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Afreeca Starleague Season 2
Afreeca Starleague Season 2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpDsafx.png)
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Streams
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW)
twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis)
ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream
[ASL2] Ro16 Day 2
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW) twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
Looks like I'm gonna miss the first match, and maybe second if games are short and the traffic hold me up. Oh well :/ | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
Also how is demian? I watched the two games but didn't really pay attention to the map over the gameplay (to some this probably sounds impossible, but I kinda skipped around just for the major fights because I was on a time crunch) | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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j2choe
Canada243 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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tankgirl
Canada420 Posts
looking forward to a hour long high-level TvT!! and go jaedong!! | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Minkzilla
United States17 Posts
(games will probably actually be really good, looking forward to it tomorrow) | ||
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 20 2016 16:52 n.DieJokes wrote: Jaedong is playing BeSt? God I feel like I haven't seen that since I was 16... I think I'm stay up till 5 and watch this. How does ZvP work nowadays? Is three hatch muta into five hatch hydra still the standard? Pretty much. Most aggressive zergs now opt for an aggressive 3rd hatch close to protoss and go for hydra busta. Protoss go gate first a lot and use early zealots to pressure and force zergs to make a lot of lings | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 16:52 n.DieJokes wrote: Jaedong is playing BeSt? God I feel like I haven't seen that since I was 16... I think I'm stay up till 5 and watch this. How does ZvP work nowadays? Is three hatch muta into five hatch hydra still the standard? that wasn't the standard build back then and it isn't now | ||
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HyralGambit
2439 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 17:57 Harem wrote: that wasn't the standard build back then and it isn't now I think he meant 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra which was kind of standard. | ||
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HyralGambit
2439 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:01 Grettin wrote: holy shit the studio is packed obviously its because they read my preview | ||
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
![[image loading]](https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=http%3A%2F%2Fi1270.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj620%2FAlexJamesMcIntyre%2Ftumblr_m3vs2vErqk1r2r2x7o1_500.gif&key=Q_CZ3NJwOuLe01ZCIqikQQ) | ||
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GTR
51453 Posts
why is the bottom left jankier | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:06 BLinD-RawR wrote: obviously its because they read my preview imagine if these previews would be distributed at the studio | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:11 chrisolo wrote: I am hyped for the TvT. I do not think it will be one-sided like Artosis thinks. Sharp has been very good and I believe this will be a close game. In the end, I also think Mind will take it, but he won't slay him, imho. Start to watch the other stream. Artosis has no idea that Sharp's TvT is by far his best match up and brought him into the finals last season. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:15 Miragee wrote: How did Sharp win that engagement with 2 vultures against 2 rines and 2 vultures and anti-micro? High ground advantage and I assume Mind didn't have vision of the vulture shooting. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:17 HolydaKing wrote: High ground advantage and I assume Mind didn't have vision of the vulture shooting. At least one vulture should have died when they were on even ground. I feel like Mind kept attacking the CC with his vultures or something. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:22 HolydaKing wrote: Yeah he probably could've almost ended it there, but I don't mind since because of that we have a decent game now. Haha xD Well Mind is pretty far ahead. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:24 BLinD-RawR wrote: lol sharp sent his scv train the wrong way first. I think that's a AI fault on this map, isn't it? It happened in the Ro24, too. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On December 20 2016 18:40 Miragee wrote: I think he meant 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra which was kind of standard. Yeah that's what I meant. tyty, it's been a while | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:31 chrisolo wrote: Sharp losing his Goliaths way too carelessly He's super dead anyway. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
wp by mind | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4992 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
rofl | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:41 Peeano wrote: Thx for your efforts, BLinD-RawR! its good to have a day off. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
So you took a day off for Jaedong? That's nice. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
jaedong timeeeeeeee | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:46 Miragee wrote: So you took a day off for Jaedong? That's nice. he made the right choice imo. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8etzAPs.jpg) Can he unleash the rage? | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:45 usopsama wrote: Shuttle, last season's champion, was the first to get eliminated in the RO16. Now, Sharp, last season's runner-up, may get eliminated, too. :D Level of competition has gone up, yo. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On December 20 2016 19:46 Miragee wrote: So you took a day off for Jaedong? That's nice. heh worked out for the best. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif) | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
//guess not, just DT drops. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
what a time to be alive | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
 //thank you | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
well played best | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Jaedong still not fully back to his best form. But improving. His storm-dodging is completely AWOL, tho'. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:09 Miragee wrote: Ok JD, no you have to kill some bases or Best will run away with his economy. this :/ JD didn't even take down a single mining base :/ | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:13 GTR wrote: jesus christ storms from best won him the game I don't know. It was more JD losing this game than anything else. He was pretty far ahead after the early mid-game. But then he refused to do any dmg to bests economy. No drops, no runby attempts and miserable flank attempts, basically sacrificing tons of units into Bests army. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:14 HolydaKing wrote: Jaedong going LWW again I suppose. The only way to get out of the group. He accepted his destiny | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Jaedong had an advantage in the early game when he killed 6 of BeSt's zealots for free. Unfortunately, BeSt's macro + defense completely repelled the hydra timing attack. | ||
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
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Glioburd
France1911 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:16 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: I thought he was ahead early game, but not as much so as was stated. He was sloppy as fuck late game, though, and it doesn't look like himself. His ling control early game still incredible as it once was, but not nearly as great, decisive, aggressive and great multitasking late-game. JD had a much much bigger army at the time his 4th expansion went up. Best just expanded as well and JD did nothing about it, which was very strange. He could have done so much. I agree with your assessment of his late game sloppiness. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:17 usopsama wrote: Jaedong had no answer against BeSt's zealot macro. Jaedong had an advantage in the early game when he killed 6 of BeSt's zealots for free. Unfortunately, BeSt's macro + defense completely repelled the hydra timing attack. it wasnt for free,he forced lings, Jaedong was in a good postion with a very good perspective to go even better for the late game but. The DT drop and the useless attack with his hydra forced put him behind.after that was up to best how to continue that game,he decided to expand and put pressure and eventually since jaedong took a close third and he wasnt in a position to fully contorl the map he was destined to die in late game,there was no way he could take down any mining base with the size of best army. | ||
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epi
Canada115 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:19 Miragee wrote: JD had a much much bigger army at the time his 4th expansion went up. Best just expanded as well and JD did nothing about it, which was very strange. He could have done so much. I agree with your assessment of his late game sloppiness. It seemed pretty clear to me that JD didn't know about Best's third; it wasn't hidden, exactly, but it was the normal fourth, right? More than anything, I was disappointed by Jaedong's Swarms and general Lurker control. They just didn't seem to do much. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:23 Elyvilon wrote: It seemed pretty clear to me that JD didn't know about Best's third; it wasn't hidden, exactly, but it was the normal fourth, right? More than anything, I was disappointed by Jaedong's Swarms and general Lurker control. They just didn't seem to do much. Hm yeah, I think he didn't know about it. But that's his fault as well. He had total map control at that point at dozens of lings. Just scout, no? | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O62glLW.jpg) ZvP is 1-8. I guess it is now 1-9. | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:19 Miragee wrote: JD had a much much bigger army at the time his 4th expansion went up. Best just expanded as well and JD did nothing about it, which was very strange. He could have done so much. I agree with your assessment of his late game sloppiness. Yeah, good point. I got quite nervous after I saw no more aggression. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:24 Miragee wrote: Hm yeah, I think he didn't know about it. But that's his fault as well. He had total map control at that point at dozens of lings. Just scout, no? For sure, but it informs his decision making for the next few minutes. He doesn't think Best has taken his third, so he continues to build up an army, because he reads it as a monster 2 base push, and he has the economy to be clearly economically ahead. Then his control in the battle isn't really up to standards and from that point he's just barely hanging on. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
It just needs to be said out loud sometimes | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:32 Elyvilon wrote: For sure, but it informs his decision making for the next few minutes. He doesn't think Best has taken his third, so he continues to build up an army, because he reads it as a monster 2 base push, and he has the economy to be clearly economically ahead. Then his control in the battle isn't really up to standards and from that point he's just barely hanging on. It is quite strange that Jaedong scouted all the map except the 3rd base from best……he must have misread the situation | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:35 usopsama wrote: Good thing Mind sucks, now Jaedong has a chance to advance. chance ? jaedong will out 0-2 and even if win vs SHarp that i doubt,winning vs Mind ? xDDDDDDDDDDDDD | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:35 usopsama wrote: Good thing Mind sucks, now Jaedong has a chance to advance. Huh? Mind just beat last year's ASL runner-up. Yah, I think JD will probably beat Mind, but it's sure not a gimme. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:30 usopsama wrote: ZvP is 1-8. I guess it is now 1-9. That's a rare sight. :o On December 20 2016 20:32 Elyvilon wrote: For sure, but it informs his decision making for the next few minutes. He doesn't think Best has taken his third, so he continues to build up an army, because he reads it as a monster 2 base push, and he has the economy to be clearly economically ahead. Then his control in the battle isn't really up to standards and from that point he's just barely hanging on. Yeah, I agree and that was probably his thought process. However, a simple scout would have been easy and I see no reason why he would need to "read" anything if he just could send out a scout and confirm. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:38 4Servy wrote: everything mind did made no sense to me he was so adamant on taking this third with only three tanks at the end. Guess he felt that he was in that much of a disadvantage. Odd game though his second drop was decent, first wasn't lol but Best was ready. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:39 tanngard wrote: Best looking really strong Scary strong. I'm starting to wonder who can possibly stop him, aside from Stork and Flash. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:40 [[Starlight]] wrote: Scary strong. I'm starting to wonder who can possibly stop him, aside from Stork and Flash. Bisu. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:40 [[Starlight]] wrote: Scary strong. I'm starting to wonder who can possibly stop him, aside from Stork and Flash. Nah not scary enough imo. Jaedong did a bad job of pressuring in their game today and Mind was too focused on taking a third with not enough defense. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
I second this. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:42 BigFan wrote: Nah not scary enough imo. Jaedong did a bad job of pressuring in their game today and Mind was too focused on taking a third with not enough defense. Yeah agreed. If Jaedong had shown the army control he showed against Mong in the Ro24 he probably would have won the game anyways. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:43 Miragee wrote: Yeah agreed. If Jaedong had shown the army control he showed against Mong in the Ro24 he probably would have won the game anyways. or you know the army control and lategame zvp that was beating bisu himself the other day | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:43 Miragee wrote: Yeah agreed. If Jaedong had shown the army control he showed against Mong in the Ro24 he probably would have won the game anyways. might've needed a bit better imo but yes, his late game was far off. Also, he scouted best's third when he moved probes over and his ling followed one then died to a cannon but he chose to ignore it for some reason. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:45 BigFan wrote: might've needed a bit better imo but yes, his late game was far off. Also, he scouted best's third when he moved probes over and his ling followed one then died to a cannon but he chose to ignore it for some reason. ok,he scout the third,and what can he do about it ?didnt u see Best army ? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:46 c3rberUs wrote: How did Mind beat Sharp? By playing better TvT overall | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: ok,he scout the third,and what can he do about it ?didnt u see Best army ? best could have made double expand,im surprised he didnt. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
The current map pool is brutal for ZvP. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
O L Y S H I T | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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WTCO
United States646 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
this SHarp is something else,Benzene is a map where u can wall outside your expo,you can send an early scv to check if zerg doesnt make expo so u build a barrack and complete the wall,and is very safe specially vs 9 pool speed.if you confirm zerg made the hatchery u can go 14 cc.but yeah.Sharp is something else. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
The current map pool seems to be brutal for zerg in general. Benzene now 2-8 in ZvT and both wins by JD, his second one being a BO win. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
But JD :OOOOOOOOOOO | ||
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ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
ASL1 top finishers curse is for real. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: chance ? jaedong will out 0-2 and even if win vs SHarp that i doubt,winning vs Mind ? xDDDDDDDDDDDDD ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/Pe5LWmu0E7iVy/giphy.gif) | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: chance ? jaedong will out 0-2 and even if win vs SHarp that i doubt,winning vs Mind ? xDDDDDDDDDDDDD If you seriously thought that Jaedong would have trouble against someone like Sharp, either you are trolling or you clearly don't know anything. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:54 usopsama wrote: If you seriously thought that Jaedong would have trouble against someone like Sharp, either you are trolling or you clearly don't know anything. this SHarp is something else,Benzene is a map where u can wall outside your expo,you can send an early scv to check if zerg doesnt make expo so u build a barrack and complete the wall,and is very safe specially vs 9 pool speed.if you confirm zerg made the hatchery u can go 14 cc.but yeah.Sharp is something else. | ||
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BornToPun
United States38 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On the other hand, please Jaedong! On December 20 2016 20:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: ok,he scout the third,and what can he do about it ?didnt u see Best army ? not asking for much, just try to be more aggressive. Nothing overboard, just to get Best to defend at least. Best got his fourth denied once (JD may have thought third, dunno, looked to me like he saw third though) then nothing after that. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:42 BigFan wrote: Nah not scary enough imo. Jaedong did a bad job of pressuring in their game today and Mind was too focused on taking a third with not enough defense. He's beat JD twice in this tourney... at some point, it stops being luck. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
Poll: Recommend Winners Game? Yes (10) No (5) If you have time (3) 18 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners Game? | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:51 Miragee wrote: The current map pool seems to be brutal for zerg in general. Benzene now 2-8 in ZvT and both wins by JD, his second one being a BO win. maps aren't even bad for zvp ie circuit and demian zergs have just been playing dumb lately ie taking close third on 3p map like demian and then trying to take game into lategame | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
not bad. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:58 Harem wrote: maps aren't even bad for zvp ie circuit and demian zergs have just been playing dumb lately ie taking close third on 3p map like demian and then trying to take game into lategame vs 1 gate expand a close third is better. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:57 [[Starlight]] wrote: He's beat JD twice in this tourney... at some point, it stops being luck. small sample size. I think this is more of JD beating him after having some advantage but I'm hoping they get to meet again in a bo series so that we can see who is the better player. Anyways, let's go Jaedong! | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:58 Harem wrote: maps aren't even bad for zvp ie circuit and demian zergs have just been playing dumb lately ie taking close third on 3p map like demian and then trying to take game into lategame Bad habits from SC2 maybe? Also, I love Mind, but I love Jaedong. How do I root here? | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:00 Qikz wrote: Bad habits from SC2 maybe? Also, I love Mind, but I love Jaedong. How do I root here? Ya it's rough but I want JD for sure! | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:37 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: chance ? jaedong will out 0-2 and even if win vs SHarp that i doubt,winning vs Mind ? xDDDDDDDDDDDDD HAHAHHAHHAHA pls let it happen | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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GTR
51453 Posts
edit: i guess the above explains it LOL fucking mind gaming at its best | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:35 usopsama wrote: Good thing Mind sucks, now Jaedong has a chance to advance. As I predicted. Goodbye, Mind. | ||
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ShAsTa
Belgium2841 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Mind played it almost as bad as Sharp. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
WOOOOOOOO JAEDONG | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
How fucking hilarious. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:04 classicyellow83 wrote: JD went 12 hatch 99% of the games after he came to afreeca. Mind and Sharp: "well played, JD..." | ||
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zeru
8156 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:05 Nerchio wrote: This is a trully high level of Starcraft, :D Glad the Dong made it through. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
Those mindgames... | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
"Zergs in the do or die situations go for 12 hatchery most of the time. That's why terrans can abuse it with a fast rax or 14 cc. Pool first builds is a super risky build that almost no zergs have the balls to pull out in these circumstances." After seeing Jaedong going for pool first build. "This is why Jaedong is what he is. He has balls." | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:04 GTR wrote: why the hell would sharp and mind 8rax. edit: i guess the above explains it LOL fucking mind gaming at its best "mind" gaming lol. | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
I haven't really followed BW since 2010 so I'm not up with any changes that may have happened since | ||
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FranzF1
Chile1710 Posts
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Miragee wrote: LOL "Jaedong defeats 2 terrans in less than 15 minutes" - BD Those mindgames... Let's be honest, this wasn't Jaedong beating his opponents, this was Sharp and Mind fucking up. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Letmelose wrote: Sea, before the game began. "Zergs in the do or die situations go for 12 hatchery most of the time. That's why terrans can abuse it with a fast rax or 14 cc. Pool first builds is a super risky build that almost no zergs have the balls to pull out in these circumstances." After seeing Jaedong going for pool first build. "This is why Jaedong is what he is. He has balls." He's not only the Dong, he also has balls | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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anandworld
24 Posts
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:03 classicyellow83 wrote: JD mind fucked both Sharp and Mind. JD never went 9 pool on his stream. well, this explains it lol | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:06 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: That's so poor for multiple reasons - he saw the drone attack him from the very top. Nobody sends a drone out that early that's gone horizontally left and then goes vertically downward. Unless it was super cheesy, in which case you'd bring the marines back early before. How fucking hilarious. Exactly to a pro this should never happen. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:59 shadymmj wrote: over 50k for brood war on a tuesday night. not bad. It was 85k at some point | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Nerchio wrote: Is Best the only guy practicing in scbw? hehe, | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:03 classicyellow83 wrote: JD mind fucked both Sharp and Mind. JD never went 9 pool on his stream. ![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gBOoWjU3wDI/UFdS9Y-9_wI/AAAAAAAADCQ/q-psML1GNqU/s1600/slow-clap-gif.gif) | ||
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RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 20 2016 20:30 usopsama wrote: ZvP is 1-8. I guess it is now 1-9. As long as Jaedong doesn't get a protoss in the RO8, he can continue to advance. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
He also lost to 8 rax or 14cc consistantly during stream. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:08 Marl wrote: GG get donged Terrans. Does this mean Stork vs Jaedong and Guemchi vs Best in the ro8? Possible Best vs Jaedong semi final :[]? I think the matching is different. Best and Jaedong probably can't play each other before the finals again. | ||
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Elyvilon wrote: don't all pro zergs go 12hatch 95% of the time I haven't really followed BW since 2010 so I'm not up with any changes that may have happened since No, they go 12 hatch in like 99% of games. JD is just sick! | ||
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6592 Posts
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
Group C - Bisu, herO Group D - Flash, Rain (or Movie) If this happens, herO can wreck through the competition with his ZvP | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Elyvilon wrote: don't all pro zergs go 12hatch 95% of the time I haven't really followed BW since 2010 so I'm not up with any changes that may have happened since JD lost every single game vs 8 rax and 14 cc on his stream. JD during interview. "I knew they would go 8rax or 14cc. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:11 thezanursic wrote: HOLY SHIT, I think it's very possible that the only Terran in Ro8 will be Flash. Group C - Bisu, herO Group D - Flash, Rain (or Movie) If this happens, herO can wreck through the competition with his ZvP Look at the map statistics. hero is going to get destroyed in ZvP because of the map pool. I do hope that you are right though. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:07 Letmelose wrote: Sea, before the game began. "Zergs in the do or die situations go for 12 hatchery most of the time. That's why terrans can abuse it with a fast rax or 14 cc. Pool first builds is a super risky build that almost no zergs have the balls to pull out in these circumstances." After seeing Jaedong going for pool first build. "This is why Jaedong is what he is. He has balls." Haha brilliant meta thinking by JD On December 20 2016 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i can expect mInd 8 rax,his control is so good,but what the hell was he thinking when he saw that drone ? zerg scouted with 7 drone or something ? Yeah I'm also confused when he scouted main( did he actually scout high enough to see creep?) that he didn't immediately pull rines instead of still chasing for ovie. Overall very sloppy play by Mind. Sharp I can forgive, he was desperate to get an early lead so tried 8raxing, got mindfucked with the scout/droneblock. | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote: What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases. What are you talking about PvZ is very Zerg favored right now. Edit: Well this season it seems, looking at the statistics you are right, which is really strange since Zergs were raping protoss 2013 to 2016 | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote: What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases. Up until recently, Zergs did stomp all over every Protoss not named Bisu (actually, Bisu himself fell to a personal low winrate one time.) Idk what happened in the gap though. | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote: What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases. Statistical outlier. Also I guess most zerg focus on training ZvT, and neglect ZvP. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516873-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-nov Effort and Hero both have more ZvT games than ZvP games | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 Nerchio wrote: Is there any worse format that you can come up with other than bo1s well, they could just roll the dice too. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:08 4Servy wrote: Exactly to a pro this should never happen. It's not the first time something like this happened. Luxury 5pools Leta in the following vod and the scv clearly sees the lings but Leta's reaction was as if he didnt notice the lings in the first place ie no wall and building rax in location where lings can kill rines on spawn. He also decided to make factory instead of bunker too. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 bovienchien wrote: Mind saw jeadong's drone who scout early but I don't understand Mind didn't know Jeadonng's hatch in the top left even he scouted into there and Mind save little his time when he left to other location quickly. Mind was nervous | ||
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 bovienchien wrote: Mind saw jeadong's drone who scout early but I don't understand Mind didn't know Jeadonng's hatch in the top left even he scouted into there and Mind save little his time when he left to other location quickly. That drone was way, WAY too early to be a scout from top right. Mind had a brain fart... Or a mind fart if you will! | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:16 HolydaKing wrote: well, they could just roll the dice too. or flip a coin.. | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 c3rberUs wrote: Up until recently, Zergs did stomp all over every Protoss not named Bisu (actually, Bisu himself fell to a personal low winrate one time.) Idk what happened in the gap though. 1. This set of maps might just be more Protoss favored. 2. Might be giant fluke, it is just 10 or so games, if we had a proleague season with over 50 PvZs, maybe we could get more accurate stats. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 Nerchio wrote: Is there any worse format that you can come up with other than bo1s Round robin takes longer time. 4 people in a round of robin takes six games, whereas double elimination best of one format takes five games for four people, which makes for easier scheduling for broadcasters. It's scheduling decision, quite simply speaking. | ||
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anandworld
24 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:16 Harem wrote: It's not the first time something like this happened. Luxury 5pools Leta in the following vod and the scv clearly sees the lings but Leta's reaction was as if he didnt notice the lings in the first place ie no wall and building rax in location where lings can kill rines on spawn. He also decided to make factory instead of bunker too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaI8TdMcxWs Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:18 Letmelose wrote: Round robin takes longer time. 4 people in a round of robin takes six games, whereas double elimination best of one format takes five games for four people, which makes for easier scheduling for broadcasters. It's scheduling decision, quite simply speaking. Also, you don't have to deal with potential tiebreakers. Effort/go.go/Shine never forget | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:19 anandworld wrote: Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before. He won his last two games vs JD. There was a 2port game on icarus and then a really nice build on Jade where he denied all scouting from JD with Goliaths and made JD think it was a mech build but Leta had switched back into bio. | ||
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GTR
51453 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:19 anandworld wrote: Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before. in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much" (not verbatim but yeah you get my drift) | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:18 Letmelose wrote: Round robin takes longer time. 4 people in a round of robin takes six games, whereas double elimination best of one format takes five games for four people, which makes for easier scheduling for broadcasters. It's scheduling decision, quite simply speaking. Yah. And round robins can result in numerous tiebreakers on top of that, too. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:22 GTR wrote: in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much" (not verbatim but yeah you get my drift) I believe he also said that Really was a superior player to Leta. Let that sink in for a moment. | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 duke91 wrote: Statistical outlier. Also I guess most zerg focus on training ZvT, and neglect ZvP. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516873-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-nov Effort and Hero both have more ZvT games than ZvP games On December 01 2016 20:53 classicyellow83 wrote: #1 Flash TvT: 16-7 (69.6%) TvZ: 37-27 (57.8%) TvP: 49-14 (77.8%) Overall: 102-48 (68.0%) Opponents: Terran: Last 1-3, Sea 4-2, Mind 6-2, Mong 1-0, Sharp 1-0, sSak 1-0, Leta 1-0, Rush 1-0 Zerg: Effort 10-9, Hero 7-7, Zero 7-3, Soulkey 3-5, Larva 6-3, Miso 2-0, Terror 2-0 Protoss: Bisu 9-4, Free 6-1, Best 6-0, Shuttle 9-1, Rain 3-2, Jaehoon 2-0, Sky 10-6, Britney 1-0, Horang2 1-0, Tyson 2-0 #2 Hero ZvT: 70-48 (59.3%) ZvZ: 7-7 (50%) ZvP: 57-25 (69.5%) Overall: 134-80 (62.6%) Opponets: Terran: Last 5-9, Rush 3-4, Shinee 1-2, Leta 1-2, Flash 7-7, Firebathero 1-1, Sea 8-7, Mind 8-7, Light 3-2, Sharp 1-0, Hiya 4-2, Iris 2-0, Piano 6-3, sSak 6-0, Mong 13-2 Zerg: Effort 1-4, Soulkey 0-1, Miso 4-2, Zero 2-0 Protoss: Shuttle 9-8, Lazy 1-0, Sky 1-0, Horang2 2-0, Free 9-6, Best 6-3, Rain 6-3, Tyson 3-0, Bisu 7-3, Guemchi 5-1, Movie 8-1 #3 Effort ZvT: 64- 47 (57.6%) ZvZ: 7-2 (77.7%) ZvP: 70-36 (66%) Overall: 141-85 (62.3%) Opponents: Terran: Flash 9:10, Mind 5:6, Light 1:2, Sharp 0:1, Last 13-13, Piano 5-5, Hiya 2-2, NaDa 1-0, Rush 1:0, sSak 1-0, Mong 12-6, Sea 14-2 Zerg: Larva 1-1, Hero 4-1, Zero 2-0 Protoss: Bisu 8-10, Sky 4-3, Shuttle 13-11, Horang2 2-0, Rain 7-4, Free 6-3, Guemchi 4-1, Nal_ra 3-0, Tyson 5-1, Movie 8-3, Best 10-0 #4 Last TvT: 15-6 (71.4%) TvZ: 42-26 (61.7%) TvP: 33-24 (57.8%) Overall: 90-56 (61.6%) Opponents: Terran: Rush 0-1, Leta 0-1, Shinee 0-1, Hiya 2-1, NaDa 2-1, 몽군 1-0, Sea 1-0, Ample 1-0, Flash 3-1, Light 2-0, Mind 3-0 Zerg: Zerg 13-13, Zero 9-7, Larva 4-1, Soulkey 3-0, Hero 9-5, Miso 4-0 Protoss Bisu 2-6, Sky 1-2, Tyson 1-2, Shuttle 5-5, Movie 2-2, Rain 3-1, Horang2 3-0, Free 9-4, Best 7:2 #5 Larva ZvT: 32-28 (53.3%) ZvZ: 4-2 (66.6%) ZvP : 42-27 (60.8%) Overall: 78-57 (57.7%) Opponents: Terran: Flash 3-6, Last 1-4, Sea 2-6, Piano 5-3, Mong 6-1, Hiya 3-5, Icarus 2-1, Sharp 4-1, NaDa 1-0, Rush 2-1, Iris 2-0, Light 1-0 Zerg: Effort 1-1, Terror 1-0, Shine 2-1 protoss: Bisu 5-4, Guemchi 10-7, Shuttle 6-5, Free 2-0, Sky 9-2, Best 3-6, Horang2 2-1, Noble 3-1, Rain 0-1, Jaehoon 1-0, Britney 1-0 I think this is partially due to the fact that overplayed maps such as Fighting Spirit ended up not being as balanced as people thought they were back in 2009. These stats are very interesting though. Something I'm curious about is if Flash's winrate is lower in TvZ due to him just not being as good at it at the moment, or the fact that the field is just more competative than TvP. Last seems to have better records in TvZ than Flash overall, and versus certain opponents, so there is definitely improvements to be made, but I'm also wondering if the current practice environment even allows for players like Flash to be soo dominating since the practice environment is very different than it was back in the era of team houses. | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 Nerchio wrote: Is there any worse format that you can come up with other than bo1s I agree, but it does take way longer if they are Bo3. I think the elimination matches should be Bo3 and the initial should be Bo1, this alone would mean that the broadcast would be twice as long though due to an extra 3 to 6 games. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:22 GTR wrote: in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much" (not verbatim but yeah you get my drift) Harsh. Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? | ||
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dantroid
United States10 Posts
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:17 thezanursic wrote: 1. This set of maps might just be more Protoss favored. 2. Might be giant fluke, it is just 10 or so games, if we had a proleague season with over 50 PvZs, maybe we could get more accurate stats. I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert. It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now. | ||
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anandworld
24 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Harsh. Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like Sea and FBH, who was good in ProLeague but not in individual tourneys? Leta got hyped because he had a single deep run in the MSL and had a hot ace match streak. I'm not really convinced he was better than Sea (when he wasn't slumping) or prime FBH in TvT and TvZ. But like our Cheater Terran said, the only rival for Fantasy is Flash and not Leta. | ||
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thezanursic
5484 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:29 4Servy wrote: I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert. It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now. Yes, but I tell you that Protoss was doing horribly prior to ASL 2, All the way from the death of OGN to ASL 2, Protoss were doing terribly versus Zerg. It might just go back to normal in the next season of ASL 3 | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Harsh. Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:34 Qikz wrote: Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy. I agreed. In 2012 Fantasy was the best player in the world. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Harsh. Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? Considering there's only been four terran champions post-2007 (Mind, Flash, ForGG, and FanTaSy) era, every single terran who were formidible in the ProLeague during the same period (Sea, Leta, and Light) were under-performers in individual leagues. Mind and ForGG would be the exception to the general rule that terrans did much better in a ProLeague setting, and the lower bracket stages of the individual leagues. I think people are going in hard on Leta way too much. Who else would you propose for the title of the second best terran behind Flash before FanTaSy? It's not as clear cut as one might imagine, and Leta is as good a candidate as any, in my opinion. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:34 Qikz wrote: Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy. Did not say he was. Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says. | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:35 TT1 wrote: Bo1 isnt as big of a deal in BW because theres way less variance, usually the best players end up winning. Yea you'll get the occasional 9pool vs proxy/cc first games but you rarely get back to back games like that, this isnt SC2 where you get way more B.O wins. Yeah, I feel this way too. Bo1 in BW feels pretty alright to me. In SC2 I would feel really frustrated, though. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:36 [[Starlight]] wrote: Did not say he was. Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says. Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person! Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:38 usopsama wrote: He didn't get slaughtered by Jangbi. It was close and Fantasy made some mistakes in the end. I would put Fantasy above Jangbi in 2012 easily. Fantasy's showing was generally very strong while Jangbi always seemed to be a bit wonky and had a good portion of luck going in his way. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18407 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:15 Nerchio wrote: Is there any worse format that you can come up with other than bo1s They could play SC2 | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:43 Qikz wrote: Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person! Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments. Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:48 [[Starlight]] wrote: Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). You can talk about hand egg, that's fine! | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:46 Miragee wrote: He didn't get slaughtered by Jangbi. It was close and Fantasy made some mistakes in the end. I would put Fantasy above Jangbi in 2012 easily. Fantasy's showing was generally very strong while Jangbi always seemed to be a bit wonky and had a good portion of luck going in his way. They were the top 2 players in the world, period. While I'm a huge JangBi fan, I have absolutely no problem when people put FanTaSy over him in those waning years of professional play. If it hadn't ended there, perhaps we would have seen them separate themselves further from the rest of the scene. ... I'll take the dual championships though. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:48 [[Starlight]] wrote: Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition. The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around. | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
If you have a group with say, 3 Terrans in it, you could end up with the group easily taking 6-8 hours. Couple that with starting time (19:00 KST) and the group wouldn't end before 1am...on a work day! I even suspect the ASL went to knockout groups to avoid the tiebreaker rule and the possibility of endless matches. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On December 20 2016 22:01 Letmelose wrote: I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition. The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around. I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 22:52 BisuDagger wrote: I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential. Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On December 20 2016 22:58 Letmelose wrote: Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round. I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time. | ||
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lovel0ve1
28 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:29 4Servy wrote: I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert. It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now. I had the exact same thoughts lately. I watched Ro 24 A,C,D and today all in the afreeca television studio. The P vs Z I saw there made me ask myself "How does Zerg fight against the Protoss ball? How does it work again?". The single Hydra timing win from soulkey was the exception. Actually, I thought that Jaedong would win vs Best today, because he certainly practiced the situation when protoss has the ball and walks around in the center and sometimes attacks expansions... Brood War is a tough and merciless game. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:13 lazz wrote: I actually enjoyed the last two games. Good players have to mix in different strategies. Zerg can't just go 12 hatch every game because his opponents would exploit him. Terran can't go racks first every game because then the Zerg would exploit him, etc. They have to have a game theory optimal mix of opening build orders. People should understand this and not be so quick to bemoan BO losses. It's an intrinsic part of any game with imperfect information Yeah, it's like how zergs have actually been making lurker openings work lately just because terrans were being too predictable with +1 openings. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:14 BisuDagger wrote: I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time. Since we're on the topic, let's get into it. 1) Top three overall post-2007 (since Flash made his debut, the ProLeague switched to a 5 day schedule) 2) Top three for each season (Season 2007, 2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, and post 2011 excluding the hydrid era) | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) The first 2 games were good. Afterwards not so much. But who cares if BeSt and Jaedong advance Edit: Also I thought that Tasteless was the best caster so far on the ENG studio cast. He has the passion and it's obvious he has kept up more than the other two( which is no criticism for Rapid) | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:25 Letmelose wrote: Since we're on the topic, let's get into it. 1) Top three overall post-2007 (since Flash made his debut, the ProLeague switched to a 5 day schedule) 2) Top three for each season (Season 2007, 2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, and post 2011 excluding the hydrid era) Man, that's so much data to go over lol. Can't we discuss protoss, that's so much more fun and easier to debate TT. Without reading back I can't answer all that right now. I'll try and answer this after work though because it is cool to read back on. :D | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:40 TheNewEra wrote: Couldn't catch the games live but got to watch them without getting spoilered. The last game was sooo unlucky for Mind It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) The first 2 games were good. Afterwards not so much. But who cares if BeSt and Jaedong advance Edit: Also I thought that Tasteless was the best caster so far on the ENG studio cast. He has the passion and it's obvious he has kept up more than the other two( which is no criticism for Rapid) I agree that Tasteless makes a BIG difference. Tasteless on play-by-play and Artosis on color commentary is the best tandem. I like Rapid, but I would like him to tone down the comedic byplay some and be a bit more serious. Some humor is OK, too much can be goofy. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
edit: Also how did that last game work exactly? He saw the drone going down, saw no hatch at the natural and didn't go far enough to see the creep. Weird game | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2016 00:24 Chris_Havoc wrote: Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it. One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments. Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no? | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:57 Chris_Havoc wrote: I agree that Tasteless makes a BIG difference. Tasteless on play-by-play and Artosis on color commentary is the best tandem. I like Rapid, but I would like him to tone down the comedic byplay some and be a bit more serious. Some humor is OK, too much can be goofy. TBF Rapid is the only one who was never THAT involved in BW and was mostly a fan. That's why I'm fine with the way he casted though I'm happy that Tastosis seem to work better in BW | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 21 2016 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no? The problem is this: Mind scouted the top left. He didn't see a hatch at the nat so he went up the ramp. He went a little bit further to spot the creep and turn around. I think he actually turned around too quickly and didn't see the creep. That's why he thought Jaedong must be in the top right corner, where he sent his marines to. This is not the first time somebody outsmarted himself by trying to only peak for the creep but turning around to early. Now the real weird thing is that he pushed out at all. If he sees that drone and concludes Jaedong must be in the right corner then it's sure as hell that there is some kind of early pool, might even be 4/5 pool. In every fucking case the terran with an 8 rax should stay defensive and build a bunker because otherwise he is not going to survive. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Larva just tried to pull JD and went 9 pool against Flash and got smacked. Haha! Even if FlaSh goes 14CC don't try to pull 9pool against God. Today's games: Sharp just needed to block his ramp with scvs, really really bad micro. But Mind, WTF?! Why you didn't scout till end? Knowing when to turn back when not seeing creep should be automated after nine million games he played... he turned his scouting scv back way too early. Glad to see JD and 1st zerg to advance ro8. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
 Would've liked to have heard any interview with Mind afterwards. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:14 BisuDagger wrote: I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time. Leta was awful until, like, Spring 2008. About halfway through that proleague seasons something clicked with him and he started winning a lot in Proleague. Why are we talking about Leta exactly, he was one of my favorite players but he isn't even in this tournament | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2016 00:52 Miragee wrote: The problem is this: Mind scouted the top left. He didn't see a hatch at the nat so he went up the ramp. He went a little bit further to spot the creep and turn around. I think he actually turned around too quickly and didn't see the creep. That's why he thought Jaedong must be in the top right corner, where he sent his marines to. This is not the first time somebody outsmarted himself by trying to only peak for the creep but turning around to early. Now the real weird thing is that he pushed out at all. If he sees that drone and concludes Jaedong must be in the right corner then it's sure as hell that there is some kind of early pool, might even be 4/5 pool. In every fucking case the terran with an 8 rax should stay defensive and build a bunker because otherwise he is not going to survive. Yeah i got that far in my thoughts as well, he basically didn't account for the drone no matter what? If it is already there he either has to be top left or some cheese is going on i guess?! I checked the pov stream and yeah he didn't see a natural and didn't see creep so i get that part, still the drone is the mysterious factor here i think ^^ Well sometimes the pressure is too high and you make silly mistakes, that's how starcraft goes. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:46 BisuDagger wrote: Man, that's so much data to go over lol. Can't we discuss protoss, that's so much more fun and easier to debate TT. Without reading back I can't answer all that right now. I'll try and answer this after work though because it is cool to read back on. :D Sure thing. There was a time when Leta was a prime candidate second best terran in my opinion. The hype behind him was understandable even if he never fulfilled it. This is Leta's career in the ProLeague Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 1-4 (34th best terran) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 2-3 (21st best terran) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 14-6 (2nd best terran) Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 49-21 (2nd best terran) Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 43-26 (3rd best terran) Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: 27-22 (7th best terran) SK Planet ProLeague: 12-6 (3rd best terran) So Leta's best season would be his 2008/2009 effort. Within this period, we had a year and half's worth of ProLeague. and six individual leagues happening. This is Leta's performance in those. Incruit OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers Clubday MSL: Round of 32 Lost Saga MSL: Round of 8 Batoo OGN StarLeague: Round of 16 Bacchus 2009 StarLeague: Round of 8 Avalon MSL: Round of 32 So Leta's absolute peak for OGN StarLeague/MSL/ProLeague performance would be early 2009. At this particular point of his career, this is Leta's credentials. OGN StarLeague: Round of 16, only FanTaSy and Hwasin advance further as terran players MSL: Round of 8, and Leta is the terran that got furthest in the league alongside ForGG, and NaDa ProLeague: 4th most number of victories, and the second overall best terran behind Flash There are four terran players who are both in the round of 16 in both the OGN StarLeague and MSL at this point in time. Flash, Leta, and Hwasin. Hwasin has a poor ProLeague showing with a 18-22 record, and drops out earlier than Leta in the MSL. FanTaSy is a good candidate as the second best terran alongside Leta, but he has a record of 29-21 in the ProLeague, which is respectable, but there are 17 players above him, and Leta is 4th in the rankings only behind Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu. He also drops out of the MSL in the round of 32. So in early 2009, we have FanTaSy who is the best performing terran in the OGN StarLeague by far, but has seven terran players progressing further than him in the MSL, and five terran players out performing him in the ProLeague. Leta at this point is the joint-best performing terran in the MSL as wellas defeating Flash 2-1 on the way, and only going out 2-3 to the eventual champion. He loses out to FanTaSy after a tie-breaker for the spot in the round of eight, but puts up a reasonable performance in the group stages before bowing out. He also is the second best terran, and the fourth best player overall in the year long season of the ProLeague. At this moment, you have Leta, who has been second best performing terran in the ProLeague by a considerable distance for over a year. He also starts breaking into the bracket stages for both the individual leagues, and shows that he can defeat top level players such as Flash in a series. Without the hindsight of knowing that this would be the absolute peak of his trajectory, I think the hype for him was understandable. After qualifying for the individual leagues for the first time in his career in 2008, he was steadily progressing deeper and deeper into the tournament bracket stages, as well as sustaining a level of excellence in the ProLeague that was not matched by any other terran apart from Flash. I fully understand that looking back now that he wasn't all he was hyped up to be, and FanTaSy filled that void instead, but for a brief moment in time, it was not ludicrous to suggest that Leta would become the second best terran after Flash should the trajectory he took from 2007 to 2008, 2008 to 2009 continue. He turned from a nobody that made his television debut in 2007, into a beast in the ProLeague within a year, then a year after that, added minor individual success as well as increasing his ProLeague might over time. Hindsight is 20/20, but back then, I believe that he was a perfectly fine candidate for the title of the second best terran given his rate of improvement, work ethic, and the trajectory of his career. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
On December 21 2016 01:05 Elyvilon wrote: Leta was awful until, like, Spring 2008. About halfway through that proleague seasons something clicked with him and he started winning a lot in Proleague. Why are we talking about Leta exactly, he was one of my favorite players but he isn't even in this tournament leta is a beautiful person both visually and in game nothing wrong with talking about him :3 also hiya GOAT terran | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
edit: ok maybe not JD said in his interview that at the start of the game while splitting his drones, he decided to do it on impulse. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
He was complitely opposite to what the Calm was - good in PL, bad in individual tournaments. From a hindsigh, I think he was pretty far from beeing S-class player, but his consistent wraith victories against Zergs convinced me that those units are fine alternative to more conservative terran play. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:20 lovel0ve1 wrote: I had the exact same thoughts lately. I watched Ro 24 A,C,D and today all in the afreeca television studio. The P vs Z I saw there made me ask myself "How does Zerg fight against the Protoss ball? How does it work again?". The single Hydra timing win from soulkey was the exception. Actually, I thought that Jaedong would win vs Best today, because he certainly practiced the situation when protoss has the ball and walks around in the center and sometimes attacks expansions... Brood War is a tough and merciless game. JD did a really unconventional build. Zerg can straight up beat the protoss army in mid game when mutas pop and snipe the high templar, and again after getting 4 gas and pumping ultras. I'm not sure why JD didn't build mutas or ultras when Best had no reavers and almost no corsairs. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On December 21 2016 02:03 iamho wrote: JD did a really unconventional build. Zerg can straight up beat the protoss army in mid game when mutas pop and snipe the high templar, and again after getting 4 gas and pumping ultras. I'm not sure why JD didn't build mutas or ultras when Best had no reavers and almost no corsairs. I could be wrong but his control with a big army seemed a bit sloppy? Losing Hydras and Lurkers all over the place for free, and to (amazing) Storms as well. That can't have been good for his game. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:33 classicyellow83 wrote: For fuck sakes. People shitting on JD on YGOSU for going zergling all in. -_-;;;;; lol. is 9pool zvt considered an all-in there? | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On December 21 2016 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote: I checked the pov stream and yeah he didn't see a natural and didn't see creep so i get that part, still the drone is the mysterious factor here i think ^^ Can you tell the link where you watched that? | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote: They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?! Haha, the moment I read this post I knew it could only be a mapmaker who wrote that. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote: They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?! it's bc the old one had mining problems compared to other starting locations | ||
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Minkzilla
United States17 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 21 2016 02:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote: lol. is 9pool zvt considered an all-in there? Back in the day it was considered all-in'ish or at least cheesy because you had to surprise the terran with it. I mean, there were some really impressive 9 pool/overpool builds in ZvT that were planned for a macro game (for example Zero vs Flash on Match Point). But it's a rarity I would say. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:40 classicyellow83 wrote: it's bc the old one had mining problems compared to other starting locations There was no mining problem. If anything a splitting problem. I don't really like the solution though... | ||
Skeggaba
Korea (South)1556 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On December 21 2016 04:01 Freakling wrote: There was no mining problem. If anything a splitting problem. I don't really like the solution though... Players were complaining so..... | ||
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
It's too risky. Terran sucks early game. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
 Best | ||
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ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 21 2016 02:03 iamho wrote: JD did a really unconventional build. Zerg can straight up beat the protoss army in mid game when mutas pop and snipe the high templar, and again after getting 4 gas and pumping ultras. I'm not sure why JD didn't build mutas or ultras when Best had no reavers and almost no corsairs. JD's build has been used against 1 gate openings since around late 2015, and is the build that has been used the most along with 5 hatch before gas in the last year. Example games would be Effort vs Bisu VNSL finals games 1 and 3. Muta switch is risky vs fast 8gate(aka 2 base all in) which Best does a lot(Shuttle too), if anything Bests 3rd was unconventional and was scouted late (props to him). Also pros rarely go 4 gas ultras, this was already happening a lot in Kespa era. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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HaN-
France1920 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:51 Miragee wrote: Back in the day it was considered all-in'ish or at least cheesy because you had to surprise the terran with it. I mean, there were some really impressive 9 pool/overpool builds in ZvT that were planned for a macro game (for example Zero vs Flash on Match Point). But it's a rarity I would say. Zero vs Flash was 12pool. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 21 2016 02:59 outscar wrote: Can you tell the link where you watched that? http://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/16303353 Here it is | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
You have any actual insights into the background? Or are you just speculating like me? | ||
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
And it doesnt hurt that the sexiest player of all time advanced to the ro8. | ||
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Varbind
Canada113 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:50 Minkzilla wrote: Not the best games, but they were exciting in their own right. I'm just happy JD got through. Sadly his protoss seems fairly weak, and there are going to be a lot of protoss from here on out. I believe in the Dong though. He will pull through. Either way im fucking pumped for more ASL. I forgot how much more fun it is to watch BW than sc2. Couldn't agree more | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. won't happen. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 21 2016 03:50 Minkzilla wrote: I believe in the Dong though. He will pull through. Either way im fucking pumped C0de-rich post there. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 21 2016 09:12 Elroi wrote: First time listening to Bisudagger. He nailed the solo cast. I enjoyed every minute. Yeah, BD did a really good job. His analysis was on point pretty much all the time. Still would like to see him get his casting partner back (either FlashFTW returns, or he gets someone else). I think that would make him even better, and it's always nice to have someone to play off of. | ||
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Engdrew
United States890 Posts
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:06 Harem wrote: seeing dirty 8rax'ers get punished is so carthartic | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 21 2016 13:56 Engdrew wrote: Just finished watching the VOD for this, I can't believe Mind didn't see the creep LOL. Woes of being too "quick" for your own good. same, dang. I was wondering why he sent the marines there. Thought it was to snipe the OL originally and he saw the main but well, that explains everything lol | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 21 2016 11:35 [[Starlight]] wrote: Yeah, BD did a really good job. His analysis was on point pretty much all the time. Still would like to see him get his casting partner back (either FlashFTW returns, or he gets someone else). I think that would make him even better, and it's always nice to have someone to play off of. New Zealand and Australia confirmed too nice. Im never coming back. Jk but ill try to come back for group D, otherwise expect me back for the quarterfinals. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 21 2016 15:18 FlaShFTW wrote: New Zealand and Australia confirmed too nice. Im never coming back. Jk but ill try to come back for group D, otherwise expect me back for the quarterfinals. groovy.  | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. The whole group is a BO3 with different opponents | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. The whole point of groups is for upsets and rewards BO1 preparations. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Unless I'm misunderstanding, and what ppl actually are advocating is going to 1-on-1 Bo3 Elimination brackets starting in the Ro16 instead of the Ro8? If so, that's not that weird, some OSLs circa 2006 were like that, so were a lot of MSLs. But, is that superior to dual format in the Ro16?... dunno. Probably just different. You play one opponent 2-3 times instead of 2-3 opponents once each; and two losses eliminates you in either format. Half a dozen of one, six of another. But dual format has the advantage of reducing the luck of the draw. With Ro16 brackets, you could see something like Flash vs ByMaru or Miso... total stomp. Why bother? But by the Ro8, the no-hopers are largely cleaned out, everyone's pretty strong (or should be). You can sort of see why they go to brackets when they do. Maybe when and if the fields become deeper, elim brackets starting in the Ro16 will make more sense. | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
I think we see to few rushes and aggressive playes like that these days, I was excited as hell and it was awsome to see! | ||
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Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1011 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
At 2:11:30 Mind finally sees the creep in the fog of war and is apparently very upset about himself for missing it before. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 21 2016 21:08 Esp1noza wrote: From this ASL so far, it seems to me Jaedond will not get very far in this tourney. His longer games didn't impress me at all. His game vs Mong was really good. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
Their score is equal. And their head to head score could also be 2-3, in favor of the losing player. So he won head to head, but he lost the last BO3. This all makes no sense. BOX makes no sense in the context of groups. If you want to reform the system and add more games, then you should look at something reminiscent of pro team sports, and let everybody go head to head twice, and then let the top 2 by overall wins pass to the next round. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:27 ghrur wrote: People shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly. JD is still pretty strong at management style, just watch his FPVods vs Bisu to see that. He played poorly vs Best, but it was 1 game. Wait a bit before saying he won't make it far. It's also good to temper expectations and realize that Ro8 is pretty far already... especially for someone who just came back to BW While I agree, makes me wonder if its his decision making skills that have held him back. Against best, he had an advantage at one point but once Best took that hidden third, it went downhill. | ||
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
I wanted to see awesome macro games, but as long as Jaedong advanced, I can't really complain. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | ||
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usopsama
6502 Posts
On December 21 2016 07:06 HaN- wrote: We really need BO3... I hope next ASL. No thanks. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On December 22 2016 01:55 BigFan wrote: Having watched Mind's fpv during that last game, yep, that explains it lol. Not seeing the creep and thinking JD is in top right XD While I agree, makes me wonder if its his decision making skills that have held him back. Against best, he had an advantage at one point but once Best took that hidden third, it went downhill. No, it's not his decision making that's problematic. He made great decisions in his best game, for the most part. He made a proper number of lings to counter the zealots, went with a smart build to contain Best in the mid game, and overall managed the army/economy tradeoff very well. The main problem seemed to be his multitasking that game. His army was caught out, not because they weren't positioned correctly, but because JD didn't notice he was getting attacked. His lurker positioning for which bases to defend made sense. It really seemed like micro-based attributes cost JD the game rather than macro-based attributes. E.G. he lost hydras cuz he was inattentive, let a dt drop in because of poor overlord spotting, had poor swarm/lurker usage, wasn't aggressively plaguing bests army, etc. these seemed more like lack of attention rather than poor decision making. Perhaps he could've gone muta after seeing the low said count, but I don't see anything else too egregious. The third base thing seems like game sense that'll get built back with more games played. | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:52 L1ghtning wrote: I don't get this obsession with BO3 in group stages from certain ppl. That wasn't even a thing back around 2010. Is this some SC2 thing? I never even considered this to be BO1 since it's group stages. BOX atleast to me means that it's a deathmatch between two opponents. Using the term in the context of a group makes no sense. Theoretically you could end up with someone going 2-0 1-2 1-2 being eliminated by someone going 0-2 2-1 2-1. Their score is equal. And their head to head score could also be 2-3, in favor of the losing player. So he won head to head, but he lost the last BO3. This all makes no sense. BOX makes no sense in the context of groups. If you want to reform the system and add more games, then you should look at something reminiscent of pro team sports, and let everybody go head to head twice, and then let the top 2 by overall wins pass to the next round. One of our guesses is that when there aren't many leagues, people want the format to help the best player win as much as possible. We wonder whether people would be complaining about bo1 duel tournaments if there were still 6 starleagues per year instead of barely 2. | ||
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noname_
457 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? Every Terran was a "Proleague Terran" except Fantasy and Flash in late BW. After ForGG's legendary championship run in July 2008, they were the only Terrans to make a final, let alone win. Heck, only 2 other Terrans even made a Ro4 after that tournament, Iris and Light, the latter of which is considered a Proleague Terran despite officially having the 3rd deepest individual run of any Terran from late 2009 to 2012. Despite Protoss having a hard time winning championships, they had a lot of variety in the Ro4 and even finals in the final few years of BW. I don't have to remind anyone of the plethora of, respectively, not top-level zergs making Ro4s (type-b, Modesty). Terran had the God and Crown Prince represent their race well, but that's it for individual leagues. Luckily we had Leta and Sea and other great Proleague Terrans to entertain us in SPL, as well as Mind and ForGG who I always liked watching but never touched a Ro4 again after 2008. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 22 2016 12:06 Crisium wrote: Every Terran was a "Proleague Terran" except Fantasy and Flash in late BW. After ForGG's legendary championship run in July 2008, they were the only Terrans to make a final, let alone win. Heck, only 2 other Terrans even made a Ro4 after that tournament, Iris and Light, the latter of which is considered a Proleague Terran despite officially having the 3rd deepest individual run of any Terran from late 2009 to 2012. Despite Protoss having a hard time winning championships, they had a lot of variety in the Ro4 and even finals in the final few years of BW. I don't have to remind anyone of the plethora of, respectively, not top-level zergs making Ro4s (type-b, Modesty). Terran had the God and Crown Prince represent their race well, but that's it for individual leagues. Luckily we had Leta and Sea and other great Proleague Terrans to entertain us in SPL, as well as Mind and ForGG who I always liked watching but never touched a Ro4 again after 2008. Good points, and I'll just add a couple of thoughts of my own. The terminology of "ProLeague-only players" were mostly used after the ProLegue got a huge inflation in the number of games played in 2007, and then another two-fold in increase for the 2008/2009 season. 2003: 208 games 2004: 249 games 2005: 369 games 2006: 389 gmaes 2007: 857 games (First massive inflation in the number of games) (First half of) 2008: 416 games 2008/2009: 1568 games (Second massive inflation in the number of games) 2009/2010: 1567 games 2010/2011: 1665 games What this meant was that after 2007, the importance of ProLeague increased dramatically, and ended the era of individual league centric scene. Player were now able to get massive amounts experience in televised games without going through the dreaded offline qualifiers. This gave birth to a whole new generation of players who were able to make a name for themselves without having to do that great in the individual leagues. However, although the modern era had two separate platforms for players to compete in, the nature of the platforms were vastly different. The map pools were different, teams had varying incentives for performing well in the ProLeague (for example, the level of incentives for playing well in the ProLeague for a team such as SK Telecom T1, and MBC Game HERO was night and day), the level of specific preparation, and the distribution of the races were different. For example, in the modern era (Season 2007 onwards), zergs were the most successful race in the higher stages of the brackets (round of four and above). The terran race was the most sucessful in the lower bracket stages, but only had eight players who managed to reach the round of four or above, which is, like you said, a number that's lower than either zerg (18) or protoss (9). However, in a reversal of fortune, zergs were having hardest time performing well in the ProLeague compared to either terran or protoss. Terran players had the most number of victories overall, as well as having the highest number of top performers. Protoss had good representation at the top also, even if they were slightly outnumbered by the other two races if we look at the overall picture, not just the top. The zerg never had a top four performer in the ProLeague apart from Jaedong since 2007, which is lower than the six protoss players who managed to be a top four ProLeague player, or the five terran players who managed to be a top four ProLeague performer. So in summary, in the 25 individual leagues that happened in the modern era, the top four spots were occupied by 35 players. T: 32% Z: 51.43% P: 36% In 7 ProLeague seasons of varying lengths (not going to count the hybrid league), the top four spots (in terms of number of victories) were occupied by 12 players. T: 41.67% Z: 8.33% P: 50% Due to the huge disparity in the success of the races in the two separate platforms of competition, it's no wonder that we had a bunch of "ProLeague-only" terran players such as Sea, Leta, HiyA, and Really. In the same vein, it's little mystery that there were a bunch of zerg players that enjoyed modest success in the individual leagues, yet never made much an impression in the ProLeague. Of the 35 individual league beasts, and 12 ProLeague beasts, only three terran players (Flash, FanTaSy, and Light), one zerg player, and six protoss players (the members of the Six Dragons, minus Kal, and Pure in his place) overlap. So there's only ten players who were able to get at least decent success across all platforms, and why it's such a pain to rate players such as Mind, ForGG, or Leta. You have to come up with a system to weigh the results across all platforms, but it's impossible because the increased level of importance of the ProLeague was not a universal standard for all teams. Tales from retired professional players such as Sea, and Leta portray a very grim reality of some of the teams (teams actively telling players not to do too well in ProLeagues because they don't have the funds to give them higher salaries if they actually do well, the coaches giving up and just letting the players do whatever they want with the builds and the entry). However, it is also true that the majority of the salaries were based on the performance in the ProLeague for a lot of the teams, which made some players try really hard in the ProLeague (perhaps even more so than in the individual leagues). Plus you have to consider that individual leagues had more prestige to the viewers because of the historical context from the past. People have all sorts of ideas about how much individual league performance matters compared to ProLeague performance, but it depends on the era, personal preference, and the teams the players played for. As for Leta. I think he is a product of incredible perserverance, dedication, and passion for the game for a player that was not particularly talented at the game, and wasn't given the best of circumstances to succeed. He played for OGN Sparkyz, a team purely made in a half-assed attempt by Ongamenet to have a voice within KeSPA, the team never had the proper funding, nor the direction to succeed as a team. Any success they had, especially before the merge with CJ Entus, was the result of the players having the desire to succeed despite the higher ups in the team having zero drive to lead their players. The team was full of rotten players such as Justin, who were not only fixing matches, but giving out replays to members of other teams, so that Leta's build could be countered in advance (streamers on Afreeca said that Leta's victory against Hwasin was one of those games). The entire team was smashed into pieces by the match fixing scandal, and it was up to him to keep this sinking ship alive in a roster that basically had zero support for him until the merge with CJ Entus happened. This is a guy who should be praised for the great things he achieved, not ridiculed for the lack of success he had compared to his hype when he really was looking to be on the road to greatness. It pisses me off when people try to join in on the slander against Leta because of some retarded comment made by Artosis back when he had a hard on for Really.  | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 22 2016 16:58 Elroi wrote: Hehe you remind me of that guy who always used to disproved people in the power rank thread with walls of text about the history of bw. I cant remember his name now... Letmelose? | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On December 21 2016 18:47 [[Starlight]] wrote: Bo3s in dual-format group stage is crazy... up to 15 games per group, right? And then imagine half of them are long-ass TvTs on top of that. Unworkable. TvT is awsome, actually the best mirror in BW. The problem is many of those matches were played by mediocre players who wouldnt take an initiative even to save their lives. If this occur, reluclance to beeing aggresive can turn a TvT into a slugfest. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 22 2016 19:35 hitthat wrote: TvT is awsome, actually the best mirror in BW. The problem is many of those matches were played by mediocre players who wouldnt take an initiative even to save their lives. If this occur, reluclance to beeing aggresive can turn a TvT into a slugfest. I like TvT too. It just takes a long time, a lot of the time. | ||
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 22 2016 19:35 hitthat wrote: TvT is awsome, actually the best mirror in BW. The problem is many of those matches were played by mediocre players who wouldnt take an initiative even to save their lives. If this occur, reluclance to beeing aggresive can turn a TvT into a slugfest. second best mirror thank you very much | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
ZvZ is #1? | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
TvZ best mirror. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
Is RvR a mirror? | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
Good point. I don't really like it though. Too unpredictable. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Inigo Montoya: "I do not think that word means what you think it means." | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
ZvZ = poker/Las Vegas TvT = Nascar/golf/chess PvP = Idk a good analogy for this one | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Goon-reaver festival. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
I agree with TvT being like chess. | ||
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On December 23 2016 14:07 FlaShFTW wrote: ZvZ = poker/Las Vegas TvT = Nascar/golf/chess PvP = Idk a good analogy for this one PvP is just two people hurling imbalanced units (high templar and reaver) at each other's defenseless probes, so I'd say it's kinda like bowling. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 23 2016 16:25 Kau wrote: PvP is just two people hurling imbalanced units (high templar and reaver) at each other's defenseless probes, so I'd say it's kinda like bowling. HAHAAHAAHAHAHA that one gave me a good laugh. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 23 2016 16:45 FlaShFTW wrote: HAHAAHAAHAHAHA that one gave me a good laugh. Yep, that was a good one. xD | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Protoss versus protoss: Jousting. In this slug fest between two brawlers, they need to build up a some momentum to end. Terran versus terran: Sniper duels. Two pussies trying to get a positional advantage and try to camp the living hell out of each other. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19240 Posts
On December 23 2016 16:25 Kau wrote: PvP is just two people hurling imbalanced units (high templar and reaver) at each other's defenseless probes, so I'd say it's kinda like bowling. Wow, i read Flashftw's post before falling asleep and thought bowling would be the perfect answer. So this is a well timed post and Im glad i wasnt alone in thinking that. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 23 2016 18:39 Letmelose wrote: Zerg versus zerg: Knife fight. Up close and personal, one slip up will end in a lethal blow. Protoss versus protoss: Jousting. In this slug fest between two brawlers, they need to build up a some momentum to end. Terran versus terran: Sniper duels. Two pussies trying to get a positional advantage and try to camp the living hell out of each other. This is pretty damn good. I think i like this one the best besides the damn bowling comment. We need a damn thread for this haha | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
Now about the games, after watching the sloppy jaedong vs best i get the feeling jaedong is not yet ready for the competition in BW, his army control was just terrible. After it, i just see Jaedong becomes the most lucky player ive seen, getting 2 free wins in a row. Mind vs Best - All Best need is goons to win vs mind :D To be more serious mind throw this game by underestimating opponent as he did numerous times to weaker opponents. Glad for best and Jaedong to advance, but they are definitely the weakest players in this group. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10160 Posts
On December 24 2016 01:34 _Animus_ wrote: LOL commentators with top profanity quotes - "goliaths are good for clearing mines" "they are good against vultures and tanks" little did they know player build them for anti air purpose against wraiths... Now about the games, after watching the sloppy jaedong vs best i get the feeling jaedong is not yet ready for the competition in BW, his army control was just terrible. After it, i just see Jaedong becomes the most lucky player ive seen, getting 2 free wins in a row. Mind vs Best - All Best need is goons to win vs mind :D To be more serious mind throw this game by underestimating opponent as he did numerous times to weaker opponents. Glad for best and Jaedong to advance, but they are definitely the weakest players in this group. Best has one of the strongest PvTs.... a ton of people expected him to advance idk what youre talking about | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
If you take away those games as simple luck wins though then you still only have the sample size of 1 game against Best. Not the best showing but it's hard to make a clear judgment based on that. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
My thoughts about JD -- he really didn't look himself against Best, not his old self certainly, nor his current self -- watched him streaming a bit and in my opinion he still looks really good at late game. So I don't know what to make of that. I really enjoyed Mind vs. Sharp. Mind made such great decisions and just seemed to understand what he needed to do so clearly. Loved the early wraiths too. The scouting error was really a tough way to lose vs. Jaedong (and be eliminated!), hope he recovers well. | ||
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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
I'm very interested in these it's just that I can't get afreeca to work. | ||
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ssj114
Afghanistan461 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On December 25 2016 03:29 ssj114 wrote: Nice to see BW coming back? When's the next round? Group C is played tomorrow. Take a look at the right bar, the events are added to the calender. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On December 24 2016 04:01 FlaShFTW wrote: Best has one of the strongest PvTs.... a ton of people expected him to advance idk what youre talking about Have you seen best on the previous tournaments he played? His pvt record isnt that good nor he achieved anything in the tournaments, compare that to Mind and Sharp and you get the picture Also from what u say i dont know if you are aware of how bad mind played in that game. Btw that commentators quotes i used was tastosis ones if its unclear. | ||
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