EPTRace: protos ter
max iCCup Rank: c-
Country:ukrainen
Amateur TeamLeague - Page 4
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romarior1
3 Posts
Race: protos ter max iCCup Rank: c- Country:ukrainen | ||
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iCCup.JiN
Russian Federation51 Posts
Name: iCCup.JiN Race: random max iCCup Rank: C Country:RUSSIA Name: romarior Race: terran max iCCup Rank: C- Country:UKRAINE Name: PuBepoH Race: terran max iCCup Rank: D+ Country:RUSSIA Name: Fols[raGe] Race: protoss max iCCup Rank: C+ Country:RUSSIA later add more  | ||
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DannyBOyz
11 Posts
Race: Terran Max iCCup Rank: C+ this season Country: USA Please put me on the list. I am registering as an individual. Thank you | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On October 17 2015 05:24 art_of_turtle wrote: sorry forgot to mention im just captain Although I would like to make a case for Artanis since he hasnt played in a bit and artanis also kinda sucks, apparently he got trashed by our captain I dont see why a team of d, d+ players should want to play in this. my current record in iccup is somethig like 0-5 so it's ok, Rocko hasn't played in a long time either. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
Suggestion I'd like to pitch again an idea* that was introduced by L_master for the most recent low-level teamleague, which in my opinion significantly improved the experience for all players involved: Reserving slots in every team match for players of a specific rank. The goal is to avoid pitting players of vastly different skill levels against each other. For the purpose of giving examples I will be using the old Iccup ranking system, since I am not aware how the current situation is. The initial idea was for a bo5 team match to have: 2 slots for C- 3 slots for D+ and below For the actual league the system was changed to: 4 slots for C-/C 2 slots for D+ 1 slot for D/D- The number of slots for each rank was changed due to actual number of people from different ranks that had signed up. For the upcoming league the numbers can (should) be changed again. The number of tiers can be increased if needed to provide even more equal matches. Reasoning As Cele already said even somebody who hovers around D has no chance whatsoever against somebody who is solid D+ in the old iccup system. In former teamleagues it got to the point where legit D- people were pitted against C- people. DRTL 5 started off with a lot of participants and enjoyed a great organization throughout. However, in its bo7 matches with players ranging from real D- up to people scraping at C there were a ton of absolutely one-sided matches. This led to weaker players getting increasingly frustrated by being crushed over and over again (and some of them dropping out of the league). At the same time several of the stronger players retired after round 1 because they did not want to participate in the humiliation of beginners. Both of those events did not make the league more even, though. The skill discrepancy was still huge and lopsided matches were still the rule rather than the exception. If anything the only result was that some teams were significantly weakened for the playoffs, which was punishing to their mid-range players, some of whom had invested a lot of time and effort into the league, but ended up having no chance to win the league. If you take a look at the player rankings after round 1 you will see that a lot of players had absurdly good records mostly due to "enjoying" absurdly uneven matchings: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/D_Ranks_Teamleague/Season_5#Player_Rankings If you take a look at the tiered D/C- minileague and compare the pairings with the ones from DRTL 5, you will see that D- seeded players had to play against C- players on a regular basis in DRTL 5: (The players in the D/C- minileague between week 1 and 4 are listed in the order 4x C/C- => 2x D+ => 1x D/D-) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/D_Ranks_Teamleague/D_-_C-_MiniLeague#Week_1 Comparing both leagues, an even more important thing to see is that players who absolutely dominated round 1 (and in some cases r2) in DRTL 5 were receiving losses in the tiered D/C- minileague. Conclusion Despite the very small game size in the D/C- minileague, there is some evidence that organizing a teamleague with tiered matchups creates a more equal playing field. I'd say even common sense suggests that pairing players based on their perceived skill would make the games more even than completely random pairings ever would. The fact of the matter is that previous teamleagues have had the problem of extremely unfair matches. A system that strives to avoid lopsided games should certainly be implemented. Aside from the idea described above (afaik) the only other idea is to have strict max rank restrictions imposed. Here is my opinion why reserving spots based on ranks is vastly superior to just imposing strict max rank restrictions + Show Spoiler + all examples use the old Iccup ranking system 1. The difference between a real D and a solid D+ player is already huge. The difference between a D- and a D+ is colossal. Reserved spots allows to avoid such matches. 2. Experience has shown that in every league/tournament there are always at least a few people who are either unknown to the community and happen to perform much better than expected or simply improve a ton during the league. A league based only on max rank restrictions would need to kick such players mid-season or risk having then stomp on beginners regularly. A reserved spots league can force them to play against people who are not a freewin. 3. I cannot predict how many people will sign up for this league but the experience from the last few low-level events on TL suggests that it will not be many: + Show Spoiler + DRIT 7 - D-ranks exclusive, only 16 players DRIT 8 - D-ranks exclusive, only 16 players, 5 players were no-shows DRTL 6 - D-ranks exclusive, bo5 matches, only 4 teams, at least 11/90 (12.2%) walkovers D/C- minileague - D up to former C, bo7 matches, only 4 teams => The community is already quite small. Accommodating as many players as possible is preferable in my opinion. *Credit goes to Minsc_andboo who suggested this idea first | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On October 18 2015 01:35 ggrrg wrote: It is nice to see another low-level bw tournament after almost an year without one. Thanks for taking on the burden of organizing one! Suggestion I'd like to pitch again an idea* that was introduced by L_master for the most recent low-level teamleague, which in my opinion significantly improved the experience for all players involved: Reserving slots in every team match for players of a specific rank. The goal is to avoid pitting players of vastly different skill levels against each other. For the purpose of giving examples I will be using the old Iccup ranking system, since I am not aware how the current situation is. The initial idea was for a bo5 team match to have: 2 slots for C- 3 slots for D+ and below For the actual league the system was changed to: 4 slots for C-/C 2 slots for D+ 1 slot for D/D- The number of slots for each rank was changed due to actual number of people from different ranks that had signed up. For the upcoming league the numbers can (should) be changed again. The number of tiers can be increased if needed to provide even more equal matches. Reasoning As Cele already said even somebody who hovers around D has no chance whatsoever against somebody who is solid D+ in the old iccup system. In former teamleagues it got to the point where legit D- people were pitted against C- people. DRTL 5 started off with a lot of participants and enjoyed a great organization throughout. However, in its bo7 matches with players ranging from real D- up to people scraping at C there were a ton of absolutely one-sided matches. This led to weaker players getting increasingly frustrated by being crushed over and over again (and some of them dropping out of the league). At the same time several of the stronger players retired after round 1 because they did not want to participate in the humiliation of beginners. Both of those events did not make the league more even, though. The skill discrepancy was still huge and lopsided matches were still the rule rather than the exception. If anything the only result was that some teams were significantly weakened for the playoffs, which was punishing to their mid-range players, some of whom had invested a lot of time and effort into the league, but ended up having no chance to win the league. If you take a look at the player rankings after round 1 you will see that a lot of players had absurdly good records mostly due to "enjoying" absurdly uneven matchings: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/D_Ranks_Teamleague/Season_5#Player_Rankings If you take a look at the tiered D/C- minileague and compare the pairings with the ones from DRTL 5, you will see that D- seeded players had to play against C- players on a regular basis in DRTL 5: (The players in the D/C- minileague between week 1 and 4 are listed in the order 4x C/C- => 2x D+ => 1x D/D-) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/D_Ranks_Teamleague/D_-_C-_MiniLeague#Week_1 Comparing both leagues, an even more important thing to see is that players who absolutely dominated round 1 (and in some cases r2) in DRTL 5 were receiving losses in the tiered D/C- minileague. Conclusion Despite the very small game size in the D/C- minileague, there is some evidence that organizing a teamleague with tiered matchups creates a more equal playing field. I'd say even common sense suggests that pairing players based on their perceived skill would make the games more even than completely random pairings ever would. The fact of the matter is that previous teamleagues have had the problem of extremely unfair matches. A system that strives to avoid lopsided games should certainly be implemented. Aside from the idea described above (afaik) the only other idea is to have strict max rank restrictions imposed. Here is my opinion why reserving spots based on ranks is vastly superior to just imposing strict max rank restrictions + Show Spoiler + all examples use the old Iccup ranking system 1. The difference between a real D and a solid D+ player is already huge. The difference between a D- and a D+ is colossal. Reserved spots allows to avoid such matches. 2. Experience has shown that in every league/tournament there are always at least a few people who are either unknown to the community and happen to perform much better than expected or simply improve a ton during the league. A league based only on max rank restrictions would need to kick such players mid-season or risk having then stomp on beginners regularly. A reserved spots league can force them to play against people who are not a freewin. 3. I cannot predict how many people will sign up for this league but the experience from the last few low-level events on TL suggest that it will not be many: + Show Spoiler + DRIT 7 - D-ranks exclusive, only 16 players DRIT 8 - D-ranks exclusive, only 16 players, 5 players were no-shows DRTL 6 - D-ranks exclusive, bo5 matches, only 4 teams, at least 11/90 (12.2%) walkovers D/C- minileague - D up to former C, bo7 matches, only 4 teams => The community is already quite small. Accommodating as many players as possible is preferable in my opinion. *Credit goes to Minsc_andboo who suggested this idea first That's quite a decent idea. With players who obtained C+ in the old system signing up, it would be a stretch to have the right tiers for everybody - the tiers would be rather inadequate. But still, your suggestion would make sure the experience for low level players would improve drastically as well as for better players, who don't have to face a lot of "freewins". Looking at the tournament as is, i think solid D's and D+'s will shy away from the event rather than giving it a try. It might be motivating to offer them some kind of insurance to have at least decent games. As is, im not going to play in this event, im neither interested in smashing D ranks nor getting smashed by C+ ranks. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1184 Posts
On October 17 2015 17:58 chrisolo wrote: I dont know why AoT didnt fix this, but my Name is chrisolo (ICC: BaD]Seed) and I will be playing Random (if its allowed, but it wasnt stated that it wasnt. In case it isn't allowed, I will be playing Protoss) Edit: Dazed you should join DeSPA again, Mate! Fixed it | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On October 18 2015 01:54 Cele wrote: That's quite a decent idea. With players who obtained C+ in the old system signing up, it would be a stretch to have the right tiers for everybody - the tiers would be rather inadequate. But still, your suggestion would make sure the experience for low level players would improve drastically as well as for better players, who don't have to face a lot of "freewins". Looking at the tournament as is, i think solid D's and D+'s will shy away from the event rather than giving it a try. It might be motivating to offer them some kind of insurance to have at least decent games. As is, im not going to play in this event, im neither interested in smashing D ranks or getting smashed by C+ ranks. A teamleague with tiered player matchings cannot be perfectly fair. Alone the fact that it is impossible to know the current skill level of everybody makes it unrealistic to hope that there will not be any significantly uneven matches. However, it is a huge improvement over a completely random pairings system. Personally, I am certain that a reserved spots system swings the scheduled matches from being mostly unfair (like in DRTL5) to being mostly even (like in the D/C- minileague). Furthermore, it almost completely removes the possibility of one player having literally 0% chance to beat his opponent. Obviously, what I am claiming is biased towards my own perception, but up until the D/C- minileague I was fairly active and believe to have been able to judge the participating players' skill levels quite accurately. Thus, I think it is correct to say that the tiered system benefits the lowest level players the most (old iccup rank: D+ and lower). This is simply due to the fact that it was the easiest to gauge somebody's skill at those levels. In my opinion, unfair matches in the D/C- minileague stemmed from two issues: 1. The highest tier was fairly broad despite it ranging only from C- to former C. There were basically 3 kinds of players: - C- with tons of games and motw bonuses - C- with very little amount of games often meaning that the player could have maybe achieved a higher rank - former C who were almost certainly better than the C- with tons of games This effectively meant that there were 2 skill levels in one tier. However, it was impossible to objectively and accurately draw a line between those players. Still most matches in the D/C- minileague were equal enough to have a decent possibility that either player would win. I would actually say that the outcome of the highest tier matches was more often dependent on the race matchups rather than on the general skill of the players (basically, which player will luck out to draw his personally best mu). Also, I am certain that there was not a single player who was universally favored against all other players. 2. Unknown players entering the league and over-performing: E.g. there was a then unknown player on my team who after playing a few team internal practice matches a week before the league started was obviously D+ as his rank suggested. However, he put in a lot of practice and improved swiftly making both his D+ league matches quite one-sided. A few months later he had improved so much that he managed to reach the finals of DRIT 9. This issue however, can be easily relieved mid-season by bumping such a player into a higher tier. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
Thus i would suggest having 4 tiers even, the ones you mentioned plus a category above: 1 slot for high C / C+ 3 slots for C-/ low C 2 slots for D+ 1 slot for D/D- figuring out if a player belongs to the C/C+ or C-/C tier is a bit of a pain i will admit that. But i think it would be doable if you focus on the players who made C in the old system, it's only a handfull imo and watch a couple of their games with qualified personal who can estimate their skill level. You may think that's to much to ask for, but the AFH newbie Server run by instarcraft.de back in the day did it that way for edge cases and it worked quite well. I also like your idea of bumping up a player into the next tier mid season if he overperforms on his tier. | ||
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iCCup.JiN
Russian Federation51 Posts
Race: random max iCCup Rank: C Country:RUSSIA add in team Sexy gladiators | ||
Falling
Canada11350 Posts
However, I will concur with grgg, that the slots were quite successful in the minileague. Sure if you look specifically at my record in the DRTL 5 (0-11) and the minileague (0-4 and one draw), you can't see the difference. (The minileague was partially a function that I had just barely hit D+, so I was the weakest possible D+ you could be.) But the games felt much better in the minileague- I lost all my games, but I felt like I was within one or two standard deviations of the players I was playing. The skill level was just more consistent and I think that it actually produced better games. Slot designations would need to be adjusted according to what the player base composition, but I think it worked well in the past, and could work again. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
I'd also suggest that teams be composed equally in strength, or at least "free agents" be assigned with the intention to make equal teams, so as close to equal and hence rewarding and interesting match-ups are further facilitated. | ||
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evilEye_
United States91 Posts
Race(define if Race Picker): Protoss Max iCCup Rank: D+ / C- Country: USA | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1184 Posts
On October 18 2015 03:00 Cele wrote: i agree with you quite a bit here. I brang the issue of problematic tiers up as a point to be aware of, but i agree it would be an improvement still. I also concur that the range of player in the "c- to C+" tier (which this tournament would have) would probably be the biggest. It includes players who barely make it to C- via massgaming and motw as well as players who could perhaps reach the blue ranks if they put up enough dedication. Thus i would suggest having 4 tiers even, the ones you mentioned plus a category above: 1 slot for high C / C+ 3 slots for C-/ low C 2 slots for D+ 1 slot for D/D- figuring out if a player belongs to the C/C+ or C-/C tier is a bit of a pain i will admit that. But i think it would be doable if you focus on the players who made C in the old system, it's only a handfull imo and watch a couple of their games with qualified personal who can estimate their skill level. You may think that's to much to ask for, but the AFH newbie Server run by instarcraft.de back in the day did it that way for edge cases and it worked quite well. I also like your idea of bumping up a player into the next tier mid season if he overperforms on his tier. I'm sure if we put the responsibility of gauging player skills on the captains and placing them in the proper tiers we can have a healthy idea. it also allows players to make attempts to jump up tiers if they want the challenge. Also how does Free Agency work? are we just contacting players in the thread, or are we gonna have some kind of draft? | ||
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Mustro16
1 Post
Race(define if Race Picker)  rotossMax iCCup Rank: C Country:Mexico | ||
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zs-Adun
United States16 Posts
Race: Protoss Max iCCup Rank: D Country: USA | ||
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Tru]Irish
6 Posts
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Shimy
United States771 Posts
I want to thank everyone for signing up so far! I just wanted to apologize for not getting a message out to everyone sooner on the current situation in the league (been really busy today). 1) Questions about rank cutoff and format. When I was planning on creating the league, I did not think that I would see so much interest from the C ranks community. I was under the impression that the vast majority of sign ups would be coming from the D ranks or newly C- ranks due to the new iCCup system. This is obviously not the case as the majority of sign ups at the moment are from the C ranks skill cap. grgg has brought up some very great points and we are definitely considering his recommendation, but this kind of decision is really hard to make at this point. Because we're still in the very early stages of sign ups, I really want to encourage both D ranks and C ranks alike to continue to sign up teams and free agents. The more people we have involved, the easier the decision will be on how to move forward. 2) Question on how the free agents are handled. Free agents are exactly that. Anyone is able to message a free agent and create teams/add players to teams, HOWEVER, at the current stage we're in, I want to promote more teams being involved. This means, right now, that the current teams formed should not add players from the free agency. I suggest that the current free agents message each other and try to form small teams (4 or 5 players). I'll step in where I feel I need to if I see player hogging or skill hogging. At the end of sign ups, free agents will be formed into new teams or distributed among already formed teams depending on the situation. 3) Maps A map pack is coming soon, there's just a few mining issues that need to be fixed on Demian. Freakling has been a major help thus far in the league and he is hard at work to resolve any map issues. Also, upon feedback, I have replaced La Mancha with Latin Quarter. CardinalAllin has also been a huge force in the foreign community and he feels that the map plays similarly enough to be used in this league. I like the idea of promoting foreign maps and just new maps in general. .... and because of popular demand, I have also replaced Othello with Fighting Spirit. As much as I loath Fighting Spirit, I feel that this decision not only satisfies current players, but creates a more familiar environment among the maps. It will hopefully draw less experienced players into the league. Thanks everyone and we're hard at work with a more concrete plan! Hwaiting! | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On October 17 2015 01:58 art_of_turtle wrote: Time to sign up a partial team Team DEsPA Name:Art_Of_Turtle (Captain) Race(define if Race Picker):  Max iCCup Rank: C (not actually playing for the team) Country: USA Name:JXN Race(define if Race Picker): Max iCCup Rank: D+ Country: Malaysia Name:Artanis Race(define if Race Picker): Max iCCup Rank: C Country:Neverland Name: BaD]Seed Race(define if Race Picker):  (if Allowed)  (If random not allowed)Max iCCup Rank:D+ Country: Germany Name: Rocko Race(define if Race Picker): v  v v Max iCCup Rank:D+ Country: Germany Name:Ninazerg (Unofficial Team Troll) Race(define if Race Picker): Max iCCup Rank: Pikachu Rank Country: USA actually im zvp pvz zvt | ||
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