Cant wait - im going to upload these game onto my youtube channel tonight so everyone can rewatch them or incase you missed them - no fear! connor is here! ^^ i have also uploaded every game since day 1 (challenge day) here is the playlist - Sonic TV / SBENU Starleague Playlist - http://tinyurl.com/p79xs8h and my own channel https://www.youtube.com/c/Connor5620
On August 12 2015 13:16 Doraemon wrote: oh man, i miss this old school BW LR threads. good see there are still fans around and a decent community for the legends
everyone most posts in twitch chat tho, but I keep telling them to post in LR thread.
On August 12 2015 13:55 oxidized wrote: I swear Bisu is the cheesiest PvT progamer ever. Good defense by Mind though.
lol well, he purposely does it because he realizes that it's part of the mind games. If he can get the early advantage, he can ride it out and gain an even bigger advantage later on.
On August 12 2015 14:28 nbaker wrote: Question for you guys: Is Bisu throwing in those DTs to burn through Mind's scans to make his carriers stronger? or are DTs just amazing?
honestly, not 100% sure but there's always the chance of a mine drag too on top of what you mentioned. Anyone else have a better idea?
On August 12 2015 14:28 nbaker wrote: Question for you guys: Is Bisu throwing in those DTs to burn through Mind's scans to make his carriers stronger? or are DTs just amazing?
honestly, not 100% sure but there's always the chance of a mine drag too on top of what you mentioned. Anyone else have a better idea?
Well Bisu knows he doesn't have any vessels and only has a few bases for comsats so DTs can really pack a punch.
On August 12 2015 14:31 c3rberUs wrote: I never thought I'll see a day when Bisu's carriers will make someone so indecisive.
That said, I don't know what Mind could've done against the strategy.
With his natural getting harassed by carriers much of the game and goliaths out of reach, could have considered a pack of wraiths...
Seemed to have plenty of resources with a dozen+ factories, maybe 3 starports pumping cloaked wraiths would have turned the battle for a bit, especially with Bisu, per usual, being so lax about building high temps
On August 12 2015 14:28 nbaker wrote: Question for you guys: Is Bisu throwing in those DTs to burn through Mind's scans to make his carriers stronger? or are DTs just amazing?
honestly, not 100% sure but there's always the chance of a mine drag too on top of what you mentioned. Anyone else have a better idea?
Well Bisu knows he doesn't have any vessels and only has a few bases for comsats so DTs can really pack a punch.
Bisu also had a sizable economic lead, so DTs always push the multi-tasking resources of the player they are used against. One slip and, as we saw, 6 or so SCVs drop. Late game DTs are always valuable, whether in SC:BW or SC2.
The carriers having such a close distance to the nat was a huge boon for Bisu. I feel like Bisu planned for Carriers that map just in case he got a close nat position.
On August 12 2015 14:28 nbaker wrote: Question for you guys: Is Bisu throwing in those DTs to burn through Mind's scans to make his carriers stronger? or are DTs just amazing?
honestly, not 100% sure but there's always the chance of a mine drag too on top of what you mentioned. Anyone else have a better idea?
Well Bisu knows he doesn't have any vessels and only has a few bases for comsats so DTs can really pack a punch.
On August 12 2015 14:31 c3rberUs wrote: I never thought I'll see a day when Bisu's carriers will make someone so indecisive.
That said, I don't know what Mind could've done against the strategy.
With his natural getting harassed by carriers much of the game and goliaths out of reach, could have considered a pack of wraiths...
Seemed to have plenty of resources with a dozen+ factories, maybe 3 starports pumping cloaked wraiths would have turned the battle for a bit, especially with Bisu, per usual, being so lax about building high temps
I think it could've worked too but who knows, I think he was dedicating a lot of money into goliaths and 1-2 less production cycles might've cost him the game earlier?
On August 12 2015 14:31 c3rberUs wrote: I never thought I'll see a day when Bisu's carriers will make someone so indecisive.
That said, I don't know what Mind could've done against the strategy.
With his natural getting harassed by carriers much of the game and goliaths out of reach, could have considered a pack of wraiths...
Seemed to have plenty of resources with a dozen+ factories, maybe 3 starports pumping cloaked wraiths would have turned the battle for a bit, especially with Bisu, per usual, being so lax about building high temps
wraiths are awful and if you're pumping 3 star wraiths off of 3 bases a player of bisu's caliber will be able to tell the difference in production
This series is starting to remind me of certain Boxer vs Yellow semi-finals... Hope Mind can adapt to what is now predictable strategy and bring something new for game 5.
On August 12 2015 14:48 Hesmyrr wrote: This series is starting to remind me of certain Boxer vs Yellow semi-finals... Hope Mind can adapt to what is now predictable strategy and bring something new for game 5.
On August 12 2015 15:07 Shock710 wrote: wait mind knows the amount of scvs to kill it before the zealot comes out???
um, of course
common knowledge amongst pros
i know but that was like super super exact timing, he saw it probably clicked the hp??? and knew how many to bring minimum like holy fuck (and he would have gotten it perfectly)
On August 12 2015 15:15 Shock710 wrote: if it keeps going late tho, that early game isnt going to mean that much right?
if he can get that third up and mining, I think he can come back with good defense and a 180 push or something but Bisu isn't going to let it happen that easy.
On August 12 2015 15:21 Elyvilon wrote: I think bisu is a superior player and undeniably deserved to advance, but I can't deny that I'm bitter about HBR being in the mappool twice for TvP.
absolutely agree. i wanted literally any of the other 3 maps to be the double map. fuck this you dun fucked up ogn.
On August 12 2015 15:21 Elyvilon wrote: I think bisu is a superior player and undeniably deserved to advance, but I can't deny that I'm bitter about HBR being in the mappool twice for TvP.
Agreed. Bisu played well, but HBR is just straight up unfair with all the options Protoss has
On August 12 2015 15:21 Elyvilon wrote: I think bisu is a superior player and undeniably deserved to advance, but I can't deny that I'm bitter about HBR being in the mappool twice for TvP.
Even if HBR is protoss favoured, Bisu came up with the best strat and timing with his probe pull. Had he waited even a second later, that gateway would've went down, Mind would've had as good of an eco (or better) and a much stronger game but instead he fell behind as Bisu took a third etc...
On August 12 2015 15:24 BigFan wrote: Even if HBR is protoss favoured, Bisu came up with the best strat and timing with his probe pull. Had he waited even a second later, that gateway would've went down, Mind would've had as good of an eco (or better) and a much stronger game but instead he fell behind as Bisu took a third etc...
TBH, the normal protoss reaction to the scv pull to take down the proxy gate is to just let it fall. It's actually only a slight advantage for the terran because that is a lot of lost mining time.
Obviously it would have been way better for Mind than what actually transpired, but it's extremely hard for Mind to take advantage of it because the rush distance is so long, so Bisu would be able to recover, play a normal game, and probably still win.
Hero might have the advantage from playing the second best protoss zvp into zvp against the top pvz in bisu. Bisu is bisu however and hero still has to defeat free.
fuck, that series mad mee so sad for Mind, with the zealot making it out same time the gateway gets destroyed . but there is a whole slew of materials to discuss and analyze for both players, the storylines, and more!
For once I was able to watch a bit of the live stream. I've never seen Bisu this nervous after winning something other than a finals. The commentators also noted how out of breath he seemed. I couldn't catch the whole interview, but here's just two snippets that I thought were interesting.
Comentator: Who would you like to advance to the finals? (crowd shouts Hero's name) Bisu: It doesn't really matter who advances from the other semifinals. But I guess I'd rather meet Hero. Commentator: But you already lost to Hero in the Ro16. Still you feel confident? Bisu: Oh, well... (awkard laugh) I'll show you something different this finals.
...
Commentator: You used Carriers a lot this time. How come? Bisu: I think the fans don't have a good impression of my Carrier usage. But on my personal stream I use them quite well, so I wanted to show that off a bit.
On August 12 2015 15:34 GeLaar wrote: Bisu delivers again!
For once I was able to watch a bit of the live stream. I've never seen Bisu this nervous after winning something other than a finals. The commentators also noted how out of breath he seemed. I couldn't catch the whole interview, but here's just two snippets that I thought were interesting.
Comentator: Who would you like to advance to the finals? (crowd shouts Hero's name) Bisu: It doesn't really matter who advances from the other semifinals. But I guess I'd rather meet Hero. Commentator: But you already lost to Hero in the Ro16. Still you feel confident? Bisu: Oh, well... (awkard laugh) I'll show you something different this finals.
...
Commentator: You used Carriers a lot this time. How come? Bisu: I think the fans don't have a good impression of my Carrier usage. But on my personal stream I use them quite well, so I wanted to show that off a bit.
On August 12 2015 15:34 GeLaar wrote: Bisu delivers again!
Commentator: You used Carriers a lot this time. How come? Bisu: I think the fans don't have a good impression of my Carrier usage. But on my personal stream I use them quite well, so I wanted to show that off a bit.
Thanks much for translating! So Bisu is saying it wasn't strategic, but manifested out of ego?
DES interview coming up in a few minutes, if you don't mind translating for us again
On August 12 2015 15:19 BigFan wrote: Curse you Bisu! The cheers were pretty cool though lol
Why do you hate Bisu so much, Bigfan? Also maybe try another alias BigAnti-Fan?
Bisu will become an even better player if he has other players of his caliber challenging his status of #1 imo. Other than that, I play Terran, TvP is one hell of a hard match and protoss is an OP race. I think I did it right Also, you've been beaten already
On August 12 2015 15:24 BigFan wrote: Even if HBR is protoss favoured, Bisu came up with the best strat and timing with his probe pull. Had he waited even a second later, that gateway would've went down, Mind would've had as good of an eco (or better) and a much stronger game but instead he fell behind as Bisu took a third etc...
TBH, the normal protoss reaction to the scv pull to take down the proxy gate is to just let it fall. It's actually only a slight advantage for the terran because that is a lot of lost mining time.
Obviously it would have been way better for Mind than what actually transpired, but it's extremely hard for Mind to take advantage of it because the rush distance is so long, so Bisu would be able to recover, play a normal game, and probably still win.
yes, of course but at least he wouldn't have lost so many SCVs if he killed the gateway just before the zealot came out. Bisu would've still be in a good position but at least he would've had a chance to get that last push or even make his own push toward Bisu's bases etc...
I get why people would feel bad for Mind after this series, but I don't get the hate directed at Bisu. He was anything but arrogant, and didn't have an "it's ok, I got this" attitude. And he was quite humble in the interview. So I don't think the usual reasons given for disliking him apply this time.
On August 12 2015 15:42 GeLaar wrote: I get why people would feel bad for Mind after this series, but I don't get the hate directed at Bisu. He was anything but arrogant, and didn't have an "it's ok, I got this" attitude. And he was quite humble in the interview. So I don't think the usual reasons given for disliking him apply this time.
People are disappointed, I doubt anyone really has anything against Bisu really.
On August 12 2015 15:42 GeLaar wrote: I get why people would feel bad for Mind after this series, but I don't get the hate directed at Bisu. He was anything but arrogant, and didn't have an "it's ok, I got this" attitude. And he was quite humble in the interview. So I don't think the usual reasons given for disliking him apply this time.
Haters gonna hate... I used to be an anti-Flash but now I miss him.
On August 12 2015 15:34 GeLaar wrote: Bisu delivers again!
Commentator: You used Carriers a lot this time. How come? Bisu: I think the fans don't have a good impression of my Carrier usage. But on my personal stream I use them quite well, so I wanted to show that off a bit.
Thanks much for translating! So Bisu is saying it wasn't strategic, but manifested out of ego?
DES interview coming up in a few minutes, if you don't mind translating for us again
Uhm, what's DES? I'm afraid I can't watch the stream anymore right now... If that interview gets uploaded to youtube or is available as text, PM me a link and I'll post a translation here.
On August 12 2015 15:34 GeLaar wrote: Bisu delivers again!
Commentator: You used Carriers a lot this time. How come? Bisu: I think the fans don't have a good impression of my Carrier usage. But on my personal stream I use them quite well, so I wanted to show that off a bit.
Thanks much for translating! So Bisu is saying it wasn't strategic, but manifested out of ego?
DES interview coming up in a few minutes, if you don't mind translating for us again
Uhm, what's DES? I'm afraid I can't watch the stream anymore right now... If that interview gets uploaded to youtube or is available as text, PM me a link and I'll post a translation here.
On August 12 2015 15:42 GeLaar wrote: I get why people would feel bad for Mind after this series, but I don't get the hate directed at Bisu. He was anything but arrogant, and didn't have an "it's ok, I got this" attitude. And he was quite humble in the interview. So I don't think the usual reasons given for disliking him apply this time.
People are disappointed, I doubt anyone really has anything against Bisu really.
+1. I think ppl felt bad for Mind, or were hoping for a Mind vs Hero finals more than having any Bisu-hate.
Mind really could've taken that series, but playing tight/tentative on Mancha plus a bit of bad luck (plus the map pool), well... coulda shoulda woulda.
There's no better T out there though, so I'd think Mind will come back and be the dominant player of the current era, along with maybe Effort and Hero. Bisu will be watching all that from the army barracks.
Much closer series than it should be expected, knowing Mind was 1-2 vs Movie at group stage. Breaking point was his indecision on La Mancha, where he was just moving up and down with some dreadful mech army, losing to Bisu's more expansions and carriers harassment.
Remarkable last game, where counter to cheese play, discovered by the earliest possible way, was counter-countered by great probe motion. Without probes, which parried tons of damage from SCV, the game would be much closer. It was obviously not about map choice, only about skills and decisions.
Bisu made carriers - very useful talent toi have. Bisu cheesed 2nd game. And Bisu cheesed in last game even though knowing that HBR favors protoss. Hero's going to eat alive that mollusk.
There's no better T out there though, so I'd think Mind will come back and be the dominant player of the current era, along with maybe Effort and Hero. Bisu will be watching all that from the army barracks.
so far ive watched game 1 2 and 3. 1 and 2 was good, but 3 is frustratingly stupid on the side of mind. Hes playing so bad that i dont believe im watching mind playin. What is that army movement is mind out of mind? Why not go 12 push carriers out of his nat, take 12 as 4th and attack protoss natural, pretty simple isnt it? I guess hes just having a bad day with the nerves otherwise i cant explain such bad play. Aand game 5 is BBS a.k.a. Bisu's bullshit. Embarasing stuff for a player of such caliber. Thats why i cannot praise bisu, he always does this and kills my protoss fanboism. That plus 2 times HBR and still Mind is looking like a better player(except in game 3)
Just watched the games. Solid series, great to watch. Game 3 was a bit weak though, mostly because of Mind's indecisiveness. I found game 5 to be quite cool, even though it was so one sided after bisu lucked out that one zealot (or more like Mind anti lucked it out).
I didn't see game 1 before but im assuming bisu just went carriers and stomped. game 2: clever cheese by bisu, but a great hold by mind at the top of the ramp with tanks. even if bisu killed that initial army i still think mind was in a great position being a base up.
game 3: mind looks like he forgot how to push and just kept moving back and forth. was very very disappointing to watch.
game 4: circuit breaker. too easy for terrans. but also mind adapted really well to the exact same build bisu threw out this time.
On August 13 2015 00:17 FlaShFTW wrote: I didn't see game 1 before but im assuming bisu just went carriers and stomped. game 2: clever cheese by bisu, but a great hold by mind at the top of the ramp with tanks. even if bisu killed that initial army i still think mind was in a great position being a base up.
game 3: mind looks like he forgot how to push and just kept moving back and forth. was very very disappointing to watch.
game 4: circuit breaker. too easy for terrans. but also mind adapted really well to the exact same build bisu threw out this time.
game 5. bullshit. nuff said.
that game 5 was awesome,there was so much in the line.Bisu sent early probe to proxy a pylon(this mean his economy is actually weak,he need get some gain from it,alright build a pylon gate,then Mind great sense of play scout it and instantly sent scvs to deny this,now bw is so magical,in theory if mind manage to deny this proxy gate and kill pylon he will be so ahead that he will play the rest of the game leading it,then bisu appear with 4 probes and starts to snipe scvs and delay the time kill of the gateway it was so magic that if for some reason this zealot didnt out this was game over for Bisu,doing a proxy build and sending more probes to defend and also loss 100 minerals of the zealot in the gateway,instead what happen was Bisu saved enough time to the zealot out ,it was so close that was unreal and sniped so many scvs,very very high lvl play,im sure most of the people watching the game will just think ah sh*t what a lucky zealot blabla,but there is so much skill in that game.
if someone gonna do a recap feel free fix my grammar and add my notes to that game. ^^;
On August 13 2015 00:17 FlaShFTW wrote: I didn't see game 1 before but im assuming bisu just went carriers and stomped. game 2: clever cheese by bisu, but a great hold by mind at the top of the ramp with tanks. even if bisu killed that initial army i still think mind was in a great position being a base up.
game 3: mind looks like he forgot how to push and just kept moving back and forth. was very very disappointing to watch.
game 4: circuit breaker. too easy for terrans. but also mind adapted really well to the exact same build bisu threw out this time.
game 5. bullshit. nuff said.
that game 5 was awesome,there was so much in the line.Bisu sent early probe to proxy a pylon(this mean his economy is actually weak,he need get some gain from it,alright build a pylon gate,then Mind great sense of play scout it and instantly sent scvs to deny this,now bw is so magical,in theory if mind manage to deny this proxy gate and kill pylon he will be so ahead that he will play the rest of the game leading it,then bisu appear with 4 probes and starts to snipe scvs and delay the time kill of the gateway it was so magic that if for some reason this zealot didnt out this was game over for Bisu,doing a proxy build and sending more probes to defend and also loss 100 minerals of the zealot in the gateway,instead what happen was Bisu saved enough time to the zealot out ,it was so close that was unreal and sniped so many scvs,very very high lvl play,im sure most of the people watching the game will just think ah sh*t what a lucky zealot blabla,but there is so much skill in that game.
if someone gonna do a recap feel free fix my grammar and add my notes to that game. ^^;
Pulling probes was key and with that bisu was going to be ahead even if the zealot didnt come coz bisu killed scvs and mining probes prolly doubled mind's while mind pull so many scvs so early, its still bullshit.
I actually really enjoyed game 5. Like the game was pretty much over after the zealot managed to spawn but the thought of sending probes after having the proxy detected was really smart. Mind and pretty much every good terran already has everything calculated and optimized when dealing with a proxy gate on HBR. They know exactly how many scvs they should send to kill the gateway before a zealot can finish and Bisu knew this so he took advantage by sending more probes to kill/delay the scvs.
In the interview after Bisu actually said the proxy gate in game 5 actually wasn't prepared beforehand. He decided to do it after seeing Mind's response to Bisu's gas rush in the first game. In the first game Mind delayed his barracks to make his refinery first when seeing Bisu trying to do a gas steal. So if Bisu fakes a gas steal this time and Mind reacts the same way his barracks would be delayed and would have gotten more damage from the proxy gate but the game went differently after Mind scouted the proxy so early.
Also another thing to note is that Bisu said that he knew his zealot was going to finish in time but even though he knew it was going to finish he still felt nervous when his gateway health turned red. ^^
On August 13 2015 02:26 Piste wrote: Mind may be the mindless terran machine, but bisu is the better tournament player. He can win even when he ''seems to be the underdog''.
On August 12 2015 15:42 GeLaar wrote: I get why people would feel bad for Mind after this series, but I don't get the hate directed at Bisu. He was anything but arrogant, and didn't have an "it's ok, I got this" attitude. And he was quite humble in the interview. So I don't think the usual reasons given for disliking him apply this time.
I don't hate Bisu but I would like to see someone beat him, especially ones of Mind's caliber since he's kind of the final boss and the best protoss player. Also, he plays protoss and TvP is dreadful so there's that too!
I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Sick series! Hadn't watched any BW in a while. I liked the refreshing PvT build by Bisu with the early two base two stargate carriers into 2 carriers + 1 shuttle harrass into mass expand while keeping his opponent busy. Felt pretty strong although Mind didn't respond as well as he could have in game 3.
On August 12 2015 20:57 _Animus_ wrote: Aand game 5 is BBS a.k.a. Bisu's bullshit. Embarasing stuff for a player of such caliber.
it was rather subtle but it was uncanny how quickly mind pulled his scvs to send it to kill the proxy -- literally less than one 1 second after he saw the proxy
what was even uncannier was how quickly bisu reacted to THAT - by sending his probes literally few microseconds after he saw mind pull his scvs
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Wonder what would've happened if Mind had taken down the pylon instead... lots less hp/sp there than the gate...
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Wonder what would've happened if Mind had taken down the pylon instead... lots less hp/sp there than the gate...
I have wondered about the same thing but I have never seen a good terran ever attack the pylon. I always see them attack the gateway. I never personally tested it so I don't know the exact reasons why but just thinking about it, I think because pylons build so quickly if the protoss sees you attacking the pylon, he can just make another one and it'll probably finish when the first pylon is destroyed which means the gateway is still being powered.
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Wonder what would've happened if Mind had taken down the pylon instead... lots less hp/sp there than the gate...
I have wondered about the same thing but I have never seen a good terran ever attack the pylon. I always see them attack the gateway. I never personally tested it so I don't know the exact reasons why but just thinking about it, I think because pylons build so quickly if the protoss sees you attacking the pylon, he can just make another one and it'll probably finish when the first pylon is destroyed which means the gateway is still being powered.
Well then you could just have the SCVs destroy the next warping-in pylon, too... but I guess you don't want to be out there all day destroying pylons when you should be mining.
And at some point the proxying 'toss has the cash to have or start two or more proxy pylons at the same time... yah, you're right, makes sense that you go after the gate first.
Still seeing the match through 'why you not win, Mind' -vision.
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Wonder what would've happened if Mind had taken down the pylon instead... lots less hp/sp there than the gate...
I have wondered about the same thing but I have never seen a good terran ever attack the pylon. I always see them attack the gateway. I never personally tested it so I don't know the exact reasons why but just thinking about it, I think because pylons build so quickly if the protoss sees you attacking the pylon, he can just make another one and it'll probably finish when the first pylon is destroyed which means the gateway is still being powered.
Well then you could just have the SCVs destroy the next warping-in pylon, too... but I guess you don't want to be out there all day destroying pylons when you should be mining.
And at some point the proxying 'toss might have the cash to start two or more pylons at the same time... yeah, you're right, makes sense that you go after the gate first.
I think it also has to do with the surface area of the gateway compared to the pylon. It's easier for scvs to surround and hit the gateway than the small pylon, especially if you are microing against taking damage from probes.
On August 13 2015 07:07 endy wrote: i loved the twitch chat when that zealot popped out of the gateway literally a fraction of a second before it was destroyed.
I immediately noticed my feed was a minute behind when twitch chat erupted into a chaotic frenzy of all-caps, one worded spams from dozens of people while Bisu and Mind were starting to mine haha.
Toss can just drop another pylon the moment they see the pylon getting attacked.
This series is so close that everything came down to milliseconds. Talk about a photo finish.
Q: How do you feel about finally making it to the Starleague finals? A: Since my progamer days it had been my dream to make it to a finals. [TN: Odd that they talk as if SSL9 wasn't a real Starleague and he's only now made it to a Starleague finals. I guess they mean televised ones.]
Q: You faced a difficult opponent in Mind. A: Well, he beat me once in a finals, and I think also on another occasion when it mattered. But other than that, I defeated him a lot, so I was rather confident. Still, he is a rather scary opponent to face.
Q: You used Carriers a lot, and also used them well in combinations with other units. A: These builds were not prepared for today. I was thinking I'll just see what my opponent does, and react. Back when I was a progamer, I really wasn't good at using Carriers. I didn't know how. But since I've been broadcasting on my stream, I've learned a few more things, got the hang of using them, and became more confident. So I used them today, and it went well in two games.
Q: Free or Hero? A: They're both scary players. But I guess many people would prefer Hero to advance. And I will also prepare some interesting games.
Q: You lost a game to Hero in the Ro16. A: I didn't really care about that. He lost more to me in the past, so I think it will be him trying to get revenge.
Q: A few words for the fans? A: When I got on stage I was really shocked at how many people showed up. After all the support I've received from them, I really don't regret becoming a progamer. I can't express my gratitude other than through my games, so I will try to do just that.
Q: How do you feel about finally making it to the Starleague finals? A: Since my progamer days it had been my dream to make it to a finals. [TN: Odd that they talk as if SSL9 wasn't a real Starleague and he's only now made it to a Starleague finals. I guess they mean televised ones.]
Q: You faced a difficult opponent in Mind. A: Well, he beat me once in a finals, and I think also on another occasion when it mattered. But other than that, I defeated him a lot, so I was rather confident. Still, he is a rather scary opponent to face.
Q: You used Carriers a lot, and also used them well in combinations with other units. A: These builds were not prepared for today. I was thinking I'll just see what my opponent does, and react. Back when I was a progamer, I really wasn't good at using Carriers. I didn't know how. But since I've been broadcasting on my stream, I've learned a few more things, got the hang of using them, and became more confident. So I used them today, and it went well in two games.
Q: Free or Hero? A: They're both scary players. But I guess many people would prefer Hero to advance. And I will also prepare some interesting games.
Q: You lost a game to Hero in the Ro16. A: I didn't really care about that. He lost more to me in the past, so I think it will be him trying to get revenge.
Q: A few words for the fans? A: When I got on stage I was really shocked at how many people showed up. After all the support I've received from them, I really don't regret becoming a progamer. I can't express my gratitude other than through my games, so I will try to do just that.
Q: How do you feel about finally making it to the Starleague finals? A: Since my progamer days it had been my dream to make it to a finals. [TN: Odd that they talk as if SSL9 wasn't a real Starleague and he's only now made it to a Starleague finals. I guess they mean televised ones.]
Q: You faced a difficult opponent in Mind. A: Well, he beat me once in a finals, and I think also on another occasion when it mattered. But other than that, I defeated him a lot, so I was rather confident. Still, he is a rather scary opponent to face.
Q: You used Carriers a lot, and also used them well in combinations with other units. A: These builds were not prepared for today. I was thinking I'll just see what my opponent does, and react. Back when I was a progamer, I really wasn't good at using Carriers. I didn't know how. But since I've been broadcasting on my stream, I've learned a few more things, got the hang of using them, and became more confident. So I used them today, and it went well in two games.
Q: Free or Hero? A: They're both scary players. But I guess many people would prefer Hero to advance. And I will also prepare some interesting games.
Q: You lost a game to Hero in the Ro16. A: I didn't really care about that. He lost more to me in the past, so I think it will be him trying to get revenge.
Q: A few words for the fans? A: When I got on stage I was really shocked at how many people showed up. After all the support I've received from them, I really don't regret becoming a progamer. I can't express my gratitude other than through my games, so I will try to do just that.
Even full shine wouldn't be enough, their half an hour highest level epic in group stage is the evidence. Only incredibly bad play by Bisu would be the reason of quick 3:0 lose, but it looks somehow improbable.
Hence we are awaiting massive finals.
On August 13 2015 15:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I have wondered about the same thing but I have never seen a good terran ever attack the pylon. I always see them attack the gateway. I never personally tested it so I don't know the exact reasons why but just thinking about it, I think because pylons build so quickly if the protoss sees you attacking the pylon, he can just make another one and it'll probably finish when the first pylon is destroyed which means the gateway is still being powered.
On August 13 2015 15:25 [[Starlight]] wrote: Well then you could just have the SCVs destroy the next warping-in pylon, too... but I guess you don't want to be out there all day destroying pylons when you should be mining.
On August 13 2015 17:24 deathgod6 wrote: I think it also has to do with the surface area of the gateway compared to the pylon. It's easier for scvs to surround and hit the gateway than the small pylon, especially if you are microing against taking damage from probes.
Are you kidding, guys? Just a few posts above your nonsense, I've written the only and exact reason, which is incredibly simple and obvious for anyone, who played sc:
On August 13 2015 14:34 aedeph wrote: Nothing good for Mind, unpowered buildings in the middle of production resume their work.
EDIT: However, "resume" is probably inconvenient word, "continue" suits better, I guess.
On August 13 2015 15:43 johanes wrote: I think this should have been finals, not sure if other series will deliver
SSL9 finals didn't deliver?
Bisu and hero are even better then last finals. It will be intense if they meet.
Im afraid Bisu will get 3:0 quickly by Hero.
Maybe on ladder on a good day for Hero, but live on stage? Bisu is all about performing on stage. Bisu will also get Hero to showcase his ZvP vs Free. So it's looking really good for Bisu.
On August 14 2015 02:36 aedeph wrote: Are you kidding, guys? Just a few posts above your nonsense, I've written the only and exact reason, which is incredibly simple and obvious for anyone, who played sc
Calm down Trigger, we get it. As I said earlier:
"Still seeing the match through 'why you not win, Mind' -vision. "
Q: You used Carriers a lot, and also used them well in combinations with other units. A: These builds were not prepared for today. I was thinking I'll just see what my opponent does, and react. Back when I was a progamer, I really wasn't good at using Carriers. I didn't know how. But since I've been broadcasting on my stream, I've learned a few more things, got the hang of using them, and became more confident. So I used them today, and it went well in two games.
Thanks for translating! PM'd ya another interview (here) but I imagine it's largely identical
Surprised Bisu impromptu switched to carriers reacting to Mind's builds, which seemed pretty standard TvP play... It's funny Bisu mentions having become accustomed to carriers in this Afreeca era, as he rarely uses them on Fighting Spirit, so I'd love to hear what he has to say about any shifts in TvP strategies that prompted this decision making...
Bisu sure has changed his strategy overall since the SSL era... he does a lot more cheesy, aggro, and just generally unusual/out of character builds these days than he did as a progamer. I like it - it suits his style well, and I always wished he could play this way in the past, when there were OSLs to be won. Maybe he's just one of those players who shines in a less stressful environment?
That said, Mind and hero improved a lot too from their PL days. They actually play like high-tier players nowadays. Impressive.
On August 14 2015 06:51 LegalLord wrote: Bisu sure has changed his strategy overall since the SSL era... he does a lot more cheesy, aggro, and just generally unusual/out of character builds these days than he did as a progamer. I like it - it suits his style well, and I always wished he could play this way in the past, when there were OSLs to be won. Maybe he's just one of those players who shines in a less stressful environment?
That said, Mind and hero improved a lot too from their PL days. They actually play like high-tier players nowadays. Impressive.
Bisu has always played rather agressive and strats with a lot of multi tasking involved where other protosses shied away from. Even his standard builds looked different from other protosses because he executed them differently in regards to the use of the produced units.
On August 14 2015 06:51 LegalLord wrote: Bisu sure has changed his strategy overall since the SSL era... he does a lot more cheesy, aggro, and just generally unusual/out of character builds these days than he did as a progamer. I like it - it suits his style well, and I always wished he could play this way in the past, when there were OSLs to be won. Maybe he's just one of those players who shines in a less stressful environment?
That said, Mind and hero improved a lot too from their PL days. They actually play like high-tier players nowadays. Impressive.
Bisu has always played rather agressive and strats with a lot of multi tasking involved where other protosses shied away from. Even his standard builds looked different from other protosses because he executed them differently in regards to the use of the produced units.
Well, unfortunately he had a habit of being predictable, and playing into T's strengths, with his normal builds. Terran is a better defensive race than Zerg, so it's a little harder for aggressive/multitask strats to really work without a proper understanding of timing and strategy. Bisu has gotten a bit better on that end at least, which actually makes his PvT results look better.
On August 14 2015 06:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Let us mourn, mmmkay? Geez.
*still mad at stupid zealot popping just-in-time*
Your suffering is insufficient.
Here zealot is still not finished, and gateway has just 12 hit points, which mean, that it would have been dead, if Mind have sent 6th SCV just slightly earlier with the whole group of 4th SCV.from the mining line (6th SCV was scout).
On August 14 2015 06:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Let us mourn, mmmkay? Geez.
*still mad at stupid zealot popping just-in-time*
Your suffering is insufficient.
Here zealot is still not finished, and gateway has just 12 hit points, which mean, that it would have been dead, if Mind have sent 6th SCV just slightly earlier with the whole group of 4th SCV.from the mining line (6th SCV was scout).
He should've delayed rax a bit more and sent many SCVs earlier. 7 7 build is only effective when zealot gets into terran's base. If Terran secured killing that gateway before 1 zealot is made, then it will be terran's favor.
Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
On August 14 2015 06:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: Let us mourn, mmmkay? Geez.
*still mad at stupid zealot popping just-in-time*
Your suffering is insufficient.
Here zealot is still not finished, and gateway has just 12 hit points, which mean, that it would have been dead, if Mind have sent 6th SCV just slightly earlier with the whole group of 4th SCV.from the mining line (6th SCV was scout).
He should've delayed rax a bit more and sent many SCVs earlier. 7 7 build is only effective when zealot gets into terran's base. If Terran secured killing that gateway before 1 zealot is made, then it will be terran's favor.
With 6 SCVs and 4 counter probes, zealot timing was a coin flip. In time of moving SCVs we can see Mind's POV with 10/10 limit, one SCV constructing supply. 7 SCVs will leave him with 2 to consecutive 4 SCVs mining - massive economic handicap, even with greatly delayed rax. Besides, zealot was very effective just by the fact of construction - Bisu easily sniped a lot of SCVs without any significant damage to the probes.
So 7 build looks pretty imba, of course, in case you have such nice multitasking and micro skills.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
On August 14 2015 06:51 LegalLord wrote: Bisu sure has changed his strategy overall since the SSL era... he does a lot more cheesy, aggro, and just generally unusual/out of character builds these days than he did as a progamer. I like it - it suits his style well, and I always wished he could play this way in the past, when there were OSLs to be won. Maybe he's just one of those players who shines in a less stressful environment?
That said, Mind and hero improved a lot too from their PL days. They actually play like high-tier players nowadays. Impressive.
Bisu has always played rather agressive and strats with a lot of multi tasking involved where other protosses shied away from. Even his standard builds looked different from other protosses because he executed them differently in regards to the use of the produced units.
Well, unfortunately he had a habit of being predictable, and playing into T's strengths, with his normal builds. Terran is a better defensive race than Zerg, so it's a little harder for aggressive/multitask strats to really work without a proper understanding of timing and strategy. Bisu has gotten a bit better on that end at least, which actually makes his PvT results look better.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Mind's sloppy play (probably caused by tilting because the zealot popped in the last second), losing 5 scvs vs one zealot, put the final nail in the coffin.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot.
EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened:
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot.
EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened:
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there(otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game). It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr).
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot.
EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened:
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there (otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game).
It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr).
If you time out the 7/7 proxy build, the 'toss is cutting about 3 probes in order to do it.
Mind lost 3 scvs killing the gateway, and mining time from 6 scvs. Bisu lost the gateway, and mining time from 4 probes... but the probes had to travel farther than the scvs did (proxy gate was closer to Mind's base than Bisu's).
You folks decide who that makes ahead if the zel hadn't popped. To me, I guess slight edge to Mind, since he didn't lose 150 minerals on a dead gateway... but it's close.
What if Mind hadn't gone after the gate (until later, anyway), but instead just built a bunker covering his gas, rax, and much (but not all) of the mineral line?
Mind saw the proxy at 10/10 supply.
Looking at the timing, seems to be that he could've reacted by going rax then bunker immediately after, and the bunker would've finished @ the same time the first zel showed up in his base, or close (with a marine in it, a'course).
3 marines in the bunker by the time the 2nd zel shows up, or just about.
Could that've been better than the mass scv-pull, or a huge mistake in your opinion?
Bear in mind that Bisu had to cut 3 probes to do the 7/7 prox, so he is behind economically.
What's going on here now? Anyways, it would have been mind's favor if he takes down the gateway before a zealot comes out in any circumstances. 7 7 build is a cheesy build, and protoss will be about 3 probes behind + sending 5th probe so protoss is already behind in resource. 7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
For the people who do not understand my explanation, try going 6 pool expo vs 9 pool expo in ZvT. There is a huge difference.
Btw, 77 build has been known for like more than 5 years. I think it was ever since destination map or fs map.
On August 14 2015 07:35 LegalLord wrote: Would it have really made a phenomenal difference? He would have lost three (or so, don't remember exactly) less SCV's. While that is a lot, pulling all the SCVs he did, and losing half of them, already cost him at least enough to make that attack worth the money to Bisu. And Bisu would've had an extra 100 minerals from that zealot, and Mind would be short the minerals that that sixth SCV wouldn't have mined.
Seemed more psychological than economical in terms of how much damage that zealot caused.
Looking at the replay, the zealot got 4 scv kills, and most of a 5th (a probie helped a bit).
Seems huge to me, especially happening that early.
Yes, that many kills is a definite game ender. But it seemed like Mind was a little sloppy in his defense, and he already spent a lot on pulling SCVs against a rather well-placed 7/7 rush (doesn't seem like Bisu really cared if it was scouted or not), enough to tip the scales in Bisu's favor in terms of economy gained from the maneuver. Point is not that it wasn't beneficial to get the zealot, but that it probably wouldn't have changed who was ahead in the game.
are you arguing that losing 1/3 of your workers in addition to a lot of lost mining time doesn't make a huge difference? Also, are you disagreeing with Scan that Mind would have been ahead had the zealot not finished?
Really, I'm asking if someone could explain to me what the economics would have been like if he didn't get the zealot out. Looks to me like Bisu would have lost the chance to end Mind's economy, but I don't see how Mind would be ahead (as Scan rather vaguely points out) if he had pulled the extra SCV to stop the zealot.
EDIT: This Scan post is a lot less vague and gives a much better description of what happened:
On August 13 2015 07:09 LaStScan wrote: I really wish mind sent 1~2 more scvs. He should've sensed it was 7 7 build. Mind has to delay his barracks timing, and he must make sure that he takes down the gateway.
Terran player sends 1 scv at 10/10 population (9th scv) to find proxy. If terran gets to see probe was coming + gateway is already 50%, then it must be 7 7 build. Mind's 6 scvs pull was perfect calculation to kill a gateway before the zealot comes out. Unfortunately, he did not prepare against 3 additional probes. :/
Mind would have been ahead had he taken down the gate before the zeal popped because 7/7 requires some probe cutting, while scv pulling at that time does not require scv cutting. It's not a huge lead, but it's certainly there (otherwise toss would go 7/7 every game).
It can lead to a slightly earlier/safer expansion relative to the protoss player(although I think Bisu would have been still favored against Mind because hbr).
If you time out the 7/7 proxy build, the 'toss is cutting about 3 probes in order to do it.
Mind lost 3 scvs killing the gateway, and mining time from 6 scvs. Bisu lost the gateway, and mining time from 4 probes... but the probes had to travel farther than the scvs did (proxy gate was closer to Mind's base than Bisu's).
You folks decide who that makes ahead if the zel hadn't popped. To me, I guess slight edge to Mind, since he didn't lose 150 minerals on a dead gateway... but it's close.
The gateway isn't the problem here though... Bisu loses quite a few probes by cutting to get the 7/7 out. Loses a bit more to send the 3 probes, but those seem to have more than paid for themselves.
On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote: 7 7 build is a cheesy build, and protoss will be about 3 probes behind + sending 5th probe so protoss is already behind in resource.
Yep, that's what I got when I mapped it out, 3 probes cut to do the 7/7 build.
On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote: 7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
Really? Well, okay then, let's check it out to be certain. I'll use Sayle's cast for the timings:
Looking at Game 5, where Bisu did the 7/7, Game start is at 1:48:16 in the cast. At 1:50:56, Bisu's zealot takes its first swing at an scv in Mind's base.
So, with 7/7, it was 2:40 from game start to 1st zealot in Mind's base, wreaking havoc.
So the question then becomes, will you have a rax done by 2:40? In Game 5 Mind didn't, but Mind pulled 6 scvs to go and kill the gate, and also early-scouted.
So what about the other games? Did Mind have a rax up by 2:40 in those?
Looking at it on the cast, it seems so. Mind beat that time several times in the series, and I don't think he was constantly going 8-rax/9-depot every game or anything.
Game 1: Game start at 12:37 on the cast, rax done at 15:20. That's 2:43 into the game for the rax to get done, but that's with Mind putting a refinery up first to block Bisu's attempted gas steal, slightly delaying his rax.
Game 2: Game start at 36:22, rax done at 38:53. Rax up at 2:31 into the game.
Game 3: Game start at 58:01. We don't see the rax finish, but at 1:00:38, the 1st marine pops. So, 1st marine done at 2:37. A marine takes 15 seconds to build on Fastest game speed. So 2:22 for the rax to finish from game start, at latest.
Game 4: Game start at 1:22:59. Again, we don't see the rax finish, but at 1:25:39 the 1st marine pops. 1st marine done at 2:40 into the game, so the rax was done at 2:25, at latest.
Judging from the results, does seem like you can have your rax done before the 7/7 zel shows up, without any exotic BOs.
Far as getting a bunker done by around the same time as the zel shows up... a bunker takes 19 seconds to build on Fastest. So the rax would have to be done by no later than 2:21, in order to get the bunker up by 2:40/when the 1st zel shows up.
To be fair, in no game did Mind get the rax up as fast as that, but he did come very close in Games 3 and 4 (missing by 1 and 4 seconds, respectively).
So, I dunno. 7/7 is fast, but maybe not THAT fast? And non-speed zealots walk slow.
On August 15 2015 00:10 LegalLord wrote: Is it standard to pull probes like that for 7/7, or do P usually just let the gateway die when T send 6 SCVs against it?
the latter, it's only a slight terran lead(I believe) if that happens normally
On August 15 2015 00:10 LegalLord wrote: Is it standard to pull probes like that for 7/7, or do P usually just let the gateway die when T send 6 SCVs against it?
Its the first time I've seen a protoss actually send probes after seeing scvs being sent.
Well, can't really fault Mind for not sending one more SCV then. As Scan said, he calculated it correctly, but he just didn't expect that variation on the build. If, on the other hand, he sent a seventh SCV and Bisu didn't pull probes, he would've probably lost his slight lead.
he had enough time to harass the probe away; or try and just fake pull SCVs. And you gotta build a depot or depot+rax wall on that position on HBR, just a rax would not have been zeal tight.
On August 16 2015 17:38 Freakling wrote: he had enough time to harass the probe away; or try and just fake pull SCVs. And you gotta build a depot or depot+rax wall on that position on HBR, just a rax would not have been zeal tight.
Bisu is known for good probe micro, you know... For the timing: When the zealot reached the base Mind had just placed the rax.
Anyways, I believe you can block the choke with just one depot placed in the middle. But that would end up in another disadvantage for Mind.
On August 16 2015 17:38 Freakling wrote: he had enough time to harass the probe away; or try and just fake pull SCVs. And you gotta build a depot or depot+rax wall on that position on HBR, just a rax would not have been zeal tight.
Bisu is known for good probe micro, you know... For the timing: When the zealot reached the base Mind had just placed the rax.
Anyways, I believe you can block the choke with just one depot placed in the middle. But that would end up in another disadvantage for Mind.
You know, you can just play the game and see, it's not the question of personal beliefs and faith, it's easily verified statement.
On August 16 2015 17:38 Freakling wrote: he had enough time to harass the probe away; or try and just fake pull SCVs. And you gotta build a depot or depot+rax wall on that position on HBR, just a rax would not have been zeal tight.
Bisu is known for good probe micro, you know... For the timing: When the zealot reached the base Mind had just placed the rax.
Anyways, I believe you can block the choke with just one depot placed in the middle. But that would end up in another disadvantage for Mind.
You know, you can just play the game and see, it's not the question of personal beliefs and faith, it's easily verified statement.
No, one supply depot cannot block zealots on HBR,
This is terran wall on main:
What version of HBR is that? It's none that I have, and it is not the one Mind/Bisu played on either. Note how the cliff edge at the choke looks different in this screenshot from the game: In this version, one depot is tight (this other cliff edge has an unpassable edge which is one subtile wider than the other one). Also, mind would have had a faster rax with the six SCVs he pulled mining instead.
There you have it. Now, do you wanna hold your breath 'til you're blue in the face and accuse me of 'lying' again, even though I can't think of any reason why I'd care enough to do so? Lolz.
On August 15 2015 00:29 Greg_J wrote: Great to see so much discussion. It's a sure sign thats things are exciting and people care about Broodwar once more.
+1. Doesn't hurt that SSL11's been really interesting so far.
On August 14 2015 20:30 LaStScan wrote: 7 7 cannot be countered by making a bunker because it's too fast. Zealot gets into terran's base before barracks finishes.
Really? Well, okay then, let's check it out to be certain. I'll use Sayle's cast for the timings:
Looking at Game 5, where Bisu did the 7/7, Game start is at 1:48:16 in the cast. At 1:50:56, Bisu's zealot takes its first swing at an scv in Mind's base.
So, with 7/7, it was 2:40 from game start to 1st zealot in Mind's base, wreaking havoc.
So the question then becomes, will you have a rax done by 2:40? In Game 5 Mind didn't, but Mind pulled 6 scvs to go and kill the gate, and also early-scouted.
So what about the other games? Did Mind have a rax up by 2:40 in those?
Looking at it on the cast, it seems so. Mind beat that time several times in the series, and I don't think he was constantly going 8-rax/9-depot every game or anything.
Game 1: Game start at 12:37 on the cast, rax done at 15:20. That's 2:43 into the game for the rax to get done, but that's with Mind putting a refinery up first to block Bisu's attempted gas steal, slightly delaying his rax.
Game 2: Game start at 36:22, rax done at 38:53. Rax up at 2:31 into the game.
Game 3: Game start at 58:01. We don't see the rax finish, but at 1:00:38, the 1st marine pops. So, 1st marine done at 2:37. A marine takes 15 seconds to build on Fastest game speed. So 2:22 for the rax to finish from game start, at latest.
Game 4: Game start at 1:22:59. Again, we don't see the rax finish, but at 1:25:39 the 1st marine pops. 1st marine done at 2:40 into the game, so the rax was done at 2:25, at latest.
Judging from the results, does seem like you can have your rax done before the 7/7 zel shows up, without any exotic BOs.
Far as getting a bunker done by around the same time as the zel shows up... a bunker takes 19 seconds to build on Fastest. So the rax would have to be done by no later than 2:21, in order to get the bunker up by 2:40/when the 1st zel shows up.
To be fair, in no game did Mind get the rax up as fast as that, but he did come very close in Games 3 and 4 (missing by 1 and 4 seconds, respectively).
So, I dunno. 7/7 is fast, but maybe not THAT fast? And non-speed zealots walk slow.
Do Mind's rax timings pretty much match up with folks' personal experiences with the 7/7 build, both as an executor of it and/or as someone playing against it? Does it remain fair to say that your rax usually completes before the zealot shows up in your base? (though I'm not sure why it'd be any different).
Someone else in the thread complained of the 7/7 build being 'imba', but it doesn't seem quite fast enough to be that. Maybe it is if you also send 4 probes to kill the scvs?
And of course, mass-pulling scvs and then FAILING to keep the zealot from popping is the worst of all possible worlds.
Another thought: HBR does seem to have a slightly longer rush distance between bases than some maps (like Blue Storm). Not sure this really matters, since the probe gets sent out so early it has enough time to get to a pretty close proxy spot to the enemy main anyway... but still, thoughts/experiences on that welcome.
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
I love what you did it in that game, threatening the gas steal so that SPX built a refinery to block, delaying his rax. Evil.
Timing it, your zel got into the north end of his base at 2:38, i.e. 'bout as fast as Bisu did on HBR.
If T isn't delayed in making his rax by pulling scvs and/or blocking the gas steal, and is going 11-rax, he starts his rax @1:26–1:28, as you say. It's then done at 2:16–2:18 (on Fastest).
(SPX didn't start his 'rax until 1:42, btw).
1st marine w/11-rax is out at 2:31-2:33, i.e. just before the 1st zel arrives. Heck, you can even have a bunker in time... though it's very close.
Scan, do you think going bunker could be a viable alternative way to deal with it, instead of immediately attacking the gate? Or do you feel that pulling mass scvs and killing the gate is just way better, even accounting for something like Bisu's 4 probes harass of the scvs? Pulling the 1-2 additional scvs over the normal 6 takes care of that fully?
Here's what I did in TLC #4 against spx in the final. The gateway is extremely fast for 77 proxy gate that you cannot follow up by making rax at 11 supply(game timer 1:26~28).
While you are trying to hold the first zealot with 1 marine, the 2nd zealot will come very soon. You will not have time to make a factory. You can afford to buld a factory, but you probably have to skip 2nd supply depot and let a few scvs die to the enemy's zealot.
I, as a Terran player, would like to secure taking down the gateway with 7~8 scvs and make a barracks at 13~14(probably 14) supply. When the barracks starts at 14, terran should stop the scv production and start the gas immidiately because once protoss admits that the zealot will not come out on time, he will just cancel the zealot production and try to build a pylon and a gateway in protoss's base ASAP.
I love what you did it in that game, threatening the gas steal so that SPX built a refinery to block, delaying his rax. So evil.
Timing it, your zel got into the north end of his base at 2:38, i.e. 'bout as fast as Bisu did on HBR.
If the T isn't delayed in making his rax by pulling scvs and/or blocking the gas steal, and is going 11-rax, he starts his rax @1:26–1:28, as you say. It's then done at 2:16–2:18, on Fastest.
(SPX didn't start his 'rax until 1:42, btw).
1st marine w/11-rax is out at 2:31-2:33, i.e. just before the 1st zel arrives. Heck, you can even have a bunker in time... though it's very close.
Scan, do you think going bunker could be a viable alternative way to deal with it, instead of immediately attacking the gate? Or do you feel that pulling mass scvs and killing the gate is just way better, even accounting for something like Bisu's 4 probes harass of the scvs? Pulling the 1-2 additional scvs over the normal 6 takes care of that fully?
No... If the terran player wants to lose the game, then let him be. I won't stop because it's his game. Anyways, you can make a wall before the zealot gets in(highly impossible) and where the maps that protoss cannot cannon rush after the zealot. 99% of the game, terran players will just take down the gateway. Please do not ask me additional questions after this post. I've explained about this previous post, ty.
update: Mind vs Free, 3rd place match. Free tries the same proxy cheese vs Mind on HBR that Bisu did.
Mind beats it with a wall-in, of all things, and then goes and takes down the proxy gate (which he didn't scout early enough to pre-emptively take out... not that uncommon a situation).
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Mind 
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