On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote: 7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
Really? Well, okay then, let's check it out to be certain. I'll use Sayle's cast for the timings:
Looking at Game 5, where Bisu did the 7/7, Game start is at 1:48:16 in the cast. At 1:50:56, Bisu's zealot takes its first swing at an scv in Mind's base.
So, with 7/7, it was 2:40 from game start to 1st zealot in Mind's base, wreaking havoc.
So the question then becomes, will you have a rax done by 2:40? In Game 5 Mind didn't, but Mind pulled 6 scvs to go and kill the gate, and also early-scouted.
So what about the other games? Did Mind have a rax up by 2:40 in those?
Looking at it on the cast, it seems so. Mind beat that time several times in the series, and I don't think he was constantly going 8-rax/9-depot every game or anything.
Game 1: Game start at 12:37 on the cast, rax done at 15:20. That's 2:43 into the game for the rax to get done, but that's with Mind putting a refinery up first to block Bisu's attempted gas steal, slightly delaying his rax.
Game 2: Game start at 36:22, rax done at 38:53. Rax up at 2:31 into the game.
Game 3: Game start at 58:01. We don't see the rax finish, but at 1:00:38, the 1st marine pops. So, 1st marine done at 2:37. A marine takes 15 seconds to build on Fastest game speed. So 2:22 for the rax to finish from game start, at latest.
Game 4: Game start at 1:22:59. Again, we don't see the rax finish, but at 1:25:39 the 1st marine pops. 1st marine done at 2:40 into the game, so the rax was done at 2:25, at latest.
Judging from the results, does seem like you can have your rax done before the 7/7 zel shows up, without any exotic BOs.
Far as getting a bunker done by around the same time as the zel shows up... a bunker takes 19 seconds to build on Fastest. So the rax would have to be done by no later than 2:21, in order to get the bunker up by 2:40/when the 1st zel shows up.
To be fair, in no game did Mind get the rax up as fast as that, but he did come very close in Games 3 and 4 (missing by 1 and 4 seconds, respectively).
So, I dunno. 7/7 is fast, but maybe not THAT fast? And non-speed zealots walk slow.
Do Mind's rax timings pretty much match up with folks' personal experiences with the 7/7 build, both as an executor of it and/or as someone playing against it? Does it remain fair to say that your rax usually completes before the zealot shows up in your base? (though I'm not sure why it'd be any different).
Someone else in the thread complained of the 7/7 build being 'imba', but it doesn't seem quite fast enough to be that. Maybe it is if you also send 4 probes to kill the scvs?
And of course, mass-pulling scvs and then FAILING to keep the zealot from popping is the worst of all possible worlds.
Another thought: HBR does seem to have a slightly longer rush distance between bases than some maps (like Blue Storm). Not sure this really matters, since the probe gets sent out so early it has enough time to get to a pretty close proxy spot to the enemy main anyway... but still, thoughts/experiences on that welcome.
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
I love what you did it in that game, threatening the gas steal so that SPX built a refinery to block, delaying his rax. Evil.
Timing it, your zel got into the north end of his base at 2:38, i.e. 'bout as fast as Bisu did on HBR.
If T isn't delayed in making his rax by pulling scvs and/or blocking the gas steal, and is going 11-rax, he starts his rax @1:26–1:28, as you say. It's then done at 2:16–2:18 (on Fastest).
(SPX didn't start his 'rax until 1:42, btw).
1st marine w/11-rax is out at 2:31-2:33, i.e. just before the 1st zel arrives. Heck, you can even have a bunker in time... though it's very close.
Scan, do you think going bunker could be a viable alternative way to deal with it, instead of immediately attacking the gate? Or do you feel that pulling mass scvs and killing the gate is just way better, even accounting for something like Bisu's 4 probes harass of the scvs? Pulling the 1-2 additional scvs over the normal 6 takes care of that fully?
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
I love what you did it in that game, threatening the gas steal so that SPX built a refinery to block, delaying his rax. So evil.
Timing it, your zel got into the north end of his base at 2:38, i.e. 'bout as fast as Bisu did on HBR.
If the T isn't delayed in making his rax by pulling scvs and/or blocking the gas steal, and is going 11-rax, he starts his rax @1:26–1:28, as you say. It's then done at 2:16–2:18, on Fastest.
(SPX didn't start his 'rax until 1:42, btw).
1st marine w/11-rax is out at 2:31-2:33, i.e. just before the 1st zel arrives. Heck, you can even have a bunker in time... though it's very close.
Scan, do you think going bunker could be a viable alternative way to deal with it, instead of immediately attacking the gate? Or do you feel that pulling mass scvs and killing the gate is just way better, even accounting for something like Bisu's 4 probes harass of the scvs? Pulling the 1-2 additional scvs over the normal 6 takes care of that fully?
No... If the terran player wants to lose the game, then let him be. I won't stop because it's his game. Anyways, you can make a wall before the zealot gets in(highly impossible) and where the maps that protoss cannot cannon rush after the zealot. 99% of the game, terran players will just take down the gateway. Please do not ask me additional questions after this post. I've explained about this previous post, ty.
update: Mind vs Free, 3rd place match. Free tries the same proxy cheese vs Mind on HBR that Bisu did.
Mind beats it with a wall-in, of all things, and then goes and takes down the proxy gate (which he didn't scout early enough to pre-emptively take out... not that uncommon a situation).
EPT
