On December 20 2016 21:06 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: That's so poor for multiple reasons - he saw the drone attack him from the very top. Nobody sends a drone out that early that's gone horizontally left and then goes vertically downward. Unless it was super cheesy, in which case you'd bring the marines back early before.
How fucking hilarious.
Exactly to a pro this should never happen.
It's not the first time something like this happened. Luxury 5pools Leta in the following vod and the scv clearly sees the lings but Leta's reaction was as if he didnt notice the lings in the first place ie no wall and building rax in location where lings can kill rines on spawn. He also decided to make factory instead of bunker too.
Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before.
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift)
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
Here's the problem with doing Bo3's in a group stage:
If you have a group with say, 3 Terrans in it, you could end up with the group easily taking 6-8 hours. Couple that with starting time (19:00 KST) and the group wouldn't end before 1am...on a work day!
I even suspect the ASL went to knockout groups to avoid the tiebreaker rule and the possibility of endless matches.
It's not the first time something like this happened. Luxury 5pools Leta in the following vod and the scv clearly sees the lings but Leta's reaction was as if he didnt notice the lings in the first place ie no wall and building rax in location where lings can kill rines on spawn. He also decided to make factory instead of bunker too.
Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before.
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift)
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential.
On December 20 2016 21:16 Harem wrote: [quote] It's not the first time something like this happened. Luxury 5pools Leta in the following vod and the scv clearly sees the lings but Leta's reaction was as if he didnt notice the lings in the first place ie no wall and building rax in location where lings can kill rines on spawn. He also decided to make factory instead of bunker too.
Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before.
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift)
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential.
Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round.
I actually enjoyed the last two games. Good players have to mix in different strategies. Zerg can't just go 12 hatch every game because his opponents would exploit him. Terran can't go racks first every game because then the Zerg would exploit him, etc. They have to have a game theory optimal mix of opening build orders. People should understand this and not be so quick to bemoan BO losses. It's an intrinsic part of any game with imperfect information
On December 20 2016 21:19 anandworld wrote: [quote]
Funnily enough, Leta was one of those guys who could never get past the best players. He's choked away numerous games against Flash and I don't think he's ever beaten Jaedong before.
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift)
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential.
Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round.
I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time.
On December 20 2016 21:13 4Servy wrote: What happened to pvz though?, back in the day zergs stomped all over protoss not being Bisu. However in this and the last ASL season, PvZ seems the most ''imbalanced'' match up. Zerg dont seem to be able to contest the protoss ball anymore and end up being equal in bases.
Up until recently, Zergs did stomp all over every Protoss not named Bisu (actually, Bisu himself fell to a personal low winrate one time.) Idk what happened in the gap though.
1. This set of maps might just be more Protoss favored.
2. Might be giant fluke, it is just 10 or so games, if we had a proleague season with over 50 PvZs, maybe we could get more accurate stats.
I agree with this, in the fact the sample size is to small. But in the way the pvz matches look this ASL the returning patern seems to be that zerg cannot contest the protoss ball anymore and falls behind on macro. We saw this even on older maps like circuit breaker which is around for long. Maybe protoss army movement has been so crisp that zerg can no longer abuse crackling snipes in the late game, I dont know im by no means a pvz expert.
It could indeed by a fluke but I dont belive in flukes for all pvz games in the most important tournament SC BW has right now.
I had the exact same thoughts lately. I watched Ro 24 A,C,D and today all in the afreeca television studio. The P vs Z I saw there made me ask myself "How does Zerg fight against the Protoss ball? How does it work again?". The single Hydra timing win from soulkey was the exception. Actually, I thought that Jaedong would win vs Best today, because he certainly practiced the situation when protoss has the ball and walks around in the center and sometimes attacks expansions... Brood War is a tough and merciless game.
On December 20 2016 23:13 lazz wrote: I actually enjoyed the last two games. Good players have to mix in different strategies. Zerg can't just go 12 hatch every game because his opponents would exploit him. Terran can't go racks first every game because then the Zerg would exploit him, etc. They have to have a game theory optimal mix of opening build orders. People should understand this and not be so quick to bemoan BO losses. It's an intrinsic part of any game with imperfect information
Yeah, it's like how zergs have actually been making lurker openings work lately just because terrans were being too predictable with +1 openings.
in the words of artosis: "leta was the most fucking overrated player in the world and people should feel terrible for hyping him up so much"
(not verbatim but yeah you get my drift)
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential.
Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round.
I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time.
Since we're on the topic, let's get into it.
1) Top three overall post-2007 (since Flash made his debut, the ProLeague switched to a 5 day schedule) 2) Top three for each season (Season 2007, 2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, and post 2011 excluding the hydrid era)
Couldn't catch the games live but got to watch them without getting spoilered. The last game was sooo unlucky for Mind It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) The first 2 games were good. Afterwards not so much. But who cares if BeSt and Jaedong advance
Edit: Also I thought that Tasteless was the best caster so far on the ENG studio cast. He has the passion and it's obvious he has kept up more than the other two( which is no criticism for Rapid)
On December 20 2016 21:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: [quote]
Harsh.
Isn't Leta just another one of those guys, like FBH and Sea, who was better in ProLeague than in individual tourneys?
Leta was great and I loved watching him, but he was no where near as good as FanTaSy.
Did not say he was.
Was just pointing out that there are some guys who are ProLeague guys, and that doesn't mean they suck, regardless of what Artosis says.
Sorry, I think I quoted the wrong person!
Yeah, Artosis is just a dick in that regard. The people who did well in Proleague are just as deserving of praise as people who do well in individual tournaments.
Yep, I kinda think of the really good ProLeague guys as the unsung heroes of BW.
No individual glory, but like good offensive linemen in football, they get a lot done for their teams.
(sorry, I know you Brits don't consider American football to be football, lol).
I wouldn't worry that much. ProLeague records were vital in conract agreements for the salaries, and Leta, being one of the best performing players around, was well rewarded for his efforts for the team. Considering how fucked up OGN Sparkyz was in terms of management, and I think Leta deserves a lot of credit in terms of having the discipline to practice his ass off, and having good growth in skill in such a shitty environment. Who cares if he failed a lot in individual leagues? So did basically every single terran out there apart from Flash, and FanTaSy. They were the only terrans to reach the finals of an individual league multiple times, and there wasn't a single terran apart from those two who was capable of beasting it across all platforms of competition.
The condescending comments towards Leta triggers me so much. I mean Artosis actually argued that Really (a player who couldn't win games versus zerg to save his life) was a better overall player when Leta was looking like the next big thing for the terran race to accompany Flash (which he obviously failed). That's stupid, and biased hype towards the player. That's the kind of hype that should be laughed at, not the kind of hype Leta received for being a prime candidate for the title of the second best terran around.
I always speak highly of Leta. However, I wouldn't call him prime for second best. He had his ups and down. He struck me more of a player like Hiya who was really strong, but didn't always play to his potential.
Give me the name of the player who was the second best terran player before FanTaSy came round.
I think that all depends on the year/half year that you are referring to. Leta overall isn't even top 3 when you take results from 2006-2011.That rank has fluctuated constantly since 2006 (when Leta started playing). Give me a specific time frame and I'll tell you my opinion of the second best at that time.
Since we're on the topic, let's get into it.
1) Top three overall post-2007 (since Flash made his debut, the ProLeague switched to a 5 day schedule) 2) Top three for each season (Season 2007, 2008, 2008/2009, 2009/2010, 2010/2011, and post 2011 excluding the hydrid era)
Man, that's so much data to go over lol. Can't we discuss protoss, that's so much more fun and easier to debate TT. Without reading back I can't answer all that right now. I'll try and answer this after work though because it is cool to read back on. :D
On December 20 2016 23:40 TheNewEra wrote: Couldn't catch the games live but got to watch them without getting spoilered. The last game was sooo unlucky for Mind It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) The first 2 games were good. Afterwards not so much. But who cares if BeSt and Jaedong advance
Edit: Also I thought that Tasteless was the best caster so far on the ENG studio cast. He has the passion and it's obvious he has kept up more than the other two( which is no criticism for Rapid)
I agree that Tasteless makes a BIG difference.
Tasteless on play-by-play and Artosis on color commentary is the best tandem. I like Rapid, but I would like him to tone down the comedic byplay some and be a bit more serious. Some humor is OK, too much can be goofy.
JD's games weren't the games i would have liked to see, but hey he is in the ro8 so that's good^^
edit: Also how did that last game work exactly? He saw the drone going down, saw no hatch at the natural and didn't go far enough to see the creep. Weird game
Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it.
On December 21 2016 00:24 Chris_Havoc wrote: Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it.
One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments.
Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no?
On December 20 2016 23:40 TheNewEra wrote: Couldn't catch the games live but got to watch them without getting spoilered. The last game was sooo unlucky for Mind It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) The first 2 games were good. Afterwards not so much. But who cares if BeSt and Jaedong advance
Edit: Also I thought that Tasteless was the best caster so far on the ENG studio cast. He has the passion and it's obvious he has kept up more than the other two( which is no criticism for Rapid)
I agree that Tasteless makes a BIG difference.
Tasteless on play-by-play and Artosis on color commentary is the best tandem. I like Rapid, but I would like him to tone down the comedic byplay some and be a bit more serious. Some humor is OK, too much can be goofy.
TBF Rapid is the only one who was never THAT involved in BW and was mostly a fan. That's why I'm fine with the way he casted though I'm happy that Tastosis seem to work better in BW
On December 21 2016 00:24 Chris_Havoc wrote: Basically Mind had a brainfart and completely missed Jaedong's movements. By 3 minutes in Mind realized his mistake but it was too late and Mind knew it. JD's pushed the lings down Mind's throat and that was it.
One of those classic "OH SHIT!!" moments.
Was there a possible scenario where JD isn't top left after seeing the drone is basically what it comes down to, no?
The problem is this: Mind scouted the top left. He didn't see a hatch at the nat so he went up the ramp. He went a little bit further to spot the creep and turn around. I think he actually turned around too quickly and didn't see the creep. That's why he thought Jaedong must be in the top right corner, where he sent his marines to. This is not the first time somebody outsmarted himself by trying to only peak for the creep but turning around to early. Now the real weird thing is that he pushed out at all. If he sees that drone and concludes Jaedong must be in the right corner then it's sure as hell that there is some kind of early pool, might even be 4/5 pool. In every fucking case the terran with an 8 rax should stay defensive and build a bunker because otherwise he is not going to survive.
On December 20 2016 23:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Larva just tried to pull JD and went 9 pool against Flash and got smacked.
Haha! Even if FlaSh goes 14CC don't try to pull 9pool against God.
Today's games: Sharp just needed to block his ramp with scvs, really really bad micro. But Mind, WTF?! Why you didn't scout till end? Knowing when to turn back when not seeing creep should be automated after nine million games he played... he turned his scouting scv back way too early. Glad to see JD and 1st zerg to advance ro8.
EPT
It reminded me a bit of Boxer vs Sheis ( even though Boxer managed to trick Sheis on purpose) 
