EPTOn December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote:
We really need BO3... I hope next ASL.
We really need BO3... I hope next ASL.
The whole group is a BO3 with different opponents
[ASL2] Ro16 Day 2 - Page 18
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
The whole group is a BO3 with different opponents | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10332 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. The whole point of groups is for upsets and rewards BO1 preparations. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
 Unless I'm misunderstanding, and what ppl actually are advocating is going to 1-on-1 Bo3 Elimination brackets starting in the Ro16 instead of the Ro8? If so, that's not that weird, some OSLs circa 2006 were like that, so were a lot of MSLs. But, is that superior to dual format in the Ro16?... dunno. Probably just different. You play one opponent 2-3 times instead of 2-3 opponents once each; and two losses eliminates you in either format. Half a dozen of one, six of another. But dual format has the advantage of reducing the luck of the draw. With Ro16 brackets, you could see something like Flash vs ByMaru or Miso... total stomp. Why bother? But by the Ro8, the no-hopers are largely cleaned out, everyone's pretty strong (or should be). You can sort of see why they go to brackets when they do. Maybe when and if the fields become deeper, elim brackets starting in the Ro16 will make more sense. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden310 Posts
I think we see to few rushes and aggressive playes like that these days, I was excited as hell and it was awsome to see! | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1017 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
At 2:11:30 Mind finally sees the creep in the fog of war and is apparently very upset about himself for missing it before. | ||
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Miragee
8645 Posts
On December 21 2016 21:08 Esp1noza wrote: From this ASL so far, it seems to me Jaedond will not get very far in this tourney. His longer games didn't impress me at all. His game vs Mong was really good. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
Their score is equal. And their head to head score could also be 2-3, in favor of the losing player. So he won head to head, but he lost the last BO3. This all makes no sense. BOX makes no sense in the context of groups. If you want to reform the system and add more games, then you should look at something reminiscent of pro team sports, and let everybody go head to head twice, and then let the top 2 by overall wins pass to the next round. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:27 ghrur wrote: People shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly. JD is still pretty strong at management style, just watch his FPVods vs Bisu to see that. He played poorly vs Best, but it was 1 game. Wait a bit before saying he won't make it far. It's also good to temper expectations and realize that Ro8 is pretty far already... especially for someone who just came back to BW While I agree, makes me wonder if its his decision making skills that have held him back. Against best, he had an advantage at one point but once Best took that hidden third, it went downhill. | ||
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
I wanted to see awesome macro games, but as long as Jaedong advanced, I can't really complain. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. No thanks. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On December 22 2016 01:55 BigFan wrote: Having watched Mind's fpv during that last game, yep, that explains it lol. Not seeing the creep and thinking JD is in top right XD While I agree, makes me wonder if its his decision making skills that have held him back. Against best, he had an advantage at one point but once Best took that hidden third, it went downhill. No, it's not his decision making that's problematic. He made great decisions in his best game, for the most part. He made a proper number of lings to counter the zealots, went with a smart build to contain Best in the mid game, and overall managed the army/economy tradeoff very well. The main problem seemed to be his multitasking that game. His army was caught out, not because they weren't positioned correctly, but because JD didn't notice he was getting attacked. His lurker positioning for which bases to defend made sense. It really seemed like micro-based attributes cost JD the game rather than macro-based attributes. E.G. he lost hydras cuz he was inattentive, let a dt drop in because of poor overlord spotting, had poor swarm/lurker usage, wasn't aggressively plaguing bests army, etc. these seemed more like lack of attention rather than poor decision making. Perhaps he could've gone muta after seeing the low said count, but I don't see anything else too egregious. The third base thing seems like game sense that'll get built back with more games played. | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:52 L1ghtning wrote: I don't get this obsession with BO3 in group stages from certain ppl. That wasn't even a thing back around 2010. Is this some SC2 thing? I never even considered this to be BO1 since it's group stages. BOX atleast to me means that it's a deathmatch between two opponents. Using the term in the context of a group makes no sense. Theoretically you could end up with someone going 2-0 1-2 1-2 being eliminated by someone going 0-2 2-1 2-1. Their score is equal. And their head to head score could also be 2-3, in favor of the losing player. So he won head to head, but he lost the last BO3. This all makes no sense. BOX makes no sense in the context of groups. If you want to reform the system and add more games, then you should look at something reminiscent of pro team sports, and let everybody go head to head twice, and then let the top 2 by overall wins pass to the next round. One of our guesses is that when there aren't many leagues, people want the format to help the best player win as much as possible. We wonder whether people would be complaining about bo1 duel tournaments if there were still 6 starleagues per year instead of barely 2. | ||
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noname_
466 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? Every Terran was a "Proleague Terran" except Fantasy and Flash in late BW. After ForGG's legendary championship run in July 2008, they were the only Terrans to make a final, let alone win. Heck, only 2 other Terrans even made a Ro4 after that tournament, Iris and Light, the latter of which is considered a Proleague Terran despite officially having the 3rd deepest individual run of any Terran from late 2009 to 2012. Despite Protoss having a hard time winning championships, they had a lot of variety in the Ro4 and even finals in the final few years of BW. I don't have to remind anyone of the plethora of, respectively, not top-level zergs making Ro4s (type-b, Modesty). Terran had the God and Crown Prince represent their race well, but that's it for individual leagues. Luckily we had Leta and Sea and other great Proleague Terrans to entertain us in SPL, as well as Mind and ForGG who I always liked watching but never touched a Ro4 again after 2008. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 22 2016 12:06 Crisium wrote: Every Terran was a "Proleague Terran" except Fantasy and Flash in late BW. After ForGG's legendary championship run in July 2008, they were the only Terrans to make a final, let alone win. Heck, only 2 other Terrans even made a Ro4 after that tournament, Iris and Light, the latter of which is considered a Proleague Terran despite officially having the 3rd deepest individual run of any Terran from late 2009 to 2012. Despite Protoss having a hard time winning championships, they had a lot of variety in the Ro4 and even finals in the final few years of BW. I don't have to remind anyone of the plethora of, respectively, not top-level zergs making Ro4s (type-b, Modesty). Terran had the God and Crown Prince represent their race well, but that's it for individual leagues. Luckily we had Leta and Sea and other great Proleague Terrans to entertain us in SPL, as well as Mind and ForGG who I always liked watching but never touched a Ro4 again after 2008. Good points, and I'll just add a couple of thoughts of my own. The terminology of "ProLeague-only players" were mostly used after the ProLegue got a huge inflation in the number of games played in 2007, and then another two-fold in increase for the 2008/2009 season. 2003: 208 games 2004: 249 games 2005: 369 games 2006: 389 gmaes 2007: 857 games (First massive inflation in the number of games) (First half of) 2008: 416 games 2008/2009: 1568 games (Second massive inflation in the number of games) 2009/2010: 1567 games 2010/2011: 1665 games What this meant was that after 2007, the importance of ProLeague increased dramatically, and ended the era of individual league centric scene. Player were now able to get massive amounts experience in televised games without going through the dreaded offline qualifiers. This gave birth to a whole new generation of players who were able to make a name for themselves without having to do that great in the individual leagues. However, although the modern era had two separate platforms for players to compete in, the nature of the platforms were vastly different. The map pools were different, teams had varying incentives for performing well in the ProLeague (for example, the level of incentives for playing well in the ProLeague for a team such as SK Telecom T1, and MBC Game HERO was night and day), the level of specific preparation, and the distribution of the races were different. For example, in the modern era (Season 2007 onwards), zergs were the most successful race in the higher stages of the brackets (round of four and above). The terran race was the most sucessful in the lower bracket stages, but only had eight players who managed to reach the round of four or above, which is, like you said, a number that's lower than either zerg (18) or protoss (9). However, in a reversal of fortune, zergs were having hardest time performing well in the ProLeague compared to either terran or protoss. Terran players had the most number of victories overall, as well as having the highest number of top performers. Protoss had good representation at the top also, even if they were slightly outnumbered by the other two races if we look at the overall picture, not just the top. The zerg never had a top four performer in the ProLeague apart from Jaedong since 2007, which is lower than the six protoss players who managed to be a top four ProLeague player, or the five terran players who managed to be a top four ProLeague performer. So in summary, in the 25 individual leagues that happened in the modern era, the top four spots were occupied by 35 players. T: 32% Z: 51.43% P: 36% In 7 ProLeague seasons of varying lengths (not going to count the hybrid league), the top four spots (in terms of number of victories) were occupied by 12 players. T: 41.67% Z: 8.33% P: 50% Due to the huge disparity in the success of the races in the two separate platforms of competition, it's no wonder that we had a bunch of "ProLeague-only" terran players such as Sea, Leta, HiyA, and Really. In the same vein, it's little mystery that there were a bunch of zerg players that enjoyed modest success in the individual leagues, yet never made much an impression in the ProLeague. Of the 35 individual league beasts, and 12 ProLeague beasts, only three terran players (Flash, FanTaSy, and Light), one zerg player, and six protoss players (the members of the Six Dragons, minus Kal, and Pure in his place) overlap. So there's only ten players who were able to get at least decent success across all platforms, and why it's such a pain to rate players such as Mind, ForGG, or Leta. You have to come up with a system to weigh the results across all platforms, but it's impossible because the increased level of importance of the ProLeague was not a universal standard for all teams. Tales from retired professional players such as Sea, and Leta portray a very grim reality of some of the teams (teams actively telling players not to do too well in ProLeagues because they don't have the funds to give them higher salaries if they actually do well, the coaches giving up and just letting the players do whatever they want with the builds and the entry). However, it is also true that the majority of the salaries were based on the performance in the ProLeague for a lot of the teams, which made some players try really hard in the ProLeague (perhaps even more so than in the individual leagues). Plus you have to consider that individual leagues had more prestige to the viewers because of the historical context from the past. People have all sorts of ideas about how much individual league performance matters compared to ProLeague performance, but it depends on the era, personal preference, and the teams the players played for. As for Leta. I think he is a product of incredible perserverance, dedication, and passion for the game for a player that was not particularly talented at the game, and wasn't given the best of circumstances to succeed. He played for OGN Sparkyz, a team purely made in a half-assed attempt by Ongamenet to have a voice within KeSPA, the team never had the proper funding, nor the direction to succeed as a team. Any success they had, especially before the merge with CJ Entus, was the result of the players having the desire to succeed despite the higher ups in the team having zero drive to lead their players. The team was full of rotten players such as Justin, who were not only fixing matches, but giving out replays to members of other teams, so that Leta's build could be countered in advance (streamers on Afreeca said that Leta's victory against Hwasin was one of those games). The entire team was smashed into pieces by the match fixing scandal, and it was up to him to keep this sinking ship alive in a roster that basically had zero support for him until the merge with CJ Entus happened. This is a guy who should be praised for the great things he achieved, not ridiculed for the lack of success he had compared to his hype when he really was looking to be on the road to greatness. It pisses me off when people try to join in on the slander against Leta because of some retarded comment made by Artosis back when he had a hard on for Really.  | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
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