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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
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United States13143 Posts
On August 14 2015 10:24 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early. Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
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On August 14 2015 07:14 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 06:56 Miragee wrote:On August 14 2015 06:51 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu sure has changed his strategy overall since the SSL era... he does a lot more cheesy, aggro, and just generally unusual/out of character builds these days than he did as a progamer. I like it - it suits his style well, and I always wished he could play this way in the past, when there were OSLs to be won. Maybe he's just one of those players who shines in a less stressful environment?
That said, Mind and hero improved a lot too from their PL days. They actually play like high-tier players nowadays. Impressive. Bisu has always played rather agressive and strats with a lot of multi tasking involved where other protosses shied away from. Even his standard builds looked different from other protosses because he executed them differently in regards to the use of the produced units. Well, unfortunately he had a habit of being predictable, and playing into T's strengths, with his normal builds. Terran is a better defensive race than Zerg, so it's a little harder for aggressive/multitask strats to really work without a proper understanding of timing and strategy. Bisu has gotten a bit better on that end at least, which actually makes his PvT results look better.
Agreed.
On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Mind's sloppy play (probably caused by tilting because the zealot popped in the last second), losing 5 scvs vs one zealot, put the final nail in the coffin.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 14 2015 15:01 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:24 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early. Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game. are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot.
EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened:
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote:
I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
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United States13143 Posts
On August 14 2015 15:32 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 15:01 Elyvilon wrote:On August 14 2015 10:24 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early. Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game. are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished? Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot. EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened: Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote:
I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there(otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game). It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr).
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On August 14 2015 04:39 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 02:03 johanes wrote:On August 14 2015 00:50 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2015 00:33 endy wrote:On August 13 2015 15:43 johanes wrote:
I think this should have been finals, not sure if other series will deliver SSL9 finals didn't deliver? Bisu and hero are even better then last finals. It will be intense if they meet. Im afraid Bisu will get 3:0 quickly by Hero. Going to need supporting facts here.
The future will bring the only facts you need. Also, Bisu notoriously known for complaining about maps, but not a word if it favors him heavily.
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On August 14 2015 15:55 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 15:32 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 15:01 Elyvilon wrote:On August 14 2015 10:24 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early. Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game. are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished? Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot. EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened: On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote:
I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/ Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there (otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game). It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr).
If you time out the 7/7 proxy build, the 'toss is cutting about 3 probes in order to do it.
Mind lost 3 scvs killing the gateway, and mining time from 6 scvs. Bisu lost the gateway, and mining time from 4 probes... but the probes had to travel farther than the scvs did (proxy gate was closer to Mind's base than Bisu's).
You folks decide who that makes ahead if the zel hadn't popped. To me, I guess slight edge to Mind, since he didn't lose 150 minerals on a dead gateway... but it's close.
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More armchair quarterbacking, it's therapeutic... 
What if Mind hadn't gone after the gate (until later, anyway), but instead just built a bunker covering his gas, rax, and much (but not all) of the mineral line?
Mind saw the proxy at 10/10 supply.
Looking at the timing, seems to be that he could've reacted by going rax then bunker immediately after, and the bunker would've finished @ the same time the first zel showed up in his base, or close (with a marine in it, a'course).
3 marines in the bunker by the time the 2nd zel shows up, or just about.
Could that've been better than the mass scv-pull, or a huge mistake in your opinion?
Bear in mind that Bisu had to cut 3 probes to do the 7/7 prox, so he is behind economically.
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What's going on here now? Anyways, it would have been mind's favor if he takes down the gateway before a zealot comes out in any circumstances. 7 7 build is a cheesy build, and protoss will be about 3 probes behind + sending 5th probe so protoss is already behind in resource. 7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
For the people who do not understand my explanation, try going 6 pool expo vs 9 pool expo in ZvT. There is a huge difference.
Btw, 77 build has been known for like more than 5 years. I think it was ever since destination map or fs map.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 14 2015 17:28 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 15:55 Elyvilon wrote:On August 14 2015 15:32 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 15:01 Elyvilon wrote:On August 14 2015 10:24 LegalLord wrote:On August 14 2015 09:38 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote:
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused. Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit). Seems huge to me, especially happening that early. Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game. are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished? Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot. EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened: On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote:
I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/ Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there (otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game). It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr). If you time out the 7/7 proxy build, the 'toss is cutting about 3 probes in order to do it. Mind lost 3 scvs killing the gateway, and mining time from 6 scvs. Bisu lost the gateway, and mining time from 4 probes... but the probes had to travel farther than the scvs did (proxy gate was closer to Mind's base than Bisu's). You folks decide who that makes ahead if the zel hadn't popped. To me, I guess slight edge to Mind, since he didn't lose 150 minerals on a dead gateway... but it's close.
The gateway isn't the problem here though... Bisu loses quite a few probes by cutting to get the 7/7 out. Loses a bit more to send the 3 probes, but those seem to have more than paid for themselves.
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On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote:
7 7 build is a cheesy build, and protoss will be about 3 probes behind + sending 5th probe so protoss is already behind in resource.
Yep, that's what I got when I mapped it out, 3 probes cut to do the 7/7 build.
On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote:
7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
Really? Well, okay then, let's check it out to be certain. I'll use Sayle's cast for the timings:
http://www.twitch.tv/saylesc/v/10663486?t=10m20s
Looking at Game 5, where Bisu did the 7/7, Game start is at 1:48:16 in the cast.
At 1:50:56, Bisu's zealot takes its first swing at an scv in Mind's base.
So, with 7/7, it was 2:40 from game start to 1st zealot in Mind's base, wreaking havoc.
So the question then becomes, will you have a rax done by 2:40? 
In Game 5 Mind didn't, but Mind pulled 6 scvs to go and kill the gate, and also early-scouted.
So what about the other games? Did Mind have a rax up by 2:40 in those?
Looking at it on the cast, it seems so. Mind beat that time several times in the series, and I don't think he was constantly going 8-rax/9-depot every game or anything.
Game 1: Game start at 12:37 on the cast, rax done at 15:20.
That's 2:43 into the game for the rax to get done, but that's with Mind putting a refinery up first to block Bisu's attempted gas steal, slightly delaying his rax.
Game 2: Game start at 36:22, rax done at 38:53.
Rax up at 2:31 into the game.
Game 3: Game start at 58:01. We don't see the rax finish, but at 1:00:38, the 1st marine pops.
So, 1st marine done at 2:37. A marine takes 15 seconds to build on Fastest game speed.
So 2:22 for the rax to finish from game start, at latest.
Game 4: Game start at 1:22:59. Again, we don't see the rax finish, but at 1:25:39 the 1st marine pops.
1st marine done at 2:40 into the game, so the rax was done at 2:25, at latest.
Judging from the results, does seem like you can have your rax done before the 7/7 zel shows up, without any exotic BOs.
Far as getting a bunker done by around the same time as the zel shows up... a bunker takes 19 seconds to build on Fastest. So the rax would have to be done by no later than 2:21, in order to get the bunker up by 2:40/when the 1st zel shows up.
To be fair, in no game did Mind get the rax up as fast as that, but he did come very close in Games 3 and 4 (missing by 1 and 4 seconds, respectively).
So, I dunno. 7/7 is fast, but maybe not THAT fast? And non-speed zealots walk slow. 
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Is it standard to pull probes like that for 7/7, or do P usually just let the gateway die when T send 6 SCVs against it?
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Great to see so much discussion. It's a sure sign thats things are exciting and people care about Broodwar once more.
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United States13143 Posts
On August 15 2015 00:10 LegalLord wrote:
Is it standard to pull probes like that for 7/7, or do P usually just let the gateway die when T send 6 SCVs against it?
the latter, it's only a slight terran lead(I believe) if that happens normally
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On August 15 2015 00:10 LegalLord wrote:
Is it standard to pull probes like that for 7/7, or do P usually just let the gateway die when T send 6 SCVs against it?
Its the first time I've seen a protoss actually send probes after seeing scvs being sent.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Well, can't really fault Mind for not sending one more SCV then. As Scan said, he calculated it correctly, but he just didn't expect that variation on the build. If, on the other hand, he sent a seventh SCV and Bisu didn't pull probes, he would've probably lost his slight lead.
Fancy stuff for a 7/7 cheese.
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Bisutopia19276 Posts
On August 15 2015 03:04 JieXian wrote:To all the haters and BigFan I only have one thing to say: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HB20RWQ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Occ1L6E.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgnews.naver.com/image/dailyesports/2011/07/21/20110721_5c2c729516353861c7ea885288733082.jpg) hahahaha
I love u!
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On August 15 2015 03:04 JieXian wrote:
To all the haters and BigFan...
What if you don't hate Bisu, but just like Mind?
I respect Bisu, but I'd rather have seen a Mind vs Hero finals, frankly, than a re-hash of the SSL9 finals.
Not to say Bisu vs Hero won't be good too... it's just that we've seen it before.
(of course, we could still get Bisu vs Free in a comparatively dull PvP finals, too)
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EPT
