe, their greatness is measured by. It's ultimately how I judge these players, not by how they won, or if they should have won, but by how much they won. The exact method of measuring how much they won is up for discussion, which is why I welcome various statistics, and different approaches to judging their actual result such as win percentages, gathering up all their various placements, and peak ELO. I'm not stating that these stastics are the truth and the light, but rather more data to have a more complete understanding of the nature, and scope of these player's careers and achievements, by which their greatness can be understood. Without a proper attempt at understanding their careers, feelings, and impressions of their memorable moments are worthless, in my eyes. I'd still like to sum it up to the agree to disagree conclusion. While I am totally OK with your approach of measuring how well they placed over time, and think it'a s totally valid approach. I would point out it is not so much a measure of how much they won, as how well they placed. The mathematically pure way of measuring how much they won is quite simple. Stork beats Bisu with more wins 478-436. Bisu beats Storks with fewer losses 230 - 306. Eg Stork has won more games, Bisu wins a greater proportion of his games. *barring tlpd not being totally accurate/thorough I don't think those are totally fair statistics to Stork, because I feel Bisu on the whole had easier games. But if you just want a measure of how much they won. It's hard to argue with a total and a mean. It doesn't care about how you played in your wins or losses, it doesn't care how your wins or losses are distributed throughout your career. It puts streaky and consistent players on even ground of 'get wins, I don't care how or when'. It places no emphasis on anything but winning. You place greater importance on tournament and proleague placements, and I place greater emphasis on level of play. I think your method is valid but I don't think it's fair to call your approach how much they won. I think it's more of a measure of 'how long they were relevant' vs 'how they played'. While 'how much they won' is actually fairly statistically uninteresting, not because it's not important, but because the most objective possible measure can be found by literally clicking on tlpd. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
no prob. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 09:59 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I'd still like to sum it up to the agree to disagree conclusion. While I am totally OK with your approach of measuring how well they placed over time, and think it'a s totally valid approach. I would point out it is not so much a measure of how much they won, as how well they placed. The mathematically pure way of measuring how much they won is quite simple. Stork beats Bisu with more wins 478-436. Bisu beats Storks with fewer losses 230 - 306. Eg Stork has won more games, Bisu wins a greater proportion of his games. *barring tlpd not being totally accurate/thorough I don't think those are totally fair statistics to Stork, because I feel Bisu on the whole had easier games. But if you just want a measure of how much they won. It's hard to argue with a total and a mean. It doesn't care about how you played in your wins or losses, it doesn't care how your wins or losses are distributed throughout your career. It puts streaky and consistent players on even ground of 'get wins, I don't care how or when'. It places no emphasis on anything but winning. You place greater importance on tournament and proleague placements, and I place greater emphasis on level of play. I think your method is valid but I don't think it's fair to call your approach how much they won. I think it's more of a measure of 'how long they were relevant' vs 'how they played'. While 'how much they won' is actually fairly statistically uninteresting, not because it's not important, but because the most objective possible measure can be found by literally clicking on tlpd. It's how much they won respective to their era. For example, iloveoov won 9 matches on his way to his 3rd MSL title from the round of 16. He played a single BO5 in the entire tournament due to the format. Bisu played three BO5 series starting from the round of eight (even if we exclude the games he had in the round of 32~16) on his way to the victory in Clubday Online MSL, one of which was against FBH, who at the time had a career TvP record of 45.5%. Sure Bisu won more. What could iloveoov do to win more apart from praying to god he was still a top level player when winning the MSL gave you more BO5 wins, and more opportunities to pad your overall statistics? Iloveoov played in the era of ProLeague when it was composed of 12 rounds of two 1v1 matches, and one 2v2 match without an ACE match. Even if he played in every possible round, the format restricted him to a cap of 12 wins. He ended up as the best player with the record of 8-1 (88.9%). When Bisu was playing in his most successful ProLeague season, he played in 54 rounds, with the possible cap of 144 wins during the regular season (assuming there was ACE match every time, and Bisu all-killed in every single Winners League round). Sure Bisu won more, and his amazing record of 63 wins during the regular season is something that is more impressive than any other ProLeague achievement, but just saying a quick glance at the bunched up numbers is enough isn't paying sufficient respect to the massive changes in format and number of games that happened. Sometimes, judging players by how long they played well for is the only way to account for the massive changes that happened throughout the history of the scene. I'm okay with Bisu getting higher ELO, and higher overall career win rates due to his superlative ProLeague performances in these particular occasions, but I think that shouldn't be the end of the discussion. What if iloveoov played three BO5 everytime he made it into the finals, instead of playing just one or two? What if he got to pad his statistics with clean 3-0 victories over pushovers like Firebathero (against protoss only, of course)? What if he sustained his 88.9% win rate in a season that allowed him to play 144 games, if all the stars aligned? What if Stork didn't play for 44 rounds during his best period during the 2007 ProLeague Season (when he had 75.6% win rate) , but had 54 rounds like Bisu, with 18 rounds of 4-0 all kill opportunities, some of which were against free fodder like Air Force ACE (you don't think Bisu took advantage of that)? The fact of the matter is, Bisu was more impressive in seasons that had more massive scheduling. Stork couldn't take advantage of the 54 rounds of free wins, and only ended the season with 43 wins compared to the 63 wins taken by Bisu. However, this massive difference, while noteworthy, shouldn't overshadow the multitude of other ProLeague seasons such as 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 when Stork had regular season record of 15-4 (78.9%) while Bisu had a regular season record of 5-6 (45.5%), then failed against Anytime in the Play-Offs, the very same opponent Stork defeated to gain his Play-Offs MVP title. Don't you think the disparity here is greater? At least Stork had over half the number of wins Bisu had in Bisu's best season, while Bisu had third of the Stork's number of wins with a sub-50% win rate, and finished that off with a flop performance in the play-offs. However, all these years of Stork stomping Bisu in terms of ProLeague performance and statistics had its tables turned upside down with unreal levels of performance from Bisu in those 70~80 game seasons, and I'm fine with Bisu claiming greater win percentages due to these high peaks. However, I personally believe that breaking down performances era by era is necessary to account for the various changes that happened to the ProLeague season when Stork and Bisu were around. Stork was better for longer. Bisu was much more memorable for exactly two years for those 70~ 80 game seasons. There were three massive seasons of ProLeague, and Stork sustained a steady level of performance that was neither bad, nor memorable. Bisu was amazing for the first one, flopped in the second, then shocked everyone by breaking the ProLeague regular season record set by Flash with 63 wins. This is just breaking down the 3 best years of Bisu's absolute best ProLeague performances. Stork, even when his levels of performance seemed to the most lackluster compared to Bisu at the height of his ProLeague prowess, was still putting respectable levels of performances. Plus he was better in the individual leagues throughout this period also. This is why I place such value on placements, relative performances, and achievements based on the circumstances of the era. The same exact achievements bring forth vastly different statistics depending on the era. Bisu is rightly rewarded for his extreme highs in terms of peak ELO, number of championships, and overall career win rate, and Stork is rightly rewarded in terms of relative superiority going season by season, having greater resume except for the number of championships, and having more instances of being relevant in all three main platforms of competition (OGN StarLeague/MSL/ProLeague). This suggests that Stork had elements of his career that was superior to Bisu, while Bisu also had elements of his career that was superior. I'm not trying to suggest one or the other. Like I said, I don't have a strong feeling about it either way, but when provoked, I do tend to focus harder on negatives for the player the fanbase of which I consider obnoxious. Go through the same method of comparing data for players like Jaedong and sAviOr, for example, and any myths of Bisu being light-years ahead of his fellow protoss in terms of objective career results should be dispelled. That's all I'm saying. Raw data from TLPD (incomplete data for older generations of players, but pretty much all-encompassing for modern day players like Stork) in terms of career records only tell part of of the story, especially if you are unaware of the format changes, and scheduling changes that happened in history. It's still a very important data, and an objective measure of how many games they won. I tried to add other information like how many they won relative to the era, and how much they were successful in going past certain bracket stages of individual leagues keeping in mind that the format did not remain a constant (a various cluster-fuck of BO1 double elimination, BO1 round robin, BO3, and BO5). I'm not saying you need to judge players purely by who was better for longer, but these are metrics you need to be aware of considering the changes that happened throughout history. To be quite honest, I didn't think I would discussing Bisu versus Stork for this long. It was a side topic brought up by me to thwart the assertions about Bisu I mentioned above. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 08:26 Crisium wrote: JangBi was almost never a presence in individual leagues outside of his 4 finals (5 if GOMTV) appearances. And the short 2007 Proleague was the only time he was the top Protoss in SPL. He became a paewang, and then won the last 2 OSL's in perhaps the most storied fashion ever. He's a much more extreme version of Bisu's bipolar performances (in the sense that people remembers his high's more than the lows), and cannot seriously be discussed for even top 4 Protoss players (relative to their eras), imho. Reach and Nal_Ra brought more to their race and consistently represented it at the highest end better, and of course Stork and Bisu have been discussed to death. In terms of absolute skill, the 6 dragons are probably the best Protoss players period though. Fantasy is quite legit though. Very clutch player in individual leagues despite being in the Kong line. 7-5 in Ro16s, 7-0 in Ro8s, 5-2 in Ro4s. I think if Pro BW lasted longer he could claim to be the best Terran behind the Bonjwa's and Flash. He already is in terms of finals appearances, which is important. But he had a relatively shorter career than TBLS (minus Flash who had the same length, and if one hell of a metric). Besides Flash, who would rank above Fantasy for Terran from the 2008-2012 era as a whole? Sea was a SPL monster, but nothing individual. Light was the only other Terran to do well in both SPL and Starleagues, but his SL performance has nothing on Fantasy and his TvP was poor. It's Fantasy, period. To be second best Terran in the highest skill era ever is significant. ForGG only had 1 (amazing, but only 1) run. Though the older players are before my time, so I don't know if players like Xellos and Goodfriend would be better in the grand scheme of things. Fantasy could contend for one of the best Terrans ever in terms of accomplishments and contributions (though I know some say his style was just iloveoov's ideas), and possibly second most in terms of peak skill. It was late 2006, and I was an avid user of Fightforum, a Korean discussion board that has been shut down for years now, as well as starting to post on this site after discovering a whole new world of English speaking communities (some of the guys were literally insane staying up at night just to read about the games that were happening). The turn-over rate of the professionals at the time was at its peak, with the expansion of the ProLeague, viewerships doing fantastic, more businesses taking an interest, and we had BoxeR, legitimize e-Sports in the eyes of official Korean governing bodies with the creation of Air Force ACE and talks of encorporating e-Sports into the sporting realm like Asian Games. It wasn't not like the final few years of Starcraft with the amateur player-base stagnating, and the absolute best holding on to their reign for longer partly due to this factor. The discussion for the discovery of the next hot thing was all the rage back then (and due to how dynamic the scene was back then, you would sometimes get some right, and would feel good about yourself). I remember some people harping on about Bisu's ilovejs account, which had insane records in PGTour, a place where professional players could practice in cognito. On Fighterforum, JangBi was all the rage, with people saying he would be the next bonjwa after sAviOr. I think he was an amateur who streamed from time to time, his micro-management, his large scale battling potential, and his blazing fast reaction speed were all so inhuman for people who were more used to Nal_rA's slow paced games. It was kind of like watching NaDa play protoss. By early 2007, I thought Jaedong would surpass sAviOr soon, he was getting unreal levels of praise for how monstrous he was during practice. JangBi was supposed to be already the best protoss player during practice after he made it into Samsung Khan in late 2006, but he was so god awful in televised games, I just assumed he was just another case of a player who couldn't get over stage-fright. I also thought that Light would be the next great terran due to his super crisp mechanics, good late-game focus, and insanely high effective APM. I remember watching some show on MBC Game where they brought on MBC Game HERO players to play fun unofficial games, and there was this spectacular game Light played where he was losing this game to Bisu on Arcadia, but overcame everything through pure multi-tasking and late-game management. I can't find the VOD for it, but I remember thinking this was the makings of the next best terran. During mid-2007 this three day Starcraft LAN takes place, named Seoul e-Sports Festival. It was just a RO256 BO3 from start to finish, and no time for preparation. It seemed like the perfect tournament to prove who was the best in terms of on-the-day, pure match-up of skill without specific preparation. I kind of felt vindicated as Jaedong won the finals versus JangBi, with Light going all the way to the semi-finals. JangBi always had the potential to be better in my opinion. He didn't have the work ethic of Bisu. He was extremely emotional, and was worthless as a player if you just took away his gaming talents. However, it's my personal belief that JangBi was the most talented protoss player ever in terms of sheer gaming ability, although Bisu comes close, and had better work ethic on top of that. As a professional player? JangBi was a horrendous failure who failed to live up to his hype, and only performed when things were clicking for him, in a manner that was almost unacceptable. Korean communities berated him to no ends (love often turns into hate). Naming him "Paewang" and other derogatory titles. JangBi would waste his energy fighting with the Korean communities, and didn't play the game at all for months due to the inner turmoil he had with the team management. But in terms of sheer talent, JangBi had so much promise. I would have lengthy discussions with friends whether Bisu or JangBi had better pure gaming ability. Bisu would often come out on top. I'm personally of the opinion that JangBi had better talent initially, with Bisu not that far behind, but Bisu caught up, and probably surpassed him with his professional mindset, and discipline, and after improving even further after he transfered to SK Telecom T1, while JangBi was wasting his talents being really unhappy with his situation at Samsung Khan. There's a reason why JangBi's return to glory after years of being washed up, having barely touched the game for months on end, and being a failed prodigy was met with so much praise within the Korean community. There was a reason why people were already on the hype train after JangBi made it past the qualifiers for the first time in what seemed like forever. It was a desperate longing that was not only felt by JangBi, but thousands of Korean fans who were waiting for JangBi to become the next protoss bonjwa since 2006. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3749/12084726004_dcd3425fa5_o.jpg) Sure JangBi's career was a total waste of his gaming abilities. No one can deny that. However, in terms of sheer talent, JangBi is one of the great "what-ifs" in history. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
What made me his fan was about his emotional character. The spirit he emanates during gameplay is incredible, he is bringing real life to these virtual units. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 01 2017 23:06 _Animus_ wrote: Im tired of that "everyone was practicing sc2 while jangbi was wining 2 osls". I have to say NO, OSL is the most prestigeous tournament in korea, you think players in it will just throw that oportunity to practice sc2? Have u considered that Fantasy was with perfect record untill finals, no loss, then he got destroyed. Have you forgot how other progamers were praising jangbi for his skill during practice? Stork claiming Jangbi is the best protoss on KHAN in practice. He was inconsistent on stage, but what i saw is that he evolved. He became calm and confident, just see him on the last finals vs fantasy - no stress. He was on the rise and maybe about to become next bonjwa. What made me his fan was about his emotional character. The spirit he emanates during gameplay is incredible, he is bringing real life to these virtual units. I've been keeping an eye out for JangBi before his professional career began, but it's not enough to be just fantastic at the game to be one of the greatest, you need discipline to make use of your talents (unless you are NaDa, but even he saw the fruits of his over-reliance of talent towards the end), on top of that you need to be in control of your emotions to function on the biggest stage regardless of the situation. All JangBi had was his other wordly gaming abilities. When doctors performed fMRI on professional gamers such as XellOs, or BoxeR had enhanced limbic system compared to the average person, and Flash had his prefrontal cortex developed on top of that, suggesting an even greater capacity to control his emotions. JangBi, when he was firing all cylinders, was a force of nature, a dream come true. However he was never a player who could keep his composure when things were going wrong, on top of that, was plagued with motivational issues throughout his entire career. His highs are just a glimpse of the immense talent he had, but all the assessments on JangBi's career are pretty much spot on in my opinion. Although, as a Brood War gamer, he was, in my humble opinion, the most talented protoss player to ever grace the scene. | ||
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Miragee
8466 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 11:06 Miragee wrote: Jangbi wasn't even that impressive in my eyes. All the games people were fawning over his great skill still felt lacking in some way. It mostly felt like he would have lost if his oponent played to his full ability. Or if he played players like Flash, Bisu or Jaedong in their prime he would have been smashed. He always pulled through on a razor-thin margin with great storms etc. but never showed any kind of dominance over his oponents. I don't think anybody here is suggesting JangBi's reputation as a beast during practice (some of the rumours are quite impressive), and the few moments he had where he somewhat resembled the player that he was hyped to be, was a regular occurence throughout his disappointing career. JangBi did have quality games versus the likes of Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong (some of which I'll link below), but I think nobody is claiming that he had great success against these players, or even against players of lower calibre with any consistency. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + JangBi's professional career is a series of embarassing lows, with glimpses of what JangBi was famous for (lightning quick reaction times, great multi-tasking, clean, crisp mastery of various units and army compositions, and superb execution of large scale battles) against some of the best players of his era. Stork may have had the mastery of the protoss units, but lacked the fast paced multi-tasking of JangBi. Bisu may have had the multi-tasking of a god, but lacked the large scale battling ability, and finer mastery of certain protoss units. JangBi, especially before he had motivational issues, was probably the only protoss who had perfected the art of executing protoss plays. He would make bad decisions, choke on stage, and was an emotional wreck half the time, but the times he gathered himself sufficiently to pull off the plays he was capable of pulling off, it was a sight to behold. It was all the more infuriating if you had heard about some of the performances and results he was pulling off during practice. JangBi was never destined for greatness with all the issues he had a professional player. However, I think you may be underestimating how talented he was at the game, although little shone through in a career that was plagued by what I believe may be stage fright, emotional instability, motivational issues, and almost zero mental fortitude. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
Comparing today's players to legends like GARIMTO, SsamJang, TheBoy, H.O.T-Forever, Grrrr... and company is not fair. Sure they may not have the kind of careers as TBLS but their impact on the way the game is played and how they paved the way to a legitimate e-sports circuit should more than count as great accomplishments. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 02 2017 11:06 Miragee wrote: Jangbi wasn't even that impressive in my eyes. All the games people were fawning over his great skill still felt lacking in some way. It mostly felt like he would have lost if his oponent played to his full ability. Or if he played players like Flash, Bisu or Jaedong in their prime he would have been smashed. He always pulled through on a razor-thin margin with great storms etc. but never showed any kind of dominance over his oponents. I get the feeling that Jangbi suffers in that department which makes him look less good than he actually was. Is that just being protoss, he was particularly vulnerable to zerg. Not just 'the top zergs always feel like they could beat him' but it always seemed like any zerg good at zvp was always a big threat, no matter the form Jangbi himself was in. I think of all the six dragons, as well as pretty much every protoss starleague winnner (Basically every noteworthy protoss ever), with the exception of Bisu at times, always had that dark cloud hanging over them. I think for Nal_ra, Reach, Anytime and every dragon other than Bisu. If you put the question out there, what was their weakest matchup, their achilles heel if you will, the vast majority of the community who knew something of them, without needing to look up stats, or really think about it would instantly tell you it's PvZ. Personally, I feel, at his peaks, Jangbi's PvT, was just as good, and in fact comparable in nature to Bisu's PvZ. I would go as far to say as Jangbi's PvT, when he was playing well, was the best PvT I've ever seen. His understanding of the matchup was at least as good as any other protoss, and his execution was immaculate. But the problem is. The bar for PvT is much higher. The background skill level for top protosses against terran was just incredibly high. I feel like Bisu had a certain weakness of understanding in the matchup, especially in the lategame, yet he still performed incredibly against terran. All the other dragons bar Bisu had PvT as their best matchup. In that sort of atmosphere, I think being the best at PvT just doesn't look as impressive, because everyone else is also performing so well. If it were possible to completely remove the Bisu factor from your mind, and let every other protoss set the standard for PvZ. Suddenly, Jangbi's PvZ is just par for the course. While he was still unstable, but his level of play in PvT suddenly becomes more differentiating. Between that and Jangbi's general instability, I think it's easy to lose track, of just how good his PvT was when he was in form. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 12:49 c3rberUs wrote: Had professional BW not transitioned, perhaps we would have witnessed JangBi realize his potential after all. One can dream. Comparing today's players to legends like GARIMTO, SsamJang, TheBoy, H.O.T-Forever, Grrrr... and company is not fair. Sure they may not have the kind of careers as TBLS but their impact on the way the game is played and how they paved the way to a legitimate e-sports circuit should more than count as great accomplishments. Judging the first generation of players, except for BoxeR, who was still making it to the finals in 2005, is extremely challenging for the following reasons. 1) None except BoxeR have been relevant at the very top for more than a couple of years, at best. For those who were not there to watch their careers unfold, it's so tempting to assume that they were just pioneers who were not able to evolve with the times except for BoxeR. Most of the greats in history have around four to five years as one of the top players in the scene, if not more. 2) So much of their records aren't available in online databases, and there's not even much record left by the word of mouth since so many sites have been closed. Finding VODs, whether they were televised at the time or not, are even harder, since most of the broadcasting stations have shut down for years now. 3) The few VODs/full records available for any analysis provides only a minimal body work, and in-depth articles about the context of their careers are incredibly difficult to locate. 4) Sure players such as St.Eagle won massive tournaments that had more prize money than OGN StarLeague at the time, and was vital in the evolution of the current meta-game, but the fact of the matter is that there is almost zero VOD proof of him being an innovator of a certain meta-game, just word of mouth, and the tournaments he won have its records lost forever. We don't even know who St.Eagle faced in the round of 16, for example on his way to his APGL triumph. Almost everything is dependent on word of mouth, and even that's hard to find, and once we actually look into the statistics and VODs that are available for analysis today, there is almost nothing of substance. 5) If even one other player apart from BoxeR was achieving anything of note post-2003, they could be compared to players whose careers that had sustained level of excellence for multiple years like the great players of the televised era like NaDa, Reach, and YellOw, and we could sort of fill in the blanks in the periods where there isn't much remaining records, but for the vast majority of them, it simply isn't possible. 6) Grrrr...'s status as the best player in the world relies a lot from his achievements earned outside of the context of professional Brood War in Korea, and his initial sucess at conquering the Korean domain in 2000 (some of the records of which are even listed on TLPD), and his overall career achievements aren't that spectacular just within the context of professional gaming in Korea. How do you rate such as a player? As a Brood War player, sure he was a legendary figure dating way back to 1998, and was probably the most accomplished, and most famous player between 1998~2000 (I know next to nothing about this period), but that period has minimal overlap with the Korean e-Sports scene, and even less overlap with Korean e-Sports scene that has its records available for discussion. If we break it down by eras, Grrr... definitely deserves his place in history, probably less so as a professional gamer in Korea. 1998: Zileas? 1999~2000: Grrrr... 2001: BoxeR 2002: NaDa 2003: NaDa/iloveoov 2004~2005: iloveoov/July 2006: sAviOr 2007: Bisu/Stork 2008~2009: Jaedong 2010~2011: Flash 2012: JangBi/FanTaSy After reading about the old tournaments, perhaps Grrrr...'s domination over other players wasn't set in stone. I just figured since he won Blizzard 1999 World Championship, and was doing great in the ladder in 1998, he was considered the best player, as it is written in Korean articles (a lot of Korean posts about Starcraft in 1998 mention that Grrrr... beat Zileas with mass hydralisks in some hyped showmatch), but a lot of English sites seem to think highly of Zileas due to his highly intelligent approach to the game. http://kaviksc.blogspot.kr/2011/12/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-ko-x.html https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4crxl0/starcraft_competitive_scene_19982001_a_trip_down/ | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 14:44 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I get the feeling that Jangbi suffers in that department which makes him look less good than he actually was. Is that just being protoss, he was particularly vulnerable to zerg. Not just 'the top zergs always feel like they could beat him' but it always seemed like any zerg good at zvp was always a big threat, no matter the form Jangbi himself was in. I think of all the six dragons, as well as pretty much every protoss starleague winnner (Basically every noteworthy protoss ever), with the exception of Bisu at times, always had that dark cloud hanging over them. I think for Nal_ra, Reach, Anytime and every dragon other than Bisu. If you put the question out there, what was their weakest matchup, their achilles heel if you will, the vast majority of the community who knew something of them, without needing to look up stats, or really think about it would instantly tell you it's PvZ. Personally, I feel, at his peaks, Jangbi's PvT, was just as good, and in fact comparable in nature to Bisu's PvZ. I would go as far to say as Jangbi's PvT, when he was playing well, was the best PvT I've ever seen. His understanding of the matchup was at least as good as any other protoss, and his execution was immaculate. But the problem is. The bar for PvT is much higher. The background skill level for top protosses against terran was just incredibly high. I feel like Bisu had a certain weakness of understanding in the matchup, especially in the lategame, yet he still performed incredibly against terran. All the other dragons bar Bisu had PvT as their best matchup. In that sort of atmosphere, I think being the best at PvT just doesn't look as impressive, because everyone else is also performing so well. If it were possible to completely remove the Bisu factor from your mind, and let every other protoss set the standard for PvZ. Suddenly, Jangbi's PvZ is just par for the course. While he was still unstable, but his level of play in PvT suddenly becomes more differentiating. Between that and Jangbi's general instability, I think it's easy to lose track, of just how good his PvT was when he was in form. While JangBi's flawless execution of the diverse styles he mastered in the PvT match-up were some of the cleanest in history, BeSt probably had comparable, or superior understanding of the match-up if we compare players from the modern era. The "T1 build" that helped protoss players immensely during the early game was invented by BeSt. BeSt was at times immaculate at the match-up, even if his mastery over the units wasn't quite the cleanest, his optimization of builds, and how to maximize his production from the gateways could be considered as some of the best in my opinion. Bisu's PvZ could be considered as one of the absolute best in history (if we only consider performance of players against a single race, his PvZ is probably pretty close to the TvZ ability of Flash, or ZvZ ability of Jaedong, some of the most legendary single match-up performances in history) not only in terms of statistics, but quality of play in all aspects. Bisu's understanding of the match-up, after revolutionizing match-up after taking the evolution further from the innovations of other protosses such as Daezang, was unparalleled. His mastery of units that were pivotal in the match-up such as his early zealot micro-management, and corsair utilization was nothing short of amazing. JangBi wasn't the player who was ahead of the times, or had the most sound decision making (I'm not sure whether it was better in practice environments but suffered on stage due to nerves, or whether his practice results were so immaculate due to how overwhelmingly powerful his execution of plays were), but his execution of various styles of plays, whether it was in PvP, PvT, or PvZ, was second to none when JangBi was firing all cylinders. His ability to make miraculous plays (non-stop harassments, large scale PvT army managements, and his famous storm usage) was apparently a thing that happened all the time during practice, against whatever level of player he was playing against the time. However, we rarely got to see those moments, although JangBi did most frequrently against terran players in televised games (JangBi's PvZ was supposed to be monstrous during practice, even against Jaedong, who was supposed to be invincible against protoss during practice). I wouldn't compare JangBi's PvT to Bisu's PvZ, Bisu's PvZ was literally god-tier, not just compared to other protoss players, but almost any player who played versus the zerg race. To put it simply, if I were to create the perfect PvZ player by combining the strengths of various players. I think I'll just leave Bisu be. If I were to create the pefect PvT player, I'll add the early mind games of Snow (to prevent counter-optimization BeSt struggled against at times), standard play build optimization of BeSt, to the abilities shown by JangBi in the match-up when he was hitting his strides. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 02 2017 15:32 Letmelose wrote: While JangBi's flawless execution of the diverse styles he mastered in the PvT match-up were some of the cleanest in history, BeSt probably had comparable, or superior understanding of the match-up if we compare players from the modern era. The "T1 build" that helped protoss players immensely during the early game was invented by BeSt. BeSt was at times immaculate at the match-up, even if his mastery over the units wasn't quite the cleanest, his optimization of builds, and how to maximize his production from the gateways could be considered as some of the best in my opinion. Bisu's PvZ could be considered as one of the absolute best in history (if we only consider performance of players against a single race, his PvZ is probably pretty close to the TvZ ability of Flash, or ZvZ ability of Jaedong, some of the most legendary single match-up performances in history) not only in terms of statistics, but quality of play in all aspects. Bisu's understanding of the match-up, after revolutionizing match-up after taking the evolution further from the innovations of other protosses such as Daezang, was unparalleled. His mastery of units that were pivotal in the match-up such as his early zealot micro-management, and corsair utilization was nothing short of amazing. JangBi wasn't the player who was ahead of the times, or had the most sound decision making (I'm not sure whether it was better in practice environments but suffered on stage due to nerves, or whether his practice results were so immaculate due to how overwhelmingly powerful his execution of plays were), but his execution of various styles of plays, whether it was in PvP, PvT, or PvZ, was second to none when JangBi was firing all cylinders. His ability to make miraculous plays (non-stop harassments, large scale PvT army managements, and his famous storm usage) was apparently a thing that happened all the time during practice, against whatever level of player he was playing against the time. However, we rarely got to see those moments, although JangBi did most frequrently against terran players in televised games (JangBi's PvZ was supposed to be monstrous during practice, even against Jaedong, who was supposed to be invincible against protoss during practice). I wouldn't compare JangBi's PvT to Bisu's PvZ, Bisu's PvZ was literally god-tier, not just compared to other protoss players, but almost any player who played versus the zerg race. To put it simply, if I were to create the perfect PvZ player by combining the strengths of various players. I think I'll just leave Bisu be. If I were to create the pefect PvT player, I'll add the early mind games of Snow (to prevent counter-optimization BeSt struggled against at times), standard play build optimization of BeSt, to the abilities shown by JangBi in the match-up when he was hitting his strides. Well my comparison to Bisu's PvZ in this case was mostly regarding understanding of the matchup and execution, not so much in innovation, or superiority over other protoss the matchup. But understanding of a matchup, is not merely innovation. It takes understanding merely to execute into the lategame. And I feel Jangbi's understanding of PvT when he was playing well, was in fact top notch, and I genuinely stand by the statement that it is comparable to Bisu's PvZ understanding. The difference was PvT is both better understood by other protoss, and less volatile in general, than the PvZ matchup. There were other protoss around to innovate the matchup in the little ways required, there was no competition for Bisu in PvZ. As an example I will use Bisu, for non-innovation related understanding, particularly, I felt he actually had a deficit in that department, into the PvT late game. I felt that it showed very clearly when he was panned for his carrier play late in his professional career, it's not that Bisu is terrible with carriers. But he had a flawed understanding of the game state. He wasn't sure what Terran could and couldn't do. He, of course would have understood on a general level, how his build is supposed to work, and why he switched to carriers. But I felt like he wasn't quite sure, what he was supposed to prioritise and what specifically his carriers are for, and how best to proceed from there. Of course Bisu's PvT was still overall excellent, but I just wanted to make clearer the sort of understanding I was talking about, it is tied into, and virtually what you have termed decision making. The original point I was trying to make, was that people lose sight of how good Jangbi's PvT was (when he was actually playing well), because so many other protoss are good at PvT. There were comparable players in every department, but noone quite had the package like he did. If we were to use Bisu's PvZ as a standard, every other protoss is abjectly terrible at the matchup. That was in fact a point I made on our other disagreement, that Bisu had contributed so much to PvZ, cos frankly, throughout most of his career, there wasn't any other protoss carrying their weight in PvZ. And in PvZ Bisu's contribution to the PvZ metagame is so nearly total, that massive does not begin to describe it. That is in fact the very point i was trying to make, Bisu's PvZ is so ridiculously superior to every other protoss, that it skews the amount of differentiation we expect in the other match ups, and makes it harder to notice how good Jangbi's PvT was, because so many other Protoss were also good at PvT. But other protoss also being good at PvT should not take away from how good Jangbi's PvT actually was. If your PvT is the best among a whole army of other PvTs, that still makes yours pretty damn incredible. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 22:22 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Well my comparison to Bisu's PvZ in this case was mostly regarding understanding of the matchup and execution, not so much in innovation, or superiority over other protoss the matchup. But understanding of a matchup, is not merely innovation. It takes understanding merely to execute into the lategame. And I feel Jangbi's understanding of PvT when he was playing well, was in fact top notch, and I genuinely stand by the statement that it is comparable to Bisu's PvZ understanding. The difference was PvT is both better understood by other protoss, and less volatile in general, than the PvZ matchup. There were other protoss around to innovate the matchup in the little ways required, there was no competition for Bisu in PvZ. As an example I will use Bisu, for non-innovation related understanding, particularly, I felt he actually had a deficit in that department, into the PvT late game. I felt that it showed very clearly when he was panned for his carrier play late in his professional career, it's not that Bisu is terrible with carriers. But he had a flawed understanding of the game state. He wasn't sure what Terran could and couldn't do. He, of course would have understood on a general level, how his build is supposed to work, and why he switched to carriers. But I felt like he wasn't quite sure, what he was supposed to prioritise and what specifically his carriers are for, and how best to proceed from there. Of course Bisu's PvT was still overall excellent, but I just wanted to make clearer the sort of understanding I was talking about, it is tied into, and virtually what you have termed decision making. The original point I was trying to make, was that people lose sight of how good Jangbi's PvT was (when he was actually playing well), because so many other protoss are good at PvT. There were comparable players in every department, but noone quite had the package like he did. If we were to use Bisu's PvZ as a standard, every other protoss is abjectly terrible at the matchup. That was in fact a point I made on our other disagreement, that Bisu had contributed so much to PvZ, cos frankly, throughout most of his career, there wasn't any other protoss carrying their weight in PvZ. And in PvZ Bisu's contribution to the PvZ metagame is so nearly total, that massive does not begin to describe it. That is in fact the very point i was trying to make, Bisu's PvZ is so ridiculously superior to every other protoss, that it skews the amount of differentiation we expect in the other match ups, and makes it harder to notice how good Jangbi's PvT was, because so many other Protoss were also good at PvT. But other protoss also being good at PvT should not take away from how good Jangbi's PvT actually was. If your PvT is the best among a whole army of other PvTs, that still makes yours pretty damn incredible. JangBi style of PvT was more about abusing his knowledge of how to take advantage of terrans through his unit utilization, and his artful execution of that knowledge. His small scale, large scale mastery of protoss units is incredibly on point. BeSt's style of PvT was based on his abusing his understanding of when to add gateways, when to expand, when to produce probes, and when to cut down on workers to produce his army. His builds are a work of art in terms of optimization from early to mid-game, and BeSt used this to great effect against Flash during the early stages of their career, until Flash started to do his own brand of optimization against BeSt's style specifically. BeSt doesn't have the multi-tasking of Bisu, doesn't have the cleanest micro-management, nor does he have insane storm usage like the Samsung Khan protosses, and he was the most famous for his macro-managament. Bisu was way better at actual unit production, and his ability to keep pumping units from his gateways, but BeSt's knowledge of how to optimize the macro-management aspect of PvT allowed him to have seemingly better macro-management. The T1 build created by BeSt was just one of my examples of how well BeSt understood the match-up. Of course, BeSt was also kind of limited in his number of methods of winning, but in terms of understanding the standard game, he was probably the best in my opinion (no pun intended). Bisu was the best player in PvZ in terms of maximizing unit utility (his corsairs were always more abusive, just like how JangBi's units seemed to have more battling potential against the terran race), knowing which unit compositions and timings hurt the zerg race the most (Movie was also good at this versus zerg, and JangBi knew how to do this against the terran race too), and in terms of cutting every little corner possible (just like BeSt was the best at this particular aspect versus terran). That's three areas Bisu mastered in PvZ compared to the two areas mastered by JangBi in PvT. Bisu's contribution to the match-up of PvZ, while enormous, isn't as large as his contributions in terms of the creation of new build orders. I already discussed this particular topic with another poster, so I won't bother repeating myself. Like I said before, I think saying Bisu was the totality of all PvZ meta-game advancements is a fabrication created by the mythical status of his upset against sAviOr. I won't waste much time on Bisu's PvT. He was a great player, but he never mastered the match-up like some of the other protosses in his era (both in terms of in depth understanding and execution). The results he earned in that match-up was due to his ability to absorb the good build orders (that got him early game advantages if his dragoon micro-management was up to par, which it was) from PuSan earlier on during his career, and BeSt during his stay at SK Telecom T1 (the protoss coach for SK Telecom T1 once mentioned that BeSt was more creative with new build orders than Bisu, while Bisu was good at executing those builds), and overall qualities as a player such as great basic unit micro-management (his small scale dragoon micro-management was excellent), great multi-tasking, and the ability to pump out units non-stop. Your assertion that JangBi's PvT prowess has less wow factor due to the numerous other protosses that also had great success in that particular match-up is correct, however, it objectively had lower levels of mastery when compared to PvZ. In terms of styling on their opponents with impeccable unit micro-management and timing, perhaps, but not as abusive in terms of safe macro-management, which was BeSt's forte in my opinion. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 02 2017 23:09 Letmelose wrote: Bisu's contribution to the match-up of PvZ, while enormous, isn't as large as his contributions in terms of the creation of new build orders. I already discussed this particular topic with another poster, so I won't bother repeating myself. Like I said before, I think saying Bisu was the totality of all PvZ meta-game advancements is a fabrication created by the mythical status of his upset against sAviOr. Just to clarify, I'm not summarising 'the entirety of the PvZ meta' as just the advent of the Bisu build. Obviously that was one big contribution that he pioneered after Daezang, and they've been a staple of PvZ ever since. But even thereafter, he has been the one pioneering pretty much every minor variation and timing of these. When Bisu was briefly irrelevant to the matchup, the entire collective of other protoss came up with builds like the dragoon bust. While these are innovations, they are not exactly stable platforms from which to play a standard game of PvZ. I don't think it's really that unfair to say that for basically the entirety of his professional career he has been the standard by which the PvZ metagame has been defined. Others may have 'invented' builds/variations/whatever, but it's difficult to pioneer a build if you aren't actually good enough in the PvZ matchup to beat the top zergs with it consistently. As for the rest of that, I pretty much agree. I'm simply not equating how good someone is in a matchup to being better than everyone else at the matchup. I completely agree BeSt's understanding of certain parts of the matchup were better. But it's not like Jangbi's were bad (I mean i don't know, I have no information on whether he even optimises his own variations on build orders). But the fact that Jangbi maybe be bested on aspects of PvT by other players, doesn't take away from how good his PvT was. It is consistent with my very original point. Jangbi's PvT is at times really really good, sometimes the best. But top protosses are much better against terran than they are against zerg. Even being the best, you are going to have more competition in every aspect of PvT. And that he should be BeSted (pun intended :p) in some aspects, doesn't make his PvT less good, it just means other people also have really good PvT. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:12 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Just to clarify, I'm not summarising 'the entirety of the PvZ meta' as just the advent of the Bisu build. Obviously that was one big contribution that he pioneered after Daezang, and they've been a staple of PvZ ever since. But even thereafter, he has been the one pioneering pretty much every minor variation and timing of these. When Bisu was briefly irrelevant to the matchup, the entire collective of other protoss came up with builds like the dragoon bust. While these are innovations, they are not exactly stable platforms from which to play a standard game of PvZ. I don't think it's really that unfair to say that for basically the entirety of his professional career he has been the standard by which the PvZ metagame has been defined. Others may have 'invented' builds/variations/whatever, but it's difficult to pioneer a build if you aren't actually good enough in the PvZ matchup to beat the top zergs with it consistently. As for the rest of that, I pretty much agree. I'm simply not equating how good someone is in a matchup to being better than everyone else at the matchup. I completely agree BeSt's understanding of certain parts of the matchup were better. But it's not like Jangbi's were bad (I mean i don't know, I have no information on whether he even optimises his own variations on build orders). But the fact that Jangbi maybe be bested on aspects of PvT by other players, doesn't take away from how good his PvT was. It is consistent with my very original point. Jangbi's PvT is at times really really good, sometimes the best. But top protosses are much better against terran than they are against zerg. Even being the best, you are going to have more competition in every aspect of PvT. And that he should be BeSted (pun intended :p) in some aspects, doesn't make his PvT less good, it just means other people also have really good PvT. I don't think I've had such a lasting back and forth of opinions in a while. I think we've established pretty much all our opinions on Bisu and the protoss race in general. However, I'll add one more point of contention. You can't credit Bisu for being the totality of all meta-game advancements just because he had the most success with it, and became the standard for the success or failure for any evolutions that happened during his career, If that's the case whoever's the best player at the time becomes responsible for any changes in the meta-game as long as he utilizes it to reasonable success. That's like saying Flash is the totality of the late-game mech meta-game shift despite the fact that FanTaSy created the build by himself during practice, and first implemented it on a televised setting, just because Flash won more games with it, and used it to greater success than any other player. There's value of having success with implementing a certain strategy, and adding fine refinements to it, and another value of creating its idea in the first place. You can't just mix the two, and pretend that the amount of success a player has with a certain innovation gets the right to all the credit of the meta-game change that takes place exactly due to that innovation. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:58 Letmelose wrote: I don't think I've had such a lasting back and forth of opinions in a while. I think we've established pretty much all our opinions on Bisu and the protoss race in general. However, I'll add one more point of contention. You can't credit Bisu for being the totality of all meta-game advancements just because he had the most success with it, and became the standard for the success or failure for any evolutions that happened during his career, If that's the case whoever's the best player at the time becomes responsible for any changes in the meta-game as long as he utilizes it to reasonable success. That's like saying Flash is the totality of the late-game mech meta-game shift despite the fact that FanTaSy created the build by himself during practice, and first implemented it on a televised setting, just because Flash won more games with it, and used it to greater success than any other player. There's value of having success with implementing a certain strategy, and adding fine refinements to it, and another value of creating its idea in the first place. You can't just mix the two, and pretend that the amount of success a player has with a certain innovation gets the right to all the credit of the meta-game change that takes place exactly due to that innovation. I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it. I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit. For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit. For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done. It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup. From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from: Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well) Bisu build and it's many variations. Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons. Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work. Neo-Bisu builds Now. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On January 03 2017 02:00 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it. I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit. For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit. For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done. It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup. From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from: Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well) Bisu build and it's many variations. Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons. Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work. Neo-Bisu builds Now. I think the main issue with your characterization of the PvZ metagame is specifically the lack of knowledge of "Pre-Bisu" builds. This categorization is, honestly, much too broad, and it discredits the inventions which led up to the "Bisu build." The "Bisu Build" really was the accumulation of many builds which other protosses created, like the Forge FE + Building placements done by Nal-Ra, Sair/Reaver by Nal-Ra, the Sair/DT done by Daezang, etc. which LetMeLose showed before. Arguably, the Forge FE which is the standard way to start off PvZ, followed by the Gate FE (which I don't remember who first used this build) are the more everlasting and stable ways to play PvZ. This was created in the Pre-Bisu era by Nal-Ra, so to say all protosses did was come up with "timing attacks" before Bisu just seems too... dismissive. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
I wasn't dismissing everyone's contribution before him as all ins, but rather everyone else's, to the best of my knowledge, AFTER his career started. I have to be honest, I do know somewhat of the very long phase of 1 base builds, and a general outline of how all the components of the Bisu build came about, but I didn't know enough to put it in an ordered timeline, and I didn't want to do research to fill in the gaps because it wasn't relevant to the timeframe in question. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 02:00 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I'm not saying you have to be the most successful with an idea, to get the credit. But you do have to have SOME success with it. I mean, if you invent a build, go out and never win with it, or win just 1 game out of many attempts, how much credit can you really get? You did invent the build, so some... but if someone sees the build and decides they like it, and then proceeds to actually beat a bunch of high tier players with it. Then yeah, i'm going to give the latter person more credit. For our example if Fantasy, invented, then proceeded to use his build to good effect taking down a few top players before Flash caught on. Then it wouldn't matter how successful Flash is with it, that's not pioneering a build, that's just using it. Flash could get some credit if he made minor variations on it to great affect, because that is his input, but in this case Fantasy would still get alot of the credit. For Bisu's input to PvZ, I may have missed alot, but other than a bunch of fairly all-in timing attacks (which were then never built on, as they arn't stable ways to play the matchup), I really can't think of anything much other protosses have done. It may all these variations on 'Neo Bisu' builds may not be his invention (at least i can't say for a fact that they are), and having not watched every PvZ of that era, I can't say with certainty that other's haven't invented builds that Bisu has then used. But I can't recall any instances of anyone else stringing together a few noteworthy games with new builds/variations in that matchup. From what I can see, the evolution of the meta has gone from: Pre-Bisu builds (I'm just going to start from his career, I don't know the pre-Bisu PvZ meta that well) Bisu build and it's many variations. Protoss floundering in the Matchup in general, Kal is touted by some as the 'best PvZ player', Movie busts some Zerg simcities with dragoons. Protoss continue floundering in the matchup. And everyone just sucks at it, they still use older Bisu build variations, but they don't really work. Neo-Bisu builds Now. So you mention the Bisu build, which is a build first utilized by Daezang. Read this post (you'll see that Bisu himself seems to be affected by Daezang's build, because he was going for Citadel of Adun before the games played by Daezang, and going for Stargate first builds only after Daezang utilizes his build to great success against multiple zergs in the ProLeague, and MBC Survivor Tournament) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/517651-asl-ro16-day-4?page=29#564 The Neo Bisu build, which uses zealots instead of dark templars has indeed been optimized by Bisu, but to say that he was the totality of the entire evolution of the match-up, when TerAtO, PuSan were doing various variations of the "Bisu build" in 2005~2006 before it was truly optimized to great success by Daezang on Blitz, is like saying Jaedong was responsible for the invention of the three hachery lair into five hatchery build because he had by far the most success with it as well as being one of the first to use it. http://blog.naver.com/chldlfdnd123/100207595478 http://blog.naver.com/oroper/70139896008 Forge expansion was a thing before Bisu came round. Forge expansion into Stargate was a thing before Bisu came round. Daezang optimized the build by being able to pressure the zerg early on with both corsairs and dark templars, which reduced the need for mass cannons, and allowed for a faster explosion of gateways. This is the core concept of the Bisu build. Bisu used the build first shown by Daezang to great success, then added his own flavour to it throughout the years by implementing and optimizing certain details that were shown before years ago (corsairs into speedlot pressure was not a new concept), with the core concept of map control through corsairs, and pressuring the zerg as much as possible being prevalent idea. That core idea was initially first used to great success by Daezang, which is why Bisu's claim of being the totality of the entire modern meta-game taking away Daezang's main (and probably only) claim to fame. It's a robbery. Sure, Bisu was always on the fore-front of the evolution since he rose to fame, but the initial seeds that revolutionized the match-ups were the fruits of the innovations of numerous protoss players, with Daezang being the most obvious candidate for the title of the creator for the Bisu build. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
Also wanted to add, I think you are trying to attribute to me the equating of bringing about the Bisu build as being the be all and end of of PvZ, modern or otherwise. That's not what I've been saying. In fact, in my very original post, I said to the effect that Bisu build isn't the solution to PvZ, Bisu is. It's not 'now that we have the Bisu build, he has solved PvZ forever, horray and rejoice'. Quite the opposite. PvZ has still sucked for the majority of protoss, during and after Bisu's career. Yes the build is standardised now, but it's really just been Bisu going out there winning PvZs, it was still pretty terrible for protoss as a whole, Bisu build or not. It's been more of a case of 'he's the only guy actually doing well in the matchup, lets just do what he does' | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 03:40 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Same reply, I'm not dismissing anything before the Bisu build, he obviously had no affect on the PvZ meta before he started playing professionally. Keywords 'for his whole career'. Also wanted to add, I think you are trying to attribute to me the equating of bringing about the Bisu build as being the be all and end of of PvZ, modern or otherwise. That's not what I've been saying. In fact, in my very original post, I said to the effect that Bisu build isn't the solution to PvZ, Bisu is. It's not 'now that we have the Bisu build, he has solved PvZ forever, horray and rejoice'. Quite the opposite. PvZ has still sucked for the majority of protoss, during and after Bisu's career. Yes the build is standardised now, but it's really just been Bisu going out there winning PvZs, it was still pretty terrible for protoss as a whole, Bisu build or not. It's been more of a case of 'he's the only guy actually doing well in the matchup, lets just do what he does' Totally agreed. I just got confused with some of the wording, it's true, Bisu's innovations, while not necessarily the most ground breaking changes that everybody else could then implement for automatic easy games, had subtle nuances that only he could fully utilize to full potential. Peak ELO, while an incredibly biased for the modern era due to the massive influx of ProLeague games, and increased implementation of best of five series even in the lower rounds such as the round of eight of the MSL, is not that bad a measure of a player's peak performance during the modern era (where all the players benefited from the inflation of the number of games, starting from the 2008/2009 Season). Highest PvT peak ELO: JangBi (2260) 2nd highest PvT peak ELO: Stork (2259) Highest PvP peak ELO: Bisu (2267) 2nd highest PvP peak ELO: BeSt (2252) Highest PvZ peak ELO: Bisu (2327) 2nd highest PvZ peak ELO (in the modern era only, Nal_rA's era came before the massive inflation of the ProLeague schedule): Stork (2209) The only other match-up that had such massive difference of peak ELO ratings between players of the modern era was Jaedong's ZvZ (2341) to sAviOr's ZvZ (2219), or EffOrt's ZvZ (2213), if you think sAviOr's peak was too heavily influenced by the numbers from his old records. That was how further ahead of the rest of the field Bisu's PvZ was. Even Flash failed to create such massive chasms of peak ELO ratings confined to a specific match-up, although his numbers are all off the walls as well, the massive difference between Bisu's PvZ and other modern day protoss player's PvZ was almost unparalleled. | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
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