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The Mind vs Jaedong game still has me smh. 
Would've liked to have heard any interview with Mind afterwards.
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United States13143 Posts
On December 20 2016 23:14 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 22:58 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 22:52 BisuDagger wrote:On December 20 2016 22:01 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 21:48 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:43 Qikz wrote:On December 20 2016 21:36 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:34 Qikz wrote:On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:22 GTR wrote:
[quote]
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift) Harsh. Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys? Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy. Did not say he was. Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says. Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person! Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments. Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition. The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around. I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential. Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round. I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time.
Leta was awful until, like, Spring 2008. About halfway through that proleague seasons something clicked with him and he started winning a lot in Proleague.
Why are we talking about Leta exactly, he was one of my favorite players but he isn't even in this tournament
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On December 21 2016 00:52 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 21 2016 00:24 Chris_Havoc wrote:
Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it.
One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments. Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no? The problem is this: Mind scouted the top left. He didn't see a hatch at the nat so he went up the ramp. He went a little bit further to spot the creep and turn around. I think he actually turned around too quickly and didn't see the creep. That's why he thought Jaedong must be in the top right corner, where he sent his marines to. This is not the first time somebody outsmarted himself by trying to only peak for the creep but turning around to early. Now the real weird thing is that he pushed out at all. If he sees that drone and concludes Jaedong must be in the right corner then it's sure as hell that there is some kind of early pool, might even be 4/5 pool. In every fucking case the terran with an 8 rax should stay defensive and build a bunker because otherwise he is not going to survive.
Yeah i got that far in my thoughts as well, he basically didn't account for the drone no matter what? If it is already there he either has to be top left or some cheese is going on i guess?!
I checked the pov stream and yeah he didn't see a natural and didn't see creep so i get that part, still the drone is the mysterious factor here i think ^^
Well sometimes the pressure is too high and you make silly mistakes, that's how starcraft goes.
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On December 20 2016 23:46 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 23:25 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 23:14 BisuDagger wrote:On December 20 2016 22:58 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 22:52 BisuDagger wrote:On December 20 2016 22:01 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 21:48 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:43 Qikz wrote:On December 20 2016 21:36 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:34 Qikz wrote:
[quote]
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was. Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says. Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person! Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments. Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition. The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around. I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential. Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round. I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time. Since we're on the topic, let's get into it. 1) Top three overall post-2007 (since Flash made his debut, the ProLeague switched to a 5 day schedule) 2) Top three for each season (Season 2007, 2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, and post 2011 excluding the hydrid era) Man, that's so much data to go over lol. Can't we discuss protoss, that's so much more fun and easier to debate TT. Without reading back I can't answer all that right now. I'll try and answer this after work though because it is cool to read back on. :D
Sure thing. There was a time when Leta was a prime candidate second best terran in my opinion. The hype behind him was understandable even if he never fulfilled it.
This is Leta's career in the ProLeague
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 1-4 (34th best terran)
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 2-3 (21st best terran)
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague: 14-6 (2nd best terran)
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 49-21 (2nd best terran)
Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague: 43-26 (3rd best terran)
Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: 27-22 (7th best terran)
SK Planet ProLeague: 12-6 (3rd best terran)
So Leta's best season would be his 2008/2009 effort.
Within this period, we had a year and half's worth of ProLeague. and six individual leagues happening. This is Leta's performance in those.
Incruit OGN StarLeague: Failed at the offline qualifiers
Clubday MSL: Round of 32
Lost Saga MSL: Round of 8
Batoo OGN StarLeague: Round of 16
Bacchus 2009 StarLeague: Round of 8
Avalon MSL: Round of 32
So Leta's absolute peak for OGN StarLeague/MSL/ProLeague performance would be early 2009. At this particular point of his career, this is Leta's credentials.
OGN StarLeague: Round of 16, only FanTaSy and Hwasin advance further as terran players
MSL: Round of 8, and Leta is the terran that got furthest in the league alongside ForGG, and NaDa
ProLeague: 4th most number of victories, and the second overall best terran behind Flash
There are four terran players who are both in the round of 16 in both the OGN StarLeague and MSL at this point in time. Flash, Leta, and Hwasin. Hwasin has a poor ProLeague showing with a 18-22 record, and drops out earlier than Leta in the MSL. FanTaSy is a good candidate as the second best terran alongside Leta, but he has a record of 29-21 in the ProLeague, which is respectable, but there are 17 players above him, and Leta is 4th in the rankings only behind Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu. He also drops out of the MSL in the round of 32.
So in early 2009, we have FanTaSy who is the best performing terran in the OGN StarLeague by far, but has seven terran players progressing further than him in the MSL, and five terran players out performing him in the ProLeague.
Leta at this point is the joint-best performing terran in the MSL as wellas defeating Flash 2-1 on the way, and only going out 2-3 to the eventual champion. He loses out to FanTaSy after a tie-breaker for the spot in the round of eight, but puts up a reasonable performance in the group stages before bowing out. He also is the second best terran, and the fourth best player overall in the year long season of the ProLeague.
At this moment, you have Leta, who has been second best performing terran in the ProLeague by a considerable distance for over a year. He also starts breaking into the bracket stages for both the individual leagues, and shows that he can defeat top level players such as Flash in a series. Without the hindsight of knowing that this would be the absolute peak of his trajectory, I think the hype for him was understandable. After qualifying for the individual leagues for the first time in his career in 2008, he was steadily progressing deeper and deeper into the tournament bracket stages, as well as sustaining a level of excellence in the ProLeague that was not matched by any other terran apart from Flash.
I fully understand that looking back now that he wasn't all he was hyped up to be, and FanTaSy filled that void instead, but for a brief moment in time, it was not ludicrous to suggest that Leta would become the second best terran after Flash should the trajectory he took from 2007 to 2008, 2008 to 2009 continue. He turned from a nobody that made his television debut in 2007, into a beast in the ProLeague within a year, then a year after that, added minor individual success as well as increasing his ProLeague might over time. Hindsight is 20/20, but back then, I believe that he was a perfectly fine candidate for the title of the second best terran given his rate of improvement, work ethic, and the trajectory of his career.
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On December 21 2016 01:05 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 23:14 BisuDagger wrote:On December 20 2016 22:58 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 22:52 BisuDagger wrote:On December 20 2016 22:01 Letmelose wrote:On December 20 2016 21:48 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:43 Qikz wrote:On December 20 2016 21:36 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 20 2016 21:34 Qikz wrote:On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:
[quote]
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy. Did not say he was. Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says. Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person! Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments. Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW. No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams. (sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol). I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition. The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around. I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential. Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round. I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time. Leta was awful until, like, Spring 2008. About halfway through that proleague seasons something clicked with him and he started winning a lot in Proleague. Why are we talking about Leta exactly, he was one of my favorite players but he isn't even in this tournament
leta is a beautiful person both visually and in game
nothing wrong with talking about him :3 also hiya GOAT terran
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Wow that JD game vs Sharp. It was like JD read Sharp's mind completely. Speedling opening vs proxy rax, I don't think you can more of a BO win than that.
edit: ok maybe not JD said in his interview that at the start of the game while splitting his drones, he decided to do it on impulse.
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Leta was one of my favorite terran players overall, second only to Fantasy and tieing with FBH (but TBH I have a soft spot for any good and unconventional terran player) and I remember his excelent action pack matches against many players. But I alsocompletely lost my faith in his ability to win any tournament atound 2010.
He was complitely opposite to what the Calm was - good in PL, bad in individual tournaments. From a hindsigh, I think he was pretty far from beeing S-class player, but his consistent wraith victories against Zergs convinced me that those units are fine alternative to more conservative terran play.
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On December 20 2016 23:20 lovel0ve1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 21:29 4Servy wrote:On December 20 2016 21:17 thezanursic wrote:On December 20 2016 21:15 c3rberUs wrote:On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote:
What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases. Up until recently, Zergs did stomp all over every Protoss not named Bisu (actually, Bisu himself fell to a personal low winrate one time.) Idk what happened in the gap though. 1. This set of maps might just be more Protoss favored. 2. Might be giant fluke, it is just 10 or so games, if we had a proleague season with over 50 PvZs, maybe we could get more accurate stats. I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert. It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now. I had the exact same thoughts lately. I watched Ro 24 A,C,D and today all in the afreeca television studio. The P vs Z I saw there made me ask myself "How does Zerg fight against the Protoss ball? How does it work again?". The single Hydra timing win from soulkey was the exception. Actually, I thought that Jaedong would win vs Best today, because he certainly practiced the situation when protoss has the ball and walks around in the center and sometimes attacks expansions... Brood War is a tough and merciless game.
JD did a really unconventional build. Zerg can straight up beat the protoss army in mid game when mutas pop and snipe the high templar, and again after getting 4 gas and pumping ultras. I'm not sure why JD didn't build mutas or ultras when Best had no reavers and almost no corsairs.
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United States10203 Posts
Thank god jaedong advanced.
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On December 21 2016 02:03 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 23:20 lovel0ve1 wrote:On December 20 2016 21:29 4Servy wrote:On December 20 2016 21:17 thezanursic wrote:On December 20 2016 21:15 c3rberUs wrote:On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote:
What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases. Up until recently, Zergs did stomp all over every Protoss not named Bisu (actually, Bisu himself fell to a personal low winrate one time.) Idk what happened in the gap though. 1. This set of maps might just be more Protoss favored. 2. Might be giant fluke, it is just 10 or so games, if we had a proleague season with over 50 PvZs, maybe we could get more accurate stats. I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert. It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now. I had the exact same thoughts lately. I watched Ro 24 A,C,D and today all in the afreeca television studio. The P vs Z I saw there made me ask myself "How does Zerg fight against the Protoss ball? How does it work again?". The single Hydra timing win from soulkey was the exception. Actually, I thought that Jaedong would win vs Best today, because he certainly practiced the situation when protoss has the ball and walks around in the center and sometimes attacks expansions... Brood War is a tough and merciless game. JD did a really unconventional build. Zerg can straight up beat the protoss army in mid game when mutas pop and snipe the high templar, and again after getting 4 gas and pumping ultras. I'm not sure why JD didn't build mutas or ultras when Best had no reavers and almost no corsairs.
I could be wrong but his control with a big army seemed a bit sloppy? Losing Hydras and Lurkers all over the place for free, and to (amazing) Storms as well. That can't have been good for his game.
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On December 20 2016 21:33 classicyellow83 wrote:
For fuck sakes. People shitting on JD on YGOSU for going zergling all in. -_-;;;;;
lol. is 9pool zvt considered an all-in there?
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On December 21 2016 01:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 00:52 Miragee wrote:On December 21 2016 00:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 21 2016 00:24 Chris_Havoc wrote:
Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it.
One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments. Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no? The problem is this: Mind scouted the top left. He didn't see a hatch at the nat so he went up the ramp. He went a little bit further to spot the creep and turn around. I think he actually turned around too quickly and didn't see the creep. That's why he thought Jaedong must be in the top right corner, where he sent his marines to. This is not the first time somebody outsmarted himself by trying to only peak for the creep but turning around to early. Now the real weird thing is that he pushed out at all. If he sees that drone and concludes Jaedong must be in the right corner then it's sure as hell that there is some kind of early pool, might even be 4/5 pool. In every fucking case the terran with an 8 rax should stay defensive and build a bunker because otherwise he is not going to survive. I checked the pov stream and yeah he didn't see a natural and didn't see creep so i get that part, still the drone is the mysterious factor here i think ^^
Can you tell the link where you watched that?
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They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?!
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On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote:
They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?!
Haha, the moment I read this post I knew it could only be a mapmaker who wrote that.
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On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote:
They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?!
it's bc the old one had mining problems compared to other starting locations
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Not the best games, but they were exciting in their own right. I'm just happy JD got through. Sadly his protoss seems fairly weak, and there are going to be a lot of protoss from here on out. I believe in the Dong though. He will pull through. Either way im fucking pumped for more ASL. I forgot how much more fun it is to watch BW than sc2.
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On December 21 2016 02:58 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2016 21:33 classicyellow83 wrote:
For fuck sakes. People shitting on JD on YGOSU for going zergling all in. -_-;;;;; lol. is 9pool zvt considered an all-in there?
Back in the day it was considered all-in'ish or at least cheesy because you had to surprise the terran with it. I mean, there were some really impressive 9 pool/overpool builds in ZvT that were planned for a macro game (for example Zero vs Flash on Match Point). But it's a rarity I would say.
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On December 21 2016 03:40 classicyellow83 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote:
They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?! it's bc the old one had mining problems compared to other starting locations
There was no mining problem. If anything a splitting problem. I don't really like the solution though...
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Its so great to be back watching BW again. And watching JD again. brings a tear in my eye.
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On December 21 2016 04:01 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 03:40 classicyellow83 wrote:On December 21 2016 03:31 Freakling wrote:
They did some really weird overnight changes to Demian over night... Minerals in the top left main look really horrible now ;\ Why?! it's bc the old one had mining problems compared to other starting locations There was no mining problem. If anything a splitting problem. I don't really like the solution though...
Players were complaining so.....
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EPT
